Rockstar Games

[anon1]

Due to the recent discussions of the latest Grand Theft Auto Game, San Andreas, Rockstar Games had stopped production of those games. I feel that they stopped, because if parents were okay with their teens getting M-rated games, they won't be with A/O-Rated Games. What are your opinions on this subject?

[Wicked Klown]

By any chance do you have a link about them stopping GTA. All I heard was they pulled GTA:SA off the shelfs.

[RedDragonXXX]

So does this mean no more GTA games? :(

[anon1]

I don't have a link, although I'm sure that there is one. It was on MTV earlier.

[telexen]

They're only stopping production on ones with the "adult" content in them...they will remove that content and resume production and put that version back on the shelves

[El-Scotto]

all GTA:SA games have been pulled off the store shelves i believe and are being rerated AO (adult only), rockstar has stopped production of the current version and is going to start a new version with out the mod in it or something :/

[TheGreySpectre]

funny thing is both versions will probably be the same to most users, the thing that brought up controversy was a mod. The original modders will proably just come out with a patch for there mod utalizing the 1.0 material so people will have access again, making this entire hullabaloo unecessary

Many parents dont pay attention to the games there children play, so in that respect an Ao rating wouldnt make any difference, however where it does matter is that many stores will not sell Ao rated games

[Element-Xero]

Rockstar should just be straight up and say, yeah, well one of our teams coded some raunchy stuff into this game, but its clearly rated mature 17+ which includes the catagory of sexuality. The people that are up in arms about this either A) have nothing better to do and are looking for a scapegoat into voters favor *coughhillaryclintoncough* or B) Are still in 1982, where all games were oriented towards children and considered children's passtimes.

Wake up america, gaming is a bigger industry (in terms of growth anyways) than Hollywood or the music industry and virtually every other area of entertainment and pop culture. It's beyond a phenomenon and it's here to stay. It's not all Mario and Pac Man anymore. The prime gaming market is now 17-30 year old men not 9 year olds.

AND GUESS WHAT 17-30 YEAR OLD MEN WANT TO SEE?!

Getting ****ed about this is like getting ****ed that there are naked women in the movie Showgirls. Both are clearly not aimed at young children, and if that isn't obvious to you, you shouldn't be allowed to have kids.

It's just a matter of yet more parents not taking responsibility for their lack of parenting and using any scapegoat they can possibly blame but themselves.

my .02

[ju5tin99]

The thing that gets me is, the game should have been rated AO in the first place, even without the hack. GTA III and Vice City deserved their M ratings. Despite the adult themes, Rockstar stopped short of going all the way with the language and some other stuff. I felt that San Andreas took things to a new level from the first time I played it. Now don't get me wrong, I loved it and, being an adult, I had a great time playing it, but I still feel that if I were the one rating it I would have given it the AO right from the beginning. Everybody still would have bought it, Rockstar would have gotten their money, and then this whole mod thing wouldn't have been a big deal at all.

[deathman20]

What ever they do... Give it a few hours, days, or maybe a week or 2 and they'll have the mod back out and running on the R Rated version again.

Totally stupid.

Guessing they won't make a similar mistake about removing code when they release the next GTA. Personally I think its BS either way...
1) you have to have an internet connection (gotta be 18 or got access to it at least)
2) you gotta search for the mod (although its been talked about lots its out there now)
3) you gotta download it and install it
4) you gotta go and actually do something ingame to make it happen

Pathetic, see this is what happens when parents or senitors got nothing better to do, they go back to Rockstar and target them for some BS claim that they suppositly included a feature that was locked and unaccessable without a hack.

[flixotide]

Regardless of the GTA:SA title, I feel this is still a good move. GTA:SA crossed the line if you ask me, when it comes to game content.

I don't mind games being fun, nor do I mind them being either scary or morbid for that matter, but I still feel that GTA:SA crosses the line of what kids should be playing.

Cheers, Flix

[blitzkrieg1110]

here is a link with more info on the subject: http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/20/news_6129500.html

[moorcito]

The idea that I don't agree with in some on the articles about this on some gaming sites is that Rockstar isn't to blame because it was hackers that did this. There are lots of games that don't include certain "features" that are added later by the modding community, ie. nude skins for certain FPS, the Sims, etc.

Yes, Rockstar will release the game again with out the dirty bits, and probably the modders will just create a mod that adds those parts back in, but the difference is that after the reissue Rockstar wasn't the one who put the dirty parts in the games. It's kind of like a movie studio releasing a video rated PG-13/R and then someone figures out that after hitting a certain number of controls on your remote your DVD will play the uncut rated X version of the movie. Who's to blame? The hacker who figures out the sequence of buttons to push, or the movie studio who tried to sell a movie knowing that you could see a version that's rated differently that what was labled on the box.

Maybe all of Rockstar didn't know the content was there in the game, but companies are responsible for the product that they sell.

[KillrBuckeye]

Why do people keep bringing up Hillary Clinton with respect to this subject??? Yes some Democrats have advocated censorship of certain media, but FFS it's the conservatives and their evangelical Christian constituents who are the most notorious for this type of crap. Leave it to the right-wingers to twist the facts surrounding any situation and blame it on the liberals... LOL.

[Element-Xero]

I still feel that GTA:SA crosses the line of what kids should be playing.

SO THEN DON'T ****ING LET YOUR KIDS PLAY IT!!

WHY DOES EVERYONE WANT SOME BLANKET AGENCY TO CONTROL EVERYTHING INSTEAD OF STEPPING IN AND RAISING THEIR OWN KIDS?!?!?!

/execute self


Why do people keep bringing up Hillary Clinton


Because she is using this as a hot-button issue where she can step in and "be the hero", and save the world from innappropriate videogames. She has lead the charge on Rockstar and has been the primary media spokesperson/mouthpiece/soundbyte person.

Also, leave it to an extremist black and white thinker to assume I'm right wing because I have a problem with *A* democrat. Not to get horribly off-topic, but you are suffering from the same mentality in reverse that you critique "right wingers" for. I am generally extremely leftist, if I had to choose a party I'd say probably somewhere between liberatarians and democrats.

You are seeing the political world in black and white, my friend, and that's precisely what's going wrong with this country. Issues, people, events, policy; its all obscured when you see only red and blue, republican or democrat. That's what keeps people villifying one side or the other; WHINEY LIBERAL INNEFFECTUALS, or EVANGELIST PSYCHO CORPORATE ***** REPUBLICANS. There's a million generalizing statements about either side.

And you know what? Both sides are pretty full of ****.

Starts with you and me, bro. Politics should be shades of grey, issue by issue.

[darkknight187]

Regardless of the GTA:SA title, I feel this is still a good move. GTA:SA crossed the line if you ask me, when it comes to game content.

I don't mind games being fun, nor do I mind them being either scary or morbid for that matter, but I still feel that GTA:SA crosses the line of what kids should be playing.

Cheers, Flix

The logic behind this seems broken to me, the ONLY thing that will be removed is the naughty parts section that was previously locked. and then of course all of rockstars free publicity.

To the 2nd half of your argument it's clearly marked M for Mature which translates to 17 or at the discretion of the parents. at 15 i walked into some place i think it was a "toy warehouse" and purchased GTA3, my parents although not with me didnt care because their opinion based on how i was raised was that at age 15 i had the maturity level to play this game. I have not stole a car, did a drive by or anything in these games....maybe the new standard should be like a huge slightly see through ESRB rating imprinted on the plastic wrap of a game in addition to the corner part, i mean then atleast parents would almost have to see it unless they are blind.

[KillrBuckeye]

I haven't been following the issue that closely--I was unaware that Hillary was leading the charge. LOL, I am not an extremist by any means. All I know is that I am worried about many of the freedoms that we have taken for granted, as they seem to be threatened by those who want to legislate their religious beliefs. It just so happens that most of these people are Republicans. I don't see how you can deny that. Religious belief is the driving force behind the "indecency" movement that is going on right now. If you can point to another source, please enlighten me.

[Element-Xero]

I'd say the freedoms slow destruction was set in motion long ago and transcends the arbitrary distinction of republican Vs. Democrat.

I agree with you that its a problem but I disagree that its based on ONE side and not government, its influence, and people's attitude towards it in GENERAL.

But again, this is massively OT :P

[SlipViper]

Child/Children means to me any person around or under the age of 12.

I have been following this for the past month since I heard about it, and my opinions are as follows:

1. It was an M Rated game to begin with, and a well deserved one at that. That means anybody playing it that is under the age of 17 has had to have it bought for them [there are always exceptions so don't jump on me for saying that]. Target Stores actually for a while now has not allowed anyone with out proof of age (ID) to buy an M rated game. Hillary Clinton stating and I quote "It's a disgrace that Rock* games has given children direct access to pornography." I'm sorry, but if I had a child I would not allow them to go to R rated movies, and I definetly would not go out and buy them an M rated game in the first place. *jeez*

2. Even if you are allowing your child to play this game and they are under 17, the porn part has to be "modded" to get to. Which means, unlike Hillary said, that it is not at direct access!!!! This is like saying they should rate UT2k4 Adults Only because of the nude models/skins people create for them!!! :bang head :bang head

3. The amount of effort some random person put into this is the same amount of effort that people put into making skins for UT2k4. Not only that, but in this case, the person had to literally REVERSE ENGINEER code to get everything to work right. I don't know about you, but if you have ever tried to Reverse Engineer something, its f'n hard!! Ever see an 8 year old kid reprogram a computer program? No, I didn't think so... :mad:

4. This is a PC only problem. Yes, the content is on all the disks, but you can't really get to them because the footage on PS2's is on an unchangeable dvd format. But this does not mean you can't extract footage from a dvd. You can do about 100 lines of code on Game Cheat Disk (PS2), then loose your saved data, and only then do you get only a minor part of what the PC mod does. Again, people are writing code for this to happen.

5. ?:Rumor:? I read this somewhere, just can't remember where. The Hot Coffee mod actually had to be recoded to fully finish the Nude Women Model in the first place, which if/when you see the footage, looks exactly like a UT2k4 Skin. This also means that if the skin wasn't complete, and this Hot Coffee was released, it would be a man having x-rated geometry with a bunch of squares and triangles.

If you want to see this footage, I have the video for it. PM and I'll link you up.

:attn: MODS, can I post a link to my webspace, or is this a "too sensitive topic."

/rant/
IT IS THE PARENTS RESPONSIBILITY TO MONITOR THEIR CHILD'S ACTIVITIES.

[ckj]

I don't understand how the polititians can waste their time on mindless issues like this. We should ask hilary to do the hot coffee mod herself. I bet she couldn't, at least without help. Then we can ask her is a kid smarter than her?

It's really annoying that we have to be subjected to this stupid argument when there are so many more problems. I mean, I think MTV is more detrimental than the contents of this mod. And personally, I lean just slightly democrat but more than anything I love freedom. So hilary better not run for president or the republican just got my vote. (As long as he isn't more extreme)

[dfonda]

Agree with everyone who says it should have been rated AO from the beginning. Being 44 years old I just find the cursing annoying(can not play till after daughter goes to bed). I find the fact that cartoon murder and mayhem gets a lower rating then cartoon sex quite funny and also typical. Lets face it, the INTERNET is a minefield for way worse stuff.

[Falcon-K]

I don't mind games being fun, nor do I mind them being either scary or morbid for that matter, but I still feel that GTA:SA crosses the line of what kids should be playing.
Cheers, Flix


Well, the thing is kids are not supposed to be playing it to begin with. Its rated 17+ and I really dont consider a 17 yr old too young, hell I think a 15yr old can play this game. They will have seen way more porn, killing ect from the rest of the internet and movies out there already.

I mean seriously, when was the first time most of you saw/had your first sexual experience? Probably before the age of 17. When kids are HAVING sex at age 14. What impact does a game that has horrible graphics simulating sex have on a kid? Will this game make a 16 year old boy want to have sex more? I would highly doubt ANYTHING could make a 16 year old boy want to have sex more than the raging hormones he already has.I would say this would have absolutly NO effect on me when I was 14 let alone 17.

[Element-Xero]

Will this game make a 16 year old boy want to have sex more? I would highly doubt ANYTHING could make a 16 year old boy want to have sex more

= rofl

and true.

[madcow235]

ESRB needs to get their heads screwed on straight. A game that has you blowing peoples heads off in quite a gory fashion for no reason gets an M. A really really really crappy porn mod, that will most likely be posted on a site filled with porn ads, gets a AO.
Explain the logic. I'm not asking for stricter ratings im asking for more sensible ones.
Also its funny a movie like Titanic, super old but comes to mind, has a set of boobs in it, about as far as the hot cofee mod goes, but thats suitable for a 13 year old?????? Or a movie like the passion that is EXTREMELY VIOLENT is suitable for a 17 year old but boobs arent?

[darkknight187]

I mean seriously, when was the first time most of you saw/had your first sexual experience? Probably before the age of 17. When kids are HAVING sex at age 14.

actually from a recent MAXIM survey most males don't have their first sexual experience until around 17, 18 or higher, although about 15-25% had it before then alot of their survey says that it's at a bit older of age than thought of, of course theres about a 5yr average skew based on generations ect, but things normally don't just flip right around.

[Janus67]

no, Rockstar will be coming out with a new version taht doesn't have the Ao rated content (sex mod files in the game installation) but until they fix it a lot of stores won't have it.

[Elif Tymes]

If Hillary gets her way in this, we will slip ever closer to the "Legislated Responsibility" that makes our country exactly like socialism.

She is attempting to turn the government into our parents. Completely foolish and idiotic, no matter which side of the political "fence" you sit on.

[telexen]

If Hillary gets her way in this, we will slip ever closer to the "Legislated Responsibility" that makes our country exactly like socialism.

She is attempting to turn the government into our parents. Completely foolish and idiotic, no matter which side of the political "fence" you sit on.

She just wants to set herself up for 2008...so she's acting retarded. It's not like it's only her bitching about this issue though...it's really just one side (you know which) ... and then hillary.

[TheGame240]

Of course the ultimate blame still falls onto R* for not completely removing the material before release instead of simply locking it. I realize that it probably was a "remove this and delay release or just lock it out and release on time" type of situation, but it could have avoided a lot of this. Of course all the free publicity will help the game sell and I wouldn't be surprised if there were still copies on a lot of store shelves.

That being said I think the easiest thing to do would be to slightly modify the rating system. Change the M rating to 18+. The reason I say this is that at 18 you're an adult. Other than the purchase of alcohol (which I've never really understood) you can go and die for your country, vote, watch R rated movies, etc, etc. So I doubt that any content in a video game would be inappropriate for anyone that age. Secondly, there should be punishments in place for retailers who don't follow the rating system. A few stiff fines would probably stop any minors from purchasing the game (for the most part) and if parents buy games like this for their children then they have absolutely no right to complain about any of the content.

[ThePerfectCore]

"Locking" content in a PC game, assuming it'll never be found, and then selling it to millions is very much like "locking" one's self in a cardboard box in an attempt to avoid the immediate destructive effects of a nuclear blast.

gg Rockstar.

[TheGreySpectre]

IMO how it should be:

ESRB MOVIE
AO NC-17
M R
T PG 13
E PG
C G


Now lets compare M to R both reccomend Age 17, and generally rated that way for the same reasons, why would you let your kid play and M game if you wont let them see an R movie, and R movies have way more sex in them then M games (can't speak for the Hot Coffee Mod, as I havnt seen It)

If having a game where you have to mod and do a variety of other things is like giving a child direct access to porn then taking them to an R movie is like buying a prostitute for your kid.

In other news has anyone seen the article that now there going after the Sims 2 for having nude mods, (theres already a thread up on the forums that has a link) I mean are they going to outlaw PC video games because most of them have some sort of user created adult only mod?

This is getting absurd

And please lets try and stay out of politics as much as possible, I dont want to have a flame war / closed thread

[TheGreySpectre]

"Locking" content in a PC game, assuming it'll never be found, and then selling it to millions is very much like "locking" one's self in a cardboard box in an attempt to avoid the immediate destructive effects of a nuclear blast.

gg Rockstar.


Assuming your not the guy creating the mod, do you have to do any less work to get this mod than to get a purely user created mod.

If anything Max Payne 2 was WAY worse in terms of ease of access then GTASA, in max payne 2 you didnt even have to install a Mod. but nobody went berserk about that game claiming we were giving kids access to porn.

Im convinced the reason this has happened is because AntiVideo game politicians (both liberal and conservative) first of all have been working against GTA since it first came out, and second of all found something they could latch onto to work against the video game industry and now that they got a hold of it they have a death grip on it.

P.S.
Sorry for the double post

[Dreamstalker]

I'm getting a bit tired of ridiculous lawsuits...

My mom just read that GTA was pulled from the market (saw an ad that Target ran saying it would no longer be sold) and immediately asked why, then when I tried to explain--in the simplest technical terms I could, mentioning nothing about the actual content--cut me off saying that "that game promotes the killing of police officers" (then cited the case of the 18 year old, who IMO had deeper issues than just the game) and went on a diatribe basically saying that she's against anything that condones any form of violence :confused:

My attempting to explain a) the relative difficulty required to access said content and b) that the majority of people know fantasy from reality did nothing.

Gee...I used to play the original Dark Forces incessantly and she never complained.

[RP Racing]

I mean, I think MTV is more detrimental than the contents of this mod.


exactly. but you wont see hillary 'my dog is smarter than me' clinton going after mtv or the current teenie booper rappers and britney spear clones. mtv and a majority of the 'artists' funnels ALOT of money to the democratic party.

parents should be monitoring their kids activities. but they dont. some dont even care. but yet if a kid does something heinous, the parents and polititians are quick to toss blame at others instead of the person who commited the crime. personal responsibility is pretty much a lot cause in this country.

[TheGreySpectre]

Im not sure how much this publicity will help the game sell. well most publicity is good, even if its bad press, this is coupled with removing GTA off most store shelves, at least for the time being

[Element-Xero]

Just FYI, socialism != facist dictation of what is and is not acceptable. I'm hardly a socialist but I feel that your perception of the idea is somewhat warped.

This is just the latest iteration of an America changing its face from land of the free to the idealogical iron fist enforced with the steel-toed boot of a corrupt court and government; from freedom of speech and expression to idealogical- and relgious-inspired hardline standards of right and wrong. It's no longer for you to decide what is right and wrong for you or your children; look to the Almighty Government. Trust them unquestioningly.

Sex and sexuality is far more unacceptable here, despite the fact that sexuality is something that every single human life shares. Nobody dislikes sex; and aside from the impulsive intercourse of an unfaithful lover, sex is victimless; beautiful.

Violence, something that only the twisted, vengeful, jealous, psychopathic and/or angry can truly revel in, is perfectly acceptable not only in adults, but in children. Our society as a whole (and indeed many before it) embrace violence as a way of life. The road of the past that lead to this moment in time is paved with blood and bone; a million slaughters inflated and branded with great honor, their murderers heralded as heros and imprinted on the minds of the people as a medal on a soldiers chest. This attitude of violence glorified that affects us all (including, of course, myself...CS:S anyone? BF2? etc...), this mindset bred into us by a vast history of war and gory heroics is what arrives us at this notion that Violence < Sex in terms of offense. We cheer and laugh to ourselves at the sight of a decapitation in a film, yet we squirm with discomfort and social unease during a softcore love scene.

I urge you all to consider the net effect this has on society. Sex is embarassment, a dirty necesity (puritanical remnants, anyone?). Violence, murder, war, hate, unicentricly driven taking of human life: perfectly acceptable. A morbid joke, a delerious bloodstained smirk echoing the shadows of a hundred action movies and inflated tales of war and honor and respect.

If we are to advance socially, morally, as a body of individual humans with utmost respect for eachother's lives; if we are to rise and grow we need to rethink these ideas. These are the ideals of ancient rome, or a war tribe.

We are far less advanced than our technological accomplishments would lead you to believe.

[Captain Newbie]

For what it's worth, most of us have more sense than anyone in the mainstream. That's why we're here, because we can discuss these issues in ways that make sense.

Short points:
-America seems to have no problem with violence, and a big problem with sex.
-Parents don't parent their kids anymore and this industry should not be held responsible for their failure to properly raise their children
-Rockstar needs to clean up their act, or at least fess up and say "Yes, we ****ed up. Sorry 'bout that."
-Good going, R*!
-(Politics slightly reserved, but Element Xero summed it up) This is an inherently political issue, with people who are just hunting for something to latch onto.
-We do have a lot of problems, but the least of them is the content in a video game.
-If you can't separate the video game from reality, then you're screwed up in the head.

[SlipViper]

Has anyone even seen the same SINGLES???? It is like the Sims, but rated AO, because basically the point is to have sex, Sims style, and either pair up for the nite, or for life. It is graphic, and if it floats your boat, good for you.

It is still a video game, but nobody is harpin on it cuz it is already AO, which means stores won't carry it, thus keeping it out of reach of kids. But if a kid comes home with GTA:SA, I'm sorry, that is the parents fault!!!! :mad:

Way to go Target though! *props* If you don't already know, Target WILL NOT sell an M rated game to people w/out ID.

:attn:
^ w00t!
v Agreed!

[HeatM1ser2k4]

I saw the sex scene,and I have mixed feelings on it.One one hand,GTA was already the most controversal games out the for issues like beating up prostitudes after you have sex with them and stealing your money back.The sex scene had a guy forcing the girls head while performing felatio...so,not only was sex implied,but forcefully,too.I for get what the guy was saying to the girl,but I think it was pretty raunchy....

Its is,after all, rated for Mature audiences...so I am confused as to which side to take...so I'll take a different stand:Improve the game rating system so that parents know exactly what they are buying their 10 or 12 year old kids.People relate video game ratings to movie ratings...which tells me that people are confused about the games rating and what it implies.Also, blame the parents of these children for not taking the appropriate measures to monitor and be aware of their childrens internet usage.They so make software AND hardware to aid in this.Sure,its easy to blame the video game makers....but everyone seems to be forgetting the perents responsibilities here,as well as the faults of the ratings system.

I'll hopst the video for you to view...itsa only about 5.5 MB....Click the link below to download it (Need Winrar):
GTA Hidden Scene(For ages 18+) (http://streaming.flushnet.com/users/heatm1ser/GTA%20Sex%20Scene.rar)

[Stavros]

Want to know something that's funny Dreamstalker? She claims that she's against violence of any kind, correct? Well, you have to use violence to protect freedom. See what she says about that.

[Element-Xero]

Well, you have to use violence to protect freedom.

FALLACY ALERT!

[Stavros]

Fill me in.

[Edit] True violence is not always the solution, but if a dictator took over do you really think he'd put up with protest of any kind be it peaceful or otherwise?

[Captain Newbie]

__STANDARD_POLITICAL_WARNING__

I have reviewed the scene in question and I can say...so what?

Maddox has an article on the subject. I think we Americans need to grow the hell up.

[Element-Xero]

Of course there will always be extreme circumstances when life and death need to be taken in-hand in order to to protect freedom and overcome agressors with ill-intentions. In a perfect world (which is obviously far from what we live in), no violence would be necesary because people would attempt to coexist before they attempted to conquer.

Since this is obviously not a utopia, and conquerer's ambitions can be backed by a runaway government's vast military power, violence to oppose the advancing power may be necesary.

It is interesting to note here, upons reflection, that it is our runaway government that, under the orders of one man, attempted to conquer a weakling nation. They, having their way of life compromised, responded with violence, killing many of our brave soldiers. This is the exact same rationale that I get from you. It goes both ways; we aren't the objective "good guys", because there are no "good guys" in war. We, for whatever reason, killed thousands of innocent people, and in return we paid for it with attacks from extremists.

Now, imagine the USA was as powerless as Iraq was, and say, N Korea invaded us, utterly destroying us without much effort. Would you become an extremist? Killing their brave, if misled or mentally conditioned, soldiers?

I would say you probably would.

Now, I absolutely do not condone terrorism or justify it in any way. The idea is that terrorism is a slightly more irrational and less efficient form of what our, and every other, military does every day. We are just used to a culture that sees military power as something to be revered, celebrated. We are used to seeing soldier as honorable, to the point of being gods among men (although our political policy to benefit veterans is horrible and shows anything but respect and admiration, its purely lip service, but thats another convo for another day)

My point is that who is "good" or "bad" in a war is subjective, and depends on how the war effects you, your way of life, and your general perception of when killing is right. Our culture happens to say that killing your next door neighbor with an assault rifle because he abused your sister is wrong, and you will likely go to jail for life, or a long time.

Yet, dropping devestatingly powerful bombs on a city full of civilians until the streets are littered with childrens body parts and blood is celebrated on CNN and MSNBC. We all gather round the Holy Television and watch in awe as our revered military puts on a magestic display of light and power. We see this as justified, evne righteous, because, after all, "this is war". That phrase, "this is war", think of the association of it. It fills our heads with a thousand glorified images; a ruddy flag raised by young men on a war-torn battlefield, the triumphant return of our military veterans, parades and movies, folk songs and books and etcetera ad infinitum into the ends of our culture!

This is a celebration of murder. Sometimes, its the last available option to protect the peace and freedom of the world; these are the times that its justified, these are the times when murder is the only way. Other times its for trivial political gain. But its glorification over the years has made it weightless; lighter than air it floats through the mind; a vague idea that carries the connotation of 300 years of artificial inflation. This the point where we can be utterly apathetic about war, the killing of other people from strange lands; unless one of ours goes down, of course. "Our boys" are given the weight, the heaviest stone makes the biggest crater when its dropped, no? The atomic bombs we dropped on Japan caused millions of casualties, and genetic mutation to this day. Almost all civilians, people like you and I trying to work and make a living.

America barely flinched. We celebrated. We won; our great majestic military found a way to harness the mystical power of the atom and we triumphed over our enemies.

Nobody stopped to consider the cost.

This is a muddled, dangerous playing field when you are dealing with human life lost. My entire point, basically, is that violence towards other people cannot be taken lightly. But here, it seems, it is. As long as it doesn't hit too close to home, that is. If there was one murder in your city after 20 years without a violent crime you would be nervous walking alone at night, you'd think about it heavily. Hundreds to thousands of murders every day in a war, but they are wrapped up in a nice, non-upsetting faceless package on CNN.

I suppose my thought is, be careful what you justify for something as subjective and culturally specific as "freedom".

And to relate this rambling thought-plosion back to the GTA public outcry, consider this:

What got more attention, which was more demonized, for the last few weeks?
Sex in games or the higher-than-ever daily casualty count in Iraq? We hear about war like we hear about a sports game, a playoff where as long as we are still winning we can maintain and be okay with it. We hear about sex like its a cursed poisonous demon stalking behind us and threatening to clamp down on our children with its venomous phallic teeth.

Just some thoughts that poured out, appologize for the various off-topic-ness.

-EX-

[Stavros]

Actually I commend you for you well-planned and thought out response to my shabby response. I guess what I meant to mean was our basic freedoms. Thinking back on it I'm not exactly sure what I mean by freedoms, but I'm sure glad for the freedoms I do have however ****ed I may be at our government.

[Edit] And I agree with Maddox. Americans need to grow up.