What the heck is ATI doing?

[Vulcan]

Anybody have any idea what the heck is going on with ATI? Nvidia is walking all over them... I hate to go get an Nvidia card, but that seems to be the only good option for the moment.

[felinusz]

How do you figure nVidia is walking all over ATi? Because nVidia has the 7800 out, and ATi still hasn't released Fudo?

We need to keep in mind that the high-end flagship parts are an extremely small part of the market. So few of the highest end video cards are even made, let alone sold (compared to the real market, affordable mass-purchase solutions for businesses and normal users), that the flagship is almost irrelevant. Where does all of ATi's and nVidia's money come from? 7800's and X850 XTPE's, or from X700's, 6600's, 6200's and X300SE's?

From what I can tell of the state of the two companies, nVidia does not walk all over ATi, far from it :). They just have a better high-end flagship product right now. But we have to ask, does this in any way influence the people with budget ATi video cards? :)

[cooper15]

i guess the x850xtpe is a piece of crap now :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[IWasHungry]

i guess the x850xtpe is a piece of crap now :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Only 16 pipelines? No way! So ancient! :D

In some areas, Nvidia is in the lead. And in other it's ATI.
It really depends how much $$$ you're willing to spend.

<$100 --> X600PRO (ATI)
$100-200 --> 6600GT (Nvidia)
$200-300 --> X800PRO/X800XL (ATI)
$300-400 --> 6800GT (Nvidia)
$400-500 --> X850XT (ATI)
$$$$$$$$ --> 7800GTX (Nvidia)

That's in USD$, but you get the picture.

[bobmanfoo]

my 7700+ 3dmark score sucks =( , the 7800GTX scores put me to shame...

btw x850xts can be had for less than 400$

[lilxvietxboi]

Actually. I concur with Vulcan, but for different reasons.

nVidia has a upper hand on ATi at the moment, not because of the 7800, but the (new) mid to low end market. How many people have a 6600 compared to the X700(I don't think I could find a x700 in the avg. joe fry's)? Where is the missing X700XT? 6200's can be modded to 6600's. X300's well, I see them show up in OEM computers once in a while, same with 6200's.

In the last generation (including this) nVidia has proved rather dominate in the mid-budget market, more so then ATi. The generation before that ATi just dug nVidia a grave because of the the failing FX line(Sad to say I owned a FX5600 256MB), beaten up by the 9XXX Series(I also owned a 9800Pro->XT). I now own a 6800 and a X800XL from the past generation(A little love for both sides), so you cannot call me biased. We will see who owns the avg joe market once the budget cards come out for the new generation.


<$100 --> X600PRO (ATI)
$100-200 --> 6600GT (Nvidia)
$200-300 --> X800PRO/X800XL (ATI)
$300-400 --> 6800GT (Nvidia)
$400-500 --> X850XT (ATI)
$$$$$$$$ --> 7800GTX (Nvidia)


I wouldn't put the 6800GT in 300-400 for very long, I would drop it to the high end 200-300, because they are dropping! :) And you don't forget about SLi and everything else that encompasses that :p

[crimedog]

In "real" prices.

<$100 --> 6600
$100-200 --> 6800
$200-300 --> 6800gt/x8x0pro(or XL)
$300-400 --> 6800U/x8x0xt
$400-500 --> 7800gtx
$$$$$$$$ --> SLI

If you think this thread is incorrect then please think of the last time ATI didn't counter nvidia's new offerings, or vice versa.

[lilxvietxboi]

In "real" prices.

<$100 --> 6600
$100-200 --> 6800
$200-300 --> 6800gt/x8x0pro(or XL)
$300-400 --> 6800U/x8x0xt
$400-500 --> 7800gtx
$$$$$$$$ --> SLI

If you think this thread is incorrect then please think of the last time ATI didn't counter nvidia's new offerings, or vice versa.

Yup yup. BUT I would replace 100-200 with a 6600GT instead of a 6800NU as they are meant to replace them. Also, the 7800gtx can be had for 479? I forgot where I saw it! but yes, it adds to my post! Lower end/Mid Range is dominated by nVidia ATM.

[IWasHungry]

Okay I think you guys are meandering away from the point :); depending on how much you're willing to spend, either ATI or Nvidia is dominant at that price. So nobody has the upper hand.

[Vulcan]

I guess Nvidia isn't walking all over ATI, b ut I have to say that ATI definatly isn't doing as well as they were prior to the 6 series geforces. Anyway, I hope they can turn it around with the R520.

I definalt can't afford an 7800gtx, I was more looking at a 6800gt. For 300.00 that seems to be the best performing card. I'll have another 200.00 in a few weeks, so by the time the r520 is released I will be able to afford it.

[LeEbZ0r]

How do you figure nVidia is walking all over ATi? Because nVidia has the 7800 out, and ATi still hasn't released Fudo?

We need to keep in mind that the high-end flagship parts are an extremely small part of the market. So few of the highest end video cards are even made, let alone sold (compared to the real market, affordable mass-purchase solutions for businesses and normal users), that the flagship is almost irrelevant. Where does all of ATi's and nVidia's money come from? 7800's and X850 XTPE's, or from X700's, 6600's, 6200's and X300SE's?

From what I can tell of the state of the two companies, nVidia does not walk all over ATi, far from it :). They just have a better high-end flagship product right now. But we have to ask, does this in any way influence the people with budget ATi video cards? :)

I agree with everything you said man because most of the people arent getting the high-end cards.

[kwago]

...and dont forget ati is still miles behind nvidia when it comes to open gl dcc apps

[Vulcan]

I agree with everything you said man because most of the people arent getting the high-end cards.

I still say nvidia is winning in the mid range cards too.

[speed bump]

ATI at one point had a larger market share than Nvidia, Right now Nvidia is gaining marketshare and weirdly enough experts are crediting SLI. Still you have to say the first thing on peoples minds when you say under $200 is either the 6800nu or 6600gt.

[Fighter2a]

The end of the year will definitely be interesting.

[IWasHungry]

SLI probably has a lot to do with it, because people just don't know. They think that if they're using 2 video cards at once, then games will run 2x faster, which isn't even close to true. They have no idea how much they're getting ripped off by getting 2x 6600GTs, when they could get equal performance with a single 6800GT or X800XL.

[Sevin7]

$100 --> X600PRO (ATI) the x700np is only $90 and its better than the x600pro
$100-200 --> 6600GT (Nvidia)- the x800NP is $165 and its significanly better than the 6600gt
$200-300 --> X800PRO/X800XL (ATI) you can even get an x800xt for this price sometimes
$300-400 --> 6800GT (Nvidia) how is a 6800gt better than an x850xt? your on crack
$400-500 --> X850XT (ATI)
$$$$$$$$ --> 7800GTX (Nvidia)

[SolidxSnake]

$100 --> X600PRO (ATI) the x700np is only $90 and its better than the x600pro
$100-200 --> 6600GT (Nvidia)- the x800NP is $165 and its significanly better than the 6600gt
$200-300 --> X800PRO/X800XL (ATI) you can even get an x800xt for this price sometimes
$300-400 --> 6800GT (Nvidia) how is a 6800gt better than an x850xt? your on crack
$400-500 --> X850XT (ATI)
$$$$$$$$ --> 7800GTX (Nvidia)


I was always under the impression that the 6800Ultra > X850XT...

Either way, nVidia is dominating the Low-Mid range markets. for a first, they have AGP variants of all of their low range cards, can't say the same for the x300/600/700. And last I heard, the 6600GT smoked the x700pro.

[ShadowClock59]

Ive gone with nVidia all of my life, but Im not blind. ATI has had its share of better cards, MUCH better cards. I have many times thought about going with ATI instead of nvidia. This time I went with the 7800gtx because I needed something that was PCI-Express and id been saving for the g70 or r520 since I heard they were coming out.

I think that ATI just wants to make sure they can prove there dominance by releasing a card that just glides in front of nvidia. This doesnt mean nvidia sux, but ATI is smart. Look at the X850XTPE, its getting 6000+ in 05, ATI wont have to do much to improve a few grand on that score, Especially when it comes to adding a minimum of 8 more pipes, and from what we have be told, it will be 32 pipes. We'll just have to wait and see. I think the R520 will be much better than the 7800GTX, but I didnt say anything about the 7800Ultra did I. :cool:

[SolidxSnake]

Ive gone with nVidia all of my life, but Im not blind. ATI has had its share of better cards, MUCH better cards. I have many times thought about going with ATI instead of nvidia. This time I went with the 7800gtx because I needed something that was PCI-Express and id been saving for the g70 or r520 since I heard they were coming out.

I think that ATI just wants to make sure they can prove there dominance by releasing a card that just glides in front of nvidia. This doesnt mean nvidia sux, but ATI is smart. Look at the X850XTPE, its getting 6000+ in 05, ATI wont have to do much to improve a few grand on that score, Especially when it comes to adding a minimum of 8 more pipes, and from what we have be told, it will be 32 pipes. We'll just have to wait and see. I think the R520 will be much better than the 7800GTX, but I didnt say anything about the 7800Ultra did I. :cool:


I'm takin a wild guess here, but I say the 7800GTX (not the Ultra, mind you) will dominate the r520 at the start. I'm predicting that the r520 core will have some sort of fab defect from dropping the process to 90nm (i think thats what they dropped to). Then they will have to make a r570 (hey, just add 50 to the number, like they did with the x800 :p) to get back in the game. Just like the 6800/x800 battle. ATi made the X850 and got back in the game.

[bobmanfoo]

I was always under the impression that the 6800Ultra > X850XT...
where did you get that impression? 6800U is only a tad faster than the GT, x850xt leaves both of them behind..... i've had all 3 cards

[LeEbZ0r]

I really dont think that they're dominating the low to mid-range market. Its just that the majority of the people on these boards recommend the nVidia cards because we already know what they can do and what they're capable of and because of that we automatically think that the people buy them. People usually buy cards then come to these boards to see what can be done then realize that they made the wrong choice. Kind of like myself by getting a x800PRO instead of a 6800gt.

[Cheator]

I gota say I love ATI and it has some to do with them being Canadian. It also has alot to do with the fact that all the Nvidia I have had produce WAY too much heat, an dall of the ones I have had so far died.

[ShadowClock59]

where did you get that impression? 6800U is only a tad faster than the GT, x850xt leaves both of them behind..... i've had all 3 cards

Agreed, the benchies tell it all. Even though the x850xt isnt the fastest card right now, its one amazing card, it left all of them in the dust apart from SLI, but nvidia still had its lead in Chronicles of Riddick, and that game is FREAKING KILLER on your entire system, which is why I stand by my point I made back when the x800/6800 war first broke out, nvidia is better in the new pixel shader enhanced games, like COR:Butcher bay. I kinda wish I couldve tried the x850 out, hmm.

[Dan0512]

It just surprises me that some people say their 16 pip card is "crap" because a 24 pip card beats it. You cant expect a 16 pip. card to perform like a 24 pip. card either. Just wait till ati releases the R500 line then it's end of the 7800 parade...

Dan

[kwago]

...until the 7800 ultra comes out ;p

[bobmanfoo]

It just surprises me that some people say their 16 pip card is "crap" because a 24 pip card beats it. You cant expect a 16 pip. card to perform like a 24 pip. card either. Just wait till ati releases the R500 line then it's end of the 7800 parade...

Dan
if you are referring to me i was being sarcastic :) the 7800GTX benches are just a little higher than mine

[Sevin7]

yes the 6600gt smokes the x700pro but not the x800NP, and the x800np is the same price.

[Silversinksam]

I read THIS (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=24540) yesterday and I thought it was interesting. Specifically this:

The first R520 silicon worked at high speeds but only few chips worked, we hear. Wafers are expensive and each costs roughly $3000 and if only 20 chips work from your wafer that will make a production costs of that chip enormously big. You need a better number to make more money. We heard those numbers a while back and we believe that this is how much Nvidia or ATI has to pay for each wafer.

Boils down to $150 per chip, then along in the article it shows how Nvidia has a 2.5 month lead on ATI, now before any of you start calling me an Nvidiot, read my SIG because I prefer ATI over Nvidia, but the bottom line is I get the best card available depending on who has the better price when I'm ready to buy. I will never spend $499 or more on any video card.

[speed bump]

SSS even if that is the inquier thats scary. I wan't an inexpensive x800xt card but this is delaying that and allowing Nvidia to pwn them also.

[bobmanfoo]

*sigh* man i hope it doesn't take too long for the r520 to be available for reasonable prices, i might have to go back to the Dark side, you wouldthink that ati would've learned from what happened during last generation's release

[bobmanfoo]

..... I will never spend $499 or more on any video card.
with the way the economy is going and the inflation rates, and mainly the the pc addiction.... can we quote you on that? :)

[O l\l E]

*sigh* man i hope it doesn't take too long for the r520 to be available for reasonable prices, i might have to go back to the Dark side, you wouldthink that ati would've learned from what happened during last generation's release

I feel the same way - at least we'll be VERY competitve with the X850CF against the 7800GTX

[Nandro]

2.5 months with the 7800 out will give NV quite a while to work on their die shrink and give them another live same day launch. People appear to be very pleased with it and ati is going to have to live up to that as well. Man do I hope paper launches are things of the past. Speaking of, what is the time fram on the ATI cross fire thingy, or is that out yet. I have been kind of wrapped up in audiophile stuff for a while.

[Silversinksam]

with the way the economy is going and the inflation rates, and mainly the the pc addiction.... can we quote you on that? :)

Yes, but my statement is only valid for 5 years :p

[Falcon-K]

I'm takin a wild guess here, but I say the 7800GTX (not the Ultra, mind you) will dominate the r520 at the start. I'm predicting that the r520 core will have some sort of fab defect from dropping the process to 90nm (i think thats what they dropped to). Then they will have to make a r570 (hey, just add 50 to the number, like they did with the x800 :p) to get back in the game. Just like the 6800/x800 battle. ATi made the X850 and got back in the game.


Since there has been no real testing of the R520 core, only some spectimation(32pipes, 90nm, 600+ mghz core, ect, ect) how can you say that the 7800GTX will dominate the R520? Is your predictions based on anything at all thats factual?

Also the X800 XT did very well against the 6800 Ultra if I remember right, when AA and AF was turned on it was even more competitive, ATI released a X850 series to make more money. Some people even if they have a X800 XT PE will buy a X850 XT PE. The refresh was only around 10% different at most. The X800 XT and X850 XT are not that different. If I a remember correctly isnt the only difference basically the core/ram speeds? :rolleyes:

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2299&p=6

If you look at the huge performance difference between an X800 XT and an X850 XT its less than 5% different in Far Cry. If you look at when they turn on AA and AF the 6800 Ultra falls behind the X800 XT. The X800 XT has a nice sized lead in any of the Half Life 2 benchmarks. The 6800 Ultra hands ATI a huge beating in Doom III. I guess I just dont get anything you said. I mean if your not going to base your posts off of factual information then reconsider posting.

[SolidxSnake]

Since there has been no real testing of the R520 core, only some spectimation(32pipes, 90nm, 600+ mghz core, ect, ect) how can you say that the 7800GTX will dominate the R520? Is your predictions based on anything at all thats factual?

Also the X800 XT did very well against the 6800 Ultra if I remember right, when AA and AF was turned on it was even more competitive, ATI released a X850 series to make more money. Some people even if they have a X800 XT PE will buy a X850 XT PE. The refresh was only around 10% different at most. The X800 XT and X850 XT are not that different. If I a remember correctly isnt the only difference basically the core/ram speeds? :rolleyes:

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2299&p=6

If you look at the huge performance difference between an X800 XT and an X850 XT its less than 5% different in Far Cry. If you look at when they turn on AA and AF the 6800 Ultra falls behind the X800 XT. The X800 XT has a nice sized lead in any of the Half Life 2 benchmarks. The 6800 Ultra hands ATI a huge beating in Doom III. I guess I just dont get anything you said. I mean if your not going to base your posts off of factual information then reconsider posting.


I heard that ATi made the X850 series cause the X800 wasn't competing well. Well, guess I was wrong, huh?

But I still stand by my statement:

ATi will have problems with the change to 90nm dies. It already seems true if you were to read what SSS posted:


The first R520 silicon worked at high speeds but only few chips worked, we hear. Wafers are expensive and each costs roughly $3000 and if only 20 chips work from your wafer that will make a production costs of that chip enormously big. You need a better number to make more money. We heard those numbers a while back and we believe that this is how much Nvidia or ATI has to pay for each wafer.

'Only a few chips worked,' says the article. If that is true, then I see the 7800GTX passing by the r520 in a price/performance ratio, because if ATi stands by its release date, they will have to raise prices (Right?).

And also, if you look at the BF:V and Wolfenstein: ET benchies, you will see that the 6800U is on top, and that the 6800GT beats the X850XT. And at higher resolutions. And which one is cheaper, the X850XTPE? Or the 6800U? I've seen the 6800U go for some nice prices. But I'm not really ATi oriented, so please list prices for the X850XTPE (I don't know any :D)

[Nandro]

I think ATI has already done 3 tape outs on the 520 and I am still in doubt as to wether or not they are going to fall back to less pipes for better yeilds rather than lose any more time with delays. NV did the smart thing and sucked up the smaller profits on a bigger die and gave themselves lots of time to do their shrink and I think this is pressing ATI to scramble the 520 faster than they would like regardless of the current delay. Fact is if the tape out was complete and all, dell would have them already. At least thats my thoughts. I could be dead ass wrong as usual. Like I always say, unless your actually there, its all speculation and anyone could be right.

[Super Nintendo]

ati 3rd tape out of the 520 success from what they say at the inquirer

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=24540

[Nandro]

but even the success is going to be whatever their idea of acceptable rejects is, those being the pro or xl version. My thought are that Dell would have these in their grubby money stained fingers if they were running them. I believe the tape out is done, but yeilds are not what they had hoped and they are going to wind up with a 24 pipe card, and a 32 as a PE or some such stupidity. Again, just my ignorant thoughts. Pay no serious attention to them or anything the INQ says for that matter.