Dangit! Methanol is expensive

[71skylark]

OK, The coolant for my new system is probably going to get below 32F since I'm using the outside cold to chill it, and the best liquid to use for heat transfer and anti-freezing is methanol/water. I've only found one place that sells methanol online, worldwideracingfuels.com and they want $10.40/gal shipped! Anyone know of a place I can get it for less?

[Crash893]

anti freeze

wont any sort of alchool work

try rubbing alchol thats like 10 cents a gallon

[Fink]

You can get methanol from sigma-aldrich, $55/gallon. A quick search on google turned up about 10 different sources for bulk methanol, some as low as $5/gallon.

Don't know why you would want to use methanol. It has a low boiling point, a high vapor pressure and poor heat carrying capacity. Three strikes, your out. Antifreeze, ethylene glycol or propylene glycol would be a much better choices.

[71skylark]

Fink, your awesome! I made my decision based on rockstarbob's table. I am putting my radiator/resivoir outside my house here in new england this winter where it gets below 0 many nights the winter. according the table, methanol is better flowing, heat conducting, and I need less of it mixed with water to keep the freezing temp the same as compared to glycol based substances.

[The Overclocker]

it is also sort of bangerous, what about refirgerant?

[Shep]

If you know anybody that has a race car or racing go kart just ask if you can buy some from them. Shouldn't be a problem most racers are nice people.

[Warlord2]

Im sure you could just mix 30% anti-freeze in and you wouldnt need to worry about freezing

your temps are going to be cold enough and you should even need to worry with flowrate and heat transfers=]

I dont think it would make more thin a 3c difference anyways

[Oni]

Or, you could just use water and a water wetter. But you wouldn't wanna be simple and cheep now, would you?

[William]

rubbing alcohol will do the same thing as would ethanol. Antifreeze would be excellent as well. Even Salt would lower the freezing point of water.

[71skylark]

Here is my reasoning:
Rockstarbob's coolant chart (http://languagehammer.net/images/superchart.gif)

[RangerJoe34]

that chart....you cannot see anything

try again

[CrystalMethod]

Originally posted by Shep
If you know anybody that has a race car or racing go kart just ask if you can buy some from them. Shouldn't be a problem most racers are nice people.
Yes, most of us are nice. I'll hand out just about anything anyone needs, head gaskets, piston rings, batteries, tires and rims, but we all know that race fuel doesn't come cheap. My car doesn't run on methanol, but some of my buddies that run sprint cars use it. It's pretty expensive. Considering that you would be running a closed system, and it would be a one time expense. I'd just dish out the cash for it if you really want to use it. But, like some of the others have stated, "WHY?".

[train22]

Originally posted by RangerJoe34
that chart....you cannot see anything

try again

you are using WinXP arn't you? hold your mouse over the pic for a few secs and then press the expand button to expand the pic, XP automaticly shrinks it to fit to page, you can disable that if you want.

[William]

you should get similar or better results with a isopropol and water mixture as Isopropol has a better heat capacity. On the other hand, the difference isn't huge and isn't going to make a huge difference in your temps at all. I would go with isopropol or antifreeze mixture and take the money you save and spend it on some better hardware.

[r0ckstarbob]

hey guys, here's the updated chart with updated figures. i apologize for it being a little bit bigger then before but it's certainly more comprehensive. i hope this is helpful in answering your questions between Ethylene Glycol, Methanol, Ethanol and Isopropyl. i still haven't been able to find the Thermal Conductivity values for isopropyl alcohol, but considering that its twice as thick as water anyhow, the Thermal Conductivity would have to be something really astounding to increase the Thermal Differential coefficient to comparable levels.

http://www.speakeasy.org/~language/pictures/superchart.gif

just a note about heat capacity

heat capacity is a figure only to take into consideration when in reference to the thermal conductivity. the relationship with one another is represented in the Thermal Differential. The higher the overall thermal differential the better. in this new chart, i've included the Thermal Differential column with the rest of the chart to help show how it relates. the numbers pretty much speak for themselves.

good luck y'all.

RSB

[r0ckstarbob]

http://languagehammer.net/images/superchart.gif

backup file

[William]

hey rockstarbob, you want me to get that info tomorrow and get it to you, I can look it up in the CRC or Merck.

[r0ckstarbob]

you mean for the isopropyl? yeah, that would actually rock. seriously, if anyone can provide some hard facts to facilitate the completion of this, man i'm all up for it. and if theres something there on the chart that seems to be glaringly wrong, please lemme know and we can try to find out what it is and whats up and get things straightened out. i just want correct and accurate figures, i'm not sold on one or the other. currently my numbers are all showing a 33:66 ratio methanol/water coolant rocking the casbah so thats what i'm running with. i've got about 20 different sources for the info so i'm pretty certain they're accurate (and has been confirmed by a couple of other kids alot more knowlegeable about this stuff then myself just to make sure).

but the fact is i didn't run the tests and didn't personally get the figures so i have to assume a whole bunch of other people alot smarter then myself and unconnected to one another all running the same tests and getting similar results are probably gonna be on the money. regardless its an assumption. so if you've got different info, please, please, please, feel free to send it my way either here on the forums or feel free to email me at language@speakeasy.net.

i'd rather put up correct information and provide an accurate resource that other people (myself included) can use to answer these kinds of questions. i don't know if you've looked around for direct comparisons of these liquids in particular when used in computer cooling, but they're simply not around. nobodys done this before (or at least not done it and posted it anywhere i could find in three entire weeks of research) but these substances in particular are the very ones we consider using in computer cooling more often then not, and the ones that seem to bear the most relavance to our particular goals. as far as i'm concerned, the more accurate input i can get and the more people involved with this when compiling the data, the better. so if you got it, give it! :)

and questions are more then welcome if some part is confusing or whathaveyou.

just no flaming. ;)

and if y'all want i can crunch some numbers for y'all if you're considering using any of the other alcohols or substances that i have on that chart to give you some comparison figures like i did with the methanol/water and glycol/water solutions. hell, i might even work up a database or a spreadsheet that does it automatically if theres enough demand.

hmmm. things to think about i guess, huh?

[r0ckstarbob]

Originally posted by William
hey rockstarbob, you want me to get that info tomorrow and get it to you, I can look it up in the CRC or Merck.

just make sure you're looking for the figures for 2-Propynol (which is the real name for Isopropyl (rubbing) Alcohol).

apparently theres some confusion when they named this stuff because apparently REAL isopropyl is something very different (i've recently found out). regardless, 2-Propynol is the comparable substance we're looking for.

okay, this might just blow my crediblity to hell but...

whats the CRC and Merck again? incredibly familiar names but forget what they are. sorry. my head is about to pop with all the data rattling around in there right now. it's why i've got 4 or 5 notebooks now... to help me keep track of it all!!!

:)

[SavageHenry]

CRC and Merck are reference books . . . CRC publishes a bunch of different ones, and Merck is pretty much the chemistry bible.

[Crash893]

couldnt you just fill a bag with rubing alchool
thorw it out in the yard see if it freezes?

or stick a temp probe in a bag of anit freeze and a probe in a bag of rubbing alchool and see witch one dissapates its heat quicker.

[r0ckstarbob]

Originally posted by SavageHenry
CRC and Merck are reference books . . . CRC publishes a bunch of different ones, and Merck is pretty much the chemistry bible.

haha!

<------ duh

i knew that. thanks.

[Fink]

It is not 2-propynol, it is 2-propanol

The first name indicates that there is an alkyne in the molecule and 5 bonds to carbon at the two position, which we all know is, outside of some esoteric P-chem lab, a virtual imposibility.

2-Propanol is the correct naming for isopropyl alcohol.

[r0ckstarbob]

ah. thanks for the tip.

[Shep]

When Methanol is left in a container for a period of time a fungus of some sort will grow in it, it looks like a white slime, this could cause major problems with pumps and clogged pipes. I don't know if it will do the same when mixed with water or if constantly kept moving.

[r0ckstarbob]

open container or closed container? could this be oxydization with the air?

[JetMech]

Originally posted by Shep
When Methanol is left in a container for a period of time a fungus of some sort will grow in it, it looks like a white slime, this could cause major problems with pumps and clogged pipes. I don't know if it will do the same when mixed with water or if constantly kept moving. I use methanol as a cleaning agent during a manufacturing process at work. It is stored in a squeeze bottle and little used 24/7. I have never noticed anything other than a crystal clear appearance. If it does fall victim to a foreign substance it requires a very extended time to do so. Add motion of the fluid and I think the threat if any to be minimal.

[Krome]

use tequila, it doesn't freeze. :rolleyes:

[r0ckstarbob]

Originally posted by crash893
couldnt you just fill a bag with rubing alchool
thorw it out in the yard see if it freezes?

or stick a temp probe in a bag of anit freeze and a probe in a bag of rubbing alchool and see witch one dissapates its heat quicker.

with the proper electronic measuring equipment, the proper amount of time to devote to it, a static unchanging environment in which to guage the effects against, and several dozen tests, yes it's certainly possible to get some rough estimate. i lack all those standards however so am reduced to standing on the shoulders of giants who know more then i do to provide me with accurate data.

:)

[krakerman]

i think shep may be right about the fungus growing... i recently took up some very bootleg moonshining for fun, to see how hard it was. my second batch i made (and no i didnt drink it, i buy the stuff i drink) had a slimy white material in it. it appeared to grow some, or condense (i thought at first it was just some precipitate and maybe i could filter it out). as i used corn, with fiberous things being (i think) a good source for conversion into methanol (as opposed to life-giving ethanol), its possible that this substance i produced was a fungus that can live in methanol. good to know, as miniscule amounts of methanol can cause blindess or death!

[r0ckstarbob]

*chuckle*

okay, i'm seriously not trying to be a jerk, i'm just trying to get this straight...

so... you had a bunch of corn and made some bootleg liquor out back in the shed and when you an jeb (sorry couldn't resist) got done, you had some filmy white stuff on the top of yer booze after the distillment process?

or

you opened a brand new can of methanol - a product with a shelf life of "till the second comming of christ" and when you opened the can of methanol, it had white filmy stuff on the top?


i mean i really don't know so thats why i'm asking. i've never ever heard of fungus growth in any kind of alcohol other than distilled alcohol, and not for methanol in a sealed container. i mean if it's true, thats cool because then we can deal with it. but i guess my thought is this. is it possible that, in an open container, if left open for too long, the alcohol begins to evaporate. if enough of it evaporates is it possible that it might leave a tiny amount of residue on the surface? is it possible thats what we're lookin at?

i'm curious. i mean i've dealt with alot of methanol and i've never ever heard or even seen anything like this, so my interest is certainly piqued.

[71skylark]

Just found window de-icer at a local auto parts store, says protects down to -35, main ingredient: methanol. Price, $1.50/gal and its 33% methanol. So I just found $4.50/gal methanol. However, I just hope this stuff doesn't have soapy gunk in it that will plug the system in it. Anyone tried a windshield washer filled cooling system yet?

[William]

Originally posted by 71skylark
Just found window de-icer at a local auto parts store, says protects down to -35, main ingredient: methanol. Price, $1.50/gal and its 33% methanol. So I just found $4.50/gal methanol. However, I just hope this stuff doesn't have soapy gunk in it that will plug the system in it. Anyone tried a windshield washer filled cooling system yet?

does it have stuff besides methanol in it? That could hurt your temps. Forgot to do the CRC lookup, will do it tomorrow.

[Shep]

I think the fungus maybe a reaction with stuff in the air, if we leave methonal in the gas tank on the go Karts it will grow this stuff and will clogg the screen filters. I think it may be ok in a completly closed system but just wanted to let you guys know it could be a problem.

[William]

i had some methanol blow up on me in the chem lab, thank god it never got TOO close to me. I was the only one that actually remained calm, everyone else frieked out, lol.

[*spazzed*]

Originally posted by Shep
When Methanol is left in a container for a period of time a fungus of some sort will grow in it, it looks like a white slime, this could cause major problems with pumps and clogged pipes. I don't know if it will do the same when mixed with water or if constantly kept moving.

I've noticed that happening on my friends intake......it's not really mold though, more like a hard coating on the aluminum. It does come off with regular gas though. You should see what happens to a race engine when you put regular gas in it....heheheh "blub, *sputter, sputter* blub" hehehe.

[71skylark]

OK, I cheaped out. I just took 4 gals of used anti-freeze home from work (free, I work at a garage) to use in the cooling system. I figure 1-2 gals a day for a couple of weeks0 should do it. I also took home 5 5-gallon pales with tops to use as a resivoir outside my house instead of buying a radiator I'm just going to use the large mass of the water and 50ft of tubing out in the snow(when it comes). I'm putting all my money into the peltiers and waterblocks.

[r0ckstarbob]

Originally posted by Shep
I think the fungus maybe a reaction with stuff in the air, if we leave methonal in the gas tank on the go Karts it will grow this stuff and will clogg the screen filters. I think it may be ok in a completly closed system but just wanted to let you guys know it could be a problem.

thanks for the heads-up shep. :)

[m1066ad]

Since alcohols have a low boiling temp, I'd think, with some ingenuity, a person could make a sort of low-pressure refrigerating setup with it...not on the order of a freon, or ammonia setup, but enough to make a real, measurable difference. Besides, if worse came to worse, and ya got a tad overenthusiastic, if ya use PGA, you could always drown yer sorrows;)

[r0ckstarbob]

hey william

any luck on that CRC lookup?

pm me or email me if you like.

language@speakeasy.net

[riprock]

I new to all this and read rockstarbob's info on methanol/water.
Does methanol work like water wetter and protect against corrosion?
Can you put water wetter into the mix without the methanol having a bad reaction to it?
Would it be worth putting WW into the meth/water mix?

I'm designing a sys very much like Jason Padrick's sys that was linked on oc.com's front page a few days ago. Went to HD and got the pipe and fittings, ordered an '87 Chevette heater core for $25 with shipping, going with dangerden maze2-1 and the eheim 1048. Going to put a ys-tech 130cfm 120mm fan on the core.

I'll most likely run methanol/water but would like to protect against corrosion.

Oh yeah, what effect would methanol have on the innards of a pump?

[r0ckstarbob]

someone asked that in this thread here and we kinda went through it.

check it out
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=251405

go through that and see if that doesn't answer your question. if it still doesn't make sense, just say the word and i'll try to adress it directly.

RSB

PS welcome to the fourms

[riprock]

Good info over there. Still no info on how, if at all, methanol reacts with silicone tubing.

I looked up a bunch of info and while I didn't find any saying "silicone and methanol are happy together", neither did I find anything saying "methanol and silicone don't get along"...

I haven't found anyone saying they're using water wetter with the 30/70 meth/water mixture nor could I find anything saying WW and Meth don't get along...

Anyone out there know anything about this?

[r0ckstarbob]

when i emailed the Redline about the use of water wetter they said that it would work just fine and there wouldn't be anything detrimental to using it, but they also said that they really couldn't guarantee the performance seeing as methanol had such a low surface tention in the first place.

as for methanol with silicone tubing - neither did i find anything about those two items specifically used in collaboration. i can however try to extrapolate from Jons email and take an educated guess and say you'll probably be okay. if you were too concerned you could always replace your hoses with nylon or vinyl ones- a cheap and quick solution.