Water Wetter or other mixtures?

[fuzzba11]

Does anyone know if water wetter is worth it? Apparently it helps in heat transfer and stop corrosion. But it goes for like $13 +s/h. Is there an equal/better/cheaper solution to these problems?

[Warlord2]

water wetter was worth it for me=]


it doesnt transfer heat better thin water but it does cool down the water a little and does stop corrosion


but if you dont have it or dont have the money you can use radiator fluid

[Crappy]

You can find Water Wetter at PEPBoys Auto store for $6.

Thats if there is one by you.

[fuzzba11]

I'd prefer it if I could order so I wouldn't have to get off my as5 ;)

I'll look around online, though, thx for the response.

[mechsiah]

I have heard (so don't shoot the messenger) that you can achieve a similar effect by using a drop or two of dish soap. Evidently the soap breaks down the surface tension of the water in the same way that water wetter does.

Do not try this without confirming it elsewhere though! I could be talking out my azz. (My most reliable source!)

: ]

[Crappy]

Originally posted by mechsiah
I have heard (so don't shoot the messenger) that you can achieve a similar effect by using a drop or two of dish soap. Evidently the soap breaks down the surface tension of the water in the same way that water wetter does.

Do not try this without confirming it elsewhere though! I could be talking out my azz. (My most reliable source!)

: ]

That will work, but there will be nothing to stop corrosion or some type of lifeform from growing inside your cooling rig.:D

[Monaco]

I never really understood the point of adding stuff to your water- If it is a closed system, where is the contamination of growth going to come from? Assuming you wash all yer tubes etc first. If it is an open system, do you want to be breathing that s**t when it evaporates? IDK, I'd think dumping in some isopropyl and running it open for an hour every month outta get the job done- it's worked for me so far.

[tbirdkiri]

has any one ever just tried distilled water?

[Monaco]

has any one ever just tried distilled water?

That's what I'm talking about! Start clean, it stays clean. If you can get it, deionized water is even better-

[tbirdkiri]

see i knew u guys were smart
nothin to cause corosion.

[/\/\isanthrope]

if you have mixed metals, especially aluminum and copper, you will get corrosion.

Unless you put it together in a sterile clean-room, you will have some sort of contamination... which will lead to the growth of something. Especially if you have an open system. That's why I won't use a 'bong'. I'd think it would be too much of a hassle to clean it all the time.

Sure, use distilled water, but also use water-wetter... in a closed system this should prevent you from having to clean it for quite a while.

an ounce of prevention... or, in this case, watter-wetter :)

(I sound like a frickin' salesman)
dan

[r0ckstarbob]

no such thing as perfectly distilled water or perfectly de-ionized water outside a labrotory. elevate the temperature a few degrees above room temp and you'll get it. if not from your water, then from your metal. remember, in heat transfer, we're passing temperature from one side of the metal to the other side. other microscopic things come with it. the minute any of your water hits the air, it's contaminated. temperature amplifies all that.

if you're getting lower temps in your radiator then you're getting slightly better temps in your waterblock and everywhere else, even if your thermometer isn't registering it. you're right, waterwetter breaks up the surface tention which allows water to transfer heat better... it absorbs heat better. up to 15 or 20% better if you have the right ratio.

antifreeze is probably the worst thing you could put in your system. it's like liquid styrofoam. it does nothing except insulate water increasing the boiling point and lowering the freezing point. antifreeze is made of glycol which is a silicone, which is also why it's good at preventing corrosion and eliminating bacteria growth... it coats the inside of your system. anyone know of any petrolium product that transmits temperature real well? not me. i do however know it's used to insulate pretty well. antifreeze is good because it raises the boiling point which is the major concern for automobiles. the glycol is good to lower the freezing point too, but only as a side effect. it insulates both ways. run your car on nothing but antifreeze and you'll burn your car up before you reach the supermarket.

waterwetter is good stuff. it will also coat the inside of your system preventing corrosion and bacterial growth, but not with glycol. i had some questions so emailed them. from the word of the manufacturer, using it in a watercooled system like we're using, 3% will be the ideal ratio when used with either distilled or de-ionized water.

[/\/\isanthrope]

Originally posted by r0ckstarbob
remember, in heat transfer, we're passing temperature from one side of the metal to the other side. other microscopic things come with it.


uhhh... :p

[r0ckstarbob]

point being we're not really running a totally closed system. and granted, it's not alot, but its there. it's why piercers use an autoclave to clean metal. the only way to really do it is to heat it up so the metal expands and a thorough cleaning can happen. in fact, its the only way to completely disinfect metal.

[fuzzba11]

Alright, well, I've ordered a bottle of Water Wetter, so that problem should be solved :p

[Monaco]

Hang on a second, r0ckstarbob- Are you trying to tell us that microbes will move THROUGH the metal of our waterblocks and infect our systems?

Well, 3 years of Adv Biology tells me that's pretty bogus. I don't care how soft copper or Al is, no bug or bacterium is going to magically pass thru 1/4" of solid metal. If something is ALREADY inside the open chamber of the block, than yes, you'll get some growth.

I ran a few genetic classrom experiments back in the day, fruit flies etc.- our petrie dishes of agar and suger water didn't grow all kinds of fuzz and mold after 3 months of open-air exposure, this was in a low-level clean room. Decontam prcedure there was basically wash hands, take off shoes, and don't sneeze.:)

I know for a fact that after 30 mins of running heated Isopropyl through my system ain't nothing gonna grow in there. 8 months later, it still looks brand new.

As for the suface tension thing- yeah you are totally right on that. Course I thought that was only important in cooling towers- lower surface tension equals smaller droplet size equals more surface area equals better cooling. and then you'd be breathing it, UGH. I don't want any coating of any kind between my block and the water, that's just one more mechanical junction to worry about.

Well sorry if I sounded mean or flamey, you are right on all counts but on a technical level- we ain't dealing with NASA-level clean rooms here, we have TONS of room for leeway. A bit of paramecia won't hurt anything.

Oh and to beat the galvanic corrosion problem- change your water monthly. Hell, to beat any goo problem just change the water.

Of course an ounce of prevention..... If it worries you at all, then hell yeah, dump some water wetter in there. Just understand that it is not imperative.

[r0ckstarbob]

nope. sorry. didn't know where my brain was at. didn't actually mean that you're passing it through the metal, but did mean that without disinfecting it, your metal is dirty and with a temp increase of only a few degrees, you'll get bacteria growth.

running isopropyl through the system is a good idea once in a great while, but it's only the first of several steps that should be taken.

theres been more then one example of folks not treating their systems properly and having some VERY detrimental effects due to bacterial growth. it may not happen in a month or two months, but it will happen without taking the proper precautions.

point being, a bit of paramecium will eat your system alive one day. it IS going to be harmful.

i'd rather have an agent in the liquid perpetually eating whatever little bacteria matures as it matures then risk ANYTHING having to do with my system.

shortcuts will kill your box in a flash.

most of us dread the thought of changing the water if we don't have to. every single time you do it you have to proof the system and then reinstall it to guarantee a solid installation. a very time consuming event to say the least. proof the system for 24 hours and then install it? thats alot of downtime for your system. not to mention providing added wear and tear on your hoses. and at least for me, theres way too much at stake to make a mistake. measure twice and cut once. no way am i taking any shortcuts with a process like that.

the percentage of performance increase in PC's vary from 1-2 degrees to as many as 10. this variable easily has as much to do with the various watercooling setups and varying ratios used as anything. regardless, it's a performance increase - in addition to preventing wear and tear on your pumps and blocks AND preventing bacterial growth just by adding a couple of ounces to your system...

you're saving youself a world of work and effort, improving performance, while simultaneously minimizing the chance for damage occuring to either your watercooling setup or your system. in my minds eye this stuff is considered bare bones preventive maintenance and good common sense.

no, i didn't take it as flaming. all is good. sorry for the lack of clarity on my part.

here, check it

http://www.redlineoil.com/redlineoil/wwti.htm

peace

RSB

[VashTheStampede]

Oi, I work at Pep Boys and I wouldn't recommend Water Wetter to anyone. Few of our employees there own/race trucks, and they use ProBlend instead of Water Wetter, they swear by the stuff. Drag strip racing also uses ProBlend, as I'm sure several other organizations use it too.

Since my water system is still incomplete at the moment, I cannot give any test results of ProBlend over Water Wetter. The ProBlend stuff is a little more expensive though, but like I said, our employees at Pep Boys swear by it.

~RT~

[Kibler]

Ok I am at the http://www.pro-blend.com web site and from what I can gather ProBlend is an engine additive, not made for radiators. Am I just not seeing it?

Where can you get Water Wetter online? Cant find it for under $18 with shipping.

Kibler

[fuzzba11]

I got mine from the L.A.P.D. ...the Los Angeles Performance Division :rolleyes: Go to their website (http://www.TheLAPD.com) and you can find the stuff there for 8 bucks, and shipping is overnight no matter what. Still, a better deal than I found elsewhere.

*Warning* This stuff STINKS!! It's not rotten egg type horrible, but it does smell really bad, if you have an open system and put your nose up to it, it hits you hard. You'll be able to smell it when you enter the room, too, if you put enough of it in, but stop noticing it after a minute or two.

[VashTheStampede]

http://www.pro-blend.com/tech4032.html

Not sure if that is the stuff or not, found it at another site for like $12 I think.

~RT~

[Monaco]

Right on, rockstar, I see what you are saying. I suppose my system is a bit atypical- I use an huge open reservoir and no radiatior, and I am constantly fiddling with the water. Almost daily I replace it, by always siphoning off hot water and adding ice. I love to mess with it, and I sort of assume everyone else is like me. If you are trying to run a closed, never-needs-adjustment type of system, some prevention from growth sure can't hurt.
So go for it!

I don't know about a 24 hour test between adjustments, tho- I've never had anything that even seemed like it was even thinking about a leak; maybe I've just been lucky so far but I trust my equipment. My only worry is condensation from the ice:):)

[r0ckstarbob]

Originally posted by RedneckTech
http://www.pro-blend.com/tech4032.html

Not sure if that is the stuff or not, found it at another site for like $12 I think.

~RT~

hm. this stuff sounds great. anyone try it in their watercooled setup yet to see what the effect is?

i'm on the hunt for the MSDS form on this stuff and or anything other then the promotional advertisement junk on why it seems to work so well. it's got some pretty fantastic claims. i need to see some numbers to back it up

[VashTheStampede]

Originally posted by r0ckstarbob


hm. this stuff sounds great. anyone try it in their watercooled setup yet to see what the effect is?

i'm on the hunt for the MSDS form on this stuff and or anything other then the promotional advertisement junk on why it seems to work so well. it's got some pretty fantastic claims. i need to see some numbers to back it up

Never thought to look up the MSDS for it. Your right, couldn't find Lubrication Dynamics, the manufacturer, anywhere on MSDS. I've put in a request for the 40 Below MSDS.

~RT~

[r0ckstarbob]

cool beans. me too.

funny thing. either this stuff is brand new and nobodys had a chance to run it yet, i'm using the wrong terminology in my searches, or this is snake oil. i can't find any data sheets, no numbers, and the only reviews i've found is the ONE review they have on their website. although there are a few testimonials there is remarkably little comment on this product as far as i can tell, though there seems to be plenty of promotion about it.

i dunno. lets see what comes back from these guys in the way of a msds or something similar if possible. would love to see some of the science behind this miracle. would also help so we could determine if this product only works in very hot environments or if it will work for our purposes as well.

[VashTheStampede]

Though Lubrications Dynamics is (C) 1998 and with all the products they have out, they should of had at least one MSDS form.

That's the only thing that really worries me. I go back to work later today, I'll see if they have an MSDS on file, though they don't carry the stuff in store.

~RT~

[r0ckstarbob]

rock on crouton. keep us posted. stuffs good to know.

[Robbie]

I don't have a water cooled system yet but, I changed the coolent out in my motor cycle the other day cuz I found out that if I use AUTOMOTIVE coolent in it, it would eat away at the aluminum. SOOO I got some motorcycle coolent cuz that stuff is designed not to eat away aluminum.

Hope this helps

Rob

[r0ckstarbob]

Hi r0ckstarbob,
#1: 40 Below is not an anti-freeze. It is a chemical compound that enhances
cooling.
#2: The MSDS tells you nothing about the content.
#3: Try it....it's only $25 and I'll give you a further discount to $20.

Skip Higginbotham
Lubrication Dynamics



At 02:27 AM 9/28/01 -0700, you wrote:
>pro-blend 40-below antifreeze treatment
>
>i am supercooling my computer to subzero temperatures and need a
>coolant with good heat transfer properties, a low viscocity, and a
>freezing point of somewhere below -30F.
>
>will your product hack it?
>
>please send AT LEAST an MSDS Form on this and if you can - some
>sort of explination on how this miracle juice seems to do its stuff.
>even some testing benchmarks would be incredibly helpful. i can't
>find any facts or any science behind what you're doing, just infrequent
>and sporadic commentary and alot of advertisements. i'm
>supercooling a computer, i can't afford to use your product just
>because folks say it works. i already know what it's suppose to do. i
>can read the ads. why is it doing it? whats the process. will it work
>for my applications? what if i cut it with Methanol? What if i cut it
>with Hydrogen Peroxide? what if i cut the water with Methanol and
>use that with your antifreeze additive? why should i consider using
>your product instead of waterwetter or purple ice? what is it made of?
>is it lethal or toxic? will it react poorly with copper? how about copper
>and aluminum in the same coolant line? i would love to use your
>product and write a review about it, but theres no way i'm even going
>to be able to consider using it until i know whats in it and the principle
>behind it's process. i'm not looking for trade secrets mind you but i do
>need to know whats happening, why it's happening, how it applies to
>what we're doing here at LHI, and how it measures up next to it's
>competitors and against conventional methods of antifreeze/water
>mixtures.
>
>thanks in advance for whatever technical data you're able to provide
>me with. it's incredibly helpful.
>
>r0ckstarbob
>LanguageHammer Graphic Industries Intl.
>

Hi r0ckstarbob,

#1: 40 Below is not an anti-freeze. It is a chemical compound that enhances
cooling.
#2: The MSDS tells you nothing about the content.
#3: Try it....it's only $25 and I'll give you a further discount to $20.

Skip Higginbotham
Lubrication Dynamics

[r0ckstarbob]

how come he didn't answer any of my questions?

-
Thanks Skip

I certainly appreciate the offer for that $20 discount
and will probably take you up on it - but my
concerns are not financial. they are safety
questions and they are engineering questions. i
really need to know these things so i can continue
with my research and IF i'm going to use your
product like i would like to be able to, i need to
know why your product is doing what it's doing. I
need the MSDS to insure my kids aren't going to die
of cancer from it, or i don't accidentally explode it,
or put it in the wrong container, or pour it over my
bake potato thinking it's gravy. Could you please
send me a detailed MSDS on this product as i
believe you're required to provide one by law
anyhow? i have to have those references and facts
so when other people research the things that I'M
doing, they will be able to see why i came to the
conclusions i did. it's also going to help me if and
when i need to troubleshoot this design and
increase the performance. customer testimonial will
not be enough. i need some facts.

i know it's a chemical process that supposedly
increases the heat transfer properties. that
doesn't tell me anything. i make coffee every
morning. thats a chemical process too. chemical
processes are everywhere and aren't in themselves
responsible for changing the heat transfer
properties of water necessarily. I need to know
why your product is working the way it allegedly
works.

RedLines Water Wetter works by breaking up the
surface tention. i understand your product doesn't
work that way. HOW DOES IT WORK? i don't need
to know the exact step by step chemical process of
whats happening but i do need a pretty good idea
of the principle behind whats suppose to happen
when i dump this stuff into my coolant. my coolant
sits IDLY at -30F in the reservoir, and my VERY VERY
VERY expensive computer is absolutely DEPENDENT
on that coolant to remain at operating
temperatures. it is critical that i know what is
happening and what to expect. unlike your
standard automobile, i have no room for error.
none - i work with some very extreme
temperatures (as low as -100F). i need the science
behind your product so i can predict its efficiency in
environments that you in your testing, never
considered even possible or reasonable. i need to
know what to expect of it's behavior so i can
compensate and troubleshoot when necessary.
i'm very excited about the possiblity of using your
product. i just need some specifics.

thanks again

r0ckstarbob
LanguageHammer Graphic Industries Intl.

[VashTheStampede]

LOL, I found out nearly nothing today. Actually called MSDS' 1-800 number, they actually had the company listed, but DuraLube was listed under them, no mention of Pro-Blend anywhere in their database according to the woman on the phone. Said they needed a product number before they could go any further, and she gave me a tracking number as well.

~RT~

[MeJa]

Here's a pretty cool recipe using water wetter, destilled water and coolant :)
I'll be giving it a try as soon as i ahve my system up and running
http://www.overclockwatercool.com/coolant.html

[r0ckstarbob]

Originally posted by RedneckTech
LOL, I found out nearly nothing today. Actually called MSDS' 1-800 number, they actually had the company listed, but DuraLube was listed under them, no mention of Pro-Blend anywhere in their database according to the woman on the phone. Said they needed a product number before they could go any further, and she gave me a tracking number as well.

~RT~

strange huh? between that and the fact that this guy tried to give me the run around when i asked him for it... how come i think it's just some guy named Fred in the middle of Kansas who just cooked this stuff up on accident, doesn't exactly know what it is or why it works, but knows it does, didn't go through any of the legalities, and spends all day long in the shed out back tending to his distillery and cranking this stuff out.

i gots a feelin there is no MSDS for this thing.

at any rate, here is the product number for it

4032

http://performanceunlimited.com/sales/oiladditives.html

on a personal note: you know the more i email and the more i look back at my posts, the more i'm getting the feeling that in an effort to avoid confusion and speak clearly and conscisely, i instead come off as something of a jerk or "in your face". which is strange seeing as i'm really not. but even looking back at my last email i sent poor skip... i could see where someone might get the impression that i was. hmmm. this makes me think about my other posts now. how crappy.