View Full Version : Value Ram vs performance ram: can we really say its worth it anymore?
nicknomo
04-11-05, 02:44 PM
Looking at the prices here, a gig can be had for 85$ at cas 2.5-4-4-8. Meanwhile, TCCD is around 240$ while other performance brands will cost $180 for a gig.
Now, I have always seen that high speed memory running 1:1 with the processor makes for faster performance. However, it is looking like the A64 doesn't improve much with raw bandwidth.
Oddly enough, I have found it hard to lose my bias towards cheap ram... but with this price difference I was curious what everyone's thoughts on the $100-150 difference.
I've made up my mind.. The extra 5% not worth $150. That extra money can go to a better processor or video card which would probably give it more of a kick than better ram.
I was curious as to how everyone else feels about the subject...
If ya got the budget, sure its worth it!!! wish I did... Unfortunately I have limited financial resources and elected to pick up some of that new $100 gskill 'econo' 2-3-3-6, very pleased so far....
glock19owner
04-11-05, 03:51 PM
My stand is...you go cheap you get what you pay for...
You spend the extra money...you get the better memory with the better warranty and better OC/Timings...
Running value ram in my system until the VX's get back in stock for my RMA...and sorry...these are FAR less then what my SKills did...and my skills was well worth the money...
IF you notice...the biggest complainers complain about...my ram wont do this and it wont do that...if you notice...they went cheap...while the ones that dont complain most of the times are the people that spent the extra money and got what they expected plus more...
Lets see some value ram running at my old specs...or some running at 260+ with 2-2-2 timings that dont die a few weeks later...and if you say RMA them if they do...then you are worse then the complainers because you are the one that killed the el-cheapos by OCing them...
At least with OCZ/Skills and a few other makers...you are gauranteed to run at 250+ with lifetime warranties...and in OCZ's case...they even warranty the extra voltage for OCers...
And if you notice something else...how many people have gone and gotten quite a few different sets of budget buckets to finally find a good set...if you figure out how much they spent on the budget buckets...95% of the time it is a lot more then it would of cost to get one good set the first time
Budget buckets are great for people on a tight budget...but do like I did and save up for the better ram...in the long run...they are worth every penny...
Craptacualr
04-11-05, 03:53 PM
depends on what you get. the old standby cheapy memorie's (corsair value, kingston value, etc) dont cut it at all. I've heard nothing but trouble with people trying to run dividers with the corsair and kingston value select chips. however, the "newschool" affordable RAM like the gskill econo or the mushkin blue in the $100-$120 per gig range is way worth the money if you ask me. those memories actually function with dividers and are made with quality UTT chips that can often hit 250mhz 2-2-2. its still a gamble for sure, but at least you can know that you can run a divider and have a possiblility of getting top-shelf chips that perform like those $250 sets. that extra $10-$30 is well worth it imo
whitebloodcell
04-11-05, 06:58 PM
However, it is looking like the A64 doesn't improve much with raw bandwidth.
So if I am going to be overclocking an Athlon 64 I don't really need to shell out for high performance Ram?
Craptacualr
04-11-05, 07:03 PM
not really... you just need newer ram that will function off a divider if you're looking to save money. If I were you on a budget, because of all the freaking speedbinned 3000+ CBBID winchesters out there I'd save the extra $100 plus dollars from really expensive memory and take a gamble with some mushkin enhanced from outpost/frys, or some twinmos speed premiums. then I'd take that extra money and get at least a 3200+ chip. prefferably waiting a week or perhaps 2 for venice cores to come out, but if you need to go NOW, get a 3200+ winnie.
whitebloodcell
04-11-05, 07:15 PM
I am waiting for the Venice Cores to come out, at which point I will get a 3000+. I am watercooling so hope to make up for the lower speed by overclocking. I am looking to cut costs wherever possible, thats why I haven't gone for the higher clocked chip.
nicknomo
04-11-05, 08:30 PM
IF you notice...the biggest complainers complain about...my ram wont do this and it wont do that...if you notice...they went cheap...while the ones that dont complain most of the times are the people that spent the extra money and got what they expected plus more...
Well thats the thing... you don't need your ram to do much.. If going 1:1 provides little benefit, then why bother? Granted, it does give you more flexibility while overclocking, but a nothing you can't manage without.
Personally, I just think more people should really think about what they are spending their $200+ dollars on.
glock19owner
04-11-05, 08:39 PM
Personally, I just think more people should really think about what they are spending their $200+ dollars on.
I do agree with this to a point...there are some out that is flat out junk and value ram is better...this is why I stated OCZ/Skills...I personally would never spend 200.00 for ballstix's thats for sure...
I have ran memory from value to sticks that cost 300.00 or so...and me personally...the added extra money you spend for good memory is well worth the money in the long run...
Most people tend to put down spending that much money...when in fact most have never used the expensive ram and have no idea how much better the memory actually is...
Like I stated above...bargin bucket ram is great for being on a tight budget...but it is well worth the money to save up for better memory...when running either a divider or 1:1...
I can attest to performance ram definitely being worth the money... and i have yet to pony up for some
My kingston value ram will not let me run a divider, really, wont even let me run manual timings and running at 1:1, i have not been able to pass 220 htt stably
It sucks, and i have realized i wasted 160 CDN on this crap, i should have spent the extra money on some OCZ
nicknomo
04-11-05, 10:43 PM
Mccrrw, I'm not sure why that is. The memory might have something to do with it indirectly, but if the BIOS and motherboard are working properly that should just not happen. With a divider, your ram should end up running within its acceptable parameters. The whole point of the divider is so the ram can run at a slower pace... which in some cases it means it might have to run a little slower than stock... it shouldn't fail under such circumstances.
nicknomo
04-11-05, 11:04 PM
I have ran memory from value to sticks that cost 300.00 or so...and me personally...the added extra money you spend for good memory is well worth the money in the long run...
I keep hearing this, but why are you saying that?
The pentium 4 machine I am on right now has a huge boost from running 1:1. It gets choked with a divider... It would almost be not worth it to go any further if not at 1:1.
But for the most part, with the P4's now running 5:4 and the A64's running great asynchronously, high speed memory is a novelty item.
The thing is, many apps don't accel simply on high memory bandwidth... The one's that do aren't taking much of a hit anymore. I see benchmarks for Quake2/3 and RTC Wolfenstein to test memory nowadays, and I think people get the wrong impression. Memory only starts to limit these games when you start hitting 150 fps... not when you are playing HL 2 at 65 fps... and doom 3 at 80 fps. Anything computationally expensive won't make a dent in today's memory bandwidths. There is plenty of time to wait for the data to be shuttle back and forth. Looking at some comparative HL 2 benches what's the difference? 5 fps here.. 4 in other circumstances...
I don't know, but to me that is absolutely trivial.
I'm usually the first one to buy expensive ram... Its been something I haven't even thought about for so long... nowadays I am building machines with value ram (to cut cost - the only way to compete) and I find out that they work just fine. In fact, the difference is negligable. I almost feel bad for letting people pay for the faster more expensive stuff.
It was actually a hard thing for me to admit to myself. That's why I made this thread. I think a lot of people are stuck in my old way of thinking, and I think if people really looking at the numbers (dollars vs speed) its just not going to make any sense. It's a hard thing to process because the 1:1 high speed, low latency rants have been embedded in our heads. After a while we stop looking for proof of it, and never bother to re-examine it. We just assume its true. If you are to take a fresh look at it, you at least have to admit that high speed memory is simply not as enticing of a buy as it once was.
I don't think you can say high speed memory is really worth double/triple the price without being influenced by how things were not how they are now.
Really, if you had the choice between 1 gig value ram & a 6800gt vs 1 gig G. Skill TCCD & a 6600 GT could you really choose the G skill TCCD?
What about 1 gig value ram and a 6800 ultra vs 1 gig TCCD & 6800GT?
Or up the processor from a 3200+ to a better binned 3500+ AND save 30 bucks....
The only scenario where it wouldn't make sense is the one where you are just going to buy very high end ($2000+). Then, cost is not so much of a factor... I think that for most people, this isn't the case.
Yeah, i know what the divider does. When switching from auto to manual ram settings (including timings and the divider) the computer is extremely unstable and rarely boots. People with other value rams have said that their ram also does not want to run with a divider
Hey,
Can any one tell me if this corsair is any good: Corsair TWINX2048-3200 (2x 1024MB DDR400 Matched Pair, CAS 3-3-3-8) Seems like a good price.($431 Canadian for 2 GB). I won't really be overclocking and it will be in a system with an AMD FX-55 and A8N SLI Deluxe.
Thanks
Jeff
nicknomo
04-11-05, 11:20 PM
Hrmm.. with P4's I've never had much trouble... but the way the memory is accessed is completely different being that there is no north bridge present on A64 boards. At some point the memory bus must be running without a divider. I would place my money that it is a BIOS bug of some sort (trying to POST with an incorrect divider).
nicknomo
04-11-05, 11:26 PM
Can any one tell me if this corsair is any good: Corsair TWINX2048-3200 (2x 1024MB DDR400 Matched Pair, CAS 3-3-3-8) Seems like a good price.($431 Canadian for 2 GB). I won't really be overclocking and it will be in a system with an AMD FX-55 and A8N SLI Deluxe.
I'm not good with conversions, so I can't give you a price reccomendation...
But, I would bet you are paying quite a premium for 1 GB sticks. I wouldn't buy them unless you will be doing something worthy of using 2 GB of ram.. like any type of editing or design software (and even then its hard to do).
2 GB is a lot of memory, and probably unecessary for 98% of all users. However, if you are keeping the machine for 3-4 years or so, it might be worth it... But if you are the type of person who changes out the machine every 1.5-2 years, don't bother.
glock19owner
04-12-05, 03:47 PM
But for the most part, with the P4's now running 5:4 and the A64's running great asynchronously, high speed memory is a novelty item.
High speed memory is not a novelty...far from it...
The SKills is what let me break the WR in 01 for non modded Pros...sorry, no value ram running at a divider will do that...and when I was running the SKills at 1:1...I took off almost 15 minutes in encryption from generic ram...
And do you honestly think I will be running my PC4000 in async :rolleyes:
Not when my A64 can handle 2.75 GHz...why would I want to run in async?
The better memory with the bettter binned chips are always better and less headaches then generic non binned chips...like the Blues...
Do you honestly think that all blues can run at 260 2-2-2 timings? This is why I stated in the long run...the better memory is better and worth the money in the long run...
As far as latency goes...I could tweak my SKills at 1:1 with better latency and bandwidth then 90% of the generic ram out running tight timings with a divider...
I didnt see very many "tweaked" sets running at 34.-ns in latency...which is what you are tweaking when running in async on a A64...
Plus lets see you RMA a set of generic ram after you tell them you have ran 3.5v's 24/7...this is another reason why the better memory is worth it...better warranty...and in some cases...warranty tuned for OCers...
How many top OCers and gamers do you see running generic ram?
BTW - I am running generic kingston value ram until the VX's get here tomorrow...and their is a major performance hit when running this crap compaired to my Skills...even when running at default settings...
nicknomo
04-12-05, 06:20 PM
Sure, when you are O/C'ing for records and stuff like that every frame and every second matters. 5% can make a difference there..
But lets be practical, and go to real world scenarios... 5% doesn't make a lick of difference for anything else. To ignore this fact would be foolish... When it comes to pure numbers, you can't look at those few measely percentages and say they are worth $150.
You didn't answer any of my questions.. which would you pick?
darkknight187
04-12-05, 06:36 PM
Worth it yes, practical i don't really think so... yea if your doing some mad benchmarks or you know your proc can run one hell of a fsb i say go for it it's only going to help....other than that IMO the average user should just give the skills value a run or something (wish i had when i built my rig) also the better ram is also a bit of an overclockers status symbol.
Honestly, I don't think it's worth in the bang for the buck category. However, it's kin of like buying a nice sports car. Would an econo-box get you to where you want to go? Yes, of course iot would. Will it it be as much fun? Of course it won't. Every buying decision is not made by dollars and cents. Some decisions are made by passion. I better stop there or I'll get myself in BIG trouble. :)
TheMainFrame
04-12-05, 08:22 PM
also the better ram is also a bit of an overclockers status symbol.
hmmm.. whats this site called again :p
nicknomo
04-12-05, 10:00 PM
I've looked at all of the specs of the people on this thread (and others), and very few have very high end boxes (A64 4000+/FX-55's, with 6800 ultras).. On this site I see a lot of 3000+ processors and 6600GT's... yet some people probably spent an extra $150 on TCCD. I need not explain where that money could have gone.
I'm not saying that people should buy "economy" computers. I'm saying that when it comes crunch time, and people have to ration their money, super fast ram should probably be further down the list... probably third or so.
There is a difference between being proficient at overclocking and just being foolish. When I was overclocking my pentium II 266, way back in 1997, it was about performance. Why anyone would undercut performance for a "status symbol" is beyond me. But hey if someone wants to overclock so they could feel better about themselves, and be 31337... then by all means knock yourself out. This post was directed more towards those who wanted to get the most performance out of their hardware for their money.
nicknomo
04-12-05, 10:06 PM
Honestly, I don't think it's worth in the bang for the buck category. However, it's kin of like buying a nice sports car. Would an econo-box get you to where you want to go? Yes, of course it would. Will it it be as much fun? Of course it won't. Every buying decision is not made by dollars and cents. Some decisions are made by passion. I better stop there or I'll get myself in BIG trouble. :)
This is the only response I can agree with...
If the point of making your machine is purely fun, then I just can't argue with that. You should do what you want to make it fun for you.. After all that's why you are spending the money.
If you want a benchmark record, and you need a high fsb to do it... and that floats your boat, then by all means.
It's not my intention to say people shouldn't do what makes them happy. It's my intention to say that if people want the maximum amount of performance on a non-superfluous budget, then performance ram is definitely not ther first thing you should direct your money at.
other than latency, wat's so great about performance ram?
darkknight187
04-12-05, 10:15 PM
other than latency, wat's so great about performance ram?
higher speeds for a better 1:1 overclock provided that your proc can handle it it will also increse memory bandwidth
1:1?
sry i'm still kinda a novice not a noob anymore but a novice
Well, I don't think that spending more money on the cpu makes a great deal of sence either. My cheapo Winnie runs very well at 2.52ghz on all stock voltages(vdimm and vcore). It would be foolish of me, I believe to have invested in a high end cpu for that would have gotten me very little more bang for a lot more bucks. However, a high end video card would probably net the best performance increase, but that type of performance is really for a big gamer, which I'm not. I think people should go with whaterver floats their boat and if thats first rate ram then that's fine. Spending money foolishly is something we all do everyday. :)
nicknomo
04-12-05, 10:29 PM
other than latency, wat's so great about performance ram?
Before AMD put in an on-die memory controller, running the memory asynchronously (slower than the bus speed) caused a huge performance hit. Performance ram allowed ram to run at a faster speed, usually while maintaining relatively low latencies.
When people overclock their machines, they almost exclusively raise the bus speed (especially now since multipliers are usually locked to some degree). If they didn't have performance ram, the bus speed would reach a point where the memory would fail to run properly. They then had to use a divider and lower the memory speed (running asynchronously), which caused a performance hit. Performance ram solved this problem. The overclockers were now able to raise the bus speed a great deal higher before the ram would fail.
However, nowadays running asynchronously has much less of an impact (ther performance difference is quite small now)... At the same time, DRAM prices are WAYYY down, except on the high end performance ram. That's where this discussion has spawned from.
1:1?
sry i'm still kinda a novice not a noob anymore but a novice
1:1 means running the ram at the same speed as the CPU front side bus or HTT as it's referred to on A64 boards.
No, need to be sorry. We are all here to learn.
nicknomo
04-12-05, 10:42 PM
Well, I don't think that spending more money on the cpu makes a great deal of sence either. My cheapo Winnie runs very well at 2.52ghz on all stock voltages(vdimm and vcore). It would be foolish of me, I believe to have invested in a high end cpu for that would have gotten me very little more bang for a lot more bucks. However, a high end video card would probably net the best performance increase, but that type of performance is really for a big gamer, which I'm not. I think people should go with whaterver floats their boat and if thats first rate ram then that's fine. Spending money foolishly is something we all do everyday. :)
Thats a very impressive chip you got a hold of...
Getting a good cpu is a bit hard to do, and does come down to a bit of luck. It's a bit hard to pick your stepping and week when you shop online, so you almost have to rely on manufacturer binning. Its apparent from these forums that sometimes a person with a 3000+ can top someone who buys a 3500+. Just from what I've observed though, it looks like those who buy a 3000+ generally have had worse luck than those who bought a 3200+... this is ignoring steppings and weeks that had particularly good performance yields. I haven't seen all that much of a difference between 3200+ and 3500+ results though.
Graphics cards are of course the number 1 focus for everyone who builds a gaming machine.. I think many overclockers overlap into the gaming crowd. There should be absolutely no argument about which is the smarter choice here..
High ram speeds generally have a limited application though. I think for just about anything other than some synthetic benchmarks and very old games, you can find a part to upgrade that is more important than an extra 100 mhz on your memory speed. Sure there will be a few, maybe some time intensive multimedia applications, but for a lot of people here this isn't a common activity.
It does come down to the question "where do you need the performance?". I think a majority of the time, it won't be an application that values memory speed first and foremost.
deathstar13
04-12-05, 10:52 PM
if your a tweaker/gamer its worth it.
if you are a surfer/photochopper/on a budget its not worth it.
1gig for $80 for the cheap stuff for another $80 i can double the amount =2gb $160
or i could spend $160-$240 and gain a 5-10% speed increase with better timings for the same 1gig of ram.
now to fully see that 5-10% increase in speed in the system you MUST run it 100% load to see it over the cheaper stuff.
these are just numbers off the top of my head and may not be as accurate as you feel you would like.
and in an intel system especially the 875 chipset a 10% increase in memory bandwith efficiancy is seen with a 5/4 devider over 1:1 its been proven also.
thats not to say high priced ram isnt needed or is a waste.
but the cost to effectiveness ratio is really high.
nicknomo
04-12-05, 11:06 PM
if your a tweaker/gamer its worth it.
if you are a surfer/photochopper/on a budget its not worth it.
1gig for $80 for the cheap stuff for another $80 i can double the amount =2gb $160
or i could spend $160-$240 and gain a 5-10% speed increase with better timings for the same 1gig of ram.
10% will come on benchmarks like quake 2/3 and things like 3d mark 2001. Modern games will probably net you 5% or less.3-5% is probably the proper range for what I've seen tests on (Doom3, Hl2, Far Cry, etc)
I find it interesting that you say gamers will benefit... Personally I think that is the last person who should buy performance ram. Take that extra 125+ dollars and put it to a better video card. Unless you have a 6800 ultra or X800XT, I'd say you should put the brunt of your cash flow there (with your cpu as the secondary).
However, I've noticed that I've now started to state the same things in my posts. In order to not get repetitive, I think I will let this thread die, unless anyone has a specific response to me.
I hope maybe everyone will start to realize that even if something was true, and has been for a long time, that it is still capable of changing. The need for 1:1 isn't very important anymore, and that's a change from how it used to be. Try to keep an open mind :p .
deathstar13
04-12-05, 11:22 PM
10% will come on benchmarks like quake 2/3 and things like 3d mark 2001. Modern games will probably net you 5% or less.3-5% is probably the proper range for what I've seen tests on (Doom3, Hl2, Far Cry, etc)
I find it interesting that you say gamers will benefit... Personally I think that is the last person who should buy performance ram. Take that extra 125+ dollars and put it to a better video card. Unless you have a 6800 ultra or X800XT, I'd say you should put the brunt of your cash flow there (with your cpu as the secondary).
However, I've noticed that I've now started to state the same things in my posts. In order to not get repetitive, I think I will let this thread die, unless anyone has a specific response to me.
I hope maybe everyone will start to realize that even if something was true, and has been for a long time, that it is still capable of changing. The need for 1:1 isn't very important anymore, and that's a change from how it used to be. Try to keep an open mind :p .well i agree with all you sayd in the post.
i did over state the numbers imo from what i believe to be true but was that way so i dont have to prove anything.nor do i care to atm.
but here is the thing.
i just bought a new cpu/mobo/ram
1-gig of the wintec ampo from newegg $80 shipped max.
its doing 209fsb 3.0-3-3-8 1.55vdimm
im also useing a s754 sempron +2800 and with this combo beating rigs in a REAL benchmark superpi that cost 2-4x as much.
36.85seconds with an unpatched version of superpi.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/deathstar13/sprpi36.jpg
i upgraded a p3 933 to this for $227 total and that included a 450wt psu.
so what i spent on my WHOLE upgrade people spend just on the ram.
sure with better ram i could get better scores in superpi or other benchmark.
but for myself id rather keep the $$$ or just buy another gig if i see i need more ram.
Thats a very impressive chip you got a hold of...
Getting a good cpu is a bit hard to do, and does come down to a bit of luck. It's a bit hard to pick your stepping and week when you shop online, so you almost have to rely on manufacturer binning. Its apparent from these forums that sometimes a person with a 3000+ can top someone who buys a 3500+. Just from what I've observed though, it looks like those who buy a 3000+ generally have had worse luck than those who bought a 3200+... this is ignoring steppings and weeks that had particularly good performance yields. I haven't seen all that much of a difference between 3200+ and 3500+ results though.
Graphics cards are of course the number 1 focus for everyone who builds a gaming machine.. I think many overclockers overlap into the gaming crowd. There should be absolutely no argument about which is the smarter choice here..
High ram speeds generally have a limited application though. I think for just about anything other than some synthetic benchmarks and very old games, you can find a part to upgrade that is more important than an extra 100 mhz on your memory speed. Sure there will be a few, maybe some time intensive multimedia applications, but for a lot of people here this isn't a common activity.
It does come down to the question "where do you need the performance?". I think a majority of the time, it won't be an application that values memory speed first and foremost.
Yes, I got lucky with this Winnie and of course when you buy a cpu over the net it's pot luck. I'm a musician and while I use my rig for all kinds of things, its main purpose is editing audio files. While I'm aware that P4's are better for that function, I would never purchase an Intel anything. However, my system will tear through Adobe Audition files like a hot knife through butter. I believe this is in part do to the quality ram, but I'd be a big liar if I said that was why I got it. Value Gkill would have done the job just fine for $100 less. I think your point about ram is well taken. If someone’s on a budget, and most folks are whether they admit to it or not, then high end ram is a needless luxury. Now, let me sneak out of here before some one charges me with heresy! :)
Enablingwolf
04-13-05, 09:17 AM
I got cheap RAM for my build of this current PC. Yes it does work, without errors in memtest, and I got a bit of an overlcock. It comes at a price though. No, not finacially. It is knowing the RAM is not good stuff and could cause all sorts of random weird errors at any time(it happens sometimes in games, but tests good). Now when I have the monies built up. I can move this RAM to the budget box (spare parts). Then install the RAM I intended to install, but ran out of funds before the build was completed.
You want a good running pc, get good running RAM. You want budget results, buy budget RAM. Not many budget brands have low latentcy RAM. I miss having a good brand of RAM under the hood and I can tell the difference in how the machine reacts to extreem heavy loads.
nicknomo
04-13-05, 10:02 AM
im also useing a s754 sempron +2800 and with this combo beating rigs in a REAL benchmark superpi that cost 2-4x as much.
36.85seconds with an unpatched version of superpi.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/deathstar13/sprpi36.jpg
i upgraded a p3 933 to this for $227 total and that included a 450wt psu.
so what i spent on my WHOLE upgrade people spend just on the ram.
sure with better ram i could get better scores in superpi or other benchmark.
but for myself id rather keep the $$$ or just buy another gig if i see i need more ram.
That is a nice clock speed to reach with a 2800+... That is one nice upgrade for $230...
Jotolicious
04-13-05, 10:41 AM
on a somewhat related note, my $42 512mb stick of mushkin basic green came today. RAM IS SO CHEAP !!! :) i remember a couple months ago it was like $74 for the exact same thing...
deathstar13
04-13-05, 10:50 AM
That is a nice clock speed to reach with a 2800+... That is one nice upgrade for $230...TY! i like it alot.i do wish it was 64bit but it will last a while till i can find a deal on a dual core A64.
here is my thinking when the rig was upgraded:
1.buy current technology.
2.get quality,not speed.
3.get the cheapest as possible.
4.dont buy over what i need or use.
5.dont invest money in extra parts when i have old parts i could reuse.
I got cheap RAM for my build of this current PC. Yes it does work, without errors in memtest, and I got a bit of an overlcock. It comes at a price though. No, not finacially. It is knowing the RAM is not good stuff and could cause all sorts of random weird errors at any time(it happens sometimes in games, but tests good). Now when I have the monies built up. I can move this RAM to the budget box (spare parts). Then install the RAM I intended to install, but ran out of funds before the build was completed. id bet $10 of internet bucks you have issues other than the ram.
Enablingwolf
04-13-05, 10:56 AM
The issues are so random, and it only happens when RAM is accessed. Wether it is overclocked or not.
I had some good RAM in this and it worked flawless. It is so random I discount the need to replace the RAM right now. Just live with it until I can get the funds up. I got Wintec RAM and it is about the bottom of the barrel for cheap. I get the strange happenings maybe once a week if that.
I think there is a big difference between buying value ram form a reputable company and generic brand X ram. The former will perform at specs and sometimes better. The later is total pot luck and you never know what you'll get or if you can get it replaced if it's faulty.
deathstar13
04-13-05, 11:05 AM
The issues are so random, and it only happens when RAM is accessed. Wether it is overclocked or not.
I had some good RAM in this and it worked flawless. It is so random I discount the need to replace the RAM right now. Just live with it until I can get the funds up. I got Wintec RAM and it is about the bottom of the barrel for cheap. I get the strange happenings maybe once a week if that.i have 2 sticks of that ram in my rig at atm and have seen no issues on my end.
once a week is very random imo also.most likley a compatability issue somewhere,this could happen with any ram.not just the cheap stuff.
btw if you sell that ram in the clasifieds give me a pm before the sale for a heads up.
ive been around a while and let me say the high end stuff has just as many issues like this as the cheap stuff if not more.
deathstar13
04-13-05, 11:16 AM
I think there is a big difference between buying value ram form a reputable company and generic brand X ram. The former will perform at specs and sometimes better. The later is total pot luck and you never know what you'll get or if you can get it replaced if it's faulty.
thats easy just buy from newegg.
buying from a reputable no-hassle retailer is more important than a reputable maker.
Enablingwolf
04-13-05, 11:21 AM
Agreed, even the good stuff can give weird going ons. I one time looked at the OCZ forum and seen issues aplenty in all their price ranges.
The randomness is me asking to much out of the RAM. I expect all pc parts to perform utterly perfect in all conditions, at all times. The pc is stable enough for day to day usage, but it is not worthy of what I paid into it so far. You truly get what you pay for, if you know what is good and what is not.
deathstar13 ygpm
Enablingwolf
04-13-05, 11:24 AM
thats easy just buy from newegg.
buying from a reputable no-hassle retailer is more important than a reputable maker.
Matter of fact this RAM was gotten from newegg before the big drop in the prices of RAM. I payed $53 including shipping for this stick, now it is under $40 w/ shipping.
deathstar13
04-13-05, 11:30 AM
Agreed, even the good stuff can give weird going ons. I one time looked at the OCZ forum and seen issues aplenty in all their price ranges.
The randomness is me asking to much out of the RAM. I expect all pc parts to perform utterly perfect in all conditions, at all times. The pc is stable enough for day to day usage, but it is not worthy of what I paid into it so far. You truly get what you pay for, if you know what is good and what is not.
deathstar13 ygpm i do understand your high expectations,i am the same when i pour tons-o-cash in a rig for max performance and one part is normal or ordinary and should be faster.
Enablingwolf
04-13-05, 11:44 AM
Value:
1. An amount, as of goods, services, or money, considered to be a fair and suitable equivalent for something else; a fair price or return.
2. Monetary or material worth: the fluctuating value of gold and silver.
3. Worth in usefulness or importance to the possessor; utility or merit.
If your spending a large amounts of cash on a gaming rig or a rig that you depend on for day to day enjoyment. Do you skimp? Value is a volatile thing when it comes to PC parts.
As the definition shows, "value" RAM is kind of subjective. It it fits your needs for the price you put out. Then it is good stuff, if it performs to your expectations. I did get a good value, but I am not happy with the return.
To me high end RAM, gives high end results. My RAM right now is the bottleneck of my PC.
nicknomo
04-13-05, 12:26 PM
The very important difference between BRANDED value ram and generic ram must be noted here..
I use corsair value ram (because its cheap) in quite a lot of systems (which all run at stock). In the office environment, coupled with cheap boards and semprons, they hold up extremely well... Many stay on 24 hours a day. I don't doubt that they are just as stable at their rated speeds as any other ram out there.
As far as sticks going bad, I've had 2 sticks go bad out of roughly 70 machines (give or take 5ish) since I've started using the stuff. One was a straight up death (no posting), the other was sporadic errors. One was like this on arrival, easy to swap out, while the other happened over time. Those are rather good statistics IMO.
Generic ram on the other hand is outright crap half the time. A lot of times the chips are the same as other brands (all from the same manufacturers) but I heard a lot of these companies use ****ty PCB's, crappy manufacturing (chip pressing) techniques and bad quality control.
The only problems you might have with BRANDED value ram might be at the very bottom of the barrel (say Cas 3-4-4-8 ram). I'd say then that there is no real room for error. You can't even raise the timings to alleviate problems there.. However, G skill offers cas 2 value ram and corsair and kingston offer cas 2.5 value ram.
Value ram is perfectly functional, just not able to clock much higher or operate with lower timings. Generic Ram on the other hand should be avoided like the plague.
glock19owner
04-14-05, 02:28 AM
Heres why you get set brand name if you want the best performance...and why you save up for the better memory if you want the best performance...
And I thought my Skills was tight...
BTW - These are the 3200 VX's...RMA got messeded up...well just couldnt let them just sit in the case ;)...not 100% stable at 270...but 265 is...this is only at 3.4v :attn:
SeanOMatic
04-14-05, 03:22 AM
:cool:
Keep those VX sticks, I am not going to need to send you 4000 VX Gold if those bads boys are rock stable at 265!
deathstar13
04-14-05, 11:03 AM
Heres why you get set brand name if you want the best performance...and why you save up for the better memory if you want the best performance...
And I thought my Skills was tight...
BTW - These are the 3200 VX's...RMA got messeded up...well just couldnt let them just sit in the case ;)...not 100% stable at 270...but 265 is...this is only at 3.4v :attn:
yes thats killer speeds but imo thats not what turns my wheels anymore.
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820227203
2x512mb= $239
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820211119
i can buy 6.8 sticks or 6 sticks with shipping included.
so 3GB of ram versus 1 gb of fast ram?
6 months ago id be buying the ocz no doubt. but you or 5 other addicted ocers couldnt twist my arm to anymore to take performance over value.
at best i loose 5% total performance due to having cheaper not so much ocing ram but save 70% of the cost in doing so.
heres something funny: wasnt but 6 months ago i was bugging sean to hand test and pick me some sticks and id pay extra for that on top of buying the most expensive sticks they made. i figured $400-$500 i would have paid for a gig of ram.
hell my whole rig now costs just $300 if that :)
and by the way my current rig which costs $300 is at only a 5-10% lower cpu performance overall over my last one that cost me $2000+ in parts.
now im not saying we dont need people like ocz as they are filling a want we have,but not so much a need.
my views have taken a complete 180 degree snap.
I'm sure most of you have already read Anandtech's latest review of value RAM. But for the benefit of other readers of the thread, the article is here (http://www.anandtech.com/memory/showdoc.aspx?i=2392).
Given these results and this thread (http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=28&threadid=1475190&frmKeyword=&STARTPAGE=1&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear) I really think its time people started admitting that cheaper RAM can get the job done *almost* as good as the most expensive RAM when it comes to real-world performance. Obviously, if money is no object, than go for the best of the best, but it seems to me that the best option for overclockers on a modest budget would be to go for a better Video Card and CPU on a bang-for-your-buck level.
glock19owner
04-14-05, 02:37 PM
i can buy 6.8 sticks or 6 sticks with shipping included.
so 3GB of ram versus 1 gb of fast ram?
Heres the thing though...what are you going to do with 3 Gigs of ram...especially when filling all DIMMS on a A64? Especially since you do not want to fill all the DIMMS on a A64...even when running a 754
Also...if you notice I stated "best performance" a few times ;)
Reefa_Madness
04-14-05, 04:37 PM
You should attempt to buy ram that best matches the rest of your components.
It makes no sense to create bottlenecks at any point of your rig by overspending in one area and cutting corners on another, whatever area that might be.
Its the old "a chain is only as strong as its weakest link" kinda thing. If you spend gobs of money on your mobo, your cpu, your video card and cooling then you turn around and go with cheap ram you've just increase the chances of having all those other expensive components in your system underperforming. You might get lucky, but you've sure stacked the odds against yourself.
Likewise, if every other component is budget or middle of the road, then to go with top shelf ram is nothing short of silly and a waste of money that could have been better spent on upgrading the other components.
Again, in my opinion the best answer is to seek the best performing system within your budget, whatever that may be, and not the best performing individual components.
nicknomo
04-14-05, 06:24 PM
You should attempt to buy ram that best matches the rest of your components.
It makes no sense to create bottlenecks at any point of your rig by overspending in one area and cutting corners on another, whatever area that might be.
This makes sense, but you have to make a good analysis of where your biggest bottleneck is.
If your playing 3d games for one, your bottleneck is almost never going to be your ram unless you want to break that 180 fps mark in Quake 3... Even a 6800 GT can get bottlenecked by some of these games with 1280 res and AA on. Just wait until next generation of games comes out...
I've never heard anyone say, "wow <insert hot game title here> is out.. Good thing I bought that high speed ram instead of a faster video card (or cpu) because this game is a system killer".
Another example is when people by two 74 GB raptors in RAID-0 so they can play their games better. You don't get any more fps, but you spend an extra $300.
Increased ram speed can be beneficial under the right circumstances.. but apps that use highly complex computations and/or intense graphics aren't in the picture.. Of course it excels in rare situations like super pi... but mainly you see the biggest increase in outdated software/benchmarks that the rest of your system takes with ease.
Sure 3dmark2001 will get a big boost... but 3dmark 2005 won't. Half Life 1, Quake3, oh they will go MUCH faster with faster ram/fsb... but half life 2, doom 3 aren't going to give you much in return for your $250 ram.
So where is your bottleneck for what you want to do? (rhetorical question). Not in your ram most of the time... and people should take this into consideration
Reefa_Madness
04-14-05, 09:56 PM
Just like you said, the bottleneck can be created at different places, depending on what applications or games you play. In the best case you could anticipate your intended current and future use 100% and correctly match your components.
As we all know, that's not going to happen because as you stated above, different games and different applications stress your system at different points. So the next best thing is just to make your system as balanced as possible within your budget. By that I mean not to put a high percentage of the budget into any one component, at the expense of the others. Even that is not a simpe thing to determine.
The law of diminishing returns is clearly evident in computer components...it costs more and more for less and less performance increase. At what point does it quits being worth it to spend $$$ for small %%% increases is the question that everyone with a budget struggles with.
It does make for nice discussions, though.
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