View Full Version : Pump failure poll '05
I will be making a poll to be a modern re-do of this (http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?p=1703186). Now, I am mindful of the criticsims of the old one and so, instead of just having members list which pumps they have had fail on them, I will instead make a poll that will have two choices for each brand of pump, one for that pump being used and not failing and one for that pump being used and failing. Here's an example:
1) Eheim: has failed
2) Eheim: has not failed
etc. Unfortunately this will limit the number of pumps to 5 (poll options are limited to ten total) So before I actually make the poll I'd like some input from members regarding which brands of pumps they think should be included in the poll. I want the 5 biggest pump brands (by user volume). So what do you use?
telexen
03-03-05, 08:28 PM
ViaAqua 1300 has been going strong for more than a year and a half now :D
Eheim (1048, 1250)
Hydor/Seltz (L20, L25, L30, L35)
Laing (D4 aka MCP650, DDC aka MCP350)
Iwaki/Panworld (MD series - usually MD-20RZ, also Aquaextreme50z aka MCP600)
Danner (Mag 3, 5, 7)
(not in any specific order)
thats what i could think of off the top of my head
Eheim (1048, 1250)
Hydor/Seltz (L20, L25, L30, L35)
Laing (D4 aka MCP650, DDC aka MCP350)
Iwaki/Panworld (MD series - usually MD-20RZ, also Aquaextreme50z aka MCP600)
Danner (Mag 3, 5, 7)
(not in any specific order)
thats what i could think of off the top of my head
Now that's a good answer, I had assumed that people would offer up only their own brand but you gave me a whole top 5 list. This might make it a bit easier for me, thank you.
no prob - the fact that Iwaki/Panworld also makes the MCP600/AX50z is not a very well-known fact, but it is a fact AFAIK :thup:
only other pump you might want to put on there is the Pondmaster (dunno what mfg.), which is a pretty crappy pump, so it may have a decent failure (or atleast replacement for better pump) rate... i really haven't heard of any other pumps being used for mainstream water cooling
-Justin
Ancient_1
03-03-05, 09:38 PM
The thing is Iwaki and Panworld are not the same company and should not be grouped together. If I remember correctly Panworld pumps are aslo sold as Blueline (and one other I cant think of) and I think Velocity pumps are Laing.
thorilan
03-03-05, 09:42 PM
velocity pumps are custom sealife
the engeneer for blue line was the same that did the iwakis BUT the company that produces is diferent so you can not count them as the same because diferent production lines, methods, raws, suppliers, etc etc
i was just trying to simpify it, as they are similar companies... but the majority of people use iwaki's rather than panworld/blueline pumps
and also, the Tx Velocity pumps are made by Laing Thermotech on all the sites that i've seen it sold at
Ancient_1
03-03-05, 10:04 PM
I honestly think there are too many different brands in use that cant do it with a poll of just five. I would run 2 or even 3 polls to get more pumps in and then combine the results after a couple months results come in and you would have a pretty good baseline to draw conclusions from.
magick_man
03-03-05, 10:47 PM
c-systems too, would be interesting to see how members are coping with this pump
i have had mine for a while now with no problems.
~Magick_Man~
no prob - the fact that Iwaki/Panworld also makes the MCP600/AX50z is not a very well-known fact, but it is a fact AFAIK :thup:
Justin
Can you link me to that fact? I've never heard of it, unless BillA say yes lol....
Phextwin
03-04-05, 02:23 AM
Can you link me to that fact? I've never heard of it, unless BillA say yes lol....
I'm sure you will something familiar on this page ;) (http://www.panworldamericas.com/id1.html)
LOL got it.... cool, nowonder i found it looks just like those iwaki pumps in the beginning altho alot shorter
Five pumps is a pretty restricted list, so I second the call for more than one poll. How about one poll for DC pumps and a second one for AC pumps--that seems like a logical break, at least to me.
Five pumps is a pretty restricted list, so I second the call for more than one poll. How about one poll for DC pumps and a second one for AC pumps--that seems like a logical break, at least to me.
Ok, I now need everyone's top 5 brands of AC pumps and top 5 brands of DC pumps.
smokenjoe
03-04-05, 11:22 AM
DC DDC MCP600 MCP650
AC Hydor, Eheim, Mag 3, ViaAqua, Iwaki
I think you shoud specify what exatly failure means- though for most any kind of failure qualifys- leaks failure to start regularly. Some might consider noise to be a failure too. Might not be needed but could avoid a thread hyjack on other issues.
Good idea!
DC DDC MCP600 MCP650
AC Hydor, Eheim, Mag 3, ViaAqua, Iwaki
I think you shoud specify what exatly failure means- though for most any kind of failure qualifys- leaks failure to start regularly. Some might consider noise to be a failure too. Might not be needed but could avoid a thread hyjack on other issues.
Good idea!
I would classify noise as a failure only if the noise was more that what the pump is supposed to generate, not if it's more than what the end user is willing to put up with. So if a pump is noisy because that's the way they run, it's not a failure. But if the pump is supposed to be silent, and then one day starts making noise, that would be a failure. It's about failure to perform up to spec, not failure to meet your needs.
Ancient_1
03-04-05, 12:45 PM
I would say you would almost have to go with just brands to stay in the 5 pump minimum and each who votes with a failure should state the failure (like the MCP600 had like a 80% failure rate with rev1 but should not reflect on rev2 or AQX 50Zs)
For DC I would suggest
Laing
(MCP650, D4, MCP350, DDC)
Panworld
(MCP600, AQX 50Z)
C-Systems
(Original, MK2, Mag)
Eheim
(HPPS)
Iwaki (RD20, RD30)
For AC
Ehiem
Iwaki
Hydor
Panworld
Laing
Via Aqua
Supreme Mag Drive
Rio
Ok, I've figured out a way around the 10 choice limit, so I can put it all in one poll. I'm going to put the web address for each brand in the poll options so there will be no confusion about who makes what. I've got the www's for the following pump manufacturer's already:
Eheim
Danner
Iwaki
Hydor
Laing
Who else should I add? (Web links would help, I'm having a bit of trouble finding a few)
eobard
you are asking the wrong people
you are going to be terrifically skewed because you have no insight into the failure RATE
all products have failures
some points to ponder:
- an estimate of pumps in use (by specific model)
I would ask how on earth you would presume to compare 'data' between Iwaki (model ?) and PanWorld (separate rev1 from all the rest)
10s (if that !) to 1000s
or C-Systems (ANY model) and the DDC
perhaps 100s to 1000s
- cost difference
is there a point to comparing $30 pumps to $80 ones ? or to $150 Iwakis ?
is there anyone in WCing that does not know that XXX pumps will eventually fail ? but they are CHEAP so failure is accepted
- TIME to failure
a big difference between leaking into the motor a 4 weeks and a worn out impeller bushing after 3 years, no ? but you will have both as failures
- mode of failure
stopping is one thing, leaking another
now I see you are going to aggregate by MAKE ?
jeez
DC: Laing, Iwaki (MD series), Panworld, C-Systems
AC: Iwaki, Hydor, Eheim, Panworld, Danner, Pondmaster
eobard
you are asking the wrong people
you are going to be terrifically skewed because you have no insight into the failure RATE
all products have failures
some points to ponder:
- an estimate of pumps in use (by specific model)
I would ask how on earth you would presume to compare 'data' between Iwaki (model ?) and PanWorld (separate rev1 from all the rest)
10s (if that !) to 1000s
or C-Systems (ANY model) and the DDC
perhaps 100s to 1000s
- cost difference
is there a point to comparing $30 pumps to $80 ones ? or to $150 Iwakis ?
is there anyone in WCing that does not know that XXX pumps will eventually fail ? but they are CHEAP so failure is accepted
- TIME to failure
a big difference between leaking into the motor a 4 weeks and a worn out impeller bushing after 3 years, no ? but you will have both as failures
- mode of failure
stopping is one thing, leaking another
now I see you are going to aggregate by MAKE ?
jeez
I understand you want the poll that takes into account as many factors as it can, that's why I've planned on giving the people the option of listing pumps they have that have not failed as well as pumps they have that have failed. If we just went by pumps that failed then we'd get 10 people saying Pump X failed but wouldn't know if that was 10 out of 100 or 10 out of 12. By putting the option to list pumps that haven't failed I'm hoping to give the numbers more accuracy. As for listing it by make alone, I was going to put a note in the initial thread once I start the poll asking people to list which specific model they use that has failed (or not failed) along with how long it ran before failing (or how long it has run without failing), etc. I'm trying to make a list that will be reasonably complete in the information it contains without overcomplicating things. By creating this thread before actually making the poll I was trying to get input from the members on how to make it the best it could be. Ultimately I don't expect it to be a thread telling people which pumps to choose, I just hope I can give them one more thing to think about that they can add to all of the other pieces of the decision making process when choosing a pump. I know you're very experienced in this area, more so than I am, I'm happy to get any input you have on how to make it better. PM me with any suggestions you've got.
ok, I'll think on it
but I'm thinking of the silk purse/sow's ear analogy
- more variables than can be accomodated by your poll format is the real problem
but the models must be separated, you will see an example of why soon
ok, I'll think on it
but I'm thinking of the silk purse/sow's ear analogy
- more variables than can be accomodated by your poll format is the real problem
I know it's not going to be easy, but it's my hope that we can come up with a thread/poll that's better than nothing.
Jason Hilton
03-04-05, 05:29 PM
I had 2 Hydor L35's fail on me. I'm never buying a Hydor again.
This is not the place to post what works or doesn't, this is the staging ground to set up the most useful thread/poll possible to help people who are looking for a pump. The part about what works and why will come later, for now I just want to make sure we have the best kind of layout for everything.
If enough people feel as BillA does that this kind of a thing won't help regardless of how it's structured then I won't do it. So lemme know how you think this should be done and what it should include.
Jason Hilton
03-04-05, 06:05 PM
Oh, sorry, I didn't read the post's . I just saw the topic and hit reply.
Anyway, I think that having a poll or topic for each manufacturer would be the most helpful, that way instead of looking through a giant list, you would only have to look for your manufacturer.
ls7corvete
03-04-05, 06:33 PM
eobard
you are asking the wrong people
you are going to be terrifically skewed because you have no insight into the failure RATE
all products have failures
some points to ponder:
- an estimate of pumps in use (by specific model)
I would ask how on earth you would presume to compare 'data' between Iwaki (model ?) and PanWorld (separate rev1 from all the rest)
10s (if that !) to 1000s
or C-Systems (ANY model) and the DDC
perhaps 100s to 1000s
- cost difference
is there a point to comparing $30 pumps to $80 ones ? or to $150 Iwakis ?
is there anyone in WCing that does not know that XXX pumps will eventually fail ? but they are CHEAP so failure is accepted
- TIME to failure
a big difference between leaking into the motor a 4 weeks and a worn out impeller bushing after 3 years, no ? but you will have both as failures
- mode of failure
stopping is one thing, leaking another
now I see you are going to aggregate by MAKE ?
jeez
This kind of view makes 99.99% of the posts on forums like this useless. Correct or not the experiences and opinions of others about products is taken into consideration very strongly by most people. That is why most people in the forums are here.
I think the lesser known pumps are the most interest to me. The ones that have little data about reliability and such available, sadly, I think that many of these will be left out.
not about posts,
its about constructing a poll to gather data useful in drawing conclusions
if the inputs are skewed, so will be the 'conclusions'
"I think the lesser known pumps are the most interest to me. The ones that have little data about reliability and such available, sadly, I think that many of these will be left out."
really ?
then consider what including 'all' pumps would do,
would you have 'enough' comments to 'mean' anything ? (we will assume all posters are competent)
you are still at exactly the same point as with no database, not enough info
reliability as assessed by failures posted on a forum ?
if that is sufficient . . . . .
yes, I'm making a fool of myself again
eobard have at it, ignore me, should not have posted
diggingforgold
03-04-05, 08:24 PM
What about conditions?
I look at this like cars. Person A could commute to work and rack up miles on the car. Person B could be an old lady who just runs up to the market once a week.
The conditions would have to be similar per-poll, or else you would be comparing two seemingly identical pumps like you would compare apples to oranges.
eobard have at it, ignore me, should not have posted
No no, you've got valid points. This poll (once done) will be anecdotal and subjective, not really meeting lab quality "double-blind" criteria, so the least we can do is kick around how to tighten it up as much as possible. If it's done right I'm hopeful it will be something that will have longevity. So I don't mind us all kicking around how to make sure it's something that adds to the user's decision making process down the road. As for this:
What about conditions?
I look at this like cars. Person A could commute to work and rack up miles on the car. Person B could be an old lady who just runs up to the market once a week.
The conditions would have to be similar per-poll, or else you would be comparing two seemingly identical pumps like you would compare apples to oranges.
That is something to be noted in the posts that accompany the poll. The conditions under which you use your pump won't be identical to mine which won't be identical to the next person's, so it's on all of us to note the circumstances under which we use our pump as well as any mitigating factors that we feel contributed to it's failure (or lack of).
This will be more than a poll, it'll need good posts to accompany it if it's to be of any use.
So I'm back to the question I asked earlier: Aside from the manufacture's I listed above, can someone shoot me the "www" for other manufacturers?
Bill, YGPM (in a minute....)
Phextwin
03-04-05, 11:44 PM
So I'm back to the question I asked earlier: Aside from the manufacture's I listed above, can someone shoot me the "www" for other manufacturers?
Panworld (http://www.panworld.com.sg/)
Iwaki-Welchem (http://www.iwakiwalchem.com/)
Eheim (http://www.eheim.com/)
Laing (http://www.lainginc.com/)
March (http://www.marchpump.com/)
Sicce (http://www.sicce.com/)
Hydor (http://www.hydor.com)
Danner (http://www.dannermfg.com/)
Couldn't find Via
Can't think of anymore either.
Couldn't find Via
Actually that was the one I was hoping for, I couldn't find it either.
Well, I've had time to process both the suggestions and criticisim about making such a poll and have come to the conclusion that it really isn't feasible to make a poll that has a high degree of accuracy and is functional useful to the common end user who doesn't have a lot of knowledge/experience regarding pumps, and the people who already have a high degree of info about the pumps out in the market don't need one more poll to tell them what they already know. In the least it would take many individual polls, seperate and yet cross linked, to really do this topic justice, and such a bloated system would only confuse newcomers to watercooling more. So unlike the re-do of the old "Rez vs T-line" or "Evap tower vs Radiator" polls this one is not going to happen. Sorry. I appreciate the effort people have put into trying to help get this off the ground. If anyone can think of a clear way to do this PM me, I can't see it happening but I'm still willing to listen.
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