View Full Version : Made my own DDC acrylic top- How & Pics
Well, being the cheapskate and ardent do-it-yourselfer, I decided to give it a try at making my own DDC acrylic top. This is an intended modification that I am going to make to my custom wood case setup (http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=449069&highlight=design+reality).
Instead of doing the flow mod, I wanted to make a top that would allow for a 5/8" inlet and 1/2" outlet (I like to use 5/8" barbs when possible since I am using 1/2" tubing). Also using a top would allow me to return the pump should it ever fail vs. doing the flow mod.
I got 7- 4"x4"x1" cast acrylic blocks off of ebay ($20 total shipped). I wanted to make a top that would model somewhat off of the radiical.com.au top (http://radiical.com.au/products/RadiicalPumpTop.asp), but I don't have the $50 at present to sink into one.
First, I measured the original DDC top for the inside diameter and depth. It has a slight spiral to it. So I drew the thing in Photoshop to use as a template for my top:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/HoleTemplate.jpg
Then I eyeballed where i wanted it to go, traced the outline and centerpoint onto the acrylic, and drilled a 1 1/2" hole into the block with a drill press. This is the largest sized boring bit I can find anywhere.
I then had to ream out for the spiral effect. I used my trusty Dremel imitation Nikota rotary tool to sand out the edge to the line that I had marked.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/IM000049.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/IM000051.jpg
Having looked well at the radiical.com.au pics, I could see that I needed to get my mounting holes drilled before drilling the outlet hole to make sure I didn't drill the outlet hole through a mounting hole. I took the pump and positioned the head where I wanted it so that it has the same clearance of the original top, flipped it over while holding it in place, and partially drilled the four mounting holes just enough to mark them.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/IM000052.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/IM000053.jpg
I then went ahead and used my drill press to drill the 9/16" hole I needed for the inlet, making sure to ream it out a bit to make it easier to tap later.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/IM000055.jpg
Then it was on to drilling the outlet hole. I marked this one to get it as close to the bottom as I felt comforable with and enough away from the mounting hole so as to not drill through it.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/IM000056.jpg
I again needed a 9/16" hole for the threads for the barbs. The only 9/16" drill bit are wood boring bits which have a long pointy tip. I realized that I only needed to drill in with the 9/16" deep enough so that I could tap the hole. I didn't want to go too deep with it however as the tip would penetrate too far into the block. So I first drilled as far as I measured I needed in order to tap out the thread, and finished the hole with a normal 1/2" drill bit, drilling just enough to break into the interior area. 1/2" is as big as normal drill bits usually come. I just reamed out the end a bit with it.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/IM000058.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/IM000057.jpg
Drilling too deep into the block even with the 1/2" would have left a kind of drop off from the pump head drilled out area going out to the outlet. So like I said I just drilled enough to break into the interior pump head area, and from there the Nikota rotary tool was my friend. I copied the look of the original top to make a smooth channel to pass the water from the head to the outlet. This took some shaping and sanding to achieve, but it worked great.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/IM000064.jpg
After more shaping and some sanding and trimming the block to size with a compound mitre saw and flame polishing, here is the final product.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/IM000070.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/IM000068.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/IM000067.jpg
And here it is mounted:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/IM000074.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/IM000073.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/IM000072.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/IM000071.jpg
I haven't flow tested it yet as I just finished it today. This block is the second version. The first one turned out, but just wasn't quite happy with it and so made a few changes to make this second one. I am very satisfied with this second block.
I already have the drill bit, rotary tool, and most bits that I needed. I only had to get a bit and some sanding disks. So all in all it took me a couple of hours to make and cost me about $10 to make.
Maybe this will inspire others out there...
nachosyumm
04-28-06, 01:29 AM
Nice
I really wish a company would consider making a low cost delrin top for the ddc. I think i am going to try to make a top to accomidate two ddc's over the summer, but for now i will stick with my iwaki.
Its great seeing a bunch of homemade stuff. First the copper cap blocks and now this.
Is that the rev 2? Will u be using a single ddc or two of them?
edit: deleted previous post and made this one since the other one interupted voigts' posts.
edit2: do you have any bigger pics of it. The craftsmanship looks great, but the pics are pretty small. Awesome job.
edit3: deleted yet again so that i would no interupt voigts' posts
edit4: :p why do i have so many edits?
Nice
I really wish a company would consider making a low cost delrin top for the ddc. I think i am going to try to make a top to accomidate two ddc's over the summer, but for now i will stick with my iwaki.
Its great seeing a bunch of homemade stuff. First the copper cap blocks and now this.
Is that the rev 2? Will u be using a single ddc or two of them?
edit: deleted previous post and made this one since the other one interupted voigts' posts.
edit2: do you have any bigger pics of it. The craftsmanship looks great, but the pics are pretty small. Awesome job.
thanks. I was smack in the middle of posting this when you wrote. yes, the pump is the 18w. My goal is silence, so I actually ordered what I thought was a 10w but received an 18w instead. I think at this point I am probaby just going to live with a few more decibels over the 10w and keep it. I am only going to be running the one pump as two pumps is just more noise and not much more performance wise. I care more about quiet than performance.
I can post a couple of bigger pics if you want me to.
greenmaji
04-28-06, 01:39 AM
that is some seiously clean work.. good job :D
(I'll move mine too ;) )
Ok nachosyumm, here are a few bigger pics:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/IM000074Large.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/IM000072Large.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/IM000071Large.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/IM000067Large.jpg
Are these better?
nachosyumm
04-28-06, 02:04 AM
yay, much better. Thanks. You always seem to use really small pictures.
It was hard for me to really see the finished piece with 1024 x 768. Do u use a small monitor?
wow, that seemed to work out perfectly. I cant wait until you get some tests done.
yay, much better. Thanks. You always seem to use really small pictures.
It was hard for me to really see the finished piece with 1024 x 768. Do u use a small monitor?
wow, that seemed to work out perfectly. I cant wait until you get some tests done.
No, I use a 19" at 1280x1024. I just try to avoid huge pics for those unfortunate who are stuck with dial-up access.
citronym
04-28-06, 02:46 AM
Great work, you are a creative man.
Very nice handiwork, voigts! :attn:
I really wish a company would consider making a low cost delrin top for the ddc.
Get out of my head. :p I was thinking something similar and e-mailed a request for such to a popular watercooling supply company. They replied with something like: "That [removing the 90 degree inlet] would lower the output pressure while increasing the flow. You would be better off with the [their version of the D5]. :shrug:
clocker2
04-28-06, 05:37 AM
Jeez V, you work fast.
Wasn't it just yesterday morning we were talking about this project?
Should be interesting to see what sort of performance your new design provides.
I assume your next project will be carving a CPU out of oak or something....
Really nice. On the start i didnt know what was the top for, but then i saw the bigger pictures and i saw it was for the pump. :)
R B Customs
04-28-06, 06:30 AM
beautiful piece of work mate
could you go into detail about fexactly how you plished it ? only ill be doing alot of work in acrylic soon :)
thanks for posting
Rick
Very interesting, Voigts, and beautiful work! :beer:
How close do you think your impeller chamber is to the original? I've been thinking about how to make a mold to cast a top with a larger outlet, but I've been a little worried about the tolerances. I don't really know much about pumps, and I don't want to goof in a way that causes something to wear out. :bang head
TreeNode
04-28-06, 08:48 AM
How did you dremel the screw/barb holes? BTW, it looks nice!
Thanks for the positive comments.
Jeez V, you work fast.
Wasn't it just yesterday morning we were talking about this project?
Should be interesting to see what sort of performance your new design provides.
I assume your next project will be carving a CPU out of oak or something....
BTW- the guy you mentioned did have 1 more radiical left, but I already started making this before he emailed me back so I figured I would just plow ahead and make it. I am taking a few days off of work due to a bad knee + pulled groin muscle + sudden change in weather=pain, so I had some time to mess with it.
Now, if I could only find that block of oak I was looking for I would be the envy of both AMD and INTEL. :)
Very interesting, Voigts, and beautiful work! :beer:
How close do you think your impeller chamber is to the original? I've been thinking about how to make a mold to cast a top with a larger outlet, but I've been a little worried about the tolerances. I don't really know much about pumps, and I don't want to goof in a way that causes something to wear out. :bang head
By using a template that I measured from the original chamber, the chamber I made is as close to the same dimensions as is possible. I even made the depth of the chamber the same (almost 5/16"). In visually comparing the two with the pump head, they look the same and measure the same. The only notable difference is of course that mine is not PERFECTLY rounded as I did sand to achieve the spiral effect.
I'm not sure that the tolerances are really that big of a deal. Although I didn't see the radiical block, Clocker2 has one and mentioned that the chamber of it is round, not spiral, which if that is the case, then a little difference shouldn't matter too much.
How exactly would you go about casting a top anyway?
How did you dremel the screw/barb holes? BTW, it looks nice!
The barb holes were drilled with a 9/16" wood boring bit using a drill press, and for the outlet hole, I finished the hole with a normal 1/2" bit and reamed it out a bit to match the 9/16" hole.
beautiful piece of work mate
could you go into detail about fexactly how you plished it ? only ill be doing alot of work in acrylic soon :)
thanks for posting
Rick
Knowing that I was not gluing anything with this block, I could sand with a sander and flame polish. You can't do that if you are gluing to an edge as it will cause it to craze (I have found that if gluing, you can only sand by hand). I simply sanded the edges and insides as smooth as possible with a variable orbit sander and my Nikota rotary tool, and then used a MAPP gas plumbing torch to flame the edges and interior. I have never done this before, but it is really pretty easy. Using a MAPP gas torch works very well as it burns very hot and only takes light touches with the flame to make the surfaces shine. I just used the torch to touch the places I wanted to polish (after sanding) with the flame briefly a few times until it shined to my liking. This slightly melts a bit of the surface and takes out minor imperfections as well.
Now I have got to figure out a good way to flowtest this. Anyone got any ideas?
Flip-Mode
04-28-06, 08:52 AM
WOW, I'm impressed. Nice job.
t4runnr
04-28-06, 09:23 AM
No, I use a 19" at 1280x1024. I just try to avoid huge pics for those unfortunate who are stuck with dial-up access.
Thank you. I usually use my laptop a lot and my max is 1024x768. Photo resizing is everyone's friend.
Thankfully, my Firefox browser is set to reduce oversized photos. But I still have to wait until the page is loaded then refresh it before it resizes.
Awesome work on the cover!!
greenmaji
04-28-06, 09:26 AM
That was your first shot at flame polishing.. Im impressed :D
Cause its realted ill post here,
If somone had access to a machine shop with the proper machinery you could easily machine customs tops for the mcp-350 out of derlin, damn that would look really nice :drool:
Cause its realted ill post here,
If somone had access to a machine shop with the proper machinery you could easily machine customs tops for the mcp-350 out of derlin, damn that would look really nice :drool:
It looks pretty nice, but as a personal preference, I like the clear acrylic look more.
Both pwn the stock look.
Shown here. (http://www.radiical.com.au/products/RadiicalPumpTop.asp)
It looks pretty nice, but as a personal preference, I like the clear acrylic look more.
Both pwn the stock look.
Shown here. (http://www.radiical.com.au/products/RadiicalPumpTop.asp)
Thanks, I didn't even know they made a derlin top one, it looks great.
http://www.radiical.com.au/images/Radiical%20Top%20for%20Laing%20pump/Delrin%20Laing%20Pump%20Top%20Three.jpg
WarriorII
04-28-06, 11:41 AM
Now I have got to figure out a good way to flowtest this. Anyone got any ideas?
Fill one side of the kitchen sink with water and have a bucket near to pump into.
Time how long it takes to fill the bucket (1 gallon) from the sink.
Very nice job. You do good work.
:cool:
damarble
04-28-06, 11:49 AM
Very nice! It looks professional to me.
Thanks, I didn't even know they made a derlin top one, it looks great.
Might not be a great idea to post an img tagged pic from someone else's site.
The very first sticky in this entire forum. (http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=117833)
thegreek
04-28-06, 12:10 PM
Anyone know where you can buy the Radiical Pump Housing
Anyone know where you can buy the Radiical Pump Housing
In the link in my first post- http://radiical.com.au/products/RadiicalPumpTop.asp . I emailed them about the price and when converted its right at $50 US total.
Fill one side of the kitchen sink with water and have a bucket near to pump into.
Time how long it takes to fill the bucket (1 gallon) from the sink.
Very nice job. You do good work.
:cool:
thanks.
I tried to do this exact idea but the only problem is that the water once primed of course naturally flows downhill into the bucket without turning on the pump at all via just gravity. I just bought a cheap bucket and I think that what I am going to do is to screw a barb into the bottom, place it on the countertop with the pump underneath, and then put the receiving bucket next to it on the countertop. That way the pump is doing all of the work, not gravity.
WarriorII
04-28-06, 04:03 PM
You got the idea. :thup:
thegreek
04-28-06, 04:33 PM
In the link in my first post- http://radiical.com.au/products/RadiicalPumpTop.asp . I emailed them about the price and when converted its right at $50 US total.
I don't see a place to order on their site :shrug: Do you have to order by phone?
By using a template that I measured from the original chamber, the chamber I made is as close to the same dimensions as is possible. I even made the depth of the chamber the same (almost 5/16"). In visually comparing the two with the pump head, they look the same and measure the same. The only notable difference is of course that mine is not PERFECTLY rounded as I did sand to achieve the spiral effect.
I'm not sure that the tolerances are really that big of a deal. Although I didn't see the radiical block, Clocker2 has one and mentioned that the chamber of it is round, not spiral, which if that is the case, then a little difference shouldn't matter too much.
I've read the spiral is important for getting good head out of a pump, which is of course the DDC's strongpoint, so it's good you took the time to do that. Any idea how long Clocker2's top has been in service and if he runs the pump 24/7?
How exactly would you go about casting a top anyway?
I'm still working on that. I've never cast plastic before, so I need to get around the learning curve. I'll probably make some bits for my case and new tanks for my rad first, as the molds for these will be simpler. It looks like I'll be able to make a flexible mold out of silicone and pour epoxy or urethane plastic into it. So far, I haven't found a strong, clear casting compound that isn't outrageously toxic to work with, so I might settle for a lower bling factor. When searching for info on casting plastics, my results are frequently topped by medical pages on the treatment of idiots who didn't take the proper precautions and poisoned themselves. And some of the casting resin data sheets actually say something along the lines of "don't try this at home".
nachosyumm
04-28-06, 07:02 PM
I was thinking about maybe using plaster of paris(old school molds!!) to create an exact replica of the internal chamber. Then i will pour wax over the exact replica of the internal chamber and create the final mold which will then be covered in plastic of paris for a whole mold. Im going to try to build something that can heat larger amounts of metals up this summer. That would be awesome to have a copper top. If a mold is used then the tops could be produced for a fairly low cost. I have plans for a metal melter thing, but dont know if my parents will let me buld it. I have the ability now to melt small amounts of copper and other metals with similar melting points, but it is only a very small amount since my setup isnt very big.
the metal melter thing was originally built to melt salt so that i could extract sodium, but i later dicovered it had the abilitly to get hot enough to melt copper when i added a oxygen to the gas (original used oxygen from air).
I was thinking about maybe using plaster of paris(old school molds!!) to create an exact replica of the internal chamber. Then i will pour wax over the exact replica of the internal chamber and create the final mold which will then be covered in plastic of paris for a whole mold. Im going to try to build something that can heat metals up this summer. That would be awesome to have a copper top. If a mold is used then the tops could be produced for a fairly low cost. I have plans for a metal melter thing, but dont know if my parents will let me buld it. I have the ability now to melt small amounts of copper and other metals with similar melting points, but it is only a very small amount since my setup isnt very big.
the metal melter thing was originally built to melt salt so that i could extract sodium, but i later dicovered it had the abilitly to get hot enough to melt copper when i added a oxgen line to the gas (original used oxygen from air).
I see a problem with reusable molds and the shape of the impeller chamber and outlet. You could make this with a lost wax casting, but how are you going to get a reusable the mold out of there without breaking it? Making a new mold each time will up the cost of mass producing these things, though if you're just making one for yourself, that's not much of an issue. Alternatively, I suppose you could cast the outlet and impeller chamber separately and braze them together. If you get a round tuit for this project, be sure to start a thread for it. I'd love to see that copper (alloy, pure copper is a botch to cast) top.
Well, I did some flow testing. I took a bucket and drilled hole and mounted a barb near the bottom. I put it on top of the kitchen sink counter. I put the pump in the sink, ran a hose from the bucket to the intake of the pump, and ran a hose up out of the sink into another bucket. I measured 2 gallons in the receiving bucket.
I tried it several times, and the pump with my top filled 2 gallons three times in 51 seconds. With the original top back on, it took 1 minute 30 seconds to fill the 2 gallon bucket (did twice). So as you can see, there is a HUGE difference in flow.
I have run into a problem however. For some reason with my top on, the pump impellor wants to hang and not spin up. It acts like it is rubbing against the inside of the top. I reamed it out a bit, and double checked as much as possible and cannot see anywhere where it could be rubbing. I think what is happening is that for some reason the way my top chamber is designed that the impellor is not centering itself correctly and hence is running crooked instead of straight and so it is rubbing against the top inside. Or in other words, the pump impellor is not spinning parallel to the the top of the chamber but crooked instead so as to rub against the top.
I really am quite puzzled as to the cause of this. I went ahead and ordered a radiical.com.au acrylic top. When I get it in, I want to compare it to try to see what the deal is and what difference there is. Something has to be causing this.
I don't see a place to order on their site :shrug: Do you have to order by phone?
You have to click on the "secure orders tab" on the top left menu and then use the scroll box the select the "turbo head" top you want, either the Delrin or Acrylic.
Or in other words, the pump impellor is not spinning parallel to the the top of the chamber but crooked instead so as to rub against the top.
I really am quite puzzled as to the cause of this. I went ahead and ordered a radiical.com.au acrylic top. When I get it in, I want to compare it to try to see what the deal is and what difference there is. Something has to be causing this.
:bang head :bang head :bang head
This is exactly the kind of thing I was worried about with casting my own modified top. Subtle little hydrodynamic stuff that affects the moving parts. :bang head If you figure it out, though, please post! I'm very interested in this puzzle. :)
It's a moot point for the moment, but if you get back to testing, you might include some restriction in your loop so that we can guesstimate the new PQ curve.
nachosyumm
04-28-06, 08:31 PM
i was hoping that wouldnt happen to you. Hydrodynamics are way out of my leageu. That i swhy i want to make an exact copy. of the interior.
I've been sitting here studying the original top and my top. There is one difference between the two that I didn't think would matter, but apparently it does. The difference is that I have water going out through a hole that uses some of the interior curve of the chamber over the pump head. The original top has all of the water going out of the side and only a smooth surface over the area of the pump head. By not having an even surface over the entire chamber over the pump head, this is causing the pump head to turn at an angle and rub the top interior. It must be the smooth, consistent surface totally over the pump head in order for even force to keep the pump head running parallel to the top.
I have ideas of how to mirror exactly the original design and still incorporate the 1/2" outlet. If I have time tomorrow, I am going to give this another crack.
Hey, I've got a theory for you to test, Voigts. Does the impeller lean toward where the outlet joins the impeller chamber? If so, perhaps the opening from the chamber to the outlet, is too wide. It could be that in the original design, the water and walls help center the impeller, and in yours, the outlet side is too "soft". If it leans a different way every time, then maybe your whole chamber is too big, or perhaps a bit too deep.
Edit: LOL, you're ahead me. :) Good luck.
Hey, I've got a theory for you to test, Voigts. Does the impeller lean toward where the outlet joins the impeller chamber? If so, perhaps the opening from the chamber to the outlet, is too wide. It could be that in the original design, the water and walls help center the impeller, and in yours, the outlet side is too "soft". If it leans a different way every time, then maybe your whole chamber is too big, or perhaps a bit too deep.
Edit: LOL, you're ahead me. :) Good luck.
It leans towards the outlet which is what is telling me that is the problem.
Here are a couple of pics to explain what I am thinking is my problem.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/problemPic2.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/problemPic1.jpg
clocker2
04-28-06, 09:45 PM
Any idea how long Clocker2's top has been in service and if he runs the pump 24/7?
My pump has not run at all as yet...either in stock form or with the Radical head.
I was waiting on my replacement Stasis Thermal Neptune block to arrive before I made the switch from 1/2" to 3/8" (D5 to MCP rev.2).
Should happen this weekend.
It leans towards the outlet which is what is telling me that is the problem.
Here are a couple of pics to explain what I am thinking is my problem.
Yeah, I see what you mean.
It's hard to tell in that pic, but it looks like you've got a channel leading almost all the way from the inlet to the outlet. Robotech reported slightly lower head after the mod and speculated it might be from increased leakage. This makes sense because with his mod you remove that little lip that extends down into (or almost into) the eye of the impeller, and that allows a wider path from the outlet side back to the inlet. It seems to me yours might have even more of this problem as it is now.
I noticed that the real pump top has the exit on the outside of the ring, and yours... isnt. Maybe that is the problem
Yeah, I see what you mean.
It's hard to tell in that pic, but it looks like you've got a channel leading almost all the way from the inlet to the outlet. Robotech reported slightly lower head after the mod and speculated it might be from increased leakage. This makes sense because with his mod you remove that little lip that extends down into (or almost into) the eye of the impeller, and that allows a wider path from the outlet side back to the inlet. It seems to me yours might have even more of this problem as it is now.
If I remember right, it was only a .2psi difference before and after which makes the mod well worth it. I hadn't thought of this issue but you are right. The way it currently is would be a problem. So many problems, so little time...
Maybe I'll get back to the drilling/sanding board tomorrow and see what I can do.
I noticed that the real pump top has the exit on the outside of the ring, and yours... isnt. Maybe that is the problem
Oh yeah, it's not really tangential is it. I didn't notice that before. That might not be the source of the problem with the impeller, but I think it will be a problem for performance.
Voigts, are you going to start over or try to fix what you've got? Maybe you can fill in with epoxy or epoxy putty for a temporary fix, and then make a new top once you figure out how to do it right.
Oh yeah, it's not really tangential is it. I didn't notice that before. That might not be the source of the problem with the impeller, but I think it will be a problem for performance.
Voigts, are you going to start over or try to fix what you've got? Maybe you can fill in with epoxy or epoxy putty for a temporary fix, and then make a new top once you figure out how to do it right.
I'm going to start over as I have some ideas as to how to remedy this. It doesn't really take much time to make a block. The longest part is really just cutting the threads.
Well, I went at it again for a few hours this morning working on revision 3. The person I was going to buy a radiical from fell through, so I am more motivated to try again, not to mention the fact that I don't like to not make something work. Clocker2 helped me here in that he has a radiical block and let me know that the outlet path on it is 1/4", which is the size of the original top, and the outlet does not intrude into the pump head recess area. With this info in mind, I set out this time to copy the top as exactly as possible making sure the outlet goes from the side and does not intrude on the chamber area as with the first two attempts.
This time instead of just measuring the top area I actually took a piece of paper and exaclty traced the top to make a template. After drilling my 1 1/2" diameter hole, reaming out the spiral, and drilling the mounting holes, I copied the 1/4" outlet path that the original top has.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/DDCtop/IM000004.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/DDCtop/IM000006.jpg
I then pulled out my trusty Nokita rotary tool and reamed out the side channel just like the original top.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/DDCtop/IM000008.jpg
In order to drill the hole for the outlet barb, I had to drill it very close to the edge because of how the 1/4" outlet path comes out close to the edge. So close that trying to tap threads was not going to work. I decided to just go ahead and epoxy the barb into the outlet hole. I kind of wish I would have thought of that first as I would have made the outlet hole smaller, but it should still work. I also reamed out where the 1/4" outlet path meets the barb area so that there is an even transition. This also put this VERY close to the mounting hole on that side.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/DDCtop/IM000012.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/DDCtop/IM000010.jpg
Ok, final pics. The epoxy has to cure so its got to sit until tomorrow afternoon. I used the rotary tool to sand off the threads from the barbs in order to get them into the holes.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/DDCtop/IM000013.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/DDCtop/IM000017.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/DDCtop/IM000015.jpg
The edge was so thin that when flame polishing it recessed a bit, but with epoxying the barb, it won't matter.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/DDCtop/IM000016.jpg
I guess I'll see tomorrow night how this does. Being that it is as close to the original top as I can get, I think this will be a go.
That looks a lot closer. Hope it works.
Well, being a perfectionist is a pain at times. Although I think revision 3 will work fine, I still wasn't quite happy with the way the outlet looked. So I went back tonight and made a revision 4. This time I think it came out about as close to perfect as I am going to get. Epoxying the barbs really helped the whole process as it made for a much easier outlet hole design since I only need a 1/2" hole to epoxy into and the edge can be thin, whereas if tapping out, the edge can't be thin and it takes a 9/16" hole. I just had to drill a 1/2" hole for the outlet and then drill within that hole a 1/4" hole for the outlet path. It also made it a lot easier to put a little space between the outlet path and the mounting hole. Anyway, here are the pics. I look forward tomorrow night at firing this up once the epoxy cures.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/DDCtop/revision4/IM000007.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/DDCtop/revision4/IM000009.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/DDCtop/revision4/IM000010.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/DDCtop/revision4/IM000008.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/DDCtop/revision4/IM000011.jpg
starting to look like perfection
clocker2
04-30-06, 10:54 AM
Just in case your "inner perfectionist" (or "inner masochist", as the case may be)
decides to try for rev.#5, here is a shot that shows how Radiical got around the output barb threading problem*...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/radiical1.jpg
As you can (kinda) see, the barb is centered in the sidewall and the small channel angles down to the impellor cavity.
It does appear possible to drill this hole, given a bit of sufficient length, but I still think these are actually cast with only finish machining done to clean up the channels and edges.
*Sorry it took so long to post up this pic.
I watched helplessly from work as you produced not just one but two new revisions before I got home and then I thought you were done...but nooooo, had to go and make yet another, didn't you?
Now I suppose you'll be forced to start yet again....
I am sure that they cast the pieces. That would be the only efficient way to make them for sale and get them accurate. I wish I would have had some detailed pics of the radiical top before I started. It would have saved me a lot of work. I thought of doing the exact same thing with angling the outlet path, but then you run into the problem of how to have the outlet enter the chamber properly when drilling. It could be done if I drilled almost into the chamber area at the angle and then using a rotary tool from there, but it is easier to drill out a non-angled path like the original top instead. The angled path is not something that i am going to go back and make another to change. Epoxying the barbs in works just fine for me.
I just hope that when I can test my top tonight, it performs correctly.
nachosyumm
04-30-06, 01:23 PM
i dont think they cast them. Usually when stuff is cast it is much cheaper than a machined part. If they are casted, they must make a lot of profit on those tops.
I call revision 3!!! j/k
rev 4 looks really good. hopefully it works.
i dont think they cast them. Usually when stuff is cast it is much cheaper than a machined part. If they are casted, they must make a lot of profit on those tops.
I call revision 3!!! j/k
rev 4 looks really good. hopefully it works.
I will probably test both 3 & 4 later tonight or in the morning. I am willing to part with number 3 IF it tests out OK. IF I do, I'll let you know. ;)
Well, I did some flow testing. Mind you this is not exactly a scientific test procedure on my part, but what I am after is the difference using the top.
Rev4 works perfectly. This is the final revision that I got VERY close to the original top spec.
The rev3 top also works fine with one minor issue. When I cut it, I was a little off on the impeller chamber depth by almost 1/16" giving almost 1/8" clearance between the impeller and the top, whereas the original top only has 1/16" clearance (as does my rev4). This makes the impeller run a little out of parallel with the top and hence just a little louder with a little more vibration. That 1/16" clearance is obviously crucial to maintain the best pressure and hence alignment of the impellor.
Here is a pic of what I did to flow test:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCase/flowTesting.jpg
One bucket has a barb screwed into it going into the inlet of the pump in the sink going out to another bucket back on the countertop. I measured 2 gallons in the receiving bucket and marked it with a line. I then filled up the barbed bucket, and ran my stopwatch timing how long to fill 2 gallons.
As I mentioned above, with the stock top, it took 90 seconds which calculates into 80GPH/303LPH.
With either my rev3 or rev4 top, it took 51 seconds which calculates into 141GPH/534LPH.
This comes out to a 76% improvement in flow over the standard top. Like I said, this is not scientific, but it bears out that there is a very significant improvement over the standard top. I wish I had a way to test the pump PSI, but I am figuring based on Robotech's results doing the flow mod at systemcooling.com that there isn't much of a difference.
Yeah--- it works and lives! :clap:
And not too bad on cost. I spent $20 on 7 acrylic pieces (still have 3 left), and about $5 on barbs. This took a good bit of time (about 3 hours per block), but it was fun and a learning experience. At least this way if the pump were to die, I could RMA it as I didn't have to hack up the original top.
Now I just have to take the time this coming weekend and put it in.
WarriorII
05-01-06, 12:31 AM
Very nice.
Glad to hear you got things worked out finally.
1/8" off.... I was gonna say, could you "shim" it somehow? :shrug:
:attn:
Very nice.
Glad to hear you got things worked out finally.
1/8" off.... I was gonna say, could you "shim" it somehow? :shrug:
:attn:
Thanks.
I don't see shimming the rev3 block possible. The rev4 block isn't off at all however so that is what I am planning on using.
Great work, Voigts. :clap:
I wish I had a way to test the pump PSI, but I am figuring based on Robotech's results doing the flow mod at systemcooling.com that there isn't much of a difference.
To test the available head, you could run a long tube up the side of your house and see how high the pump can push water. That won't give you a PQ curve, but with the free flow test and Robotech's data, it would be enough to make some good guesses.
i dont think they cast them. Usually when stuff is cast it is much cheaper than a machined part. If they are casted, they must make a lot of profit on those tops.
I'd be surprised if they weren't cast, but the market for DDC tops probably isn't very large. And when you only sell a few of something, each piece has to cover more of the design and tooling costs. Add the cost of finishing something that's clear, and hence shows the slightest flaw, a higher failure rate for the same reason, and everything you need to cope with the toxic fumes clear plastics put out while they cure, and it's not surprising those tops aren't cheap.
clocker2
05-01-06, 06:28 AM
This comes out to a 76% improvement in flow over the standard top.
That's an enormous increase in flow for such a simple modification (not everybody makes an entirely new top...the center inlet can be added to the stock cover relatively easily).
Makes me wonder why Laing doesn't offer a stock version configured this way.
That's an enormous increase in flow for such a simple modification (not everybody makes an entirely new top...the center inlet can be added to the stock cover relatively easily).
Makes me wonder why Laing doesn't offer a stock version configured this way.
I would like to see you do a before/after original/radiical flow comparison with your pump before you install it to compare results.
I would think the reason that Laing doesn't is that the PC watercooling industy represents such a small part of their sales that it is not worth casting a top just for us. They don't make this pump for our use, we just use it because it works well. It would be nice if they would however.
clocker2
05-01-06, 08:34 AM
I would like to see you do a before/after original/radiical flow comparison with your pump before you install it to compare results.
Would you now.
We'll see.
Were I not so pressed for time I'd be happy to reinstall the stock top but I suspect that the results would (should?) be pretty similar to yours.
I have quite a bit of fabrication/installation to get done today or Sprocket will be down till next Sunday (at the earliest).
Assuming I can get the modding done and the adhesive dries, I'll try to do a Radiical topped flow test before I install the pump/rez combo.
Sorry, but that will have to do.
I have grand plans, but limited time to execute them.
Would you now.
We'll see.
Were I not so pressed for time I'd be happy to reinstall the stock top but I suspect that the results would (should?) be pretty similar to yours.
I have quite a bit of fabrication/installation to get done today or Sprocket will be down till next Sunday (at the earliest).
Assuming I can get the modding done and the adhesive dries, I'll try to do a Radiical topped flow test before I install the pump/rez combo.
Sorry, but that will have to do.
I have grand plans, but limited time to execute them.
I am assuming this is something you are making for someone Sprocket? Do you have any pics of this pump/res combo you are working on? I thought the radiical top was for your system.
I would think the reason that Laing doesn't is that the PC watercooling industy represents such a small part of their sales that it is not worth casting a top just for us. They don't make this pump for our use, we just use it because it works well. It would be nice if they would however.
IIRC, the original buyer of the DDC was Apple. So it is made for the watercooling market, it's just not made for hotrodders like us. Ironically, it is because it was designed for cooling a computer that it has that elbow at the inlet -- so it could fit into a drive bay.
clocker2
05-01-06, 09:53 PM
I am assuming this is something you are making for someone Sprocket? Do you have any pics of this pump/res combo you are working on? I thought the radiical top was for your system.
Oh no, Sprocket is my PC and the Radical top/pump is for her.
I killed 5 hours today trying to design/fit a pump/rez combo before giving up and reusing the Swiftec mini-rez that was in the old loop.
This round of mods involved replacing the 1/2" Tygon with 3/8", swapping out the Storm (rev.1) for an Apogee, replacing the Maze GPU with the Stasis Thermal Neptune and the MCP655 pump with the MCP355/Radiical top. Also, the Maze chipset block was ditched in favor of a Jing-Ting Chipforce heatpipe cooler.
Whew!
I did replicate your flow test however.
At least the modified top part.
I ran it once just to prime the pump and get my timing set up...don't have a stopwatch so I had to use an atomic sychronized clock, but the results of the next three runs were all within a second or so of each other so I think I got it pretty close.
2 gallons in 48 seconds.
The second run was 46 sec., but I'll settle for 48sec. as an average.
So, 150 GPH give or take.
This little hummer rawks!
Best of all, the annoying high-pitched whine of the MCP655 is completely absent.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/Radiical4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/clocker/Radiical5.jpg
In the second shot you can see that the pump sits edgewise, the outlet pointing straight into the radiator inlet. The tube from the reservoir to the center of the Radiical top is 1/2" to ensure sufficient flow to the impellor.
Even with the 90degree fittings and the smaller tubing the flow in this loop is noticably stronger than the old loop.
Losing the northbridge block and swapping out the Storm for the freer-flowing Apogee probably accounts for this.
So far, CPU and GPU temps remain identical to the large-bore setup but the Jing-Ting is not as good as the Maze4...NB temp has gone from @27c to 40c.
Edit: Apparently my NB fan header is dead. Moving to a functional header has dropped NB temps to the low 30's. Still not as good as the waterblock but much more acceptable :beer:.
nikhsub1
05-01-06, 11:21 PM
That's an enormous increase in flow for such a simple modification (not everybody makes an entirely new top...the center inlet can be added to the stock cover relatively easily).
Makes me wonder why Laing doesn't offer a stock version configured this way.
This has been known for a long time now, modded top almost doubles flow rate. See here: http://www.systemcooling.com/images/reviews/LiquidCooling/Swiftech_MCP350_Mod/image10big.gif
Very nice setup Clocker2. I can't say that I've given my PC a name, although my wife has accused me of loving it more than her at times given the amount of time I have spent messing with it. I guess in a way she has at times had a point about the time thing...
Stinks that the res thing didn't work out. It can be frustrating sometimes when you spend hours only to have to give up in futility.
Thanks for running the test. That tells me that my homemade top is flowing on par with the radiical top. I figured it would. I have three blocks of acrylic left. I am toying around with the idea of making three more tops just for the fun of it.
I've got some changes to make to mine also. I'm going to change some tubing routing to make wire management easier and go to the DDC pump with my acrylic top hopefully at the end of this week.
clocker2
05-02-06, 05:16 AM
Thanks for running the test. That tells me that my homemade top is flowing on par with the radiical top. I figured it would. I have three blocks of acrylic left. I am toying around with the idea of making three more tops just for the fun of it.
I suspect that had our test setups been identical the results would have been closer as well.
I had the "feed tank" (AKA, 5 gallon paint bucket) directly above the pump...total tube length @ 2" from bottom of bucket to pump intake. So I had 3 gallons of (distilled) water sitting right on the impellor inlet. You had much more tubing...maybe that would account for some of the discrepancy.
BTW,I could have made the rez work but it would have involved modifications specific to this install. Since I'm considering a move to a new case (TJ07) I decided to leave it alone for the time being.
Are you sure your top is a radiical top? The reason I ask is that is does not match at all the pics that are on the radiical.com.au website, but it looks exactly like the Alphacool top.
Those TJ107 cases are just too expensive. I actually saw one at Microcenter in Atlanta a few weeks ago being clearanced for $100 and I thought that was a cheap price. But I don't need a case. I'd still like to see that res of yours.
clocker2
05-02-06, 03:27 PM
Jeez, maybe it is an Alphacool top.
It was sold as a Radiical though and I admit I did no research...bought it on a whim a few months ago.
This (http://www.frozencpu.com/ex-res-86.html) is the rez I was trying to fit.
I could machine new end caps for it and mount to my (unknown)pump top but decided not to bother right now.
I sure hope you didn't spend $70 + shipping on that thing. Anodized aluminum :(
In the case of your top, it must be the Alphacool. Nothing wrong with that, I just think the radiical top looks much better.
In the case of your top, it must be the Alphacool. Nothing wrong with that, I just think the radiical top looks much better.
I agree. And it should get a little more performance to boot. But Alphacool's top isn't bad at all. Awfully expensive, though.
I'd like to see someone make a make a no-frills, any-color-you-want-as long-as-it's-black, high-performance top for the DDC and sell it for around $15.
I agree. And it should get a little more performance to boot. But Alphacool's top isn't bad at all. Awfully expensive, though.
I'd like to see someone make a make a no-frills, any-color-you-want-as long-as-it's-black, high-performance top for the DDC and sell it for around $15.
The Alphacool isn't really expensive if you live in Europe. It is only like 20Euro for them.
$15 for a top would be nice, but it would have to take some serious volume for that to work. Although the top can be cast, just having to cut the threads has to add to the cost.
nachosyumm
05-03-06, 12:55 AM
Over the summer ill work on the top unless someone else does. There is obviously a US market for them. Im going to buy a 350 this sunday when i drive up to microcenter. I love my iwaki, but since i am replacing my fans with quieter ones I felt i should also get a quieter pump. Also, i am working on a smaller case and the iwakis are huge.
Are the only places to buy the tops overseas?
Personally i dont mind modding the top, but I would prefer to have a 1/2 outlet.
$15 for a top would be nice, but it would have to take some serious volume for that to work. Although the top can be cast, just having to cut the threads has to add to the cost.
I was thinking molded 1/2" barbs with no threads.
Oh, do you mean the threads for the bolts that hold the pump together? Maybe some kind of cap nut could be epoxied in. Hmmm, even friction fit would be good enough if the nut rested on the top.
I was thinking molded 1/2" barbs with no threads.
Oh, do you mean the threads for the bolts that hold the pump together? Maybe some kind of cap nut could be epoxied in. Hmmm, even friction fit would be good enough if the nut rested on the top.
I could see 1/2" barbs molded in work. I hadn't thought of that for some reason, but that makes sense.
As for the mounting threads, you could just leave a hole going all of the way through so that a bolt goes into a cap nut. It looks better having the bolt actually screw into the top, but I think that could still look OK. That way there would be no threading required.
nachosyumm: Voyuermods imports Alphacool tops from Germany (http://www.voyeurmods.com/index.php?action=item&id=2395&prevaction=category&previd=2&prevstart=0). As far as I know they are the only US seller. The only other clear top I am aware of is the radiical.com.au turbo head from Australia.
I must admit though that I do prefer the look of my own top over the Alphacool. ;)
nachosyumm
05-03-06, 02:11 AM
after all that work, i would prefer it too
clocker2
05-03-06, 06:30 AM
Upon casual inspection it appears that the only real difference between the Aphacool and Radiical tops is Alphacool's inclusion of the "legacy" side input channel.
Not at all sure why they did this although in my install it was a handy place to plumb in a drain line.
And yes, I did spend $70 on the aluminum rez...it is very nicely made, looks quite nice (your opinion may vary) and I consider the "problem" of mixing metals in a loop to be waaaay overexaggerated.
I think the idea of using through bolts/nuts rather than threading the top itself makes a great deal of sense. After my experience with the Stasis Thermal Neptune block I'm leery of threaded plastic as a retaining method irregardless of the type of plastic involved.
MoreGooder
05-03-06, 07:02 AM
And yes, I did spend $70 on the aluminum rez...it is very nicely made, looks quite nice (your opinion may vary) and I consider the "problem" of mixing metals in a loop to be waaaay overexaggerated.
Here's what can happen with a mixed metal system. Of course, anticorrosive additives (antifreeze for instance) will slow this process down, but unless you change it out regularly (bad for the environment, even when properly disposed) you're going to see this type of corrosion eventually.
Senfu Gone WRONG (http://www.dansdata.com/burning.htm)
And yes, I did spend $70 on the aluminum rez...it is very nicely made, looks quite nice (your opinion may vary) and I consider the "problem" of mixing metals in a loop to be waaaay overexaggerated.
I think the idea of using through bolts/nuts rather than threading the top itself makes a great deal of sense. After my experience with the Stasis Thermal Neptune block I'm leery of threaded plastic as a retaining method irregardless of the type of plastic involved.
That res does look very good I'll admit, its just that $70 is a lot to pay for just a res. And I do agree that the problem of mixed metal is overexaggerated when you are talking about copper and anodized aluminum. I just personally would rather avoid mixing these when possible.
What happened with your Stasis Thermal block?
I hate when tools die. I started working on 3 more blocks just to try a couple of ideas and my stupid rotary tool died. Now I have got to go get another one. I guess that is what I get for not buying a Dremel to start with. The problem is that I am broke for the next couple of days so I'm stuck waiting.
MoreGooder
05-03-06, 05:34 PM
Is the inside of that rez annodized though?
.... OK, back on topic:
Excellent work with the new top. I am amazed at your skills and determination.
clocker2
05-04-06, 07:54 AM
Is the inside of that rez annodized though?
Yes, of course it is.
What happened with your Stasis Thermal block?
One of the four mounting studs pulled right out of the block. It's a 2-56 rod, threaded into the Delrin top plate. Horrible design, IMO.
I hate when tools die.
When's the funeral and where do we send flowers?
Yes, of course it is.
One of the four mounting studs pulled right out of the block. It's a 2-56 rod, threaded into the Delrin top plate. Horrible design, IMO.
When's the funeral and where do we send flowers?
And that block was supposed to be so perfect from the thread about it.
Very funny about the funeral part. :p
Of course after spending $70 on that high speed glorified aluminum res, you might not have any money left. :)
Its just that not only did my rotary tool die, my rotozip got jammed and tore up also a few days before. And as you know, tools aren't cheap these days.
mistermr
05-07-06, 08:46 PM
Best of all, the annoying high-pitched whine of the MCP655 is completely absent.
you must be thinking of the D4...... the D5 is quiet.
Electron Chaser
05-07-06, 09:06 PM
I must admit that when I first seen this thread immedately a vision of a empty two liter bottle, some super glue, a pair of scissors and some duct tape and some bailing wire popped into my head. You know the usual "MacGyver" DIY WCed Parts you see. Wow!! was I wrong. This is a first rate job. Nicely done!!!
you must be thinking of the D4...... the D5 is quiet.
No, he means the D5. The D5 does whine quite a bit compared to the MCP350. The MCP350 does not have that high-pitch to it at all and is quieter also. The D4 sounded like a fire truck.
I must admit that when I first seen this thread immedately a vision of a empty two liter bottle, some super glue, a pair of scissors and some duct tape and some bailing wire popped into my head. You know the usual "MacGyver" DIY WCed Parts you see. Wow!! was I wrong. This is a first rate job. Nicely done!!!
I appreciate that comment.
I went back and made two more blocks this time angling the outlet like the Alphacool block. Both came out fine and I tested them tonight and they work fine, but I still like my revision 4 block best, so I think that is the one I am going to use. I have used all 7 blocks of acrylic that I had so I guess my top building days are at a stand-still.
Also, I picked up a pencil torch and found that it worked great to flame polish the small grooves around the impellor chamber area. The normal MAPP plumbing torch just has too large of a flame for this. I was able to make the chamber just about crystal clear.
Well, I ordered a MCP350 10w pump to do some side-by-side comparisions with. I tried it last night.
With the 18w pump I have as I mentioned above, it took 130 seconds with the stock top to fill 2 gallons, and 51 seconds with my rev 4 top to fill 2 gallons.
With the 10w pump, it took about 125 seconds with the stock top to fill 2 gallons, and 43 seconds with my rev 4 top to fill 2 gallons.
The 10w outperformed the 18w??? The 18w is rated at having 600LPH vs the 10w having 400LPH. :confused:
The only thing I can think of that would be causing this are issues with the 18w pump. I have used it to do some testing only with but it doesn't want to start up properly, kind of chugs when it does, and now gets unusually hot on the bottom in a very short time. It could just be that I got a rare dud.
Any thoughts?
Also, I did some sound comparisons which I am posting in another thread if anyone's interested: http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=453456&page=3
The 18w DDC pump you had seemed to have major problems. When you finish your RMA and receive your new DDC, the test results should be more accurate.
The 18w DDC pump you had seemed to have major problems. When you finish your RMA and receive your new DDC, the test results should be more accurate.
The one thing that makes me think that, although this pump may be developing issues, it is still pumping out fine is that on the previous page, Clocker2 timed his 18w with an Alphacool top and its time is almost the same as my time. So his 18w pump timed about the same as mine.
clocker2
05-09-06, 06:02 AM
Clocker2 timed his 18w with an Alphacool top and its time is almost the same as my time. So his 18w pump timed about the same as mine.
Indeed.
Just slightly better but probably due to a different test layout.
Wouldn't it be something if your top ended up being better than the Alphacool?
Wouldn't it be something if your top ended up being better than the Alphacool?
Somehow I doubt that is the case, but I see no reason that it should not perform the same as the Alphacool since both are just slight variations of the original top.
I may just start a different thread regarding this, but the point that i am puzzled about is the fact that I am getting slightly better numbers with both the stock top AND my top than I got with the 18w, and your numbers agree with mine as to the output of the 18w. I used the EXACT same setup to test them both.
Something is going on when the 18w that both you and I have are performing on a free flow test THE SAME OR WORSE than the 10w. Does the 18w really perform better than the 10w despite what the numbers say?
clocker2
05-09-06, 07:50 AM
Does the 18w really perform better than the 10w despite what the numbers say?
I don't know as I have no 10w version to play with.
Also, I never tested the 18w with the stock top- I'm fond of voiding warranties as soon as possible you know.
My loop gets redone as soon as the new mobo shows up...maybe I'll rerun the flow test again while the pump is out of the case. If I do I'll try to get a real stopwatch to play with...trying to look at a clock and the bucket concurrently was a real PITA.
At any rate, the modded 355 is flowing way more than the 655 did.
It now churns the Swiftech minirez much more actively than the larger pump (although the change in CPU blocks and eliminating the NB probably explains why).
This time round the NB block goes back in and I'm going to retry the reviled aluminum rez...we'll see how the 18w handles all that.
Ok, I went and swapped out the problematic 18w pump. To be honest, I don't think it was the pump's fault that it went bad. While testing the first two blocks, the pump impeller did rub up against the top and stopped spinning. This probably caused the problems with it. Of course I fixed this issue with the rev3 and rev4 tops (I also made a couple of rev5 tops not pictured).
So, here are some final flow test numbers:
DDC 10w- rated at 400lph
Stock top- 90 seconds for 2 gallons = 80gph=303lph
My rev4 top- 43 seconds for 2 gallons =167gph=632lph
DDC 18w- rated at 600lph
Stock top- 56 seconds for 2 gallons = 128gph=484lph
My rev4 top- 34 sconds for 2 gallons = 211gph=799lph
Some observations:
1. Both pumps are performing at about 100lph less than rated in my sink setup doing about 1' up uphill pumping through about 3' of tubing.
2. The difference between the two in pumping power remains about the same regardless of the top used. There is an average of about a 170lph difference between the two in my test setup.
3. The percent of improvement between the two pumps diminishes with the use of my top. With the stock top, there is a whopping 59% improvement in flow from the 10w to the 18w. With my top, there is only a 26% improvement from the 10w to the 18w.
4. Comparing against the PQ curve of the D5, the 10w with my top is roughly equal to the D5 on number 3, and the 18w with my top is roughly equal to the D5 on number 4.
5. For the person like me who is neurotic about noise levels, this presents the question that given that the 18w is noticably louder than the 10w, with my top is it worth using the 18w pump for only a 26% improvement, which given the increased flowrates, may not result in any measurable system temp or performance difference?
damarble
01-23-07, 11:53 PM
Hey voigts I was wondering what bit you used to bore the 1.5" hole in the block? I need to make a new top since I fubared my alphacool trying to mod it. :\ I have some forstner bits and they seen perfect.
ctrl_alt_del_
01-24-07, 06:01 PM
voigts - awesome work. I wish I had the skills... :shrug:
I don't think a forstner bit will work as well as they make rough cuts, not to mention a forstner bit that large is expensive.
I just used a plain old wood boring bit to cut the hole, and then I used a rotary tool with a small coarse sanding drum to make a bit of a spiral to the chamber just like the stock top. The hole that the point of the bit makes I then drilled out for the inlet barb. The rotary tool is your friend in this project.
It was a fun project, but it took several tries to get it right. One thing is absolutely essential. You have to use cast acrylic as it is a lot harder and behaves more like wood. Otherwise if you use extruded acrylic, it just melts when you try to drill it or work with it.
I liked the wood bit also in that it makes a very clean cut hole. And it is very important to get the hole to exactly the right depth so that you have minimal clearance between the impeller and the top so that you don't have a problem with leakage.
The two other challenges are getting the mounting holes exactly right so that the impeller sits properly in the spiral shape of the chamber, and secondly drilling the chamber outlet hole without making the acrylic around the hole too thin.
Honestly, with the invent of Petras top, it probably isn't worth the trouble. I didn't like the Alphacool top, and am glad I made my own. It still is happily chugging away in my rig. And his top is almost a mirror of what I came up with. But truthfully I would consider buying his top. If you like the challenge and have the tools though, have at it.
I have to say however that it is gratifying to me to have made my own, and to see that it performs on par with the best the commercial world has to offer.
damarble
01-24-07, 07:05 PM
You mean one of these?
http://i2.ebayimg.com/03/i/05/8f/78/e2_1.JPG
I didn't think that would work well because they leave a hole that's not quite flat. But the forstner leaves a perfectly flat bottom. In my experience they leave a pretty smooth hole too.
I've got both bits and plenty of material so I guess I can try both and see what works better.
I've got some other plastics too I want to try out.
Yeah I agree with you the Petra is a lot better than the Alphacool. I bored my inlet and outlet to 3/8" and it seemed to help. Only problem is I chipped out the thin acrylic around the inlet and had to epoxy it. On the outlet I cut into one of the screw holes and had to silicone that. The epoxy and silicone gave way after only a day. :P
yes, that it almost it, except the wood boring bit I got doesn't have cutting points on the ends. The cutting blades are flat, so with a drill press, I got a perfectly flat hole. If you already have a Forstner bit that size, give it a whirl. It might work fine. I just didn't want to spent like $30 on one bit when the $4 wood bit worked fine.
I made the mistake after I made the initial block of getting some extruded acrylic to make some more. Wrong answer. Extruded just melts and is impossible to work with. Being able to actually use Delrin would be nice, but I got the cast acrylic for a whole lot less than Delrin was going to cost.
I would like to see some pics if you do this to see what you end up with and how it goes.
Mycobacteria
01-24-07, 08:22 PM
Those bits are usually for wood work and go blunt friggin fast in acrylic
And because they scratch out the acryic which creates a lot of heat the acrylic starts to melt.
So with those bits you have to go slow and you have to sharpen them all the time
I didn't have a problem with it getting dull quickly or heating up too much. The trick with acrylic, unless you are using special acrylic bits and blades, is to cut or drill in small bites so that you don't overheat it. With a drill press, I would cut a bit, back out of the hole, cut a bit more, back out, etc. I had NO problems this way.
Captain Slug
01-24-07, 08:32 PM
Yes keeping the piece you're working on below it's melting point greatly determines the finish and ease of your work. If you have a compressed air supply USE IT. Otherwise take your time.
Those bits are usually for wood work and go blunt friggin fast in acrylic
And because they scratch out the acryic which creates a lot of heat the acrylic starts to melt.
So with those bits you have to go slow and you have to sharpen them all the time
Huh? I use them all the time with plastics and it's impossible to dull them when working with acrylic or polycarbonate. They work far better than normal drill bits because they won't get stuck or bite off huge chunks. They're also very affordable for drilling larger holes.
The only downside to them is that you won't get as smooth of a finish on the inside walls of the hole.
Ideally drill bits with a shallow bite angle should be used with plastics. I find guide-point woodworking bits to work even better than plastic specific ones.
damarble
01-24-07, 08:34 PM
yes, that it almost it, except the wood boring bit I got doesn't have cutting points on the ends. The cutting blades are flat, so with a drill press, I got a perfectly flat hole. If you already have a Forstner bit that size, give it a whirl. It might work fine. I just didn't want to spent like $30 on one bit when the $4 wood bit worked fine.
I made the mistake after I made the initial block of getting some extruded acrylic to make some more. Wrong answer. Extruded just melts and is impossible to work with. Being able to actually use Delrin would be nice, but I got the cast acrylic for a whole lot less than Delrin was going to cost.
I would like to see some pics if you do this to see what you end up with and how it goes.
Oh I see. I'll have to look over what I have and make sure if my wood boring bit that size is flat or not. Almost every one I've seen has the points, at least in the smaller sizes.
Thanks for the tip on the cast acrylic. I wanted to use Delrin too but it is a little spendy for now. I've got polypropylene and HDPE polyethylene I want to try too.
I'll make a thread with once I get started so you can see what disasters I'm able to create. ;)
Captain Slug
01-24-07, 08:39 PM
HDPE will work fine, but is a bit fussy to tool because it clumps and melts readily. Very chemically resistive (is generally use to make cutting boards).
Polypropylene behaves similarly, but can handle far less tensile and compressive stress so I wouldn't bother with that one unless you just want to play with it.
The only downside to them is that you won't get as smooth of a finish on the inside walls of the hole.[/QUOTE]
Since I took my rotary tool to spiral out the hole like the stock top and then brazed the whole thing with my trusty torch, small scratches really didn't matter. And just a quick touch with a fine grit drum removes any scratches quickly without removing any amount of material. It would be nice to have the money to use acrylic saw blades and bits, but they are just way too expensive for me.
For instance, when cutting the 1" sheet into squares for this, or for that matter all of the acrylic I cut for my custom wood case, I used a fine tooth plywood blade with my miter saw and worked the blade up and down in and out of the acrylic, cutting a bit at a time so as to generate the least amount of heat possible. It is the friction of the bit or blade that heats up the acrylic more than the cutting.
I just made a new top for my new Conroe setup, so I thought I would post feedback on how things went with the Rev 4 top I made and the newest top.
The Rev4 top has been in my rig up until last week. I wanted to make a new top to be as close to the original as possible. The Rev4 top is very close, but I am picky.
The Rev4 top held up very well.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCaseII/completed/Mar07Conroe/oldTop2.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCaseII/completed/Mar07Conroe/oldTop1.jpg
It has no noticeable wear and only caught a bit of the blue dye I used to use where there is a gap where the outlet barb is epoxied in.
I went through a couple of blocks, and then made a couple of more. This block is my Revision 5. It is very similar to Rev4. I got a different sheet of cast acrylic from Ebay for this, and frankly for some reason it is harder than the cast acrylic that I made the Rev4 from and doesn't braze as well. Functionally it is fine however.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCaseII/completed/Mar07Conroe/newTop1.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCaseII/completed/Mar07Conroe/newTop2.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCaseII/completed/Mar07Conroe/newTop3.jpg
This time I made an acrylic template of the hole/barb alignment as that was a real problem in making the tops.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCaseII/completed/Mar07Conroe/topHolesTemplate.jpg
I also drew a template based upon a scan of the original top so that I could get the top shape very close to the original top.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCaseII/completed/Mar07Conroe/DDCtop.gif
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCaseII/completed/Mar07Conroe/newTopTemplate.jpg
With all of the posts regarding pump failures with aftermarket tops creating some question in my mind as to their effects, I want mine to be as close as I can make it to the stock impeller chamber (I don't have to worry about patent infringement issues just for my own use).
Looks very good. If you haven't installed the new top yet, would you post a side by side pic with tht stock top?
Where does your outlet path widen out to 1/2"? Is it 1/4" at the impeller chamber or is it wider there too?
One suggestion: You might get slightly performance if you used epoxy putty to fill in the extra space between the inlet barb and the ceiling of the impeller chamber. This might (or might not) give you a little more head by preventing leakage. I think that's the purpose of that little ring on the stock top.
Plumber's epoxy putty usually grey, but doesn't have to be ugly if you practice with it a bit first. Be sure to get enough on before it starts to get hard or there will be a visible seam where you added later. I usually polish it with my skin as it cures to give it a glossy finish. And of course, rough up whatever you want it to stick to so it has something to grab.
I'll try to take that pic tomorrow (or actually today from looking at the clock-I spend too much time around here).
The outlet is drilled 1/4" and widens just before the outlet barb. The stock top outlet is 1/4". I just drilled the hole for the outlet path all the way into the impeller chamber and down the side, drilled a 1/2" hole for the barb, and then reamed out a bit with my rotary tool between where the 1/4" outlet hole meets the 1/2" barb area.
I may look into the plumber's epoxy idea as I could think of no good way to address that issue. It is really tricky though as the clearance between the impeller and the top is only about 1/16", so there isn't much room for error. This tight clearance makes it tricky in that the impeller chamber depth is right at 5/16", and it takes some work to drill it exactly that depth.
You could avoid any clearance issues by pressing a flat plate of some sort into the impeller chamber occasionally to push the putty back into the inlet. The stuff cures hard in 20 min, though, so get used to it before you try it on your pump. It can be sanded after it cures (not sure how good a finish you'll get, though). If you want to get rid of it, you'll have to machine it away.
If you want a longer working time, you could use Apoxie Sculpt. http://www.avesstudio.com/Products/Apoxie_Sculpt/apoxie_sculpt.html
This stuff has the opposite problem. Takes forever to cure and you have to watch that it doesn't sag before it hardens. The Natural/Cream color actually comes out green, or at least the batch I got does. Looks like Jade's plain sister. Hmmm, not sure how resistant it is to chemicals, though.
Sounds like you've got a state of the art DDC top there. I wonder if there will be any difference in performance compared to the earlier versions.
And yeah, I often wind up sending more time here than i mean to too. Well, we could do a lot worse.
Moto7451
03-14-07, 02:13 AM
for some reason it is harder than the cast acrylic that I made the Rev4 from and doesn't braze as well. Functionally it is fine however.
More than likely its extruded Acrylic and not cast acrylic. I use extruded Acrylic in all of my cases (the ones I build, I should post another one sometime) and there is a noticable strength difference. Also it seems to be a bit more heat resistant (doesn't gunk up the cutting bits so quickly when they're hot). That could explain why it didn't act the same under heat treatment. I think #4 is perdier ;).
No, they both were cast as I did get a hold of some without paying attention that wasn't cast and it was impossible to work with as everything just melted whenever you tried to machine it.
vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2013, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.