Some questions on watercooling

I have read all the stickies that were relavent to the questions I am about to ask (I think) but there are some more questions that I still need answers to.

1. What is the usual maintainance for a watercooling setup (what do you do to make sure its running correctly and safely all year-round - any monthly/annual bleeds/refills required)?

2. Im still confused about the difference between a t-line and a reservoir. Both seem to hold liquid, act as a fillport, and act as a place to bleed the loop (?). The only differences I can see between them are:
Reservoir:
Pros: Holds lots of liquid, easier to use than a t-line (?)
Cons: Expensive, space consuming
T-line:
Pros: Cheap, less space required
Cons: Hard to work with (?), does not hold enough water
Correct me/add to the list if I am wrong.

3. Is there any specific way to set-up a loop in your case (externally or internally)? For example (and only an example, I am not saying this is true), the reservoir always has to be above the case.

4. I watched DangerDen's videos on how to bleed the system. He cuts the tubing at certain spots. If you really do have to bleed, remount all tubing, and remount all blocks and equipment EVERYTIME this is too much work in my opinion. Is this the right way and only way to bleed loops?

5. One of the sticky polls you have up here asks how long you run your loops. What are the pros/cons of running it 24/7/365 vs. only when your pc is on?

6. Correct me if Im wrong but ID refers to the actual inner tube in which liquid will flow through and OD refers to the thickness of the outer shell of the tubing. And greater/thicker (closer to 1") tubing means better performance for both OD and ID.

7. How do you determine the amount of liquid/fluid/what ever you want to call it you put in the loop? Is there a special way to putting it in other than dump it in reservoir or t-line?

8. Is there a special way to run the loop through blocks?Like on 2 barb blocks the left one always has to be inlet or are they interchangable?

If I were to build a loop RIGHT NOW (my watercooling system will be built around mid-year for those who are curious) this is what it would look like:
Rad: '77 Bonneville pre-modded from DD w/shrouded 2x120mm L1A Panaflo fans
Tubing: 1/2" ID, ?? OD
Pump: Laing DDC (Swiftech MCP350)
CPU block: Swifttech Apogee
VGA block: DD Maze4
Reservoir: ?? (Can anyone recommend me a GOOD reservoir thats under $40?)
Liquid: PrimoChill ICE
Anything else I need?
Loop config: Rad -> CPU block -> VGA block -> Res -> Pump -> back to Rad
Anything wrong with that loop config or is there anyway I could have made it better?

Also, whats the best place overall to shop for watercooling goods.

2. Im still confused about the difference between a t-line and a reservoir. Both seem to hold liquid, act as a fillport, and act as a place to bleed the loop (?). The only differences I can see between them are:

Click to expand...

well to be honest with you, the res will help you bleed your system a lot better. The difference is mainly theoretical in my opinion. The more water you have in your loop the longer it takes to raise the temp higher.

Extreme example: if your res was say a bath tub or a pond or even a lake, the temperatures would stay lower (assuming the rad/heat dissipation could keep up) due to the sheer volume. However since no one is going to have a res that big the only real advantage to a res is that it helps the bleed

3. Is there any specific way to set-up a loop in your case (externally or internally)? For example (and only an example, I am not saying this is true), the reservoir always has to be above the case.

Click to expand...

as has been discussed in many different threads the answer to this is yes and no. in theory, you want the coldest temp to hit the processor first so therefore you would have the rad before the processor. In reality the amount of tubing (in length) that you use makes more of a difference then the actual parts placement

4. I watched DangerDen's videos on how to bleed the system. He cuts the tubing at certain spots. If you really do have to bleed, remount all tubing, and remount all blocks and equipment EVERYTIME this is too much work in my opinion. Is this the right way and only way to bleed loops?

Click to expand...

I think he is on crack. I have never bled a loop this way (though I havent had more then 2 myself)

5. One of the sticky polls you have up here asks how long you run your loops. What are the pros/cons of running it 24/7/365 vs. only when your pc is on?

Click to expand...

well to be honest it is quite hard on the pumps to keep turning on and off. So the longevity of the hardware is really the biggest pro/con

8. Is there a special way to run the loop through blocks?Like on 2 barb blocks the left one always has to be inlet or are they interchangable?

Click to expand...

they are interchangable to a degree from what I gather. Ideally you want the water to be going in on the centre of the block and exiting out the top to avoid trapping airbubbles. However with some blocks this is no possible (at least not without some modification)

about your components, the MCP350 is 3/8" ID so you would have a problem with leaks potentially if you went with 1/2" tubing.

also I dont know that you actually need the Primochill. Just my opinion but distilled water with a bit of antifreeze seems to do the job of a lot of memebers here

BWR said:

6. Correct me if Im wrong but ID refers to the actual inner tube in which liquid will flow through and OD refers to the thickness of the outer shell of the tubing. And greater/thicker (closer to 1") tubing means better performance for both OD and ID.

7. How do you determine the amount of liquid/fluid/what ever you want to call it you put in the loop? Is there a special way to putting it in other than dump it in reservoir or t-line?

Loop config: Rad -> CPU block -> VGA block -> Res -> Pump -> back to Rad

Click to expand...

6. Correct. Volume flow rate affects performance. The larger the diameter of tubing, the less your back pressure with a given flow rate, or the higher flow rate you can achieve with a given pump setting.

7. Fill it till it stops taking water. There's just no way to calculate the volume of water necessary because blocks and radiators vary within degrees of freedom.

Loop config: Which ever gives you the lowest amount of tubing. The lower the length of your loop, the lower the backpressure.

If I were to build a loop RIGHT NOW (my watercooling system will be built around mid-year for those who are curious) this is what it would look like:
Rad: '77 Bonneville pre-modded from DD w/shrouded 2x120mm L1A Panaflo fans
Tubing: 1/2" ID, ?? OD
Pump: Laing DDC (Swiftech MCP350)
CPU block: Swifttech Apogee
VGA block: DD Maze4
Reservoir: ?? (Can anyone recommend me a GOOD reservoir thats under $40?)
Liquid: PrimoChill ICE
Anything else I need?
Loop config: Rad -> CPU block -> VGA block -> Res -> Pump -> back to Rad
Anything wrong with that loop config or is there anyway I could have made it better?

Click to expand...

perfectly fine setup and routing you are proposing. as for res.. it depends on if you want it to be cheep and functional or cool looking . personally i would go with functional . i recommend a T line if you have patience and common sense and a little time to spend though .

about your components, the MCP350 is 3/8" ID so you would have a problem with leaks potentially if you went with 1/2" tubing.

Click to expand...

Frozen CPU has it listed under 1/2" ID. Mistake on their part or can it bought for both?

also I dont know that you actually need the Primochill. Just my opinion but distilled water with a bit of antifreeze seems to do the job of a lot of memebers here

Click to expand...

I decided on the Primochill because it isnt as conductive as water. Since this would be my first watercooling setup, I dont really have the balls or confidence on my ability to prevent leaks. I could do a 24-48 hour leak test but that still doesnt guarantee anything (or does it?).

The Swifttech MCRES-MICRO reservoir is cheap but does it perform well? Anyone want to recommend anything better?

Thanks for all your input. I would like as much as I can get before I make the switch from air to water.

if this this is the link you are refering to
it says the pump is native 3/8"

even the new revision is slated to be 3/8". Unless they have one that I dont know about (which is 100% possible) its most likely a typoo

as for the res. The best ones have a divider between the input and outlet of the water in order to handle the bubbles better though I'm not sure how much of a difference this really makes. Maybe Thorilan has some suggestions

just a little off topic, but...

this is the BEST "i have a question about watercooling" thread i have ever seen. Good questions, no flames, good responses.

[heart]OCForums[/heart]

I have read all the stickies

Click to expand...

It started out right.

So far:
2-6 answered, 7 partly answered, 8 answered, and some misc questions/extra info given.

About question number 1, I am assuming most to all watercooling loops require a few things:
Check ups on water level - sloshing sounds will occur if water level is too low
Refill res or t-line when water level is too low
Bleed when the loop needs to be dismantled - for example, when upgrades are done
Is there anything I forgot or misunderstood?

Question 7 was partly answered. Captain Helghas was nice enough to answer the first part but the other part was left untouched...
Is there a special way to fill your loop?
While watching the DD videos the guy slowly adds coolant into the t-line. I cant really see why you would do it but there were some funky things happening when he poured in coolant.

Are there any places other than Frozencpu, Performance PCs, and Dangerden that I need to know of to get watercooling parts?

Again, thanks all for answering my questions.

If you use a good additive to prevent corroson, such as 10-15% antifreeze and some sort of biocide, like a few drops of iodine, then maintainance is minimal. Like you said, just check water level in the reservoir/T-line periodically and occasionally inspect to make sure you are free of air bubbles in the tubing. Some folks like to drain the system once a year and add fresh coolant. I ran my first system over 2 years without problem.

Initially, you need to be extra careful about leak testing and bleeding the system, but once that's done, you are home free. I have a reservoir and those are easy to refill. Just add some coolant to top it off. A T-line requires you to be a bit more careful since they don't hold much fluid, but it's the same idea. As you bleed the system and air bubbles enter the reservoir/T-line, the coolant level will drop a bit (well, a lot right at first). Just turn off the pump and add some coolant. Repeat.

BWR said:

Im still confused about the difference between a t-line and a reservoir. Both seem to hold liquid, act as a fillport, and act as a place to bleed the loop

Click to expand...

Once your loop is complete, filled and bled...there IS no functional difference between the two.
The problem with the t-line (and certain poorly designed reservoirs, too) is that you are pouring water into the same port that trapped air must escape from.
The air will win.
Also, the trapped air is just as happy to circulate right past the t fitting rather than make the 90 degree turn up the fill line.
Bleeding (especially towards the end when the bubbles are much smaller) will take far longer with a t-line than a good res.

I see no reason for making a new thread for such a small question so Ill just bump this one.

I was trying to see if Mcmaster tygon tubing (they sell everything!) was a better deal than buying it at a e-tailer store like Frozencpu or PerformancePC. What I saw was that their tygon (R3603) tubing had low psi ratings for 'affordable' prices. I know that Laing D5 pumps and such have maximum psi ratings ~ 50 but, in watercooling loops, does it ever get that high? How much pressure should I expect at most?

EDIT: Found out you do save money using mcmaster (if you shop with FrozenCPU).

FrozenCPU price compared with Mcmaster:
You lose $1.07 on 3/8" ID tubing (1/2" OD) (Mcmaster is cheaper with a price of $1.93 a ft)
You lose $1.15 on 1/2" ID tubing (5/8" OD) (Mcmaster is cheaper with a price of $2.10 a ft)

PerformancePC price compared with Mcmaster:
You gain $0.48 on 3/8" ID tubing (5/8" OD) (PerformancePC is cheaper with a price of $2.49 a ft)
You gain $1.11 on 1/2" ID tubing (3/4" OD) (PerformancePC is cheaper with a price of $2.89 a ft)

Bump.

No one knows?

I did some educated guessing and this is what I come up with:
Since almost all PC enthusiast e-tailors sell the same tygon formulation r3606 I can assume it will not affect the psi calculation. The smallest (thinnest) wall thickness I have seen would be 1/16" (3/8" ID, 1/2" OD; 1/2" ID, 5/8" OD). The lowest psi rating I have seen, as reported by Mcmaster, would be from a 1/2" ID, 5/8" OD, and a 1/16" wall thickness. That would equate to about 10 psi or pound per square inch (pressure). Using that as a base, a loop would never excede 10 psi or you would see people complain about stress marks on tygon PVC (maybe explode?). What I dont understand now is why pumps have such high psi ratings when the tubing cant withstand that pressure in the first place?

Anyone want to confirm my guess?

Oh no, I just answered my own question and followed up with another question...

BWR said:

I know that Laing D5 pumps and such have maximum psi ratings ~ 50 but, in watercooling loops, does it ever get that high? How much pressure should I expect at most?

Click to expand...

No, it doesn't get that high. 50psi would be how much pressure the pump can take before it bursts. At 12V, the maximum pressure produced by a D5/MCP655 is under 5psi. Hence, it's not a serious consideration when selecting tubing. What you need to worry about is whether or not the walls are thick enough to avoid kinking and to keep the tubes from collapsing due to the low pressure near the inlet of the pump. 7/16 ID 5/8 OD or 1/2 ID 3/4 OD will both work well. 1/2 ID 5/8 OD will kink very easily.

most rads burst at 48psi acording to one manufacturer i talked to on the phone . he says the seams and welds for cores just arnt designed to go higher but a home computer will never reach that high

thorilan said:

most rads burst at 48psi acording to one manufacturer i talked to on the phone . he says the seams and welds for cores just arnt designed to go higher

Click to expand...

That makes sense. 48psi is plenty of overkill for a system that usually runs at about 4psi and has a 15psi relief valve.

BWR said:

I have read all the stickies that were relavent to the questions I am about to ask (I think) but there are some more questions that I still need answers to.

1. What is the usual maintainance for a watercooling setup (what do you do to make sure its running correctly and safely all year-round - any monthly/annual bleeds/refills required)?

Click to expand...

Once you set it up and bleed out the air, the only maintenance required is an occasional top-off, and filling/flushing. If you add 10/90 antifreeze/distilled water with some algaecide and/or a few drops of alcohol-free iodine solution, you can be sure nothing will grow. Some people go as long as a year before flushing/refilling. I personally flush mine about every 4 months or so just to be on the safe side, but that is just me. At this interval using a res I don't have to add fluid between flushings. I just flushed/refilled 2 computers I watercooled for a friend of mine after 10 months with the above mixture and the fluid was fine. This is provided you are using tubing like tygon r3603/masterkleer/clearflex, and not silicone tubing as silicone tubing loses water through evaporation like crazy.

2. Im still confused about the difference between a t-line and a reservoir. Both seem to hold liquid, act as a fillport, and act as a place to bleed the loop (?). The only differences I can see between them are:
Reservoir:
Pros: Holds lots of liquid, easier to use than a t-line (?)
Cons: Expensive, space consuming
T-line:
Pros: Cheap, less space required
Cons: Hard to work with (?), does not hold enough water
Correct me/add to the list if I am wrong.

Click to expand...

This is a hotly debated topic among some. I have used both and personally I prefer a res. A t-line's main advantage is that it takes up little space. If used with a top case fillport or fillport res, it can be easy to fill. A res bleeds out air much faster and holds more liquid hence can require less frequent topping off, and can be easier to fill. A clear res that you can see from the front of your computer also makes it easy to keep an eye on the water level which if your computer is in an enclosed desk like mine beats having to pull out the computer and look inside at a t-line to check the waterlevel.

I make my own, but Danger Den sells a bayres that uses 3/8" acrylic on the sides that looks very sturdy and well made.

3. Is there any specific way to set-up a loop in your case (externally or internally)? For example (and only an example, I am not saying this is true), the reservoir always has to be above the case.

Click to expand...

No. Generally speaking, if a t-line is at the highest point in the loop it is going to work better, but it will work anywhere you put it, although it should be placed before the pump inlet so as not to run the pump dry when filling. A res will work wherever you put it. As far as tubing routing, the optimal idea is res-pump-rad-cpu-gpu-res, however, there is normally only about a .5c difference in water temps across a loop, so it is best to use the simplest most efficient tubing routing between components.

4. I watched DangerDen's videos on how to bleed the system. He cuts the tubing at certain spots. If you really do have to bleed, remount all tubing, and remount all blocks and equipment EVERYTIME this is too much work in my opinion. Is this the right way and only way to bleed loops?

Click to expand...

NO! Just set things up, fill so that the pump is primed, cycle the pump on and off, add more water, move case around back and forth, right/left etc. until you have a steady stream of water going into the pump and just keep filling as air works out.

5. One of the sticky polls you have up here asks how long you run your loops. What are the pros/cons of running it 24/7/365 vs. only when your pc is on?

Click to expand...

If you use an AC pump, many people leave them on all of the time so that they don't forget to turn them on with the computer, unless using a power relay that turns on the pump when the computer starts. If using a DC pump, it will turn on and off with the computer. It is not necessary to run a computer 24/7, and naturally the more it runs, the more any moving parts will wear. A common sense approach is to leave it on when you are going to use it constantly or intermittently, but turn it off at night or if it is not going to be used for multiple hours. There is no evidence anywhere that I have seen that says that turning off a computer once or twice a day hurts anything, and it does actually save on wear and tear. However turning it on and off every 20 minutes is not a good idea. My computer personally stays on most of the time because we use it most of the time.

6. Correct me if Im wrong but ID refers to the actual inner tube in which liquid will flow through and OD refers to the thickness of the outer shell of the tubing. And greater/thicker (closer to 1") tubing means better performance for both OD and ID.

Click to expand...

There is a point of diminishing returns where larger ID (inner diameter) tubing yields no performance improvement. In watercooling systems, 1/2"ID is the max point as far as results go. There is no improvement in performance in using 1/2"ID vs. 7/16"ID in most systems. The best recommended tubing currently is 7/16"ID 3/32" walled tubing for performance and bulk/ease of routing. 7/16" goes snugly on 1/2"OD fittings.

I personally use 1/2"ID 1/8" walled 3/4"OD tubing as I don't care about a little more bulk, and it is the easiest to slip on 1/2"OD and 5/8"OD fittings and bends as well as the 7/16"ID 3/32" walled tubing. I use 5/8"OD (1/2"ID) fittings on my res and rad to keep the tubing ID the same as the fittings ID, which is the same thing as using 7/16"ID tubing with 1/2"OD (7/16"ID) fittings. Fittings are listed according to OD, so a 1/2" waterblock has 1/2"OD fittings.

7. How do you determine the amount of liquid/fluid/what ever you want to call it you put in the loop? Is there a special way to putting it in other than dump it in reservoir or t-line?

Click to expand...

Just mix your 10/90 in something and then fill 'er up.

8. Is there a special way to run the loop through blocks?Like on 2 barb blocks the left one always has to be inlet or are they interchangable?

Click to expand...

Yes it does matter. The center barb is always the inlet. That is how the blocks are designed.

If I were to build a loop RIGHT NOW (my watercooling system will be built around mid-year for those who are curious) this is what it would look like:
Rad: '77 Bonneville pre-modded from DD w/shrouded 2x120mm L1A Panaflo fans
Tubing: 1/2" ID, ?? OD
Pump: Laing DDC (Swiftech MCP350)
CPU block: Swifttech Apogee
VGA block: DD Maze4
Reservoir: ?? (Can anyone recommend me a GOOD reservoir thats under $40?)
Liquid: PrimoChill ICE
Anything else I need?
Loop config: Rad -> CPU block -> VGA block -> Res -> Pump -> back to Rad
Anything wrong with that loop config or is there anyway I could have made it better?

Also, whats the best place overall to shop for watercooling goods.

Click to expand...

Loop looks fine. The mcp350 is really the best pump to go with as far as noise/perfomance goes. It does use 3/8"OD connections. What you do to use it with 1/2"ID tubing is to get a short piece of 3/8"ID 1/2"OD tubing, slip a small piece that is enough to cover the barbs, and then slip on the 1/2"ID tubing and just clamp it down. You can use the PrimoChill ICE if it makes you feel better and some claim it saved their bacon in a leak, but I prefer good old .75cents per gallon distilled water with antifreeze and a drop of algaecide and a few drops of alcohol free iodine solution.

Besides what you mentioned, jab-tech, crazypc, dtekcustoms, and sidewindercomputers are a few more good places to look. I hope the above helps.

Some say it takes 24 hours to bleed a T line but for me (as I am just getting started) it only took 12 hours striaght. This loop (length of tubing used) is roughly 6' using a "T" line only (without the res). I am not talking about small bubbles but sections of the loop that had no water in it at all. It was a pain in the beginning as I had to refill a lot. I recommend you buy a refill bottle/syringe from Danger Den or other web site. Trying to fill a small hole in your T line with just a pitcher of coolant is insane in the membrane!

It was comforting to know that the bubbles (once the pump was started) was flowing in the right direction.

Here is some free advice, something I had to learn on my own!!
DO NOT install the Water Block onto your Video Card or CPU until after it bleeds. What does that mean, you say? It means I measured the length it took for my loop to fit properly onto my Video card (which is much easier then the CPU). Then I ran the computer as normal allowing the loop to bleed out, then I installed the VC onto the WB. Mildly difficult with limited space but do-able. However, this is just my opinion.

ECH said:

Here is some free advice, something I had to learn on my own!!
DO NOT install the Water Block onto your Video Card or CPU until after it bleeds. What does that mean, you say? It means I measured the length it took for my loop to fit properly onto my Video card (which is much easier then the CPU). Then I ran the computer as normal allowing the loop to bleed out, then I installed the VC onto the WB. Mildly difficult with limited space but do-able. However, this is just my opinion.

Click to expand...

The only reason that I can see for this is if you are concerned about leaking onto your motherboard/vc when leaktesting. If you put everything together well and use decent clamps, this is not necessary. Not to mention how are you going to "run the computer as normal" with no cooling blocks installed? I personally put everything together, and then just power the pump only overnight to leaktest making sure to wiggle connections around a bit. If there is a leak while leaktesting, then you can just mop it up and fix it with no harm done.

voigts said:

You can use the PrimoChill ICE if it makes you feel better and some claim it saved their bacon in a leak, but I prefer good old .75cents per gallon distilled water with antifreeze and a drop of algaecide and a few drops of alcohol free iodine solution.

Click to expand...

Id rather not use conductive liquids on my first loop. Why start off with the real thing when there are training wheels? I dont mind spending the extra $20, especially when Im not skimpping on the hardware in the first place.