Freon Freon Freon...

[bigfoot]

Hi Guise,

I have a couple questions just killing me because I want to be able to build a liquid cooling system and *cough, cough*money is an issue in this case.

I want to know if it's possible to use Freon in a liquid cooling system similar to one like this:
http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/01q2/010528/images/aufbau.jpg

Second, dumb question I know but is Freon a liquid or gas? And last but not least, If it is possible to do this, where could I possibly get some Freon?

Thanks a bunch, Bigfoot

[Morphoius]

You use freon becuase it is a liquid under pressure and a gas when not under pressure. when it is a gas it obviusly has a lower temp.

if you want a standard watercooling system use water.

if you want to use freon i would buy a vapochill or mod a fridge or something. i doubt it would be a smart thing to do it yourself.

water has a much higher ability to conduct heat, so you use water in a watercooling system.

BTW: the link didn't work

[Christoph]

Bienvenue,
If you really mean liquid, then go with water. It's much simpler to deal with and consequently you can mod it with greater ease and a lower chance of breaking your cooling.
My bong system is costing me around US$160, although it could be done well for less, maybe as little as US$125 or so.
If you really want some mad cooling, talk to rockstarb0b about his cooling project.
BTW, what's your price range?

[VashTheStampede]

Deja vu.. second time today, different forum, that I have to go against freon cooling.

Leaking freon + heat or open flame = KABOOM!!

Case in point, a guy took his Corvette to a auto shop which will remain unnamed to have his A/C fixed and refilled. Well they did a **** poor job and within minutes of taking it out of the shop, freon was leaking. He parked his Vette in a parking lot with no shade, in direct sunlight, in the middle of Summer. Fifteen minutes later he hears an explosion, he rushes outside to see what is left of his once beautiful Vette. What was noticable at first was all the glass was blown out and his hood had buckled straight up.

Now for those who like to smoke and run a freon-based cooled computer, think twice before you light up that next cigarette. Can you imagine your case exploding to the magnitude that guy's Vette did?

~RT~

[The Overclocker]

water is quite a good coolant, really

[Big Mike]

Uh, While I've been known to be wrong, I'm relatively sure of this one. Freon is NOT flammable. Theres two possibilities of what happened to that vette, either a. its system was significantly over pressurized and blew apart when the heat took it way above the pressure it could handle or B. someone used propane or the like to refill it, its completely illegal BECAUSE its flammable, no approved refrigerant is flammable...or it could just have been a wives tale, the moral of the story, if you use freon be careful not to over pressurize your system

[Intraveinous]

I'm not sure about the flamability of freon, and I don't think I'll go try it to find out, but regardless of it's flamability, it is TOXIC, and very hard to get (REAL R12 Freon anyway, other refridgerants that aren't so dangerous both to people and the environment are easier and cheaper). If I had a leak in my freon system, I'd be far more worried about dieing from inhaling it than having my computer explode, though I'd rather not do either... Fun thing about freon is this: it's quite a bit heavier than air, so, if by chance you get some in your lungs, you cannot exhale it without being turned upside down. It just pools in your lungs... several years ago before they knew everything they do now about certain things, the highschool I went to used to have Freon in the dark room for cleaning negatives... Because it's heavier than air, you just spray some at your negs, and it falls and pushes all the dust off of them. Anyway, some kid decided it'd be a good idea to huff some... Took a nice breath, talked like Darth Vader for a sec (reverse effect as inhaling helium, which is lighter than air) and then fell over... there was an emergency helicopter on the football field and alla that, the fire department is right across the street from the school, so he had medical attention like 5 minutes after this all happened, but he died... So yeah, moral of the story is this, Freon is dangerous... so if you decide to use it, be careful, whether it's for flamability or inhalation that you choose to be careful, I still suggest you have something professionally put together.
Peace
John

[Christoph]

That's some scary stuff. I think most here wouldn't huff their coolant, but there's nothing you're going to say that'll separate me from my bong cooler now. Not for anything freon-based, anyway.

[BubbaJoeLouis]

A little history...

Pure ammonia, the original refrigerant, is very toxic to humans, so DuPont made a non-toxic version, CFC-12 back in the 30's. This is safe for humans, is not flammable, but supposedly "deletes the ozone layer." (I would love to discuss that topic, but not now...) CFC-12 goes under the trade name of Freon(TM)*.

As for the poor Corvette, I think gasoline is flammable, and bad mechanics do tend to smoke while under the hood...

If you would like to use a refrigerant, that would be a "cool" project, you should be able to acheive -27*F, but you have alot to learn.

Please check out this link:
How fridges work. (http://www.howstuffworks.com/refrigerator.htm)

As for explaining how they work in this forum, forget it! :) No one ever seems to agree and everyone argues thereby confusing the questioner. :p

But please don't be discouraged by people who just say "don't!" You can do anything as long as your are safe, do your homework, and dont give up. Oh yeah, and spend enough money.

But if you think you can just ask "how do I use freon?" in a forum and *POOF* a Freon cooling system appears, think again! :) You will have to work yer butt off!

Good Luck,
BJL;)

*The CFCs are a group of aliphatic organic compounds containing the elements carbon and fluorine and, in many cases, other halogens (especially chlorine) and hydrogen. The name Freon is a trademark registered by the E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Company. Whe using the term (name) Freon in contracting or purchasing, it should always be noted that the term is a trademark. It is often used without regard to its' domicile as a trademark.
The Freons neither present a fire hazard nor give off a detectable odour in their circulation through refrigerating and air-conditioning systems. The most important members of the group have been dichlorodifluoromethane (Freon 12), trichlorofluoromethane (Freon 11), chlorodifluoromethane (Freon 113

[Intraveinous]

Well then, Thank you very much for the information! I suppose 'TOXIC' wasn't the greatest word for it.. The kid most likely died from suffocation, not being able to displace the freon (TM) in his lungs with normal air... And I wasn't suggesting anyone huff their coolant, dihydrogen monoxide as we should all know by now can be deadly if inhaled as well, and if not deadly, it sure doesn't feel very good... :D So yeah... I stand corrected on it's toxicity, though I thought it was supposed to be dangerous if your car develops a freon (TM) leak and you're running the air conditioning... There are so many damn urban legends it's hard to know what to believe or not believe...
heh...
Peace
John

[Sir-Epix]

Originally posted by bigfoot
Hi Guise,

I have a couple questions just killing me because I want to be able to build a liquid cooling system and *cough, cough*money is an issue in this case.

I want to know if it's possible to use Freon in a liquid cooling system similar to one like this:
http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/01q2/010528/images/aufbau.jpg

Second, dumb question I know but is Freon a liquid or gas? And last but not least, If it is possible to do this, where could I possibly get some Freon?

Thanks a bunch, Bigfoot

NO! Sorry but Freon would be illegal. As you my know it destroys the OZone layer. Now only certified people can only use Freon with special machines so that no Freon is lost and destroys the O3 molecules.

[ptcg]

The 'original' freon (R-12) is VERY hard to get, but R134a (which replaced R-12) you can buy in any auto parts store for under $10 a can. (I found it in Walmart for $5)

R-134A is not illegal, but releasing into the atmosphere is.

You can't use refrigerant in a 'standard' liquid cooled system.. You need to have a refrigeration setup. The refrigerant needs to be compressed to effectively cool.

I haven't had any leaks at all in my homemade setup & it runs like a champ! much cooler than water, no maintenance (yet), more compact.. I'd choose phase change over water any day!

*This type of setup is NOT for everybody.. You really do need to know what you're doing if you build you own.

If you want the phase change setup without knowing what you're doing, spend $600 on a Vapochill. (I built mine for under $200)

[BubbaJoeLouis]

Here is a website for environmentally friendly "freon" :

http://autorefrigerants.com/ (http://)

It includes info about a few manufacturers of friendly CFCs.

Good Luck,
BJL;)

P.S. Have you thought about the fact that O3 is created primarilly by lightning ionizing the air? Have you further thought that there is not much lightning at the South Pole? Hmm....

[BubbaJoeLouis]

Originally posted by ptcg

I haven't had any leaks at all in my homemade setup & it runs like a champ! much cooler than water, no maintenance (yet), more compact.. I'd choose phase change over water any day!

*This type of setup is NOT for everybody.. You really do need to know what you're doing if you build you own.

If you want the phase change setup without knowing what you're doing, spend $600 on a Vapochill. (I built mine for under $200)

Ok enough teasing, where is the article on your setup? How about some pictures? Gimme gimme!!! I need I need. What about converting a dorm fridge?

BJL;)

[Christoph]

Hey ptgc, where did you learn to do that kind of modding? It sounds like something cool to replace my bong cooler in few years. Is it part of your job, or could I plausibly learn online?

BTW, I know that I know nothing, and I won't even consider attempting something like that until I know what I'm going to do in advance.

[VashTheStampede]

Well the hood buckling straight up shows there was an explosion under the hood, the gas tank is at the opposite end of the vehicle. If the remaining gas in the engine were to ignite, I would feel the gas tank would have the high probability of igniting as well. The glass was blown out, so that shows whatever was ignited, was airborn and present within the car.

Our A/C expert was not in tonight, when/if he comes in tomorrow night, I will ask him if freon is flammable as a gas. It's the only explanation I can come to that would result in the glass blowing out and hood buckling.

Ok found some articles, duh all I did was go to Yahoo and type in flammable freon, heh.

Flammable hydrocarbon mixtures are being marketed and sold as CFC-12 substitutes for vehicles. They may be present in the air-conditioning systems of some vehicles. These mixtures pose a new fire hazard to workers in repair garages. The flammable mixtures may also pose a fire hazard to passengers of vehicles if a substantial amount of the mixture leaks into the passenger compartment.

http://www.labour.gov.sk.ca/safety/bulletins/flammable-hydrocarbon.htm

It is important to note that 134a is not only toxic (click here for details), but auto ignites under only
5 psia of pressure at temperatures far lower than those typical of HC's. With typical 134a
low side pressures under operating conditions being between 30 and 50 psia and high side pressures
being around 190 psia, there seems little substance to the argument that HCFC's are not flammable,
and in fact appear to be illegal for use in the state of Idaho, if one adheres to the spirit of the law.
In fairness the compound will not burn in its inert state, but that is not the state under which
it is shipped, let alone used. The product, as shipped in cans and cylinders, is always under pressure

http://www.freon-replacements.com/

~RT~

[ptcg]

Just click the WWW under my sig.. I have all pix, and lots of info on what I did & how..

I've never worked with refrigeration before this project.. I was actually looking through a surplus supply catalog we got at work because they had some killer fans, blowers, etc.. & I wanted something to cool my watercooling setup better.

I just happened to see a small refrigeration unit in there for only $50! Couldn't pass that up! I got the unit, gutted it & modded it to fit the PC.

Along the way I asked advice from people I knew who have worked in A/C & refrigeration for years. I also found some pointers HERE (http://www.hvac-talk.com/) . It's a forum for A/C & refrigeration topics.

I'm the forman in a small machine shop out here (been there for almost 15 yrs now) where I program & run CNC lathes, millers, etc.. So I had access to the equipment/materials to make all the pieces I needed to finish the setup off.

It was a lot of work, but fun, well worth it & I learned A LOT along the way. best of all the total cost was under $200! About the same as some peoples bong setups, and it runs much colder, it's totaly compact, portable & maintenance free (so far)!!

[Christoph]

I'm not sure if I should look into that now. I'd hate to have strong motivation to ditch my yet-to-be-used bong.
Looks like a good thing, though. Wish I'd seen it earlier.