View Full Version : Very odd Block idea...
Ok heres the deal, I was on another site and someone had a pic posted of how the rotary engine works.. Well... As insane as I am, I saw something totally different... Look at the pic and see if you see what I did.........
Now that youve seen it, What I was thinking was, what if you added a peice to the internals of the mounted waterblock to your cpu? A peice that rotates to the water flow? It of course should be of the same type of material as the block itself, and there should be something to help lubricate it so it wont just sand itself away. but What do you think that this would do? I was thinking that it might help lower temps a few degrees.. a block on the inside to help cause turbulance within the block, and even hold some cool from the water being pushed in, granted it might hold some of the heat as well... any ideas anyone?
The Overclocker
10-23-01, 03:55 AM
hmm, friction will be a problem but i dont trall see the advatage of a 'moving wall' with leff thermal conductivity then one that is part of the block
Maximus Nickus
10-23-01, 06:04 AM
interesting idea.
cowanrg
10-23-01, 02:05 PM
good idea, but i dont think that would really benefit at all.
the whole idea behind it is that the chambers are closed when the middle "piston" is in a certain position. so it would actually restrict waterflow.
Gravity Man
10-23-01, 02:18 PM
I don't get it
Well my thought was that it would not really stop the flow so much as just move the water around more... Not real sure, just an idea that hit me at 4am! But Im going to be building my own blocks soon, I might give it a try and see how it could compare...
cowanrg
10-23-01, 02:23 PM
rotary engines, aka "rockwell" engines.
used in very few cars, (Mazda RX-7 is one of them).
if you look at the pic, you can kinda figure out how it works. howefver, ifmu is talking about doing it backwards... instead of using sparks to move the piece in the middle, you use the waterflow to move the block, thus using its motion to induce some sort of turbulence, or cooling effect.
yea cowarng thats the idea...
Kingslayer
10-23-01, 02:42 PM
This will do a couple of things to the block.
1. Vibration. Trust me, this thing will vibrate under a good pump. And probably make one hell of a racket. You really want that on your brand new 1800+ AMD?
2. Although it will help stir things up, you lose alot of volume inside your waterblock. Probably around 70%.
3. What if it sticks and the the water is only being channeled from the incoming tube to the outgoing. You just lost alot of cooling power.
But hey, at least someone is being original.
Well thanks for the thoughts, again just an idea Im throwing out there... What if it was something that wieghed very little, say made of plastic and not metal? Like a wiffle ball but just much smaller? Lots of holes in it, but the freedom to move some, not alot, just some?
What you need is a magnetic stirrer. They have these in labs. A coil moves the magnetic rod around to stir things up. Only prob would be the magnetism scrambling the cpu! Or would it?
RangerJoe34
10-23-01, 08:45 PM
i have heard that if you make a block that has a completely open center
i dont know how to insert a picture for the message, so please tell me how if you please and ill show you the idea
William
10-23-01, 09:17 PM
why not just add something else non moving to increase turbulence? Random copper bits soddered to the base would do that as would little copper walls or sharp corners in a maze type block. I think it is a neat idea, but vibration and it getting stuck are of concern.
m1066ad
10-24-01, 12:55 AM
What on earth makes you think that turbulence would help??
Originally posted by RangerJoe34
i have heard that if you make a block that has a completely open center
i dont know how to insert a picture for the message, so please tell me how if you please and ill show you the idea
Well Ive read this 3 or 4 times and it still looses me. No offense but I think you cut yourself off mid-thought.
Ok by my limited understanding turbulence forces the water to be able to hit more (in effect) of the surface area of the inside of the block.
Im almost positive that that will make nearly no sense, but if everyone that makes blocks and sells them claims that you want it, it must have a benefit.
Now back to my original thoughts here. Ok Now if you want turbulence inside the block, I can understand the idea of just adding rougher edges inside. But my thoughts here are that if the peice on the inside is loose enough to move some and yet large enough not to slam around and move the block wouldnt it be able to absorb the cold from the water that is being forced in? Which in turn, cooling the water? Granted I dont see this making a major difference in temps, but I think it might help a little. Which in my thinking, if you get 4 or 5 different things that help just a little, you will get a much larger difference.
Random Nonsense
10-24-01, 04:48 AM
Originally posted by m1066ad
What on earth makes you think that turbulence would help??
there is no such thing as a perfect fluid, they all have viscosity, therefore when they pass over a surface, the fluid directly in contact with the surface is slowed by friction, and the next "layer" up slowed by this.... now we all know that we want to get the heat away from the source as fast as possible, so having a boundary layer of slower moving water will mean the heat is not removed as quickly, turbulence will stur up the boundary layer, so getting cooler water into contact with the surface again, therefore it is able to remove more heat!
The idea off making a water block like a rotary engine would only really be worth it if you made the top out of plexi, it would just look really cool! no extra performance at all.
Maximus Nickus
10-24-01, 05:04 AM
this whole thing is crazy!! I'm gonna stick to watercooling the normal way!
Originally posted by Random Nonsense
The idea off making a water block like a rotary engine would only really be worth it if you made the top out of plexi, it would just look really cool! no extra performance at all.
Well as luck would have it I am in the process of making a plexi block, so it just might look very schweet :p.
Originally posted by nick_cw
this whole thing is crazy!! I'm gonna stick to watercooling the normal way!
The normal way? and you call yourself an overclocker?!!!
Sorry man, no such thing as normal when it comes to adding water to a computer setup!!!
m1066ad
10-24-01, 05:37 AM
Quote:
Im almost positive that that will make nearly no sense, but if everyone that makes blocks and sells them claims that you want it, it must have a benefit.
Yeah, and racing stripes will make it go faster ;)
That explanation didn't make any sense to me. I don't think it'll help. In fact, I'd think LESS turbulence would help.
Random Nonsense
10-24-01, 06:18 AM
Originally posted by m1066ad
Quote:
That explanation didn't make any sense to me. I don't think it'll help. In fact, I'd think LESS turbulence would help.
trust me on it :) i know a fair bit about this stuff because im learning a lot about aerodynamics at college.... air is a fluid, behaves like water.... boundary layer is a factor, not a huge one but turbulance will give u maybe a degree or 2 better performance.
proof of what i said: the tubing restricts flow. Why is this? the friction between the water molecules and the walls of the tubing!
it is like using lots of small tubes in a radiator than one huge pipe! the water in the middle is not picking up as much heat as the water close to the surface.... introducing turbulence lets this water take heat from the surface, therefore more cooling!
The Overclocker
10-24-01, 08:02 AM
cooling always comes down to surface area, by putting a moving block in you loose some surface area as the block is not fixed and will not conduct well.
if you want something to look cool, a plexi water block with a small fan in it would look great
Intraveinous
10-24-01, 09:14 AM
Large surface area is far more important in an air cooled setup than a water cooled one. And in all actuality, putting an obstruction, moving or not, in a large open cavity will increase the surface area, not reduce it. Think of it the same way as a heatsink... Heatsink that was just a flat chunk of copper wouldn't cool very well, however if you put a fin (or lots of fins) in there to fill in the space, you increase surface area several fold...
Peace
John
RangerJoe34
10-24-01, 11:15 AM
yea i didnt cut myself off mid thought
but i do believe that if you make the water travel in a "whirlpool" type way then it would work pretty well, go to the watercooling section of the front page and they did a review of a block like this, and will someone please tell me how to put a picture on my post not just attach it i would greatly appreciate it.....
It needs to be a jpeg image from what I have seen and it cant be larger than 660x600 or over a certain size. But you select the attach file you browse and place it within ... i also had troubles with post pics for quite some time then it just worked... hope that was of some help...
RangerJoe34
10-24-01, 04:36 PM
ok, i know how to attach a file, i want to put it directly on the reply so that people dont have to d/l the pic but can just see it on the thread
r0ckstarbob
10-24-01, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Random Nonsense
trust me on it :) i know a fair bit about this stuff because im learning a lot about aerodynamics at college.... air is a fluid, behaves like water.... boundary layer is a factor, not a huge one but turbulance will give u maybe a degree or 2 better performance.
proof of what i said: the tubing restricts flow. Why is this? the friction between the water molecules and the walls of the tubing!
it is like using lots of small tubes in a radiator than one huge pipe! the water in the middle is not picking up as much heat as the water close to the surface.... introducing turbulence lets this water take heat from the surface, therefore more cooling!
william and random nonsense are on the money
when a fluid moves across a non moving surface, there is a point where the fluid comes into contact with that surface. (obviously). we'll call the surface the Block.
when that happens, the surface of the liquid reacts against the friction of the Block where they contact one another and the motion on the surface of the liquid slows down or stops at that contact point. this is called the boundry layer.
as we know, moving liquid across a surface is what provides us the best heat transfer abilities. when that liquid stops, it's doing a less efficient job. the liquid of the boundry layer is relying on normal convection to warm it up enough so it rises off the contact surface and back into the waterflow. at which point it's replaced with something cooler when it leaves.
creating a small amount of turbulence on the contact surface of the block will prevent the boundry layer from forming and increase the Heat Transfer potential of your apparatus.
due to the size of our systems, this performance increase is marginal at best, but it's there. and we all know that its the little things all added up in the end that give us the performance we're looking for.
William was right. randomly soddered little 'nubbs' along the surface of the copper would work and create enough turbulence to prevent the boundry layer from forming - so would small perpendicular grooves (as in a unfinished piece of copper, or taking a file to the surface of it). where this becomes a factor in a tube, they generally fasten a small wire or spring inside the length of the tube to which breaks up the boundry layer and helps maintain a little surface turbulence. on another note, this technique might also help you guys with radiator problems looking to grab another couple of degrees of cooling power from it. i haven't tested it, but in theory it should be a decent idea.
ifmu - your idea isn't without merit but i believe is overkill if the only purpose is to create turbulence inside your block. there are alot of parts that need to be kept in optimal working order, which would require a certain amount of maintenance. theres also the issue of reduced flow rates due to the resistance of your rotating "piston".
keep crankin mr man. nice to see original ideas up here.
slick306
10-24-01, 08:52 PM
Strap twin turbors on the rotary engine!
:)
rx7 :)
Randall
10-25-01, 02:40 AM
hey, the copper stirrer that they use in biology labs.... if the magnetic interference wasn't a problem, that could create a decent amount of turbulence in the center of a pool-type block... i think that being able to set that up would be hard, and i'm pretty sure that someone once told me not to mix water and electronics <which, by the way, i have ignored recently and my DD M2 will be here shortly> and not to mix magnets and electronics <which i might not ever do; perhaps some good advice> so.. yeah, its a GREAT idea... in theory...
i have no clue what i talk about, especially when i have a test tomorrow and i'm up this late! argh, i need to quit drinking before tests!
-Randall
Maximus Nickus
11-05-01, 05:50 PM
Its 1AM, ive had a few beers, im tired, got a headache and this is just way to confusing.... Oh look a pig just came in through the window!!!!
P.S. Can anyone explain this in a simplified way?
Über~PhLuBB
11-05-01, 09:08 PM
Completely off the subject here, I've always wanted to know what the difference is between a Rotary engine and a Wankel engine. They both use either a single (Or in the RX-7's case, 2 "pistons") piston with 3 "chambers" per "piston". The onyl difference I can see is that a Wankel engine's "chambers" have a hinge between them.
funnyperson1
11-05-01, 09:28 PM
when did plexiglass start conducting heat? last i checked it conducts as well as plastic, cna you saymeltdown?
RangerJoe34
11-05-01, 11:50 PM
here we go
Ok ranger, thats something that Ive seen before, however most make it go the exact opposite. The water comes in hits the exact spot of the die and then exits in some fashion. Its thought that it might drop the actual die temp a point or two... since the coldest water is hitting the die directly then flowing away and out...
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