More bad news: ATI's r520 marginally(or equal to) ahead of x850xt PE :(

[Overclocker550]

http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=2679


x1800xl scores nearly 7k marks in 3dmark 2005 making it similar to an x850xt PE in performance! 16 pipes has been confirmed. Basically both cards are the same except r520 is on 90nm with ps3. If you are waiting, dont bother just get a 7800gtx or if your budget isnt $500, get the x850xt(PE) and your games will fly. r520 has been delayed to October 5 now and im hearing itll be late October at the earliest before they ship! There is no point anymore waiting. If you want ATI get the x850xt(PE) or if you gotta have the fastest, get the 7800gtx(or two lol)

[Couger]

no Way is that true

1. Is it ATI's top of the range card ?

2. why oh why would ATI put all the money and resources into producing a new card if it cant even beat there current production cards it would be a Joke and probably the end for ATI

Thats utter bull

[El<(')>Maxi]

Comparing a reference 16 pipe R520XL with lower clocks to a 16 pipe PE is not a fair comparision.

It's obvious that there are all three (pipe 16,24,32) versions for testing (HKPC). If you read what VR Zone said about the versions and clocks the R520XT (24 pipe) will score 8.6K in '05 well ahead of 7800Gtx.

Remember these are reference cards only at this point. What they will look like in retail release is another story.

[scooter787b]

i thought most people quit listening to overclocker550 :\

[Mr.Guvernment]

um from the reads i got the 520XT? will be equal to a 7800GTX and scored more then 1000k in 3dmark05 over the 7800GTX with core speeds of 650mhz....

So it is not abd news for ATI - considering if this card has 16 pipes vs NVIDIA 24.....


i think this may end up being a real shocker - or has the potential to be for ATI to make NVIDIA not feel so condifdent

And no, there likely wont be 32 pipe cards for the r520 due to yield issues yet supposedly the r580 doesnt experience these issue so there will be 32pipe'd r580's.


[edit] sorry you said XL - well i guess then it will depend on price for that card....

[Mr.Guvernment]

http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=2667&s=1

"ATi R520XT Scores 85xx In 3DMark05


According to preliminary tests done by our friends at HKEPC, R520XT clocked at 650MHz core and 1400MHz memory will score ~8600 on 3DMark05 using FX-55, nearly 1K higher than GeForce 7800GTX at 430/1200MHz. If the R520 clocks run at 550/1200MHz, the score will be around the same as the 7800GTX. It is certainly interesting to see how the R520XTs in Crossfire performs. There is a 32 pipes version of the R520 as well but it can only be clocked at 520MHz and as a result it will perform lower than the 24 pipes R520XT @ 650Mhz core. Therefore ATi will not release 32pp version until R580 comes along."

[Overclocker550]

There wont be any 32 pipe r520s and highly unlikley to see any 24 either. True that near 7k was an x1800xl, the x1800xt will be about 7.5k but very few will be made because ati cant get the clocks so high. For the most part, only x1800xl and below will be readily available. You can get an x850xt NOW


"why oh why would ATI put all the money and resources into producing a new card if it cant even beat there current production cards it would be a Joke and probably the end for ATI"


It was supposed to be 32 pipes at 700MHz but due to bad yields, they had to make it 500MHz and 16 pipes :shrug: :eh?:

[waddupmm]

So many rumours going around about this card I dont believe anything anyone says, ill believe it when I see a website post a review about it, or when I see someone on the forums with it..

[batboy]

This is pure speculation on my part and I might be off base, but it seems to me ATI had problems with the 90nm R520 cores (similar to Intels troubles with the first Prescott). They will eventually get it figured out and be back in the running, but they lost traction for the moment. I think we can pretty much forget the 32 pipe R520 and the 24 pipe version probably won't show until after the new year. It's likely ATI is releasing the R520 that is just good enough to compete with Nvidia in order to bide them some time for their upcoming R580. Of course, we overclockers are an impatient lot. We want it all and we want it now.

[batboy]

So many rumours going around about this card I dont believe anything anyone says, ill believe it when I see a website post a review about it, or when I see someone on the forums with it..

Just a few weeks ago the rumor was the R520 was totally cancelled. The closer launch times come, the more we'll start hearing the real story. Those that are crying doom for ATI are being a little premature. They ain't done yet until the fat lady sings. Yes, for the moment, Nvidia is enjoying the limelight. So what? They made a good top end card with the 7800 and I'm glad it's available. I have faith the R580 will redeem ATI.

[Sentential]

Ya know... stuff like this really irrarates the hell out of me. Name one X800XT that does 7k on 3d05 at stock? Name one and Ill let it go. Otherwise its about time for you to stfu about this.

My overclocked 6800U only got into the upper 5800 / lower 6k. That was on a decent clocking card, maxed out. In *no* way does this reflect how poor the R520 is.

[austinbmxnig]

yeah, i just can't come to grips with it being THAT lame, I mean honestly, and you guys act like ATI has even considered going out of business, lol just because it scores the same as another product that already exists on some benchmark that probably 1% of people care about on the earth.....lol ATI still sells cards whether or not the nerds like their stuff, lets face it

[Overclocker550]

That I dont know but they just said the x850xt is very close to an r520. personally id just get the 7800gtx its faster anyway


edit: neither x1800xl nor x850xt get 7k in 2005 stock, but the 7800gtx gets that easy. Besides theres games that matter too. Dont get me wrong, all the cards are fast, ati just failed to get out a faster card

[Sentential]

They said:

We got hold of some performance figures of the Radeon X1800 XL and using the beta Catalyst 8.172 drivers, it outperforms the Radeon X850 XT PE slightly. For 3DMark05, you are probably looking at a close 7K. However, the beta drivers still aren't looking too good at the moment and ATi is working hard to get their drivers ready and optimized for the launch.

You said:

http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=2679


x1800xl scores nearly 7k marks in 3dmark 2005 making it similar to an x850xt PE in performance! 16 pipes has been confirmed. Basically both cards are the same except r520 is on 90nm with ps3. If you are waiting, dont bother just get a 7800gtx or if your budget isnt $500, get the x850xt(PE) and your games will fly.r520 has been delayed to October 5 now and im hearing itll be late October at the earliest before they ship! There is no point anymore waiting. If you want ATI get the x850xt(PE) or if you gotta have the fastest, get the 7800gtx(or two lol)
You insist on flaimbaiting with every post you make and it is really starting to **** me the hell off.

[Overclocker550]

I still stand by what I said. neither x850xt nor x1800xl get 7k in 2005. Both are 16 pipes and around 500MHz clocks. The 7800gtx is already better than that and has been out for some time

[Sentential]

I still stand by what I said. neither x850xt nor x1800xl get 7k in 2005. Both are 16 pipes and around 500MHz clocks. The 7800gtx is already better than that and has been out for some time
Dude you must be going blind. Read what the article said... read it nice and slow

We got hold of some performance figures of the Radeon X1800 XL and using the beta Catalyst 8.172 drivers, it outperforms the Radeon X850 XT PE slightly. For 3DMark05, you are probably looking at a close 7K. However, the beta drivers still aren't looking too good at the moment and ATi is working hard to get their drivers ready and optimized for the launch.
With bad drivers it gets close to 7k and it ought to go over that once retail. How do you get off claiming that neither will break 7k when clearly VRzone implys it will and soon.

[rhino56]

after reading this post im undecided, let me check with my other sources here also

ati source info (http://www.cryo-laboratory.com/upload/userfiles/rhino56/ati%20info%20facts.jpg)
you can also check them here.

[apu318]

i thought most people quit listening to overclocker550 :\

Sorry 550, I have to agree. I remember the last time you graced us with your hypothesis. It didn't turn out good. Sorry bro, this is not a flame.

[mikeguava]

Ya know... stuff like this really irrarates the hell out of me. Name one X800XT that does 7k on 3d05 at stock? Name one and Ill let it go. Otherwise its about time for you to stfu about this.

My overclocked 6800U only got into the upper 5800 / lower 6k. That was on a decent clocking card, maxed out. In *no* way does this reflect how poor the R520 is.
you words are right on the money! 7K for the XL stock is insane! We are talking XL here....can't wait what the XT will do...for the ney sayers btw check what the 7800gtx does stock...

[Sentential]

after reading this post im undecided, let me check with my other sources here also

ati source info (http://www.cryo-laboratory.com/upload/userfiles/rhino56/ati%20info%20facts.jpg)
you can also check them here.
:p

[xTrEmEoVrClOcKr]

Lmao.

[OkydOky]

And we also find this article:
http://www.hkepc.com/hwdb/r520firstlook-e.htm

People have to stop believing everything they read.
Not long ago, R520 were supposedly.. cancelled.
Doesn't look that way now..

[OcX]

So their will be R520 releases with more then 16 pipes? All this speculation is giving me a $399 USD headache.

[Jimbob7]

How hard is it going to be to find an AGP version? I really don't want to have to upgrade my motherboard for new graphics, seeing as getting a dothan board with PCI-E doesn't seem to be easy at the moment.

The new card is looking promising, I really do hope it works out, mainly for the reason above :/.

[xTrEmEoVrClOcKr]

Id hope to see a 20 or 24 pipe card from ATi ... all depends.

[RAMMAN]

it seems that the 7800gt will be the final agp card since r520 wont be released in agp due to yields.

[WingsofGOD]

You insist on flaimbaiting with every post you make and it is really starting to **** me the hell off.
Stand back, i think he's gonna blow!

[Jimbob7]

Since when was there a 7800GT AGP? ATi said they was releasing a R520 AGP, a few weeks ago, have things changed?

[RAMMAN]

that inquirer article saying that r520 was going to be released in agp was a few months back, before anyone knew about the yield issues.since then ati has gone back on their promise.just check out the thread with the r520 pics to see what i mean.the 7800gt agp will be released early next year, and with their very high yields you can count on nvidia to deliver on their promise.

[hoho220]

ATI is not going to release a card that is substantially more expensive than the x850xt and only has marginal benchmark improvements. Economically it just would not make sense, and they know this.

[Jimbob7]

that inquirer article saying that r520 was going to be released in agp was a few months back, before anyone knew about the yield issues.since then ati has gone back on their promise.just check out the thread with the r520 pics to see what i mean.the 7800gt agp will be released early next year, and with their very high yields you can count on nvidia to deliver on their promise.

Thanks for the info. Just want one more AGP before i make the big jump to PCI-E etc.

[RAMMAN]

me too.its just that the x850xtpe agp just isnt worthy of me :p .just not enough of a performance boost for my liking.at least the 7800gt gets 7k in 05 stock :cool: .

[Overclocker550]

dont count on new agp verson cards. Both Nvidia/ATI are serious about phasing out agp. Frankly youd be better upgrading to pci-e or be stuck with old technology. All the new mobos I know of are pci-e only. Right now its speculation but I personally doubt the r520 is gonna touch a 7800gtx

[batboy]

Finally, something I agree with 550 about. The AGP is a dying breed.

[Jimbob7]

It sure is dying, I don't disagree with that. But try finding a good motherboard for me to upgrade to and i'll happily do it ;).

If one more AGP card is made then atleast i can do a big upgrade later next year, when Yonah etc are readily avaliable.

[Sjaak]

dont count on new agp verson cards. Both Nvidia/ATI are serious about phasing out agp. Frankly youd be better upgrading to pci-e or be stuck with old technology. All the new mobos I know of are pci-e only. Right now its speculation but I personally doubt the r520 is gonna touch a 7800gtx

http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=410588

read post #31

8600 marks 05, ahead of a 7800GTX

[EagleClaw]

I think the r520xl will be able to compete with the 7800gt and the r520xt taking a lead on the 7800gtx but if the XT doesn't get released at launch time this just gives nvidia to much time to launch something faster than the GTX and they have had plenty of time to get it ready.

I really really wanted to wait for the r520 but the eVGA gtx/mobo combo for $550 shipped was something I just couldn't pass up and I needed a pci-e mobo, so for me even if the r520xl seems to be on par with the GTX I still figure I got good deal and I'm using it now not a month or two from now.

[Cobalt]

550: I just want to say this clearly for anyone who is new to the whole r520 talk(then again who here isnt), the major fault in your argument is that your comparing the X1800XL(mid-high spec) version on beta drivers with the 7800GTX (insane) version. Your also being misleading in suggesting that there is a stock x850xt that can hit 7k.

I just want to clear the air as the discussion has become quite flamey. The original source is actually very interesting and I thank you for that at least. If anything its encouraged me to wait a little while longer for this even if some models (X1600) will be the same as current cards except with SM3.0 etc.

[Overclocker550]

I do not see the r5200xl competing with the 7800gt, sorry to say. r5200xt yes. We are speculating but I am not in dreamland where r520 has a million pipes and is clocked at 10GHz.

[OCS911]

feel disappointed at R520??? :) anyway I just have to wait R580 to see how it does, I don't plan on upgrading now so I have plenty of time to wait for R580

[IWasHungry]

The R520s are supposed to compare to the 7800s, no?

[Overclocker550]

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2532&p=1


this is almost fact at this point. Let me throw in my comments:


r520pro is a bad deal, why not pay the extra $50 and step to an x1800xl it has higher clocks and 512mb ram. the x1800le looks very much like an x800pro. Both are clocked the same, the x800pro being just over half the price. I am not even gonna argue about performance, look at the $350 tag for only 12 pipes! You can get a 16 pipe 6800gt or x800xl for much less, even the x800/x850xt is still less than $350!
We dont yet know if the x1800xt can match a 7800gtx, but we do know it has *less* fillrate than the 7800gtx due to it only being 16 pipes. However its got 512mb memory and more memory bandwith. ATI lost alot of sales to Nvidia's 7800gtx and I doubt those with 7800gtx are about to switch to x1800xt either.

rv530 looks to be slower than even the x1800le but at $250 its priced right. It has higher core clocks but only 78% the ram bandwith. However x1800le is 75% the clocks of x1600xt. Is rv530 binned r520 cores or a different but similar core? x1600xt looks to be a better deal than x1800le despite x1600xt looking to be a little slower, its considerabily cheaper plus has 512mb ram. avoid the x1600pro as its only $50 cheaper but has half the ram and much lower clocks and bandwith. Youd be far better off with an x800pro instead.

rv515 is a low end card, although I am kinda supprised how high the 500MHz ram clocks are. However you are probably better off getting a 6600gt or x800gt. There is no word on if the rv515 will even have ps3 as its a value card with a trimed down core.

The best deals look to be the x1800xl at $500 and the x1600xt at $250. However I would not count out the x800xl and x800pro as potentionally being even better deals.


one more thing, the 24 pipes is r580 which is basically an r520 with better yields and higher clocks. Rumors say r520 is a stop-gap measure and r580 with its 24 pipes and higher clocks(600MHz+)should be out in a few months to compete with g71, supposedly a higher clocked 7800gtx. If you are unimpressed with r520, just hold out for r580 :)

[IWasHungry]

You can't necessarily compare clock speeds between different video cards. That like comparing apples to...my cat.

[Sjaak]

Doesn't anyone read?


http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=410588

read post #31

8600 marks 05, 1000 ahead of a 7800GTX

[Numbstruck]

You can't necessarily compare clock speeds between different video cards. That like comparing apples to...my cat.


I would like to place my 2.4 GHz Cordless phone in direct competition against your 2.4 GHz CPU. May the better GHz win! :D :p

[bldegle2]

'We are speculating'

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

We???? no, YOU are speculating with tidbits of rumor/informations that you have garnered at other websites.

all this would be mute if you just provided links as asked of you hundreds of times in the past.

this message will self destruct in ten seconds.

baldy :burn:

[batboy]

All is not bad news from that Anandtech article that 550 posted. I will reserve judgement when I see the head to head reviews. Also, the unknown here is how much overclocking overhead this X1800 card will have.

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2532&p=1

At the top end is the Radeon X1800 XT; this 16-pipe R520 will feature a 600MHz core clock, with a 256-bit memory bus connected to 512MB of GDDR3 memory clocked at 700MHz. The 600MHz core clock will give it a lower fill rate than the GeForce 7800 GTX (24-pipes at 430MHz), while the 700MHz memory clock will give it more memory bandwidth than the stock GTX (600MHz). Much like the GTX, the X1800 XT will be priced at $599. The X1800 XT will feature two DVI outputs with HDCP support. The lower fillrate seems alarming at first, but consider several factors. First of all, ATI's traditional core design can do "more" per clock cycle (at least on the R420 design) than NVIDIA. Secondly, R520 has a lot of little tweaks including hardware asissted H.264 decoding. Just last week, we also received details about ATI's revamped memory controller which operates on an internal 512-bit ring bus. There is a lot to speculate about performance, but even with similar fill rates as NVIDIA, there is a strong possibility that other workings in R520 will differentiate the card on a real world performance level.

[JigPu]

You can't necessarily compare clock speeds between different video cards. That like comparing apples to...my cat.
True, but comparing fill-rate (MHz * pipes) and memory bandwidth (MHz * bus width) do give a reasonable comparison. They're not the be-all end-all metric, especially with shader performance becoming more and more relevant, but one should not wholly discount the numbers.

I have yet to read any of the links provided by OC550 yet, though if the R520 is running with a similar config (MHz/pipes) as the X850 (as I seem to be getting the impression from him), then I can't imagine how it could perform that much better since most gains would have to come through increased efficiencies in the card or driver (neither of which usually pay of really large gains).

/me now runs off to actuall RTFAs :D
JigPu

[JigPu]

/me returns from RTFAs :D

The Anandtech article sums up everything else quite nicely. They mention different clocks than other sites, with a decrease in the XT's speed, and an increase in the XL's speed. Furthermore, they mention the XT's 16-pipe nature which I'm more willing to believe than a 24-pipe version running at 650MHz (as HKEPC claimed to have tested).

Assuming that speed ramps are the only thing influencing the card's performance (which as Anandtech mentioned won't be the case), then OC550's VR-Zone article is pretty much spot on with their assessment that the X1800XL won't be too much faster than the X800XT PE (OC550 though incorrectly stated it as the X1800XT being only slightly faster). As far as the X1800XT goes, it should be a fair amount faster than the X800XT PE.

Comparisons to the 7800 series is much more difficult. As Anandtech points out, the cards have less fill-rate than their competitors, yet quite a bit more memory bandwidth. Assuming the XT is to compete with the GTX and the XL the GT, then each card has ~1GPixel/sec less fill-rate yet ~5GB/sec more memory bandwidth. As to wheter this will make it competitive is anybody's guess.

The two unknowns I see are how much the improved efficiences help out the X1800, and how good of an OCer it will be (though given the yeild issues, I'm not crossing my fingers)

JigPu

[Mr.Guvernment]

if a 16 pipe card @ higher clocks and a512 bit rng bus can kick NVIDIA 7800GTX - i cant wait for the r580..lol


And many people seemed to think it was NVIDIA who was more efficient on clocks - seems it is ATI - on the past r4*** - if that is true now - faster clocks / more efficient per cycle 512bit ring bus.... niceeeeeeeeeee

[ShadowClock59]

I agree with Mr. Guvt. If the X1800XT does get the RUMORED 8600 points in 3DMark05, then i will sell my 7800GTX and get the R580 when it comes out, even though that could be some time down the road, i will prolly still be able to get over 350-400 for it.

Dont get me wrong, I love this freaking card, I love it love it love it. But Im starting to feel like an idiot for buying a 256mb card when everyone basically knew that the R520's would be 512mb and high clocks.

As for the 16 pipe vs 24 pipe thing: 16xCore/Mem clocks vs. 24xCore/Mem clocks. Seems like common sense on which one has the potential. Sure, some say "OOO the R520 can beat a GTX and it only has 16 pipes" but that 16 pipes is backed by 600mhz core and 1400mhz memory. Therefore i think that any 24pp card will respond to overclocking better than a 16pp card.

my $5,342.02 cents. :beer:

[JigPu]

I sure hope that it can hit 8600 marks, but according to the site that posted that score (VR-zone about HKEPC's results) they were using a 24-pipe card @ 600MHz -- way faster than the 16-pipe X1800's versions that Anandtech is saying will come out.

/me waits for some real benches, and steals about $0.02 from ShadowClock59 to pay for this post ;)
JigPu

[Sentential]

I sure hope that it can hit 8600 marks,
After seeing what my X800PRO can do, I'd say its likely. Ive been a skeptic in terms of what clock speed can offer (via the ATi camp) but ive seen the light in a sense. I have never seen a 12 pipe card so completely thrash my good overclocked 6800U, or any 6800U for that matter. Needless to say it was eye opening and since that point I have changed my opinion.

As much as the R520 has been difficult I think it can and will beat the 7800GTX even with a handicap. In addition based of what my PRO can do, it should be by a fairly large margin.

Assuming nothing has changed:

12 @ 600 > Nv's 16 @ 445

Should go hand in hand with what the X1800PRO should do

[deception``]

After seeing what my X800PRO can do, I'd say its likely. Ive been a skeptic in terms of what clock speed can offer (via the ATi camp) but ive seen the light in a sense. I have never seen a 12 pipe card so completely thrash my good overclocked 6800U, or any 6800U for that matter. Needless to say it was eye opening and since that point I have changed my opinion.

As much as the R520 has been difficult I think it can and will beat the 7800GTX even with a handicap. In addition based of what my PRO can do, it should be by a fairly large margin.

Assuming nothing has changed:

12 @ 600 > Nv's 16 @ 445

Should go hand in hand with what the X1800PRO should do

Don't be so quick to assume.

I can recall (with others) of a time when you thought NVIDIA's 6xxx lineup to be superior to the x800 Pro :-/

Your opinion seems to change more frequently than you change hardware.

At the moment, we know virtually nothing about ATI's next gen products, so there is no point assuming just because you have a good overclocking card.

deception``

[ludeboy12]

well unless it clocks well i dont think i'll be switching anytime soon.....my card does 8600 stock and 9000 OCd w/ my lil venice so no sense in changing....

not right away at least....

[Sgt_Pinto]

I'm a novie to this kinda stuff but why doesnt ati try a much lower core clock with thier r520 like 450mhz then try the 32pp insted of an very stupid 700mhz. If Nvidia can do that to thier cards why cant ati??

[RAMMAN]

because ati has 32 pipe cards clocked at 520mhz, but their 24 pipe cards clocked at 650mhz outperform it.

[EagleClaw]

I sure hope that it can hit 8600 marks, but according to the site that posted that score (VR-zone about HKEPC's results) they were using a 24-pipe card @ 600MHz -- way faster than the 16-pipe X1800's versions that Anandtech is saying will come out.

/me waits for some real benches, and steals about $0.02 from ShadowClock59 to pay for this post ;)
JigPu


This is what I was going to say, so many people think (other forums) it was the 16-pipe that got 8600 marks but according to HKEPC's it was the 24-pipe.

Even though I have bought a 7800gtx I still need another card for my sons system so I am waiting for benches before I decide what to get.

[Mr.Guvernment]

So then more likely then the 16pipe will compete with the 7800GT's and the 24pipe vs the GTX.

[Avg]

Well I had a whole reply tiped out and it ended up not going through so here is a summary of it.

In 3dmark05 the X850XTpe score about 1k higher then the 6800U, but if you go and look at real game fps the difference is very small within 5fps at most times, and I don't mean the X850XTpe is getting higher FPS it's both cards sharing the top spot, and only with sli is that there was a significant difference, but not worth it in my opinion. Also I don't think the 7800gtx scores 7500, i know that with my 7800gt I got 7100 with everything at default clocks, eventhough my card is an oc version, but most cards are these series are running at higher clocks.

[ShadowClock59]

ATI is not going to release a card that is substantially more expensive than the x850xt and only has marginal benchmark improvements. Economically it just would not make sense, and they know this.

Exactly right. But just to clarify, they were talking about the XL, not the XT, theres been a lot of rumors saying that the XT can hit 8600 points in 05, and others have said it should hit high 7's or low 8s (no, not drag racing :rolleyes: )
. Some people In these forums with fx-55's say they hit 8500 points stock with the 7800GTX, which i Do believe, since i hit 8200 stock.

Im not trying to flame, because I love ATI and went with nvidia because of the delay with ATI. But if I were you, and if you had a brain, I wouldnt even speculate anything on the R520 in terms of scores with any review site. Everyone said the GTX would be 32 pipes, it came out 24, everyone said that the G71 was up and running, then scrapped, then up, then scrapped. How can any of you trust this kind of bs.

The card will be fast no doubt, the xtpe was fast as hell and is fast as hell. Anything faster than that should be a good match for the GTX, if its faster than thats great.

[tomchong]

I'm a novie to this kinda stuff but why doesnt ati try a much lower core clock with thier r520 like 450mhz then try the 32pp insted of an very stupid 700mhz. If Nvidia can do that to thier cards why cant ati?? uhhhh, more pipes = more transistors = more $$$. its always better to have less transistors and higher clocks if possible. After a couple of re-spins and delays, i hope we can assume that Ati is getting good yeilds by now. thus no (or less) need for more pipes. @ 90nm, these cards will be cheap to make. looks like ATI is doing a little profiteering to me! As for performance, it looks like the key to R500's will be efficiency. im not going to pretend to know what this 512bit ring bus is, but i betcha ATI dident stick it on thier cards for fun!!

EDIT: there has also been much talk about r520 being a "Unified shader archetecture" so these 16 pipes are not "normal" pipes. The more i think about it, the more i realize we need to settle down, and wait for benchmarks. For better or worse, this card is not like anything we've seen before.

[IWasHungry]

After all these delays with Crossfire and their R520, ATI had better have things all figured out. :)

[Sgt_Pinto]

BTW which non expensive cpu's arent expected to bottleneck preformance of these high end beasts, none?

[Avg]

BTW which non expensive cpu's arent expected to bottleneck preformance of these high end beasts, none?

That is true only when running at low settings, as soon as the res and eyecandy is increased there is no cpu bottloneck anymore.

[Mr.Guvernment]

and that is why most all cards when compared @ say 1024 x 768 - all have around the same FPS - the GTX shines when you crank AA / AF and higher res 1600 + where those additions barely dent the card in alot of games.

if your monitor say can only handle 1280 x 1024 or 10 24 x 768 - there is no readon to get a GTX - unless u plan to get a new monitor, otherwise get a lower end card.

[Overclocker550]

well benchmarks are out and the fastest, the x1800xt is slower than a 7800gtx and not much better than a 7800gt or x850xt. I am afraid so but I was right

[austinbmxnig]

lol, i re-read this topic and saw all the OC550 slander and laughed, member the Venice hype he had going for so long? Hilarious...I also read xs.org from time to time and see these ridiculous posts and look over at the name and sure enough its from GeForceTI4200, lolZ! I personally like him

[Mr.Guvernment]

All the reviews are out?> the only ones i haev seen are from non-reliable biased sources using beta drivers


real testing will happen when these cards are on store shelves and people can order them online.

[ShadowClock59]

All the reviews are out?> the only ones i haev seen are from non-reliable biased sources using beta drivers


real testing will happen when these cards are on store shelves and people can order them online.

Bingo (which i won at the senior citzens club tonight)

[batboy]

well benchmarks are out

If I was way out on a limb and had some links that proved I was right, I'd be proudly posting 'em. I don't see any 3rd party independent reviews yet.

[El<(')>Maxi]

I'll bet it overclocks like mad on 90nm so I don't care if it's only a 16 pipe card. Nvidia runs their 24 pipe cores @ 490mhz so I still think it will own a 7800GTX :D

[ninthebin]

well benchmarks are out

oo a plural - care to link us all to the others (as in not Hardware Analysis)?

[IWasHungry]

I'm surprised how many rumors about R520 and Crossfire are flying around. Who comes up with this crap?

[ShadowClock59]

I'm surprised how many rumors about R520 and Crossfire are flying around. Who comes up with this crap?

I know what you mean, there is not one review site thats legit anymore, tomshardware was the first to go down the swhitter, now its INQ, lets hope anandtech and vrzone dont get biased.

Im lacking of a better answer because I just woke up and felt like typing :beer:

[Mr.Guvernment]

http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?p=3982210#post3982210

well after that fiasco with hardware analysis - am not belving crap - until their tech day and people own these cards - ATI makes great points

ATi is even inviting a massive NVIDIA web site to come to the tech day... that says alot for their confidence in this card beating the 7800*

[muscl3s]

Even if ATI's new R520 outperforms the 7800 series I doubt it will be by much. Even then I'll probably still prefer nvidia because I have a feeling with those high clocks ATI's new cards are going to require much more power, generate much more heat, and have probably no overclock potential. But of course all this is still my own speculation but we'll know soon enough.

[Overclocker550]

I'll bet it overclocks like mad on 90nm so I don't care if it's only a 16 pipe card. Nvidia runs their 24 pipe cores @ 490mhz so I still think it will own a 7800GTX :D


no, the review benched a 430MHz 7800gtx vs. a 600MHz x1800xt and Nvidia won! Now ATI's overclocking their cards to beat a stock 7800gtx, well just oc a 7800gtx and itll win!

[Mr.Guvernment]

^^^^ see other post - who says ATI is overclocking - ATI NEVER stated what there clocks were int he first place - only people who said what the clocks were were 3rd party people, NOT ati.

and NVIDIA "overclocked" their cards with out even telling people so they got better scores.....

[austinbmxnig]

Yeah man, the reviews for this card are NOT up, the card isn't available yet, and staring at the blank wall to my right for about 8 seconds would yeild about the same amount of information that those "reviews" gave.

[Tekko]

Ok I checked my sources inside ATI and Sapphire, what I can say while respecting the NDA concerning all this is that the cards that are in the wild out there are only prototypes. The ONLY ppl that have the finale cards(or as close as you can get) are the driver developpers.

[Mr.Guvernment]

^^ exactly, this is why i love when '550 goes off as if he has carved in stone data about the cards..lol entertaining to say the least.

[deception``]

^^ exactly, this is why i love when '550 goes off as if he has carved in stone data about the cards..lol entertaining to say the least.

Sadly, we don't even know whether the above posted is true or not. I'm trying to add any sort of validity to O/C's posts; however, the fact of the matter is that guessing we make concerning the status of ATI's cards is speculation regardless of whether the news be positive or negative.

Hell, I could say I heard from the NDA grapevine but it doesn't necessarily hold a lot of merit :-/

deception``

[Burner27]

Has anyone seen this article? (http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/article/1813/)

[Sjaak]

Has anyone seen this article? (http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/article/1813/)


http://www.overclockers.com/tips00839/

[Froggy]

http://www.overclockers.com/tips00839/

Well Said!

[Froggy]

I'll bet it overclocks like mad on 90nm so I don't care if it's only a 16 pipe card. Nvidia runs their 24 pipe cores @ 490mhz so I still think it will own a 7800GTX :D
Yeah Nvidia is on the 110nm process, heck my X850XT with a little voltage nudging is doing 672Mhz on the "old" 130nm process.

[RedDragonXXX]

Just wanted to drop in these pics for your R520 fanatics :p

XL
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/688/x1800xlb7lw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

and the XT
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/959/x1800xtbig8qn.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The bro's over at Hexus where at an ATI presentation regarding the Avivo launch. With ATI employees distracted by the need to keep a bunch of hacks in raptures, they were able to whip out the a zoomlens and snag some spy shots of what went down of a couple of cards that you might find intersting. First off let's clear up a little product naming versus code naming to get you an idea of what to expect in the upcoming ATI 2005/2006 season.

X1800 is based on the R520 VPU.
X1600 is their mid range SKU based on RV530.
X1300 is their low-end SKU based on RV515.

The bro's at Hexus basically verified another rumor also as they have a photo of the high-res Apple screens on one card -> dual link transmitters on the entire product range (which is fantastic). So basically the R520, RV530 and RV515 cards can support two displays running at 2560 x 1600 resolutions. Anyway, have a look at the photo's below.

You might have read my article earlier today and thought "dual dual-link DVI? LIES!". You might even have the stance that ATI's R5-series of products is the most talked about piece of vapourware since 3DRealms announced Duke Nukem Forever. Allow HEXUS to pictorially debunk both of those. World's first pictures of X1800 XL should be a fine start, don't you think?

[ShadowClock59]

Just wanted to drop in these pics for your R520 fanatics :p

XL
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/688/x1800xlb7lw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

and the XT
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/959/x1800xtbig8qn.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Finally, I hope thoughs are legit pics, I havnt known you to gossip much around the forums so im leaning toward the true side. And besides, THAT IS A LONG ASS CARD, its gotta be the R5xx. Anything else from them, benchs, yay/nay??

[tomchong]

I know what you mean, there is not one review site thats legit anymore Uhh, Xbitlabs hardly ever makes a big deal out of rumors and they seem pretty honest and unbaised.

Just my .02

[Mr.Guvernment]

those pics dont look like any other card already out :0

that XL - they must have gotten the voltage power down for that cooling.

[Avg]

those pics dont look like any other card already out :0

that XL - they must have gotten the voltage power down for that cooling.

If the leakage problem is similar to what cpus experienced, the card would have to reach a certain speed until there would be a lot of leakage.

[ShadowClock59]

Uhh, Xbitlabs hardly ever makes a big deal out of rumors and they seem pretty honest and unbaised.

Just my .02

Uh....They also havny had any R520 reviews obviously. Im speaking only of the ones that throw out reviews like it was money, expecting everyone to grab it.

[vulcanman09]

uh?
the r520 core was originally destined for the xbox 360
but since alot of people complained about that
ati decided to add the cores to pci x 16 cards
you cannot blame them
i believe microsoft ordered around 20 million of those cores
( could be way off though )
the original production was for xbox 360

[austinbmxnig]

The xbox 360 chip is an entirely different beast in its own from what I understand.

[Sentential]

The xbox 360 chip is an entirely different beast in its own from what I understand.
That is quite correct. There is no comparison whatsoever between the Xbox chip and the R520. They are about as far apart as an Sandiego is to Prescott.

[El<(')>Maxi]

Anyone care to guess which board that second card is in, first one's Grouper ;)

[darkside1016]

To end this discussion for this morning, for everyone that seems to be bashing ATI for the moment, two R520's no matter what they (xl, xt, maybe UFO "lol") are will peak a better performance in CrossFire than the current GeForce SLI lineup, lets face it, unless nVidia puts an end to these stupid required software profiles to run SLI correctly, ATI has the ball. You guy's don't seem to understand that CrossFire is their weapon, not their single GPU's. If ATI can't out perform or at least do equal to nVidia's SLI, that will create a monopoly as we know it for consumers to be forced to buy SLI cards for quite some time, so I sudjest you guy's stop bashing ATI, and wish them some luck, unless of course you want there to be only one company selling dual gpu technology...competition is GOOD for us consumers and overclockers, lets start praying.

[thedoc]

To end this discussion for this morning, for everyone that seems to be bashing ATI for the moment, two R520's no matter what they (xl, xt, maybe UFO "lol") are will peak a better performance in CrossFire than the current GeForce SLI lineup, lets face it, unless nVidia puts an end to these stupid required software profiles to run SLI correctly, ATI has the ball. You guy's don't seem to understand that CrossFire is their weapon, not their single GPU's. If ATI can't out perform or at least do equal to nVidia's SLI, that will create a monopoly as we know it for consumers to be forced to buy SLI cards for quite some time, so I sudjest you guy's stop bashing ATI, and wish them some luck, unless of course you want there to be only one company selling dual gpu technology...competition is GOOD for us consumers and overclockers, lets start praying.


Totally agree with you, the crossfire system could change things for ATI not matter what individual cards do. The SLI systems seems rubbish in comparison, crossfire will even run on intel mobo's unlike SLI which requires their own chipset, which is not great for overclocking.

TBH in the future i may change to ATI for the crossfire system, i am not impressed with SLI.

[deception``]

To end this discussion for this morning, for everyone that seems to be bashing ATI for the moment, two R520's no matter what they (xl, xt, maybe UFO "lol") are will peak a better performance in CrossFire than the current GeForce SLI lineup, lets face it, unless nVidia puts an end to these stupid required software profiles to run SLI correctly, ATI has the ball. You guy's don't seem to understand that CrossFire is their weapon, not their single GPU's. If ATI can't out perform or at least do equal to nVidia's SLI, that will create a monopoly as we know it for consumers to be forced to buy SLI cards for quite some time, so I sudjest you guy's stop bashing ATI, and wish them some luck, unless of course you want there to be only one company selling dual gpu technology...competition is GOOD for us consumers and overclockers, lets start praying.

Sorry, but you're a bit off the mark.

At the moment, ATI has noting but paper launches, press releases, and spy (photo) shots.

I agree that SLI is not a perfect technology, but it is one that is currently available to the end-user; Also, keep in mind that ATI has had PLENTLY of time to fine-tune X-Fire to save it from some of the mistakes that NVIDIA made with SLI (this is a common characteristic of late-mover status).

I do agree that competition is good for us in the long run; however, ATI has promised much on numerous dates and has delivered nothing. Like NVIDIA or not, the fact remains that this time around they not only announced but provided availability for their technologies within a very small frame of time. I think that, in the eyes of many impatient enthusiasts and anxious insiders, such behavior speaks VOLUMES on the company itself.

Like many, I too am curious about X-Fire and their r520 offering, but I think that ATI has really dropped the ball by being so late-to-market.

deception``

[thedoc]

Sorry, but you're a bit off the mark.

At the moment, ATI has noting but paper launches, press releases, and spy (photo) shots.

I agree that SLI is not a perfect technology, but it is one that is currently available to the end-user; Also, keep in mind that ATI has had PLENTLY of time to fine-tune X-Fire to save it from some of the mistakes that NVIDIA made with SLI (this is a common characteristic of late-mover status).

I do agree that competition is good for us in the long run; however, ATI has promised much on numerous dates and has delivered nothing. Like NVIDIA or not, the fact remains that this time around they not only announced but provided availability for their technologies within a very small frame of time. I think that, in the eyes of many impatient enthusiasts and anxious insiders, such behavior speaks VOLUMES on the company itself.

Like many, I too am curious about X-Fire and their r520 offering, but I think that ATI has really dropped the ball by being so late-to-market.

deception``

Why are we worried about the company itself ?, we, as customers are more interested in the product, if ATI arrive with X-fire late but it its better, then it is better, simple as that. If they don't and it is all hot air, then so be it. Just because SLI is availible now doesn't mean it is a good solution for the required cash outlaw, from a sales point of view SLI would be better if it didn't require specific profiles and didn't require NV chipsets, which is what X-fire claims to address...., when it arrives..... :)

[DDR-PIII]

http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=2679


x1800xl scores nearly 7k marks in 3dmark 2005 making it similar to an x850xt PE in performance! 16 pipes has been confirmed. Basically both cards are the same except r520 is on 90nm with ps3. If you are waiting, dont bother just get a 7800gtx or if your budget isnt $500, get the x850xt(PE) and your games will fly. r520 has been delayed to October 5 now and im hearing itll be late October at the earliest before they ship! There is no point anymore waiting. If you want ATI get the x850xt(PE) or if you gotta have the fastest, get the 7800gtx(or two lol)

not likely, seriously if it was fof real wtf are they trying to do ? go out of business, i dont think so... they'd have to be stupid to throw that out and try to compare it to a 7800gtx...Yawn... i'm waiting to see what it can REALLY DO, not this bs off websites, wait til lsome members have one , then we will see.

[Mr.Guvernment]

IF such behaviour speks volume then NVIDIA is as good as ATI since NVIDIA has done just as many paper launches in the past.

ATI has screwed up - but it may allowe them to offer a better product - perhaps if NVIDIA took more time on SLI, there would be these issues with it.


I did read sometime back that ATI's "so called" system that works with all games - is the same as what NVIDIA has - the ATI drivers will scan the game and see what mode it can work in, and if none it will use a single GPU......

[deception``]

Why are we worried about the company itself ?, we, as customers are more interested in the product, if ATI arrive with X-fire late but it its better, then it is better, simple as that. If they don't and it is all hot air, then so be it. Just because SLI is availible now doesn't mean it is a good solution for the required cash outlaw, from a sales point of view SLI would be better if it didn't require specific profiles and didn't require NV chipsets, which is what X-fire claims to address...., when it arrives..... :)

To be honest I don't really much about NVIDIA nor ATI as neither one of the has put any money in my pocket.

I had two main points here:

(1) Single-card solutions are still what matters most. Even with the advent of SLI, there are many others (such as myself) which do not see it as reasonable to go for a dual card solution.

(2) Sometimes being late-to-market is OK. However, people typically expect that wait to be worth something. DFI's NF4 boards were released much later than most s939 boards, but it turned out to be the best overclocking motherboard of them all. Here's the meat of the idea: With ATI's solutions (r520, main topic of this thread, and X-Fire) being so late-to-market, it is very reasonable for many people to expect significant gains above their competition (such as the DFI NF4 motherboards. Unfortunately, most reasonable people expect ATI's r520 (as an example) to be at best COMPETITIVE to the G70; in other words, there may be a performance gap but it's probably not going to be significant.

There are many people that have continued to delay their next-gen purchases assuming that ATI's solutions will be "worth the wait." I fear that, for some (usually those not being reasonable about the matter), they will be very much disappointed.

deception``

[deception``]

IF such behaviour speks volume then NVIDIA is as good as ATI since NVIDIA has done just as many paper launches in the past.

I agree here. I did not mean to say that one firm was better than the other. After all, who cannot forget the FX 5800 :p

As I have said before, what's most notable about NVIDIA's recent lineup is that it literally promised and delivered at the same time - this is something that not only myself but almost every other reviewer has taken the time to point out. I admit that delays are possible with every piece of hardware, but the r520 has been regarded by many as vaporware up to this point.

deception``

[apu318]

I just checked back on this thread. I was waiting for you to chip in, deception``. You have some good things to say and I mostly agree with you.

Ati is down but not out, yet. They very well may be out though.

The GPU designed for the Xbox360 was mostly dont by Microsoft, not ATI, so it is different than the r520.

[Avg]

To end this discussion for this morning, for everyone that seems to be bashing ATI for the moment, two R520's no matter what they (xl, xt, maybe UFO "lol") are will peak a better performance in CrossFire than the current GeForce SLI lineup, lets face it, unless nVidia puts an end to these stupid required software profiles to run SLI correctly, ATI has the ball. You guy's don't seem to understand that CrossFire is their weapon, not their single GPU's. If ATI can't out perform or at least do equal to nVidia's SLI, that will create a monopoly as we know it for consumers to be forced to buy SLI cards for quite some time, so I sudjest you guy's stop bashing ATI, and wish them some luck, unless of course you want there to be only one company selling dual gpu technology...competition is GOOD for us consumers and overclockers, lets start praying.

Actually crossfire will also require profiles, and nVidia will enable sli for every application in there next Driver release, and if crossfire isn't as good as sli, that won't create a monopoly, most of the cards sold are budget and mainstream, they don't sell that many high cards, and even less people get sli, just for a comparison, how many people here at the forums have either a 2x7800gtx or a 2x6800ultra, not that many know think that most people buying cards couldn't care less about there 3d performance, that is a very small part of the market to manage to create a monopoly. No one is bashing ATi it's a discussion and different opinions will come up that is what the forum is for. I bet only a few people here are hoping for ATi to sink, most of us were hoping that these cards would do well, i don't want to have nVidia as the only choice, at the time when I bought the 7800gt it was because ATi had nothing to compete against it, lets face it ATi screwed up bad, and I bet they are never going to try a die shrink with there flagship again.

[thedoc]

Actually crossfire will also require profiles, and nVidia will enable sli for every application in there next Driver release, and if crossfire isn't as good as sli, that won't create a monopoly, most of the cards sold are budget and mainstream, they don't sell that many high cards, and even less people get sli, just for a comparison, how many people here at the forums have either a 2x7800gtx or a 2x6800ultra, not that many know think that most people buying cards couldn't care less about there 3d performance, that is a very small part of the market to manage to create a monopoly. No one is bashing ATi it's a discussion and different opinions will come up that is what the forum is for. I bet only a few people here are hoping for ATi to sink, most of us were hoping that these cards would do well, i don't want to have nVidia as the only choice, at the time when I bought the 7800gt it was because ATi had nothing to compete against it, lets face it ATi screwed up bad, and I bet they are never going to try a die shrink with there flagship again.

No question it is good for all of us if compition exists between ATI and NV, lets face it, if the race between the two of them did not exist NV may have never bothered developing the 7800 range, because after all the 6800 ran pretty much every game at full res etc.

ATI have lost out on sales because many people inlcuding myself could not wait for ATI to release something so went with NV. And lets face it most people will not buy new cards very often so the cash loss to ATI for being this late could be huge. Not sure anyone want's ATI to sink, i would have thought most people just want the choice, be it from ATI or NV or anyone else. After all the compitition pushes the product development

[cooper15]

"
The GPU designed for the Xbox360 was mostly dont by Microsoft, not ATI, so it is different than the r520."


no the gpu was designed by ati for the xbox360 but microsft owns the chip so ati could not have used it anyway

[austinbmxnig]

The funny thing is that I already know I won't be buying one of these, OR a 7800......I'm waiting for DDR2, r580, M2, and finally the switch to PCI-E.......might have a bit of a wait, but who knows, I could probably get a 7800 pretty cheap if i sold my x800


edit: Also what on earth is that countdown thing on the ATI website?

[Ec]-[oMaN]

Also what on earth is that countdown thing on the ATI website?
Take a wild guess ;) oct 4th ATIs new line of cards

[ShadowClock59]

To end this discussion for this morning, for everyone that seems to be bashing ATI for the moment, two R520's no matter what they (xl, xt, maybe UFO "lol") are will peak a better performance in CrossFire than the current GeForce SLI lineup, lets face it, unless nVidia puts an end to these stupid required software profiles to run SLI correctly, ATI has the ball. You guy's don't seem to understand that CrossFire is their weapon, not their single GPU's. If ATI can't out perform or at least do equal to nVidia's SLI, that will create a monopoly as we know it for consumers to be forced to buy SLI cards for quite some time, so I sudjest you guy's stop bashing ATI, and wish them some luck, unless of course you want there to be only one company selling dual gpu technology...competition is GOOD for us consumers and overclockers, lets start praying.

With the release of the Forceware 81.26 drivers, you dont need the same brand of graphics card to run them together. As in, Evga 7800GT will run with an Asus 7800GT. You dont know anyhting about crossfire yet, you act like it will utterly destroy SLI. No one in there right mind (meaning some here arent) would bash ATI, Im sure as hell not, and never will. Nvidia wont be monopolizing with SLI if it beats crossfire, no one is putting a gun to Consumers heads and saying "You must by this product", seriously, "I" suggest you stop bashing nVidia. Im sure the R5XX will be great, im sure crossfire will be more than enough for anyhting. But saying that the R5xx and crossfire will beat nvidia is just dumb at this point, im not saying they wont, but ATI hasnt released the cards yet, why would you even suggest this?

[deathman20]

The funny thing is that I already know I won't be buying one of these, OR a 7800......I'm waiting for DDR2, r580, M2, and finally the switch to PCI-E.......might have a bit of a wait, but who knows, I could probably get a 7800 pretty cheap if i sold my x800


edit: Also what on earth is that countdown thing on the ATI website?

Your not the only one waiting for DDR2, R580 (or next gen above this one) and M2 socket hehe. I'm in the same boat and its killing me waiting to upgrade currently.

[Mr.Guvernment]

the count down is to the release of the r520' cards / crossfire.