View Full Version : Artic Silver 2 becoming "silver plated"
zoopa_man
10-31-01, 05:29 PM
I remember a while ago Hoot and I had brought up a question about Artic Silver II turning to a solid state. I also remember no one having any explanation for it.
Here's some of my data from my pc. I had the same phenomenon happen again. Though my setup might give some clues to what's going on.
my setup :
PIII733 - copper shim - AS2 - copper cold plate - as2 - 80w peltier - as2 - danger den maze
I use a 2cool computer's hold down to compress this stack of stuff. If you’re not familiar with it, it's just a nylon screw in the center of a steel rod. It presses directly over the center and I tighten it down to "finger tight" any more and I'd rip the tabs off the side of my cpu/motherboard.
Yah, I know what your thinking, lots of AS2 in there. I wanted to be sure everything was getting good heat transfer and It was I assume.
Room temp 25C
Cpu idle -10C
Cpu full load 1C
I ran my system like this for a good four months. Yesterday I was forced to rip it apart to replace my peltier (committed suicide)
What I found was our phenomenon again where the AS2 had "plated" it's self to the bottom of my DD block very well. Some of the AS2 was still in it's original paste form but a very thin layer of it has covered the bottom of my DDblock. I can peel it off just like gold leafing; it's kind of neat.
One thing I noticed is that this did not occur between the cold plate and the cold side of the peltier. This only occurred where there was extreme heat form the peltier and the copper block. I can imagine it got pretty hot in there. Although I don't know how hot.
Has any one else have this happen?
Does anyone know why this happens or is it still a mystery to us ?
And If we know why this happens,
How does the “plated” AS2 affect heat transfer?
It_The_Cow
10-31-01, 07:20 PM
My hypothesis is this
Artic Silver has its limits. All thermal pastes probably have one. If you remember the generic white silcon pastes, you'll probably notice that they become crusty and hard after time. I know mine did. This probably occured over several months, and maybe even years.
For Artic Silver, this will probably happen more often and be more extreme. Most usersof it are most likely overclockers who run stressing programs (ie F@H, Seti, Prime95). Most of the time, 24/7. In your case, you have it exposed to 80 watts of heat, almost twice as much as a non-overclocked AMD. Because of this, the AS may catalyze. In Hoot's case, crystals, and in yours, a thin film.
The cystals were probably detrimental to the heat transfer, but the film may be benficial, that is if you removed the paste the silver was suspended in. The reasoning is logical. Why a film was created is strange. If I remember, Hoot was using air cooling. You're using water. Maybe it's caused by an electric charge which causes the silver to spread out evenly.
As I said, this is only a hypothesis. It's based entirely on observations, nothing more. If you object to any of my thoughts, feel free to do so. I have no degrees of any sort, and my mind is still learning
Sounds good! I have taken tons of heatsinks off of circuit boards over the years and ALL the paste was dried. There is probably a good percentage of moisture in the stuff and when it goes, well.
Sorry to hear of your pelt meltdown. :( I lost a couple of 120s a few weeks ago.
A few other folks running pelt systems have had this happen. With four different pelt systems, this has yet to happen to me. The theory is the hydraulic pressure combined with the extra Arctic Silver necessary to fill the gap on between the usually concave pelt and coldplate or waterblock causes this. As long as you don’t take your waterblock/pelt/coldplate apart, it won’t hurt anything. I would recommend lapping the affected surfaces before reassembling.
Dang, I always forget sonething. The ones that were dry were the ones I took off because of failure. Mainly burnt out. Paste was a thin film or cooked. What is the max heat limit of this stuff?
It looks like some are getting into that area.
o¢r*Aiwa
10-31-01, 07:43 PM
The solution is simple.
Arctic silver contains 75-85% silver oxide and 25-15% carrier material (probably silicon nature). It's recommended work temperature is 0-120°C (or 140°C but doesnt matter neway). The thing is Arctic Silver II was *not* ment to be used below freezing point, and the cold side of a Pelt gets definitely below 0 degree.
What happens is that the thermal conducting substance (silver oxide) and the carrier substance begin to seperate. In fact the carrier substance starts to wander off the contact area due to the temperature changes that happen when using Peltiers and the remaining substance starts to change it's characteristics (thermal and electrical conductivity for example).
This effect of course also occurs on the hot side since there are extreme temp changes. This probably causes the "foil" effect which should theorethically decrease cooling performance.
I conclude, Arcitc Silver (II) is *not* recommandable when using peltiers. You need (very expensive) special Peltier contact geles or carrier-less thermal compounds (as used in Vapochill and Cryotech cases) to eliminate this effect.
You could also just buy some thermal grease that is rated for lower degrees like Silicon-Freeze (down to -40°C), but these probably don't have that good conduction ratings.
But, but, his "failure" happened on the hot side.
It_The_Cow
10-31-01, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by mw521
But, but, his "failure" happened on the hot side. That's right. If you've read about peltiers, you'll know that they work best with pressures around 300lbs. This extreme pressure, heat, and possibly electricity may cause this cataclysm. To me, it resembles the process in which diamonds are made, but in much, much lesser conditions
I think you got it! Most electronic devices that need heat dissipation are screwed/bolted very tightly to the heatsink.(mass production, tighter is better). Whatcha got? Heat and pressure!
Kingslayer
10-31-01, 08:01 PM
Nope. Not a heat thing. My CPU temps rarely break 95 degrees F., and I'm sure that Pelt is hotter than that.
I'm seeing this same thing on my FOP-32's when I pull them apart. After a while the ASII starts to fail. Things start warming up. I pull it off and it's has areas that are hard.
But my heatsinks are aluminium. But wait. What do I have around my chips. A copper shim.
Are we seeing a galvanic reaction between ASII and Copper? Or are we seeing it between the ASII and Aluminium?
Could be. You know copper and aluminum don't "electrically" mix.
It_The_Cow
10-31-01, 08:09 PM
I think it may indeed be a reaction of some sort. My temperatures at one point increased about 10°C within a week. I haven't noticed the crystals yet, but they may have been too minute at the time to be seen. So far, the instances have occured when copper is included. Hoots' MC462, Zoppa's waterblock, Kingslayer's coppershim, and my P3125. Are there any chemists around to explain
o¢r*Aiwa
10-31-01, 08:21 PM
Anyways, I stopped using Arctic Silver II after reading and seeing these effects myself. I am using extremely expensive peltier gele at the peltier and HiEnd Silicon-Freeze thermal compound between CPU and coldplate. This works fine without side effects.
zoopa_man
10-31-01, 08:45 PM
God were nerds :cool: I didn't expect this many responses but it's great.
I'm no chemist by any means but I know we have some around here somewhere. I would really like to know if this is infact a chemical reaction. Maybe tomorrow I'll toss out a letter to the makers of ASII to see what their take on all this is. I really want to know.
One thing I never added was the fact that I also noticed an Increase in temps, this may be due to the fact that the hardened AS2 has terrible thermal properties, which would leave me to believe that the hardened part isn't silver, because silver is a very good heat conductor, it must be some other materials in the AS2 or it's just dried out. (<--first period in paragraph) Just got done with english essay that i know will be destroyed by picky professors. So long paragraph is my revenge for the day. hehehe I can feel the stress leaving my body now...ahhhh
Originally posted by o¢r*Aiwa
The solution is simple.
Arctic silver contains 75-85% silver oxide and 25-15% carrier material (probably silicon nature). It's recommended work temperature is 0-120°C (or 140°C but doesnt matter neway). The thing is Arctic Silver II was *not* ment to be used below freezing point, and the cold side of a Pelt gets definitely below 0 degree.
What happens is that the thermal conducting substance (silver oxide) and the carrier substance begin to seperate. In fact the carrier substance starts to wander off the contact area due to the temperature changes that happen when using Peltiers and the remaining substance starts to change it's characteristics (thermal and electrical conductivity for example).
This effect of course also occurs on the hot side since there are extreme temp changes. This probably causes the "foil" effect which should theorethically decrease cooling performance.
I conclude, Arcitc Silver (II) is *not* recommandable when using peltiers. You need (very expensive) special Peltier contact geles or carrier-less thermal compounds (as used in Vapochill and Cryotech cases) to eliminate this effect.
You could also just buy some thermal grease that is rated for lower degrees like Silicon-Freeze (down to -40°C), but these probably don't have that good conduction ratings.
Frist, Arctic Silver does not contain silver oxide. The silver used is pure 99.99% micronized silver. From Arctic Silver's Web Site "Extended temperature limits: – 40°C to >160°C" I would also like to point out that Michigan State University is using Arctic Silver in thier Kryostat at 87 K because it outpeforms all other thermal compounds at extreme low temps.
Regarding Vapochill, from my conversations with Mike at Minotaur, they have no problem with using Arctic Silver. They even use it on their personal machines. I have also spoken with Kryotech in the last two weeks. They are looking into using Arctic Silver.
Second, read my first post in this thread for an explaination of what really happened. If you send a note to Arctic Silver, I believe you will get the same basic response.
zoopa_man
10-31-01, 09:23 PM
Thanks colin. Have the people you talked to mention anything about this happening to them? And have they mentioned anything about it effecting the thermal properties of their components ?
Foiling is a phenomenon that will occur with any metal based compound given a certain very narrow set of circumstances.
1. It only occurs under EXTREME pressure. For example a coldplate attached to a peltier with several hundred psi of pressure.
2. One or the other mating surface must be concave so that compound is trapped.
3. One or the other mating surface must flex when heated to further compress the trapped compound.
Under these very specific circumstances, the malleable metal particles are fused together under the extreme pressure. This will occur with ANY metal based compound, not just Arctic Silver.
Under the specific conditions that cause foiling, ceramic based compounds should be used. While not as good at thermal transfer, the ceramic particles are very hard and not subject to being pressed together under extreme pressure.
Nevin House
Arctic Silver, Inc.
Off hand I can think of three people I know that have experience this. There may be more. I don't believe the temps were affected. There was quite a discussion on Hard Forums about this a few months ago. I believe the conclusion was the "foiling" did not cause a problem unless the thermal interface was mechanically disturbed.
What I have noticed in my dealings with the Maze 2.2 is that pulling the block and retorquing the coldplate bolts after a few days of initial use seems to prevent the dreaded temperature rise over time. I highly recommend a temp probe on your coldplate to help monitor the situation.
o¢r*Aiwa
10-31-01, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by Colin
Frist, Arctic Silver does not contain silver oxide. The silver used is pure 99.99% micronized silver. From Arctic Silver's Web Site "Extended temperature limits: – 40°C to >160°C" I would also like to point out that Michigan State University is using Arctic Silver in thier Kryostat at 87 K because it outpeforms all other thermal compounds at extreme low temps.
Regarding Vapochill, from my conversations with Mike at Minotaur, they have no problem with using Arctic Silver. They even use it on their personal machines. I have also spoken with Kryotech in the last two weeks. They are looking into using Arctic Silver.
Second, read my first post in this thread for an explaination of what really happened. If you send a note to Arctic Silver, I believe you will get the same basic response.
You are right about the silver used. I didn't look up the term and just remember something about metal oxides used in thermal compounds so I guessed it was silver oxide. Isn't essential anyways.
FACT IS though that I saw multiple product descriptions on overclocking shops that state "0°C to 120°C" under working conditions. The paste sure works "somehow" out of these conditions, but definitely not as planned.
I don't know what your kryofriends are doing in their labs, but I believe what I *see*, and I saw that Arctic Silver II ****s up after a certain period of usage and is *definitely* not a good choice of peltiers due to it's carrier component!
This is not only theorethical, this is the result of several tests I made with my cooling (156watt Peltier on a 1.4 GHz T-Bird).
And I strongly doubt Arctic Silver would reply anything negative about the product they want to sell ;)
o¢r*Aiwa
10-31-01, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by Nevin
Foiling is a phenomenon that will occur with any metal based compound given a certain very narrow set of circumstances.
1. It only occurs under EXTREME pressure. For example a coldplate attached to a peltier with several hundred psi of pressure.
2. One or the other mating surface must be concave so that compound is trapped.
3. One or the other mating surface must flex when heated to further compress the trapped compound.
Under these very specific circumstances, the malleable metal particles are fused together under the extreme pressure. This will occur with ANY metal based compound, not just Arctic Silver.
Under the specific conditions that cause foiling, ceramic based compounds should be used. While not as good at thermal transfer, the ceramic particles are very hard and not subject to being pressed together under extreme pressure.
Nevin House
Arctic Silver, Inc.
Which should finally *prove* that arctic silver is not recommended for peltier usage since:
1. Peltiers should be mounted at EXTREME pressures
2. Peltier surfaces are always a bit concave
3. The coldplate *does* flex due to the extreme thermal changes
Originally posted by o¢r*Aiwa
FACT IS though that I saw multiple product descriptions on overclocking shops that state "0°C to 120°C" under working conditions. The paste sure works "somehow" out of these conditions, but definitely not as planned.
I don't know what your kryofriends are doing in their labs, but I believe what I *see*, and I saw that Arctic Silver II ****s up after a certain period of usage and is *definitely* not a good choice of peltiers due to it's carrier component!
This is not only theorethical, this is the result of several tests I made with my cooling (156watt Peltier on a 1.4 GHz T-Bird).
And I strongly doubt Arctic Silver would reply anything negative about the product they want to sell ;)
I seriously doubt the overclocking shops you cite have done the research and development that Arctic Silver has. I’ll trust Arctic Silver’s specs over a retailer’s comments.
I do not doubt your claim that you experienced foiling. As I stated, there are three folks (all very good overclockers) I know that have also experienced this phenomenon. The bottom line was the foiling did not cause a problem unless the thermal interface was mechanically disturbed.
Our experience is that foiling will occur in approximately 1% of peltier systems.
If a system experiences foiling, it will occur with any thermal compound that contains silver, copper or aluminum.
If you believe that this makes Arctic Silver II unsuitable for ALL peltier systems, you certainly have a right to that OPINION.
Meanwhile, we will be releasing our pure ceramic non-silicone thermal compound in a couple of weeks. Based on a layered aluminum oxide and boron nitride composite, it will not foil under any conditions.
While the ultimate performance is not quite up to AS2, it is not capacitive and will cost a lot less. ($3.95 retail per tube.)
Nevin
o¢r*Aiwa
10-31-01, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by Colin
I do not doubt your claim that you experienced foiling. As I stated, there are three folks (all very good overclockers) I know that have also experienced this phenomenon. The bottom line was the foiling did not cause a problem unless the thermal interface was mechanically disturbed.
Which is probably the case as soon as you transport your PC to a LANparty. I once experienced a significant heat increase after a transport without any visible waterblock loosening or screw untightening. Coldplate temps were also same as ever.
o¢r*Aiwa
10-31-01, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by Nevin
Meanwhile, we will be releasing our pure ceramic non-silicone thermal compound in a couple of weeks. Based on a layered aluminum oxide and boron nitride composite, it will not foil under any conditions.
nice 1!
Originally posted by o¢r*Aiwa
Which is probably the case as soon as you transport your PC to a LANparty. I once experienced a significant heat increase after a transport without any visible waterblock loosening or screw untightening. Coldplate temps were also same as ever.
If the coldplate temps were the same, the waterblock/pelt/coldpate may have lost optimum contact with the CPU die. Does your coldplate bolt to the waterblock?
Christoph
11-01-01, 02:00 AM
Howcome nobody's mentioned Nanotherm Ice? It's based on nanoceramics (no Ag, Cu etc..) and is rated a little bit better than AS2, depending on where you look (it's close everywhere I've seen). I got some, but haven't had the chance to try it out 'cuz I killed my comp putting it on (accident not related to thermal goop). I bought it because it looked like some classy stuff, but now I've got another reason to add a pelt if my bong cooler just isn't cutting it. I think I paid US$4 for a tube (and then US$4.45 for shipping).
It's easy to find on google.com. I'm a little too tired to post a link, and I don't recall where I got it from, anyway.
r0ckstarbob
11-01-01, 05:42 AM
this is a great thread. thanks guys for this. never run into it personally but nice to know the possibilities.
good arguements on both sides of the house.
o¢r*Aiwa
11-01-01, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by Colin
If the coldplate temps were the same, the waterblock/pelt/coldpate may have lost optimum contact with the CPU die. Does your coldplate bolt to the waterblock?
It's a DangerDen Maze 2-2 waterblock. That should answer the question :)
Contact was definitely lost between coldplate and CPU when looking at the effects, but there was no untightening visible or feelable when I disassembled the PC and looked for the reason.
Btw: Does anyone know the exact dimensions / name of the plastic bolts used to connect the coldplate to the mainboard? I'm afraid my plastic bolts are worn out and I waste a lot of cooling capacities. My never gets above 10°C while the MBM shows 25°C on the CPU (TB 1.4 @ 1.65 and 1.82 VCore). I don't think 15 degrees difference is normal (Motherboard is an A7V133 btw).
I have tried a silver spacer, copper spacer and different compounds lately without any effect, seems like my bolts are "screwed" ;)
Kingslayer
11-01-01, 02:07 PM
Let's use a little common sense on the matter.
1. Heat. This isn't the issue. We're seeing it on Pelts, waterblocks, and heatsink. All have different temps well within the products limitations.
2. Pressure. This aint it either. Pelts work better compressed. Ok, but what about the waterblocks? They arent that tight. And look at my FOP's. Sure those FOP clips are monster, but I dont have them on there, I'm using little weak clips on my FOPs...
3. Material. This is the only common denominator with this happening. And it seems to be copper. We already know that copper and aluminium dont mix. Maybe copper doesnt play well with silver either.
Originally posted by Kingslayer
Let's use a little common sense on the matter.
2. Pressure. This aint it either. Pelts work better compressed. Ok, but what about the waterblocks? They arent that tight. And look at my FOP's. Sure those FOP clips are monster, but I dont have them on there, I'm using little weak clips on my FOPs...
3. Material. This is the only common denominator with this happening. And it seems to be copper. We already know that copper and aluminium dont mix. Maybe copper doesnt play well with silver either.
It's pressure combined with a malable metal in the thermal compound. It's not a reaction between the copper block and the silver in the thermal compound.
CrystalMethod
11-01-01, 07:15 PM
Ummmm.... just going to throw in my $0.02 here...
ASII is in paste form because it's got a medium to keep it that way when it's in the syringe. A mineral spirit of some sort or another. When you take it out of it's sealed environment, apply heat, the medium will eventually evaporate, leaving whatever was in it behind. In this case, the silver compound. Add some heat, some pressure, and you got silver foil.
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