Klingon style 2 pump WC loop setup, need help!

I saw this episode of star trek once that said that klingons have two hearts, which is why I call my new 2 pump watercooling loop "klingon style" =P


Aaaanyways, I need help with pump placement, this is how I currently have it set-up:

Pump 1 --> CPU(whitewater block) --> Pump 2 --> Rad/Heatercore --> Reservoir -->pump 1

I believe that this loop setup will give the highest pressure to my waterblock (whitewater), wich is the single most restrictive part in my entire system. Whitewaters are rated to work the best at highest pressure...

this is how I see it:

Pump 1 (PUSHES on to) --> Whitewater --> Pump 2 (PULLS FROM).


The only problem I see is that pump 2's intake will be highly restricted and this might cause the life of the pump to decrease, am I right about this?


Can anyone give me any hints or clues on my pump placement, assuming that the configuration I have isn't the best? What have you guys seen other people do?

Use whatever gives you the shortest amount of tubing. Don't worry about pump 2, as long as pump 1 is fed directly from the res.

Are pumps better at pushing water than at pulling it?

Should I have both pumps pushing on eachother (and then on the waterblock) instead of one pushing one pulling? (example: pump 1 --> pump2 --> waterblock)

I've got both pumps situated just before my rad. When I had them setup in a test loop with just a rad, no fans, I was amazed at how much they warmed my coolant. As it is now, with a fair amount of tube, my CPU (the first FRU after my rad) idles at 1c above ambient and 4c above at full load.

You'd probably be better off going res->pump1->pump2 but the pumps ability to "pull" isn't what causes this. The only reasaon to do pump1->pump2 is because you use a res. That's it.

In a loop with a T, even if you have pump->block->block->pump, it won't make any diffference to pump 2

pwnt by pat said:

You'd probably be better off going res->pump1->pump2 but the pumps ability to "pull" isn't what causes this. The only reasaon to do pump1->pump2 is because you use a res. That's it.

In a loop with a T, even if you have pump->block->block->pump, it won't make any diffference to pump 2

Click to expand...

I still don't understand completely, why do you recommend res->Pump1->pump2 over pump1->cpu->pump2 ????

Why JUST because I have a res? What will this configuration change over the one I suggested? What are the advantages? Please elaborate.....






By the way, if your way is the best way to go, I would assume that this would be the best situation res->pump1->pump2->CPU->res, let me know if this is correct.

because basic laws of science or nature

maximize your DT

thorilan said:

because basic laws of science or nature

maximize your DT

Click to expand...

Well this certainly clears things up.

its simple what do oyu have to do to maximize your DT?

if you can explaine that ( which anyone who has been here a while can if they have been paying attention) then you have the answere.

been building cooing systems for a while now so think i have a little knowledge

thorilan said:

its simple what do oyu have to do to maximize your DT?

if you can explaine that ( which anyone who has been here a while can if they have been paying attention) then you have the answere.

been building cooing systems for a while now so think i have a little knowledge

Click to expand...

Too bad you have enough of an elitist attitude to not explain things clearly... or at least post links to where information can be read =/ And I'm not saying this to tick you off, I'm just pointing out that these forums are here for teaching as well as learning.

thorilan said:

been building cooing systems for a while now so think i have a little knowledge

Click to expand...

I'm sure you do, Thorilan. But knowing you know doesn't help us much. I've never had a system with a res, and hence I've never had a chance to test any of the many theories about res and pump placement I've read on this forum. Some of them are obvious nonsense. For instance, one member claimed that with proper res configuration and placement, more water flowed into the pump than out. Amazingly enough, that one went unchallenged in the thread. But some of these ideas may have merit. As you say, you've built quite a few WC systems, and you've probably tried more configurations than most of us and can speak from actual expereince.

I'm waiting for soeme responses from some seasoned veterans of watercooling to answer a few of my questions.

The question I want answered the most is:
What is stronger in pumps, the pushing side, or the pulling side....

I'm guessing pushing side, but not sure =./

Centrifugal pumps push better than they pull. They do provide some suction, but if the pressure at the inlet drops too low, a centrifugal pump will cavitate (turn the water to vapor). Because centrifugal pumps are useless for pumping gasses, this is bad.

That said, I'm not sure that in a closed system it matters all that much. The pressure at the inlet of the pump will depend on the flow rate, which should be about the same no matter what the order of the components, except perhaps if you put a shallow, air-filled res immediately after the pump. As I said earlier, though, I have no experience with reservoirs.

ok since you are un willing to learn for yourself the most important concept in cooling ( DT) i will quote a post i did a long time ago:

you want to cool your most important part the most correct?
that would be the CPU
so since the CPU is the most important part to cool it should recieve the coolest fluid correct?
well when is the fluid in the cooling loop the coldest? that would be right after the radiator correct?

well why is that so important. . to maximize your your DeltaT or dT for short in this post

well what is the delta t you may ask. let me illistrate

say you have a hot frying pan of a stove and your job is to cool it as cool as you can get it .

so you want to pour water on it right?
well do you think pouring hot water on it will cool it as much as pouring ice water? of coarse not .
so you use the coldest water passsible which is ice water.
basically this describes a range.
say the pan is VERY hot and the ice water is very cold so the difference between the 2 is very high ( literally more than 100c ) this is what you call maximizing your dT . you make the seperation between the hot and cold as wide as possible.

this is also why so many noobies get yelled at for preaching " water going slowly picks up more heat"

why is that statement false?
simple
when i pour my ice water onto the hot pan it will quickly become hot water right? so the dT i described earlyer is not so wide any more after pouring ,correct?
so what do you do?
simple
you pour more ice water in because it cools better than boiling water doesnt it?

this also leads to the answer about flow and KEEPING your DT AS WIDE AS POSSIBLE


basicaly the faster your pour the ice water onto the pan the cooler it will stay because ice is very cold and pan is very hot correct?

thats why people many times use the phrase flow>all

if the water just sits there it heats up and eventualy will not cool the pan at all.

now how this applies to cooling computers

you want your water block on your CPU to recieve the coldest possible water . that means putting it right after the rad because if you put anything in between it like say a NB or VGA block you are adding heat to the cool water before it hits your most important part so you are lowering your dT or reducing the distance between the 2 ( cpu temp and coollant temp)

so here is the kicker

your radiator works the exact same way your water block works only in reverse

so you want the hottest possible coolant from the system to hit the radiator last where the radiator is coolest. BING there is the secret or rather the basics of water cooling for building a system based on good solid principles and understanding

ok so now that you see how the DT works applie that to oyur multi pump configuration

to define your configuration you have 2 pumps which is 2 heating elements

you also have your block. well putting them all in a row before hitting your rad will heat the water more than if you have the radiator between them . but since you want your first heating element to recieve the coolest water to start off that means your block is the starting position in the loop

so your block heats the water first ( this should always be like this unless oyu have an extremely unconventional setup) then both pumps should add thier heat to bring the water to its maximum temp before it hits the radiator

as for pushing and pulling of the pump as long as you dont cavitate the intake you are ok. this means its ok to put SIMILAR rated pumps back to back

if you try putting 2 completely different rated pumps together you will burn out 1 or both pumps

thorilan said:

ok so now that you see how the DT works applie that to oyur multi pump configuration

to define your configuration you have 2 pumps which is 2 heating elements

you also have your block. well putting them all in a row before hitting your rad will heat the water more than if you have the radiator between them . but since you want your first heating element to recieve the coolest water to start off that means your block is the starting position in the loop

so your block heats the water first ( this should always be like this unless oyu have an extremely unconventional setup) then both pumps should add thier heat to bring the water to its maximum temp before it hits the radiator

as for pushing and pulling of the pump as long as you dont cavitate the intake you are ok. this means its ok to put SIMILAR rated pumps back to back

if you try putting 2 completely different rated pumps together you will burn out 1 or both pumps

Click to expand...

I thank you for your response, I read both posts.... I would like to point out that I actually tried to look up what you were talking about, but DT was just too short of a search term... typing "dual pumps" or "pump1 pump2" into the search didn't help either, so I thank you for your response.

According to what you said, you say the best dual pump configuration is:

Reservoir -> Pump1 -> Pump2-> Radiator -> CPU -> Reservoir

That way, the CPU recieves the "coldest" water. There's just one thing to think about, my waterblock is the WhiteWater block, which is one of the most restrictive blocks in the market, and that block operates the BEST at the highest pressure, which is why I suggest either of the following:

Reservoir -> Pump1 -> Pump2 -> CPU -> Radiator -> Reservoir
(I think this will give me the most pressure on the CPU nozzle)

or my original plan

Radiator-> Reservoir -> Pump1 -> CPU -> Pump2 -> Radiator
(not as much pressure on the CPU nozzel, but only 1 pump's heat is dumped on the CPU, not two pumps like listed above)

This would increase the flow THE MOST at the VITAL (and most restricted) part of my system where I NEED the MOST flow.

I believe that the pressure increase that I get on my whitewater by using one of my two configurations will cancel out the heat that the pumps add to the water, giving me better temps in the end.


NOW, based on the information that I provided above, what do you think I should do? Which configuration should I use from the three listed in this reply?

Flow will remain the same throughout the entire loop
NET pressure will remain the same throughout the loop

"DT" I think means Delta T, or difference in temperatures. I don't know if you missed this, but I >did< say that I'm using two pumps in series.

Pump1->Pump2->rad->CPU->GPU1->GPU2

With a Storm, also restrictive, I get slightly above ambient (1c) idle, and 3c above during extended load. This would seem to mean that having a rad as the last component before a restrictive block doesn't make a whole lot of difference. That's unless you wouldn't be satisfied with the temps I'm getting and are expecting your operating temps to be lower with your proposed configuration.

Now, knowing this, if you decide to feed your block with water directly from your pumps, you should also know that your temps ARE going to be a bit warmer. I THINK that's what thorilan was trying to tell you.

Wasn't it proved a while ago that component placement didn't matter? I was sure it did but I'll take your experience as a credential.

according to This placement does not really matter that much. UNLESS you have some high heat outputs

this guy's basic theory is that for every ~261W another 1 degree C is added to the loop

he says
"So, do what allows for the simplest tubing runs - tubing length/kinking will have a greater impact on temps."

although of course Thorilan is absolutely correct for maximum cooling. I would think that his explaination would be more useful if you had say a BIX 3 that would cool the water alot more effective

my own opinion is that it really depends on the cooling capacity of your rad. The better it cools the more Thorilan's theory holds true

not that I have anywhere near the expertise of Thorilan... nor would I claim to