3/8 vers 1/2

[outhouse]

has anyone seen a 3/8 id system best a 1/2" id or come close

searching and knowing 1/2 is the way too go how close can 3/8 come to 1/2"id as too date?

[Sneaky]

the upgrade to 1/2" tubing is very minimal in terms of overall performance, though many agree that it increases the overall flow of the system (and it does)

many people choose to run 1/2" because it is less restrictive to the system, and because is usually more compatible with other components such as pumps & blocks with permanant fittings on them

but as i said before, the overall performance gain of 1/2" is very minimal over 3/8"

[MVC]

A well designed and implemented 3/8" system should best a poorly designed and implemented 1/2" system. But I haven't seen (or heard of) anyone setting out to design and build a poor 1/2" system, so....

It would be interesting to see a comparison of two systems using the "same" water cooling components in identical systems (case, CPU, GPU, PSU, motherboard, memory, etc.) where the only difference was the fittings on the water cooling components and the inner diameter of the tubing connecting them.

[cetoole]

When I first started building my loop, something that I found very interesting was this (http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=10509&highlight=7%2F16) post by Cathar regarding tubing sizes. Now, I use 7/16" ID tubing.

[rogerdugans]

I don't have any links I can post or documented data (since I am horrible at creating and saving such) but I HAVE messed with varying tube sizes a lot in the past.

One of the difficulties in trying to do a direct comparison is that there are variations in many blocks that really can make them run better or worse with a given size of tubing. Determining exactly which blocks and how severe the change is with 3/8 or 1/2 is beyond my abilities....

Nevertheless, I messed with them and can tell you what I have found in general.

Larger tube will get you better performance.
The difference between 1/2 and 3/8 tubing is usually fairly small UNLESS you have a borderline strength pump and loop with a lot of restriction- in either of those cases, 1/2" tube may make a big difference.

If you have a good sized case then 1/2 tube is probably the way to go: room to run tubing and not have tight bends. The larger tube has more potential for max cooling.

If your case is crowded (small or lots of STUFF in it) then 3/8 tube may be better for you: easier to keep bends smooth and gentle which often has an even greater impact on performance in my experience.

[MVC]

When I first started building my loop, something that I found very interesting was this (http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=10509&highlight=7%2F16) post by Cathar regarding tubing sizes. Now, I use 7/16" ID tubing.

Thanks for the link, very interesting. And, I too could have used the better bend radius of smaller tubing in my current project--I had to mould 1/2" ID, 3/4" OD Tygon to make a tight 90° turn after remounting the pump as far "back" as it would go to avoid any kinking--serious pain in the butt.

[millhouse]

Once i get a watercooling system, i will use the small tube diameters. 1/2in tube may be more effective in some ways but it is butt ugly IMO. For me 7/16 would be the way i went also.

But people have their own tastes, this just happens to be mine

[Wicked Klown]

I'll be ordering some 7/16th tomorrow. I just hope this doesn't slip off the barbs while traveling like my 1/2" tubing did.

[Sneaky]

I just hope this doesn't slip off the barbs while traveling like my 1/2" tubing did.

hose clamps?

[cetoole]

I'll be ordering some 7/16th tomorrow. I just hope this doesn't slip off the barbs while traveling like my 1/2" tubing did.
I have had to remove my tubing once, and it is quite easy to remove...with a knife and/or heatgun.

[MVC]

I have had to remove my tubing once, and it is quite easy to remove...with a knife and/or heatgun.

Heatgun, good idea. I've got one but never thought to use it on recalcitrant tubing. I'll have to try that next time.

[Wicked Klown]

hose clamps?



Metal worm clamps on the 120.3 and the plastic ones you get from DD on everything else. It came off the outlet side of the 120.3 and took my dvd burner with it. Least on a good note I now have a reason to get a dual layer burner :D

[kbtat2]

I know this doesn't really matter but if you use Fuel injection hose clamps they dont have that worm gear groove which can potentially cut into the hose.

[itchy5]

i have a 3/8 system right now (moving 2 1/2'' later) it works nicely 43-46 load on this pressy :attn: $180 goes a long way

[voigts]

These are THE clamps to get "Type 430 Stainless Steel Nonperforated Worm-Drive Hose and Tube Clamps" on page 213 of Mcmaster.com They work fantastic and you can tighten the snot out of them without cutting into your tubing as they are smooth inside.

[cetoole]

These are THE clamps to get "Type 430 Stainless Steel Nonperforated Worm-Drive Hose and Tube Clamps" on page 213 of Mcmaster.com They work fantastic and you can tighten the snot out of them without cutting into your tubing as they are smooth inside.
Do they have that little gap where the screw is like regular worm drive clamps? I have to order some stuff from McMaster anyway soon, so if they are really great, I will get some.

[redwraith94]

has anyone seen a 3/8 id system best a 1/2" id or come close

searching and knowing 1/2 is the way too go how close can 3/8 come to 1/2"id as too date?

That's like asking whether a inline six will always best a v-6, everything else matters more than that. 1/2" does of course have less resistance to the water, but it's not that critical, radiator size and water temp matter a lot more. so don't worry if you already have a 3/8" setup, keep it and just upgrade some components. But if you want some numbers...1/2 has a little of over 77% more area to force water through. but the pipes themselves don't cause that much friction it's more in the radiator, water blocks, kinks in the hose etc. So it really doesn't matter. I'd say go with what the rest of the members are saying about compatibility, even that is more important than the actual diameter.

[outhouse]

wow i should have been more specific in the same system with the best components what kind of loss will i get if any with 3/8 opposed to 1/2 [close to what i asked] and now i have a 1/4 TT BW with plans of replacement or modifacation im looking at 3/8 swift cpu 600, DD chipset intel, swift 350 pump adding another 120 rad if i go 1/2, aqua 50z, WW cpu, dd maze4 NB, pro 120 dtek rad if you want the bonus round ? tell me if the quick disconnect fittings on the TTBW male are 1/4" bst or metric ! by the way in my day inline 6 kicked v8.s butt on the dirt track lol dont start lol i know v6's were very popular in formula cars and had there fame.

[Cathar]

The choice of tubing is perhaps best expressed in the amount of pressure loss (and therefore the result flow loss) that it has on the pump attempting to push water through the system.

When we talk about the effect that a tubing choice has on flow loss, we are also naturally including the effect that the fittings onto which the tubing attaches and the impact the fittings have as well, all as being part of the "choice" of using a certain tubing size.

First, we need to understand the constants here. The waterblock(s), radiators and reservoir will all have an inherent flow restriction that is independent on what tubing (and fittings) are put on them.

Understanding that, we can then get a feel for the sort of maximum achieveable flow rates that the system can achieve given one's chosen pump, and the waterblock(s) and other elements in the system regardless of the tubing size used.

Once we get a handle on what the pump could achieve using even massive tubing, then we are able to make out trade-offs on what would be an acceptable tubing size to use. This is done by analysing what impact (pressure resistance) the tubing and fittings have on the pump's ability to deliver flow. If the flow rates that the pump can achieve (even with massive tubing) are very low, then using small tubing and fittings will have minimal impact because the small tubing and fittings don't offer much resistance to low flow rates. If the flow rates achievable independent of the tubing and fittings are high, then we would naturally want to not introduce tubing which is going to significantly impact that (i.e. use larger tubing).

Therefore, the suitability of a tubing size to one's application is a function of the pump and the block/system resistance.

Roughly speaking, the following guide applies:

5/32" or 4mm ID => Good for up to 0.75LPM, acceptable for up to 1LPM
1/4" or 6mm ID => Good for up to 1.5LPM, acceptable for up to 2LPM
5/16" or 8mm ID => Good for up to 3LPM, acceptable for up to 4 LPM
3/8" or 10mm ID => Good for up to 4.5LPM, acceptable for up to 6LPM
7/16" or 11mm ID => Good for up to 7.5LPM, acceptable for up to 10LPM
1/2" or 13mm ID => Good for up to 11LPM, acceptable for up to 15LPM

It should be noted that these are not hard values, it's just that these are the sorts of flow-rates at which one should be able to begin to notice a difference by using a larger tubing size if the unrestricted flow rates are higher than a certain tubing size is acceptable for use for.

Generally speaking, if one's unrestricted (tubing wise) flow rates are less than what a certain tubing size is "good" for, then one won't really notice any real benefit by going with a larger tubing size.

There are additional caveats here, especially with respect to various waterblocks that using the fitting size to create an impingement effect (eg. Swiftech MCW-6 series) for which there are special considerations. The above guideline applies to blocks that do not use the fitting size for impingement activity.

Also, one may change the unrestricted (tubing-wise) nature of their system by changing their pump (larger pump say), in which case it would be prudent to re-assess the suitable tubing size choice for the new pumping scenario. Also some waterblocks/radiators may not release much of an additional performance gain with higher flow rates beyond a certain point, and again, this can be an additional factor in deciding if a larger tubing size is worth the effort.

[voigts]

That is a lot of good information Cathar. The question that I have is how do I actually figure out how those numbers apply to specific block/pump/rad configurations? How do I actually know what will work best for the Wc components that I have? Does that make sense?

As for the clamps, I have put up a pic of them. The entire inside is smooth with the teeth for the screw on the outside instead of the inside. I am using these and they really work great. They also are only 3/8" wide which is nice as the clamps that Lowe's. etc. sell go to 1/2" wide once they are over 3/4" in diameter which is too wide to work well on barbs.

[outhouse]

roger d summed it up with cather in the sience dept

what ive found is that depending on the cpu wb and how it takes to certain water flow ratio as well as restrictions in the whole loop as well as pelt's should determine the size and this is only for max cooling if you go for sound other factors will involve.

With that said pumps you will use plays the bigger part in the whole show swift 350 and 3/8 is fine [as with high head pressure it will overcome most midtower needs [flow mod helps] anything other i would go 1/2 [or if you have room]

i would just like to have the answer what temp will i gain with the same hardware exept tubing size

voigts those clamps are fine lol [looks like my wifes wedding ring :) and the figures are different for every part in configuration and most companies and or reviews will tell you the pertenent info to make your decision

[voigts]

Another thought about this regards the fittings. As we probably all know, 1/2" fittings only have a 3/8" ID or so opening. Same with 3/8" barbs that have about a 1/4" ID. So if you really want a 1/2" tubing setup, you would really want 5/8" barbs (1/2" ID) so as not to have your fittings restricting your tubing, correct? It seems to me that if you have all 1/2" fittings (3/8" ID) that you could use 3/8" tubing stretched over the 1/2" barbs and there would be very little if any measurable difference between that and 1/2" tubing over 1/2" (3/8" ID fittings) due to the restriction placed by the fittings. Doesn't the sizes of the fittings kind of limit your tubing effectiveness?

For instance, I started with 3/8" fittings (1/4" ID) with 3/8" tubing. I went back and changed all fittings to be 1/2" (3/8" ID) first with 3/8" tubing stretched over the 1/2" barbs. I noticed a drop in temps by a few c. I replumbed with 1/2" however and find no apparent difference between the two. Not that this is a scientific evaluation, but it seemed to me that changing the fittings from 3/8" to 1/2" did more to help with flow than changing the tubing.

[outhouse]

most tubing is i/d 1/4 3/8 1/3 6mm 8mm 10mm 12mm and a few odd #rs inbetween

in your instance going from 1/4 to 3/8 gained you a few C but your system reached its potential 1/2 would not help

streching tubing in theory makes sence, in the real world it doesnt as with high head pressure and the small difference of the fittings no gain is made as well the chance for tubing failure scares those who would think about it from going through with this thought.

[MVC]

Another thought about this regards the fittings. As we probably all know, 1/2" fittings only have a 3/8" ID or so opening. Same with 3/8" barbs that have about a 1/4" ID. So if you really want a 1/2" tubing setup, you would really want 5/8" barbs (1/2" ID) so as not to have your fittings restricting your tubing, correct? It seems to me that if you have all 1/2" fittings (3/8" ID) that you could use 3/8" tubing stretched over the 1/2" barbs and there would be very little if any measurable difference between that and 1/2" tubing over 1/2" (3/8" ID fittings) due to the restriction placed by the fittings. Doesn't the sizes of the fittings kind of limit your tubing effectiveness?

But, does the smaller inner diameter of the fitting (when the difference isn't that great) actually have a large impact on the overall flow rate or does it simply increase the velocity of the water at that particular point in the loop? I'm guessing that it would depend on the pump, but I may be wrong.

[Sneaky]

cathar, would 12mm ID tubing work as well

i was playing around with my calipers, and 12mm is right between 1/2" and 7/16"

12mm is about .46"

[thorilan]

personaly i say go with 1/2inch /13mm. not because of the science factor but because i have seen a lot of people start small and then decide to change out thier pump and blocks etc etc ( almost always for more powerful setups) and end up spending more money tubing when they could have just stook with 1 size that covers them all.

and 1/2 inch tubing doesnt always look bad. it really depends on how much oom you have in your case

[Sneaky]

i'm probably just gonna order some 1/2" and some 7/16" and see what i like more... its only $10 for 25ft of each :attn:

[voigts]

MVC, the question you have is the question that I would have. Do smaller fittings really make a real flow impact or does the water just flow faster under a little more pressure? It seems that the less restriction, the better. Having 1/2" does make sense as it works pretty well. I guess that the best way to go is to just make sure that you use one size of tubing throughout and try to use the next size up in fittings. I might also take a look at 7/16" tubing as I have a pretty small case and using 1/2" has really made it tight in places. Mcmaster does not seem to carry 7/16" that I can see. Where are you guys getting this from?

[voigts]

nevermind that... it is the 11mm stuff

[voigts]

take that back...they don't carry 11mm

[cetoole]

Where are you guys getting this from?
US Plastic (http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=7510&product%5Fid=7689&MSCSProfile=95385A1F52DEA1A229D5B375420544641A1CF7 CB7DDC4ABEDEF48B1F64EFB50C4BBC93978052AC59E3689D69 8FE25A3F05E8CD878FF38854337BA2637C7473700B6268BBE0 9ADD2612F229A4C33619A5CEC78496DBA39DD8336BE5B37F84 847553AA594B58CA09BC3003DB38DDE907F25909753967335F EBE955A704E185AFB4EA9D579843B44042)

[voigts]

Thanks for the link. They appear to be even cheaper than Mcmaster if ordering at least 10ft.