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Are there very compact water chillers?

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GV2NIX

Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2004
Location
Pyeongtaek, South Korea
This question is going to sound stupid, but I'm perplexed, and I need to know.

I was looking at Alienware (haven't looked at the site for about 4 years) just to see what kind of craziness was available these days. I saw a water-cooled rig with an FX-60 and Quad SLi being water cooled by what looked to be very small tubing and no rad in sight. I was confused and wondered how this rig could even run for extended periods of time without having the water boil. Then I read that it uses a chiller. It started to make sense since the CPU block was huge and I couldn't see what was actually in there. I guess it was a pelt?

I'm just confused. I thought water chillers were huge. Maybe the water chiller they're using is crap, but it's good enough to keep that FX-60 and 4 GPUs cool, so it can't be that crappy. Does anyone know more about the Alienware water chiller system? It seems really compact and I'm wondering if I can adapt what they did to my own rig to make a more effective system. I only have 1 CPU and 1 GPU, so if they can make that work for them, then I should be able to make it work for me right?
 
This is what he's talking about if anyone is interested. I think the rad is that thing in the front of the CPU.

quad_enlarge_open_chassis.jpg
 
I'd agree with thegreek. Looks like the rad over the CPU, and attached to the case exhaust fan. It also looks like there is a pump under that same cover, judging by the hoses. Then there is another hose going to the top of the case, prolly a T-Line.
 
But you see the bulb at the top of the case? I know there's some other cooling component in there, so I was thinking that part of the chiller was in there (whatever part it is). Yeah, the rig is super expensive, and I'm sure a lot of that goes to the most expensive A64 avalable, and the 4GPUs. It's intruiging, because I was under the impression that most water chiller systems take up tons of space. Here, they seem to be effectively cooling 5 very hot components with somewhat compact components. Like I said, maybe it's not the most powerful water chiller system, but it must be good enough to have the rig run 24/7 at full load without any problems otherwise it would just be garbage.

It makes me wonder if I could do the same thing. Is that a rad over the CPU? Or is it a peltier assembly of some sort. The whole thing just confuses me. I want to write to Alienware to ask them to give me detailed tech docs for the whole thing, but I doubt they'd do that. They'll probably just give me some glossed over description that doesn't tell me anything.
 
Yeah, I was thinking that too. So I guess, the pump and the second rad are up top and the first rad is in the front? I can't imagine being able to cool that TEC with just one rad and that skinny tubing, you know?

Edit: Actually, you know what? There doesn't appear to be a rad in the front. No tubing going there at all. Just one rad on top? Would that really be enough? It must be if they did it... I wonder how loud it is.
 
GV2NIX said:
But you see the bulb at the top of the case? I know there's some other cooling component in there, so I was thinking that part of the chiller was in there (whatever part it is). Yeah, the rig is super expensive, and I'm sure a lot of that goes to the most expensive A64 avalable, and the 4GPUs. It's intruiging, because I was under the impression that most water chiller systems take up tons of space. Here, they seem to be effectively cooling 5 very hot components with somewhat compact components. Like I said, maybe it's not the most powerful water chiller system, but it must be good enough to have the rig run 24/7 at full load without any problems otherwise it would just be garbage.

It makes me wonder if I could do the same thing. Is that a rad over the CPU? Or is it a pelt assembly of some sort. The whole thing just confuses me. I want to write to Alienware to ask them to give me detailed tech docs for the whole thing, but I doubt they'd do that. They'll probably just give me some glossed over description that doesn't tell me anything.


Garbage it isn't, IMHO, I agree wholly. Prolly can't get near ambient temps, but it really doesn't have to in order to be effective. I be you could do the same thing, perhaps even better with a bigger rad/case to work with.

Looking at a different alienware system which isn't so packed full of hardware, you can clearly see 2 hoses going up to the same device leading me to believe it might be a radiator or chiller after all. Also, this pic is lit better and I noticed the PSU was inverted, suggesting that they are using the PSU intake fan to draw air through the whatevercooleritis. So from these photos, I think that there are 2 rads/chiller units in the alienware unit you asked about. I have yet to actually see the pumps that they say are in there.
 
Interesting, and thanks for the pics! Definitely easier to see what's going on without all the other stuff.

Call me crazy, but the case seems like it's almost as small as a large mid-tower. Since I have a mid-tower myself, the whole reason why I was asking about this was that it was giving me ideas, haha! It makes me wonder if I can get a chiller in my box. I assumed that chillers always came from water fountains or water cooers of some sort, but any idea what kind of chiller they're using here? I'm almost certain it's something proprietary, but it's most likely based off of something in existence. If they can jam a chiller into those small places, then maybe I can do the same.
 
GV2NIX said:
Interesting, and thanks for the pics! Definitely easier to see what's going on without all the other stuff.

Call me crazy, but the case seems like it's almost as small as a large mid-tower. Since I have a mid-tower myself, the whole reason why I was asking about this was that it was giving me ideas, haha! It makes me wonder if I can get a chiller in my box. I assumed that chillers always came from water fountains or water cooers of some sort, but any idea what kind of chiller they're using here? I'm almost certain it's something proprietary, but it's most likely based off of something in existence. If they can jam a chiller into those small places, then maybe I can do the same.

No problem. As an afterthought, they might not actually be 'chilling' the water after all. I only say this because it is my understanding that if the cooling system has the ability to bring temps to below ambient (as the word 'chiller' suggests, a responsible company, with profit in mind, would insulate the hoses/blocks to prevent condensation from drowning the PSU, mobo below the CPU block, and vidcards. I see nothing of the sort in their photos.

However, please, for the love of all that is chilly, do not write-off the idea of chilling the water in your system! I have thought about making a crude copper waterblock designed to have a mid-wattage pelt on both sides and cooling them with one loop, while running a second loop through the ghettoblock to cool the components. Swiftech had the idea first, but it is too expensive for my wife's tastes, especially as I.... uhhh, we... would need a whole 2nd loop, 24v PSU, insulation, probably a drowned component (or 3) with all the added fittings/hoses, knowing me.

EDIT: Oh, and btw, you prolly are crazy.
 
::pulling hair out::

:bang head

The cover/rad thing over the CPU was reviewed previously. It wasnt from alienware. It is a radiator that has a TEC somewhere on it. Not a tec on the WB, but a tec on the radiator. So that first pic has two rads. One big one up top and a second one right by the CPU that has the TEC. I've been searching all over for that damn review. Still looking. Will post it if I find it.

edit-----------

CoolIt

http://www.frozencpu.com/ex-wat-90.html?id=uUfJgHVq

http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/review-327-1.htm
 
Last edited:
Dice said:
No problem. As an afterthought, they might not actually be 'chilling' the water after all. I only say this because it is my understanding that if the cooling system has the ability to bring temps to below ambient (as the word 'chiller' suggests, a responsible company, with profit in mind, would insulate the hoses/blocks to prevent condensation from drowning the PSU, mobo below the CPU block, and vidcards. I see nothing of the sort in their photos.
Good observation, but I doubt they would be able to claim to chill the water below ambient (which they do claim) without actually accomplishing it. That would lead to a whole load of problems, and I'm sure Alienware wouldn't want to be responsible for dealing with false advertising claims. Also, theoretically, they could be using a very weak chiller which would, without any heat being added to the water, may lower the water temeprature considerably below ambient. It could very well be the fact that once it's all hooked up that the water is not below ambient or at least only very slightly below ambient, in which case, insulation wouldn't be necessary, know what I mean? I suspect that it is in fact a chiller, but a very weak one, which, despite being weak, would still help cool better than just a rad alone.

jamesavery22, intresting, that would make a great deal of sense since there is a fan that seems to be acting both as an exhaust and to pull air over something in that neat little package over the CPU. THANKS SO MUCH for finding links to the reviews! I'm definitely going to read those as it seems like it would be a great idea. Assuming it actually does a decent job, I think that would be a great addition to my system (if it fits). That way, I could have a rad in the front, and the chiller on top of the CPU. It's appears to be a really nify contraption. I'll need to look into this more. Has anyone around here actually used it?

P.S. Yes, I am crazy. :p
 
Are there any results for the coolit freezone using AS5 and a 120mm fan?

Those are the numbers I'd like to see. This makes me really want one, except I keep holding out hope that the OCZ cryo-z will be released soon.
 
GV2NIX said:
Good observation, but I doubt they would be able to claim to chill the water below ambient (which they do claim) without actually accomplishing it. That would lead to a whole load of problems, and I'm sure Alienware wouldn't want to be responsible for dealing with false advertising claims. Also, theoretically, they could be using a very weak chiller which would, without any heat being added to the water, may lower the water temperature considerably below ambient. It could very well be the fact that once it's all hooked up that the water is not below ambient or at least only very slightly below ambient, in which case, insulation wouldn't be necessary, know what I mean? I suspect that it is in fact a chiller, but a very weak one, which, despite being weak, would still help cool better than just a rad alone.

jamesavery22, interesting, that would make a great deal of sense since there is a fan that seems to be acting both as an exhaust and to pull air over something in that neat little package over the CPU. THANKS SO MUCH for finding links to the reviews! I'm definitely going to read those as it seems like it would be a great idea. Assuming it actually does a decent job, I think that would be a great addition to my system (if it fits). That way, I could have a rad in the front, and the chiller on top of the CPU. It's appears to be a really nify contraption. I'll need to look into this more. Has anyone around here actually used it?

P.S. Yes, I am crazy. :p

If Alienware/Dell claims that it's chiller can cool to below room temps, I'd say that is the case. Like you said, they don't need that kind of publicity.

However, according to the link jamesavery22 provided, (kudos gumshoe) the unit can and would cool to below room temp if it weren't for the manually adjustable thermal control unit (pot?) built into the system which prevents overcooling** which may cause condensation.

This looks like a fun toy, indeed. $399 +s/h is steep, but the idea is copyable I'm sure.

**I may never use 'overcooling' in a sentence on these forums ever again.
 
Dice said:
**I may never use 'overcooling' in a sentence on these forums ever again.
It's ok, I'll just pretend that I didn't read that. :p

Yeah, it looks kinda cool. According to Jeepguy, OCZ is coming out with one, so maybe I'll wait and see what that's all about. At any rate, this Freezone cooler won't fit in my Praetorian. *Sigh!* I have yet to find a case that's as funcitonal and minimal as my Praetorian only with a 120mm exhaust and a bit more room. I guess either way, I'm going to have to get a new case before I try any of these chillers out. :(
 
GV2NIX said:
It's ok, I'll just pretend that I didn't read that. :p

Yeah, it looks kinda cool. According to Jeepguy, OCZ is coming out with one, so maybe I'll wait and see what that's all about. At any rate, this Freezone cooler won't fit in my Praetorian. *Sigh!* I have yet to find a case that's as funcitonal and minimal as my Praetorian only with a 120mm exhaust and a bit more room. I guess either way, I'm going to have to get a new case before I try any of these chillers out. :(

The cooler I am refering to is the OCZ Cryo-Z. Which is a differenct concept than the CoolIt Freezone. It's an external phase change box. It's expected/announced retail is $300. However, it was due out sometime ago.

According to this thread, it may not come out unless some sort of engineering obsitcal is overcome (see last page)


If OCZ unit does come out, it will be a better performing unit at a better price, which is why I keep sticking to my crappy stock air setup. If doesn't come out soon, I may have to fold.
 
Oh, I see, interesting.

I'm really averse to having external units, so that's why I'm exploring these less than optimal, but just sufficiently strong mini solutions. I guess I'll keep reading and brainstorming. Or maybe I can mod the Freezone unit or something, haha!
 
Skilled custom phase-change builders can put a direct die unit in a case ;)

If I remember right they perfer like two cases to do the job though lol.
 
I think some classification of cooling needs to be thrown out there.

The OP never really said what he/she wanted to do...

We went from straight watercooling, to a TEC chiller, to a phase-change setup.


Since the title of the thread is "water chillers" I'll stay with chillers.

Chillers are addons to watercooling loops that replace radiators. Atleast in normal cases. A chiller acts just like a radiator. Strips the heat from the water and expels it into the air. The difference between a chiller and a radiator is a chiller will use energy to suck more heat out of the water than just a radiator. Chillers come in the forms of TEC chillers and chillers that use Compressors/Evaporators.

TEC chillers aren't very popular. You need huge TECs(wattage wise) to get good results. If you search for chillers on shopping.yahoo or ebay you'll see all kinds and prices for Aquarium chillers. The cheap ones are always TEC chillers. If you tore one apart it'd break down to this: waterblock + tec + heatsink.
Thats all the CoolIt is. Its two waterblocks sandwiched over two TECs and a weird heatsink. Cold sides of the TECs are on the WBs and the hot sides are on the heatsink. Simple enough. You'd expect the WB to get very cold and the heatsink to get very hot. If the TECs arent powerful enough it usually just ends up with the WB being pretty hot and the heatsink being extremely hot.

The other kind of chillers(the expensive Aquarium chillers) work just like an AC unit. Coolant is compressed into a high pressure gas(gets hot), cools off a via a radiator/condenses into a liquid, goes through an expansion valve to expand into gas(becomes very cold), and finally goes through the evaporator.
In an AC unit that cold gas runs through a huge radiator/evaporator which air from inside your room is blown over. That air becomes cold which in turn cools your ***.
In a water chiller that cold gas runs through coils or some crud radiator/evaporator which the water from a loop is run over. That water cools whatever you want.
In both the hot high pressure gas goes through a radiator/condenser that has a fan on it.

Phase-change uses the same idea but instead of the cool low pressure gas going through a radiator to strip heat from the air, it goes through a block that is put directly onto the heatsource, IE. the CPU. This is much more efficient. Thats why the compressors you see used in this type are much weaker than ones you'll see in a chiller yet they get much lower temps.


All of these definitions are horribly inaccurate. Go find someone else's if you want a real definition :D I just posted it to give a general idea since this thread is bouncing around like pam anderson's twins.

So what do you want to do? Sub ambient temps seem to be your focus so telling you to go normal watercooling is probably out of the question.
If you want to cool multiple things, like GPU and CPU, I'd say go for a water chiller. You can do it with phasechange but you'd need multiple units I'm pretty sure. If this is your first time trying any of this that would be a heck of a bootcamp.
If you just want the lowest possible temps for your CPU then look into phase-change. xtremesystems.com has a great phase-change forum with good stickies and FAQs.

I'd recommend the first option. If you buy a aquarium chiller(lots of $$$) it will be as easy to setup as any standard(hehe was have standards?) external watercooling loop.


just my 2c
 
I didn't really start this thread with a clear goal in mind, I was more or less fascinated by the Alienware rig and was curious as to what they were using. Whenever I saw people using chillers, it was usually some huge thing they pulled out of an old water fountain or a water cooler, so I was surprised at seeing a water chiller being contained within a large mid-tower case.

After we found out what it was, it was then that I started to consider being able to use it. I don't want to have sub-ambient temps while in use, but I think a chiller would definitely help, even if it is a somewhat weak one with a gentle TEC. My case is a mid-tower, and I've been constantly trying to look for ways to get the most punch in that small case. My case limits my use of radiators and fan sizes to mostly 80mm fans and the BIM-II rad, so finding a cooling unit like the freezone is interesting. I've been occupying myself with trying to make things as compact, powerful, and cool at the same time. :)

I agree that phase change is out of the question. I have no experience with phase change, and I'm not trying to get close-to-freezing temps or below. Plus, I don't want to deal with the hassle of designing and setting one up and I want everything to be contained within my case. I wanted to see if I could improve on conventional water cooling with a compact chiller, and it looks like it might be possible.

jamesavery, I hope that sheds some light on the topic, and thanks for your input! I just wanted to spark some discussion and rumination. :)
 
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