[NEWS] Blu-Ray To Punish Users for Modifying Hardware

[Mr.Guvernment]

So, what if i dont have interenet - i cant use a blue ray dvd player?

What about on your PC - would the software fall into the category of spyware? do you have a choice of installing it and if you dont can you not use the player ?

i dont like the looks of this - i know it will be by passed, but still - the thought of having to install software or allow something to connect to the internet to send god knows what information out....


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| Blu-Ray To Punish Users for Modifying Hardware |
| from the you-can-buy-it-but-it-isn't-yours dept. |
| posted by ScuttleMonkey on Sunday September 04, @14:38 (Your Righ|
| http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/04/1827250 |
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[0]datemenatalie writes "As reported on Engadget, consumers should expect punishment for [1]tinkering with their Blu-ray players, as many have done with current DVD players, for instance to remove regional coding. The new, Internet-connected and secure players will report any "hack" and the device can be disabled remotely. As the article asks, "Are they talking about PVP-OPM techniques and rejected HDMI keys, or something else far more sinister? Because apparently "A hacked player is any player that is doing something it's not supposed to do," which open to a pretty fair amount of interpretation--most of which egregious.""

Discuss this story at:
http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=05/09/04/1827250

Links:
0. http://datemenatalie.com/
1. http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000737057152/

[4GHZ_or_bust]

This is really dumb. It's like we can't tinker with our car by replacing the stock radio with something more bling-bling. That and I doubt it can be enforced unless someone blabs. I can't see them braking down the door to your house and inspecting your player for signs of tamper.

I can understand the need to prevent region bypass and Macrovision disabling but supposed I wanted one with black color and all they have are silver, would it be a crime to paint the player a different color?

[Kenshin Himura]

I think its not that people will come and inspect or whatnot, the player itself will shutdown. The article says the device can be shutdown remotely. What I really wonder about this is the actual implementation. Obviously, these players have the capability to be obsessive about security, but will the OEM actually enmploy them? Is this stuff optional or required? Will there be burners without all this crap?

Thats what I want to know.

Kenshin Himura

[JTanczos]

What a sad time we live in now. This is actually very depressing to me how everything is becoming so "secure". My father was right. In the future we will have no rights at all and will live in strict guidelines for everything. I thought he was just rambling on but its true. :cry:

JT

[Radical]

I'm sure there will be players without this. And If there aren't then there will be bypasses like Guv said.

[lilxvietxboi]

^Exactly, someone WILL crack it, someone will be able to play it without an internet connection, it has been tried and cracked MULTIPLE times. Some of the recent..
OSX for x86(TPM was cracked).
DRM (sp?)
Windows Activation (HA!)
Steam
And tons of others.

Oh well.

[Aslan]

^^Indeed. I wouldn't worry too much about it and I'm sure people will figure out how to bypass regional-coding for Blu-Ray like they have with DVD.

[stolen]

I'm sure there will be players without this. And If there aren't then there will be bypasses like Guv said.

Exactly :D

[Mr.Guvernment]

:D - but just the thoughts - what a pain in the butt!

So now for the legit person who buys this and doesnt have internet...... they get screwed.

[lincolnompa]

I guess if you have all the other expensive equipment like the hd monitor and the blu-ray player, you should be well off enough to have an internet connection

[Mr.Guvernment]

well, true to some degree - but not everyone in this world needs / uses the internet :) - and how will it connect - what if you only have dial up - will it have a modem ? or do you need to havea router etc etc.

[koss20100]

I guess if you have all the other expensive equipment like the hd monitor and the blu-ray player, you should be well off enough to have an internet connection


reminds me of the pre-hl2 times when ppl were like omg i cant play hl2 cuz i dont have internet .. and "im not buying it cuz it doesent come with a manual" .. or Ill have to have my cd in to play css ?!?!?! .. im not sure how to explain why ppl react in such ways ... any of it or why im using eclipses and not acutal periods and commas the point is that its not tht big of a deal :D

[ckj]

to the average user it's not that big of a deal but I'd be pretty angry if i couldn't play hl2 on a airplane trip. Or on vacation because there was no internet. There are plenty of places a DVD player comes in handy but internet is inaccessible.

[tom10167]

This will be like every video game where you 'need' the CD in order to play the game, because you can't download a 40KB file for free on a million websites that immediately solves the problem.


omgpanic

[9mmCensor]

Is this surprising?

[Mr.Guvernment]

it is not suprising really - make it harder for the legit person.

and tom10167, the point is why should i have to download a file? why should i be forced to do more work to play X companies game - they should be making it as easy as possible. Not everyone knows about no-cd cracks, nor wants to venture to many of the sites to get them because of the questionable content /banners / spyware they usually have.

What about portable DVD players - i am on vacation / airplane and they dont have Inet service OH - cant watch my DVD's i brought with me!!

[TollhouseFrank]

i know companies are wanting to do this, and they will 'get away' with it. however, what they are doing is completely legal. There is no law that says it is illegal, thusly, its legal for them to do so.

[Enablingwolf]

This topic brings up an interesting thought.

I am an admin of a few computers that are not in my location (my brother in law's computers that I still 'legally' own). They are not networked outside the home, and I was asked about Blueray. Now that I have read this, I will have to explain the technology will not be compatable with the current setup.

Bypassing any protections are not an option, so is networking beyond the local network. Some folks will not be happy since they niether have the need for outside connections or the desire. Bypasses, same thing, most folks know that there is bypassing available, but choose to not do this. It was hard enough explaining why I had to call MS to activate XP(HL2 was a tough one too).

This is going to be really hard to get across.... I usually just sneaker net everything if need be for updates(only if something needs to be fixed). Now to explain this new turn of events for a questioned hardware upgrade. :bang head:

[lincolnompa]

i know companies are wanting to do this, and they will 'get away' with it. however, what they are doing is completely legal. There is no law that says it is illegal, thusly, its legal for them to do so.

In protest, why don't we all just stick with regular dvds. Its not like its written in stone that we HAVE to switch to blu-ray, is it?

[ckj]

I"m with Lincolnompa, that or go with HD-DVDs. Assuming that doesn't have the same inane protections.

[threeme2189]

whats the difference between blue ray dvd players and the regular ones?

[salty.dog]

Anybody remember a technology called Divx? Not the codec - the "buy to rent" DVD format developed by Circuit City.

As proposed and designed, you'd have bought a Divx DVD at a store for $5, popped it in your Divx DVD player, and the player would need to "authorize" the playing of the disc by (presumably) using an internet/phone connection. Oh, and you wouldn't be able to play it after two days unless you paid more money. And no playing the disc without a phone/internet connection.

This idea died very quickly. There was a lot of hue and cry from the early adopter tech community, but that wasn't why it died. It died because it was just too damned complex. What if there was no phone/internet connection? What if you took the disc to a friend's house? Why would you choose this type of DVD player, with its extra cost, over a conventional DVD player?

This blu-ray scheme is exactly the same. It'll die, or be significantly revamped, because it just won't work.

Why has the DVD format been so successful? Because any idiot can go to Wal-Mart, plunk down $50, and watch a DVD. There's no complexity to it. It's extremely user-friendly and easy to deal with. It's a CD player with an extra cable.

Take that, and require the user to hook it up to a phone line/internet connection, and there's no way it catches on. It's unwieldy, difficult, and unworkable.

There are two ways this could go:

1. The blu-ray consortium comes to its senses, realizes that consumers will reject this technology as unuable, and makes it either optional or strips it out altogether.

2. The blue-ray consortium keeps this technology, blu-ray becomes a niche format, and DVD/HD-DVD remains the dominant format.

There's simply no way that blu-ray, as proposed, will become a mainstream format, if they hold on to this "player must be internet-connected" nonsense.

[stolen]

whats the difference between blue ray dvd players and the regular ones?

Blue-Ray players use a blue wavelength which is shorter than the wavelength of a CD or DVD which use a red one, hence can store more data in the same amount of space. You'll be able to use DVDs and CD on a Blue-Ray player but cannot use Blue-Ray discs on a DVD player.

[Enablingwolf]

I can see this bieng a actually bad idea. Like myself I only want one optical drive. I usually only use one optical drive at a time, I have no need whatso ever for two.

If I was to corrupt part of my system like the networking drivers, I could not use my drive to get the drivers off a disc. It would be a very disappointing and vicious cycle. This would have to be a ground-breaking revolutionary tech before I consider it. Otherwise I will stay on regular DVD format.

[salty.dog]

If you really want to get a good scare, read this:

http://www.dvdfile.com/news/viewpoints/editors_desk/2005/05_18.html

Some in-depth info on the copyright protection that's likely to go into the next-gen optical format.

[stolen]

If you really want to get a good scare, read this:

http://www.dvdfile.com/news/viewpoints/editors_desk/2005/05_18.html

Some in-depth info on the copyright protection that's likely to go into the next-gen optical format.

If it can be read, it can be broken :cool:

[tom10167]

and tom10167, the point is why should i have to download a file? why should i be forced to do more work to play X companies game - they should be making it as easy as possible. Not everyone knows about no-cd cracks, nor wants to venture to many of the sites to get them because of the questionable content /banners / spyware they usually have.



What's the big deal? Rather than protest and fight and riot(fruitlessly) just download a 37KB file and be done with it. Problem solved, the whoevers think they have total control, I have exactly what I want, what's the problem?

[JTanczos]

This better not require authing from stand alone players cause I will be damned to run a cat5 cable to every stand alone player I might own.

As for computer drives..... just install a fail safe firmware that cant be patched. A backup copy to rewrite the tampered firmware. Why require so many different things to make it secure? Unless they want to slap you with a lawsuit.

JT

[RangerXLT8]

Just use another DVD player.

[Mr.Guvernment]

What's the big deal? Rather than protest and fight and riot(fruitlessly) just download a 37KB file and be done with it. Problem solved, the whoevers think they have total control, I have exactly what I want, what's the problem?


you are not understanding this

WHY - should i have to? that is the bottom line - i should NOT have to do anything more.

1. get an internet connection
2. find some web site with the file i need
3. somehow "flash / install" this fix onto my player in hopes i dont fry my new $300 Blue Ray player
4. Possibly buy a computer because i dont have one in the first place...... (not everyone has a need for a computer - beleive it or not)


You see what i am getting at?


WHY should the consumer be forced to do MORE work to make a product work - when i buy a product - it better work out of the box - i should not have to tweak / download / patch to make it work.


The issue with blueray is it is backed by rather large corporations - not circuit city.

HD-DVD will also have some crazy security - to the point you may have to buy a "special" TV that has certain security aspects built into it.

[tom10167]

So you think you should be able to crack region-detection(something that already exists, is that horrible too?) and get away with it?


I don't think I can, or that I should, but I know it'll be a matter of time before I will.

[Susquehannock]

Blah! - I think that many times manufacturers propose silly things like this just to see
how people react. :rolleyes:

[4GHZ_or_bust]

The tighter they grip on copyright issue, the more that will slip through!

While it may be more work on us (ie downloadingh patches) it will allow us to use the machine as we see fit. When I first got my DVD player, my TV didn't have AV connector and the early RF modulator were like $50 back then. Instead I found the hacked firmware and burned onto a $0.20 CD-R to flash my player so I was able to disable Macrovision and hook it to my TV through VCR. (I don't use VCR, all DVD I get are for keep)

There will be a way around every little thing to resolve every legimate problems. It only bothers me that companies have to do this because a small percentage of owners has to make illegal copies (rent or borrow movie, copy it, keep copy). Basically like requiring all cars to have breath analyzer and requiring driver to pass it before car will start because a small number of people drive drunk.

[subtotal]

Blue-Ray players use a blue wavelength which is shorter than the wavelength of a CD or DVD which use a red one, hence can store more data in the same amount of space. You'll be able to use DVDs and CD on a Blue-Ray player but cannot use Blue-Ray discs on a DVD player.

thats a maybe, they can make red/blue laser players but they WILL be more expensive and later models will likely have the red-laser left out to reduce cost

[lincolnompa]

Anybody remember a technology called Divx? Not the codec - the "buy to rent" DVD format developed by Circuit City.

As proposed and designed, you'd have bought a Divx DVD at a store for $5, popped it in your Divx DVD player, and the player would need to "authorize" the playing of the disc by (presumably) using an internet/phone connection. Oh, and you wouldn't be able to play it after two days unless you paid more money. And no playing the disc without a phone/internet connection.

This idea died very quickly. There was a lot of hue and cry from the early adopter tech community, but that wasn't why it died. It died because it was just too damned complex. What if there was no phone/internet connection? What if you took the disc to a friend's house? Why would you choose this type of DVD player, with its extra cost, over a conventional DVD player?

This blu-ray scheme is exactly the same. It'll die, or be significantly revamped, because it just won't work.

Why has the DVD format been so successful? Because any idiot can go to Wal-Mart, plunk down $50, and watch a DVD. There's no complexity to it. It's extremely user-friendly and easy to deal with. It's a CD player with an extra cable.

Take that, and require the user to hook it up to a phone line/internet connection, and there's no way it catches on. It's unwieldy, difficult, and unworkable.


This is what I was trying to get to, but I had to do summer reading for school. If nobody buys this blu-ray crap, it'll go the way of the DIVX format and the dvd that self destructed after a number of days. The fact is most regular people probably aren't going to want to go through all of this crap and even fewer have or are willing to have furnish their house with an ethernet jack in every place they might want to set up a DVD player. I mean money talks and if we make it talk for us the people, then this whole blu-ray security system bs will have to walk.

[Cap'n Pedro]

Don't worry about it. One week after it's release the underground community will be working on a new way to "stick it to the man".

[TheGreySpectre]

We forget that there are still plenty of people, gamers even who are still on dial-up. I know for them it would be a pain in the butt if they have to dialup everytime they want to watch a DVD

also what about my laptop and watching movies on planes, and in the car


This just doesnt seem very well thought out

[warlock110]

i ain't buying it unless it works out of the box. i don't like this stuff @ all. and i don't buy what i don't support. i don't watch movies that much any how. but it's wack like this.

[Como]

If they did that they might as well make it require a WIFI ready connection with a preset WEP key and have the user forward the players MAC to a specific port, at which point the company would be wasting their effort and destroying their product.

Dont worry about it, just relax. i just got a dvd burner less than 4 months ago, and i diddnt have to deal with any of that -r +r crap, because it does both. blue ray dvd has a good idea, because the media could store a good amount of data relatively cheaply, assuming the company doesnt make it an elitist prick product.

iether way, weather they win or lose, its gonna be scetchy for a year or so, while they figure it out, and improve it.
the security is crap, the company knows that the people who dont give a crap about copyright dont give a crap about their anti-piracy toys. the pirates will bypass it, and the people who dont know any better will curse at it, and it will die.

and that remote-shut off for tamper thing proposes a pretty sweet virus, im surprised nobody mentioned that.

could you imagine a full scale virus that permanantly disables a $300 piece of hardware? man, that would be FUNNY!
well, for me anyway. for the comapny, and the people getting their $300 burner beaten, wel, sucks for them, all of them. thats what you get for buying hardware designed to get broken.

[TollhouseFrank]

IF, and i mean IF this works like the DIVX discs in the early DVD days, then its gonna die. DIVX required an internet connection to watch the movies as well. Of course, it died :D

nowadays though, more people have internet access, and its more likely that this will be more adopted by the public.

[Ciffer]

so from what i can tell, we won't as much own blu-ray drives as much as we will pay a fee to be allowed to use the manufacturer's drive. hopefully an open source equivilent for hardware will be available at some point.

edit: anyone else see blu-ray becoming the next beta-max? sony isn't invovled with blu-ray is it. i'd hate to see another superior format die from crap like this

[z0n3]

What about places where you can't get broadband?

[Ciffer]

i believe if you don't have internet you will be S.O.L.

[Mr.Guvernment]

^^^ exactly, as i sated abovem, not everyone has / needs internet and suprisingly that is ALOT of people in this world. and i mean ALOT - ALOT more then those who do have internet.

[tom10167]

Yes, but how many of those people without internet plan to buy bleeding edge state-of-the-art high definition high density digital video players?

[JTanczos]

Yes, but how many of those people without internet plan to buy bleeding edge state-of-the-art high definition high density digital video players?

Well if this goes through, none? It is no longer an option. it is a requirement. This limits who can own it. I know many many MANY non-tech savey people who like watching movies. Why do you have to have a BS in Comp Sci to play a movie??!? People didn't know how to set the time on their VCRs yet they could figure out how to push the tape in and press play.

JT

[Mr.Guvernment]

^^ exactly - Tom - you seem to think everyone has internet, can build PC's - can find site's to download illegal items- news flash, you are very very very miss-informed and wrong.

[ckj]

so from what i can tell, we won't as much own blu-ray drives as much as we will pay a fee to be allowed to use the manufacturer's drive. hopefully an open source equivilent for hardware will be available at some point.

edit: anyone else see blu-ray becoming the next beta-max? sony isn't invovled with blu-ray is it. i'd hate to see another superior format die from crap like this
Blu-ray'll show up on the ps3. Sony is very involved in it. It'd be funny if it went the way of the beta-max.