Watercooling setup runs hotter than my SK6, help!

[Mad_Capr]

I've done something wrong, but I need some suggestions. My watercooling setup is running 3 degrees celsius hotter than my air cooled setup with an SK6.

Please give some suggestions that may help cool things down.

Here is my setup:

Danger Den Maze 2 waterblock lapped
Arctic Silver II
Homemade resorvoir with 295gph MaxiJet pump
BE Cooling 6" x 5" radiator
Water mixture is 85% distilled water and 15% Prestone

Here are my thoughts:
Maybe the block isn't making good contact?
Maybe the water is moving too fast?

The waterblock, hoses and the radiator feel slightly warm to the touch so I'm pretty sure that the block is making good contact. The water is moving very fast, though. So maybe the radiator doesn't have enough chance to cool it off. I'm sure water wetter would help, but even without it I should be running cooler than this.

With the same overclock, here are my max cpu temps:

SK6 with sunon fan: 45-46c
Watercooled setup: 48-49c

[Warlord2]

yes thats about 10c too hot


is your block warm?

how are you getting those temps?

how is your airflow through the radiator?

how tight is your block to the motherboard?

did you try reseating the block?

waterflow should not be a problem

using Artic Silver 2?

did you lap it flat?

[Mad_Capr]

Yes, the block is warm.

I used the same method to get the temps during both setups (motherboard monitor)

No, I haven't tried reseating the block yet.

Airflow through the radiator isn't that good.

Yes, I lapped it flat and used Arctic Silver II.

[badgers]

I would think that the water is moving way to fast.
The dwell time the water has in the radiator is just to small to release the heat. I would think that maybe a surfactant added to the water would be better.
I do not think that prestone has a higher specific heat then water.
I also do not think that prestone works as a surfactant.

[Mad_Capr]

You are right, Prestone doesn't cool as well as water. It was added to prevent corrosion of the metal.

[Warlord2]

Im running a 350 gph with 95% distilled water and 5% water wetter


people have ran tests on waterflow and they said that it wont realy affect proformace unless your go over 1000gph


also do you have any pockets of air?

make sure you bleed all the air out of the waterblock before you put it on the cpu

try shacking the block and the radiator

[badgers]

the water flow rate is dependant on the radiator. a smaller radiator can't handle a high water flow. a large radiator can handle much higher water flow.

it is impossible to say that all water cooling systems can take XX amount of flow unless they all have the same radiator and air flow across the radiator.

to improve the radiator, you could try upping the air flow. HTH

[portorock]

my h2o setup was running warm until I moved the radiator to get much better airflow across it. The intake was facing the wall, I moved it away and dropped 3~5 degrees. Good luck

[Mad_Capr]

Okay, I have now remounted the waterblock with a fresh coat of arctic silver II. I also moved my radiator to improve the air flow.

Result: no improvement

I just don't understand this. It is very frustrating. I know this radiator isn't as good as the cube models, but still! It doesn't make sense that a watercooling setup runs hotter than my old air cooled setup.

Even if I bought a cube radiator and it improved my temps by 4 degrees celsius, I would be right back to the temps I was getting with air cooling!

Somebody help me before I beat the crap out of my computer.

[ocman]

Can I have your SK6?

[Warlord2]

what fan are you using to cool the radiator?


can you give us a idea of how hot your water is?


also you can try unscrewing the inlet and outlet on the maze just a little

dangerden has been screwing thim in a little too far and restrict waterflow


and how far are the springs compressed on the maze?

like I said your running around 10c too hot and you may not be making a good contact with the die

[Mad_Capr]

I'm using two 80mm Sunons on the radiator. I think they push around 40cfm each. I plan on getting a nice 120mm fan soon.

I don't think the maze 2 is restricting waterflow. The water is moving very fast.

The springs are compressed to about half an inch.

I'm not sure how to tell how hot my water is.. It is a closed system. The tubes on the radiator feel warm to the touch. The hoses feel slightly warm.

I think I am making good connection with the core. When I remounted the block, the core had left its imprint on the block. I could see the imprint of all four sides of the core and also the writing off the top. This was due to the arctic silver II residue.

[Warlord2]

ok I you need alot better fans thin 80mm


your radiator is holding you back

get maybe a house fan on it and see if your temps drop at all


your compression is pretty good so you have good contact


get 2 131 ys tech fans run thim at 7v one push and one pull

[portorock]

I've got a 120mm pulling air but an 80mm pushing. I still have to order the other one and my temps are stable with a full load @ 44. Never been able to push it higher than that. Idle is 33~35

[Mad_Capr]

Thanks for your help. I'll order two 120mm fans and some Redline Water Wetter.

Will keep you updated....

[Cu]

Get the prestone out of there and add some water wetter. My 1.4TBird runs consistantly at 19 degrees cels. Maze2 waterblock, aqua coil radiator and a CPUFX duel pump.

[Warlord2]

dang Cu where do you live?


my room temps never even gets that low.

[Naeleros]

I think you're chasing the same red herring that I did for awhile.

You show in your system details that its an AMD processor. I assume that its a Thunderbird? Not an MP, right?

If so.. then it doesn't have an 'on die' thermosistor<sp?>. Instead it uses a socket style. This temperature probe is susceptible to various tricks including air movement across it. The difference in temps you're likely seeing is that there is now less or even no movement of air across the temp probe underneath your processor.

You can easily test this by placing a fan near your block from the side and see if your temps drop. You can be assured that the actual core temp won't be lowered even tho you are seeing a difference with the air blowing from the side.

I chased this little problem around for quite awhile before it became apparent : You can't compare water cooling and air cooling temps if you're only using a motherboard socket probe to test the temps.

You should check www.swiftnets.com (Swifttech) for more info. They did quite a few tests to prove out this theory and explain it better than I.

Moral of the story : No matter what your probe says.. your watercooler is significantly better than your air setup. If you really have to know.. purchase a real probe (Digital Doc, etc).

James

[Warlord2]

water cooling will never be better thin air cooling with only 2 80mm fans on a cube



I used to have no air across my cpu as well and temps where still in the 40c.....

I feel once he gets rid of all that heat his temps will go way down

[Naeleros]

To that I say "Psshaw". Think about it for a minute.. you're saying that 2x80mm fans aren't as good as 1x60mm fan?

His temps are better than air cooling.. I'm sure. But.. his method of testing those temps is flawed.

James

Originally posted by Warlord2
water cooling will never be better thin air cooling with only 2 80mm fans on a cube



I used to have no air across my cpu as well and temps where still in the 40c.....

I feel once he gets rid of all that heat his temps will go way down

[joshiieeii]

ok, noone has asked you what your Ambient air temps are (that I have seen). You must consider that variable too, b/c if you have 20C ambient system vs. a 40C ambient system, the lower temp is going to be able to cool your CPU better.

From what I understand you can't cool your water below ambient unless you have chilled water or a pelt.

[Mad_Capr]

Well, since I'm running my case open at the moment and the radiator is on the floor outside the computer, I'd say ambient temp is about 25 degrees celsius.

[joshiieeii]

Originally posted by Mad_Capr
Well, since I'm running my case open at the moment and the radiator is on the floor outside the computer, I'd say ambient temp is about 25 degrees celsius.

Well considering all the above I would guess you need more air flow through your Radiator. I have about 235 CFM going through mine. I got it for $14 shipped. It big and a bit loud though.

[The Overclocker]

i dont know if this has been brought up but is the water entering the bottem of the radiator? make sure it is

[Mad_Capr]

Originally posted by joshiieeii


Well considering all the above I would guess you need more air flow through your Radiator. I have about 235 CFM going through mine. I got it for $14 shipped. It big and a bit loud though.

Not sure what your setup is, but I'm assuming you know that you can't add cfm when using more than one fan on a single radiator. In other words, having a 135cfm fan and a 100cfm fan attached to the same radiator does not equal 235cfm of air movement across the radiator's surface. Even if you stack two 108cfm fans on top of each other, the air still moves at 108cfm.

However, this doesn't negate the positive effects of having one fan push and one fan pull air through a radiator. It is beneficial because you increase the chances of getting the maximum cfm across all areas of the radiator.

[joshiieeii]

heh, here is a thread about my case mod for my 235 CFM fan mod

Click here (http://forums.overclockers.ws/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36346) Chk it out you will see what I am talking about, its just one fan BTW. :D

[Mad_Capr]

Originally posted by joshiieeii
heh, here is a thread about my case mod for my 235 CFM fan mod

Click here (http://forums.overclockers.ws/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36346) Chk it out you will see what I am talking about, its just one fan BTW. :D

hahah, insane man.

[joshiieeii]

Originally posted by Mad_Capr


hahah, insane man.

How did you know my middle name!! haha. This fan is da shiz nit though, it really pushes some air.

[Mad_Capr]

Yeah, I'll say.. 235cfm could knock some computers over. hahah!

For those who air cool, imagine funneling that thing into an all copper heatsink like the SK6. That would be a nice test.

BTW, any chance I can use your flag in my profile? Nice job on it.

[joshiieeii]

Originally posted by Mad_Capr
Yeah, I'll say.. 235cfm could knock some computers over. hahah!

For those who air cool, imagine funneling that thing into an all copper heatsink like the SK6. That would be a nice test.

BTW, any chance I can use your flag in my profile? Nice job on it.

Hah, if you have ever felt the power of a Vornado house fan, this fan I have on my puter is as powerful as one of those if not better.:cool: If you guys want one, BGMicro (http://www.bgmicro.com/product.htm) has them for $8.95, $14 shipped.

You can use my flag if your profile, BUT you have to put it on your own webpage, I dunno if my site likes remote linking yet.

[Mad_Capr]

Actually, you can upload the avatar to the overclockers.com website.

Thanks!

[SteenkyBastage]

just backing up what was already said, but when i dont have airflow over my waterblock, my load temps are up to 4 or 5C higher than when i have airflow over the waterblock (in MBM).

another thing is that when putting a probe touching the core itself, i get lower temps than MBM (another 4 to 5C) with my maze waterblock. i have to assume that this is due to the software compensating (for the air from a HSF?) somehow.

with no airflow over my block, i get MBM reading of 37C tops under load. however my probe touching the side of the core tops out at around 32.2C (converted, highest i've seen my probe get is 89.9F, i think i calculated that right).

[Mad_Capr]

Well, even if it is true that the temps are affected by air flow. I still think 49c max load is too high for a watercooled system.

Even though I only have two 80mm fans on a small radiator, I still think the temps should be lower.

Right now I am running my 1.33ghz tbird @ 1.53ghz with the core voltage at 1.85.

I am pretty happy with that overclock, but the fact remains that I'm not happy with my temps.

I've added Redline water wetter now and the temps are still the same.

I tried to find a valve today at a few hardware stores, but nobody carried anything that would fit. I've ordered two 120mm fans that push 108cfm each. Hopefully, the fans should arrive early this week. If that doesn't help, I don't know what to do next. I'd rather not have to spend $50 on a cube radiator.

[SteenkyBastage]

i hear ya, those cubes do cost a bit... i did however go for the cube and am happy. i only use one 117CFM 120mm fan, with a 3w radioshack rheo (turned all the way down). it's real quiet, and only 1 to 2C higher (MBM) reading than when i have the 120 running full speed.

i'm sorry, i misunderstood, i thought you said your temps were 45C. that would make me guess your temps under load would be equivelant to 40C or less in aircooling terms.

i'd feel fairly confident saying your actual temps are likely to be lower than your MBM reading are when watercooling. if you get a chance, try sticking a small fan to blow air over the waterblock. my money's on lower temp readings when you do that.

[fuzzba11]

See my Waterchiller Adventure post, it might help you get your temps down...what temp is your water??

[Mad_Capr]

um, holy sh*t

I just held a cheap (and I mean cheap) 80mm fan about 5 inches away from the block. This fan probably doesn't blow more than 26-30cfm. I didn't even try to aim it under the block. I let it blow right on top of the waterblock from 5 inches away.

In less than 3 minutes, my cpu temp (according to motherboard monitor) dropped 5 degrees celsius!!!!

Talk about some crappy sensor readings!!! I guess I'm doing better than I thought I was.

I'm tempted to get a DigitalDoc now so that I can find out what my temps really are.

[SteenkyBastage]

glad to hear that helped!

[Naeleros]

Originally posted by Mad_Capr
um, holy sh*t

I just held a cheap (and I mean cheap) 80mm fan about 5 inches away from the block. This fan probably doesn't blow more than 26-30cfm. I didn't even try to aim it under the block. I let it blow right on top of the waterblock from 5 inches away.

In less than 3 minutes, my cpu temp (according to motherboard monitor) dropped 5 degrees celsius!!!!

Talk about some crappy sensor readings!!! I guess I'm doing better than I thought I was.

I'm tempted to get a DigitalDoc now so that I can find out what my temps really are.

Heh.. see? We could have avoided all this if you would have went and looked at the test data at www.swiftnets.com . Lesson of the day 'Don't compare watercooled and aircooled temps when only using a motherboard sensor to test with.'

Even though you have found your answer.. you should go read the test data. It is very informative. Did you know that you're not actually looking at even the temperature of the air under your processor? Its actually derived with a mathematical formula. Did you know that not all motherboard manufacturers use the same formula? hahahahaha

They're worthless... it always makes me chuckle when I see people comparing temps now (using that sensor as the basis).

James

[Mad_Capr]

I feel like a fool for posting temps in my signature now...

There are a couple of scary aspects to this revelation.

First, I now have to admit that I have no clue what my temps are. According to Swiftech's research, my readings could be off by 13 degrees celsius or more.

Second, when I had my air cooled setup going, I cut 2 holes in the side panel of my case and had 2 80mm fans blowing RIGHT ON TOP of my heatsink/socket area!!! That means that the readings I got from the motherboard sensor were WAY OFF. This explains why I was unstable at certain overclocks before. The temp was reading 46-48c, but most likely it was at least 10 degrees higher in reality.

Third, since the temp sensor is so screwed up, I can no longer count on my bios to shut down the system at 60 degrees celsius in the event of a cooling system failure. By the time the sensor reads 60 degrees celsius, it could very well be 70 degrees or higher in reality, thereby frying my chip like a pancake!

I would suggest that a sticky post be made in this forum to inform others on the inaccurate results of motherboard sensors. I always heard they were inaccurate, but now that I know all the facts about HOW inaccurate they are, it really makes me wonder how many people are close to frying there chips...