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View Full Version : Hi Questions about Mach II GT Unit


phlow
06-23-06, 12:04 AM
I have a mach II GT phase change cooler. After reading about the different cpus trying to figure out which one is faster. A pentium 4 D 960 or A Pentium 4 670. I'm looking to overclock as high as possible, but from what I read the dual cores put off alot of heat and I was unsure if my cooler could handle it if I extreme overclocked a pentium D 960 ? & if It would be faster give me a higher benchmark then an overclocked pentium 670 ?

I'm thinking of using an Asus P5WD2 Premium motherboard or P5WD2-E Premium but unsure which is better for overclocking and which has wider CPU support, I was hoping that one of these boards would support both the pentium 670 and pentium D 960 & the pentium extreme edition CPU's, and maybe conroe & conroe XE if possible.

I have a radeon x1900xtx toxic version by sapphire
2 GB corsair DDR2 XMS2 twin matched pair 2x DDR-8500
4 sata 400 GB drives raid 5
i have an enermax 620watt PSU (wondering if that is good enough to support an extreme overclocked pentium d processor)

also if there are such thing as pentium D CPU's with unlocked multiplier.

read something about certain features like speedstep or eist being disabled on accident like a manufacturing defect with all the pentium D core cpu's is this true and does it matter ? what do tose features do mean ?

I also read that the pentium D processors aren't hyper threaded ? does that mean both cores in a pentium D look like only one physical CPU to the OS like windows XP ?

should I change the passive heatsink on the clock crystal i believe its called northbridge that comes on the above mentioned asus motherboards to an aftermarket active Heatsink with fan so that I wont have heat issues when running it at high FSB speeds like high 300's to 400's however high I can get it to go ?

Any light on the subject would help since im trying to make a super fast system and want it to be as overclockable as possible and hopefully be a board that will support conroe so I could change cpu in the future to conroe

My first post :)

greenmaji
06-23-06, 02:10 AM
:welcome:
The enermax 620W is a dual 12V rail unit.. 22A each.. for overclocking a dual core Pentium D system its generaly recomended to get a single 12V rail PSU that has a miniumum of 30A (if you plan on overclocking your X1900XTX make that quite a bit more then 30A ;) )
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817163111
its cheaper a few other places but thats the min. I would go for :)

The P5WD2-E will support 9XX or 6XX chips but not conroe, Asus is putting out a new 975 chipset mobo that will be ready for 6XX - kentfeild (quad-core conroe) out January next year. ASUS P5W DH Deluxe as mentioned in this thread
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=464755

The EE pentiums have unrealistily high multipliers (something like up to 60??? more then you would ever want to use ;) )
The EE presslers (9XX's the 955 and 965) have HT (cedarmills Im not sure about :shrug: )

Id put a fan on the northbridge.. something like this
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=260543
with a 7V mod :thup:

You seem extream enough that you'll want your motherboard Voltmodded
Vdroop is killer with netburst processors, you'll want a Vdroop mod done (by you or pay someone to do it :) ) also check out Vcore and Vdimm mods as well

As for your mach GT, to be perfectly honest.. I'd sell it and contact jinu117 here is a link to his profile :)
http://www.ocforums.com/member.php?u=29721
If your in the US, I would have him build me a custom single stage direct die and if your not, he should be able to find a reputable builder in your country :thup:
A custom unit would get you better temps and higher overclocks :thup:

Gautam
06-23-06, 07:29 AM
As for your mach GT, to be perfectly honest.. I'd sell it and contact jinu117 here is a link to his profile :)
http://www.ocforums.com/member.php?u=29721
If your in the US, I would have him build me a custom single stage direct die and if your not, he should be able to find a reputable builder in your country :thup:
A custom unit would get you better temps and higher overclocks :thup:
The only real difference between a Mach II and a custom unit (Jinu's in particular) is the refrigerant and evaporator. In fact, the GT actually uses R404A...so there goes the refrigerant difference. A slight charge adjustment and it should come within a few degrees, honestly. If you really need every last degree, an evap change can do it. As it is, -67C unloaded. Hardly enough reason to part with it.

A Pentium D appears as two physical cores to Windows, a Pentium D EE appears as four logical cores.

Seems like Asus might be re-releasing a new version of the P5WD2-E with Conroe support. Either way you probably want to hold off for about a month before purchasing anything.

NoL
06-23-06, 09:25 AM
Probe @ -67C unloaded still is far from accurate I'd say.
I'd go dual core, and get your GT modded.
The problem is its NOT just refrigerant and evaporator, compressor size and condenser size are also a bit low.

Gautam
06-23-06, 09:27 AM
Then why is the compressor soooo popular?

Lots of wonderful units have been made with the NF9FX. Its truly one of the best out there for our application...I think anyone experienced would agree with that.

There's nothing atypical about the condensor either, nothing that wouldn't be worth more than a couple of degrees.

NoL
06-23-06, 09:40 AM
Refrigeration moves heat, the condenser needs to be able to handle a larger heatload. If he recharges his unit to handle a 960 heavily overclocked, he'll need a desuiperheater (though he honestly should get a bigger condenser).
The nf9fx is quite a good compressor, but with todays CPU's and GPU's being hotter than a bakery oven, I think Jinu is right for moving towards the 11's.

Gautam
06-23-06, 09:53 AM
Jinu himself estimates a 3-5 C difference between the 9 and 11 for a Conroe. The condensor isn't the greatest but I really can't see it hurting too bad without an unholy heatload. DSH's seem sorta overrated to me...everyone's getting em these days often for no real reason.

Sure there's room for improvement, my only point is that the Mach II's are far from complete junk as some people pass them off to be.

And I certainly DO NOT mean to detract from Jinu's wonderful work in the slightest, I just don't see the need for taking the trouble of selling the Mach II GT, and asking him to build one.

NoL
06-23-06, 10:00 AM
DSH's seem sorta overrated to me...everyone's getting em these days often for no real reason.
Thats why I said better to get a thicker condenser.
Mach2Gt's are not complete junk, but under a 960 + overclock + higher voltage, it may go quite positve under load. And the temperatures from probe and mobo's are never to be trusted.

greenmaji
06-23-06, 01:32 PM
I wasn't saying the Mach is complete junk, If its new I would try to return it for a refund, the things are just expensive compared to a hefty custom build (NF11FX, thicker condensor, better evap and still less $$$ then a retail Mach).
And a SLHX is just a way to extend the condensing capasity of your unit G

If you get a Mach cheap used then by all means your :cool:

phlow
06-23-06, 03:49 PM
Thats why I said better to get a thicker condenser.
Mach2Gt's are not complete junk, but under a 960 + overclock + higher voltage, it may go quite positve under load. And the temperatures from probe and mobo's are never to be trusted.


when you say it will go quite positive you mean the cpu temp will go above 0 degrees Fahrenheit ? or above 0 Celcius ? or you mean it will get really hot like above +55C ? or develop condensation or something ?

will it like damage the phasechange unit or cpu or motherboard with the 960 heavy overclocked ? with alot of heatload ?

im gonna be running 1 overclocked saphire radeon 1900xtx toxic with its own built on watercooler and 4 sata hd's, An overclocked 960 (unlocked multiplier if possible) processor, 1 dvdrom and a few lights like 3 or 4 fans. Also a raid 6 pcie controller & 2 or 3 pci cards

So I want to get the best possible PSU for my cpu rail with highest amps and watts I don't care about price. With the asus p5wd2-e premium motherboard the cpu socket is the same between a extreme p4 and non extreme p4 right ?

and i'd like to get the board volt modded by a professional

Gautam
06-23-06, 03:53 PM
I'd expect -10 to -5C evaporator temps myself. The CPU will probably being running at +0 to +5C. Won't harm a fly. Don't let these guys scare you, they won't be content till your proc is running at absolute zero. :p

This (http://store.myaopen.com/psl6850p.html) is just about the best PSU on the market. I have the 700W version and love it. Beware though, it is much larger than your typical supply. IMHO though, the price is actually worth it.

greenmaji
06-23-06, 04:00 PM
He ment above 0C thats it (well most overclocking peps think of temps in C's anyway) And it wont nessarily hurt the unit, but at some point it might not hold load temps (the heat sorce, the overclocked pressler, dual core intel netburst chip) I think thats fairly normal with presslers anyway, its just the limit of your overclock with that particular phase change rig. *edit* long winded way to say what Gautam did :p *edit*

PSU.. if cost and space are not an issue.... a big old Zippy/Emacs is what you want :attn: *edit* Gautam beat me to it and gave a link ;) *edit*

When you mean a professional do you mean someone that is competent in Volt mods or an electrical engineering technician?

Deathknight
06-23-06, 04:18 PM
or develop condensation or something ?


You are going to need to take measures to protect your system from condensation regardless of what temps you are seeing, because they will be below ambient.

The Mach II makes a nice seal using the provided kit, and also comes with a heating element for the back of your motherboard, but IMHO you cannot be too careful(and on the subjet of this heating element, I had one burn out on me, and I am suprised it never caused a fire looking at the damage it did!).

Do some research in this area to ensure your processor and motherboard enjoy a long life :)

Pf.Farnsworth
06-23-06, 04:38 PM
The only real difference between a Mach II and a custom unit (Jinu's in particular) is the refrigerant and evaporator. In fact, the GT actually uses R404A...so there goes the refrigerant difference. A slight charge adjustment and it should come within a few degrees, honestly. If you really need every last degree, an evap change can do it. As it is, -67C unloaded. Hardly enough reason to part with it.

A Pentium D appears as two physical cores to Windows, a Pentium D EE appears as four logical cores.

Seems like Asus might be re-releasing a new version of the P5WD2-E with Conroe support. Either way you probably want to hold off for about a month before purchasing anything.

Not really. First the NF9FX is popular but its not the only good compressor and not the best. NF11FX are a better solution. Evap difference yes. Refrigerant, even with 404a, who said thats great. 402a is where its at. Condenser does make a difference but its dependant on the compressor and the refrigerant, Alot of moded vapos etc have to run their fans on turbo because their small condensers can not cope with the heat. Components arent everything either, layout effects things as well. When you add it all up the performance on a custom unit is alot different.

jinu117
06-23-06, 05:24 PM
Wowowow... Thanks for suggesting my builds here... :)
Here is my views and some tidbits:

#1. My typical unit is built with NF9FX...? mach II GT and mach II just isn't tuned as well as it could be is honestly what I see. And the original seller folding business and passing it back to manufacturer pretty stopped any R&D to improve their product. (Yes based on my testing results, even using same components, it still has room for improvement). Is it worth selling those at discounted rate to acquire custom unit? Maybe not. I get a lot of inquiries for modding, etc and I usuall inform my customer of Mach II GT unit some options. Sell it, make me build one. Send it to me, modify evap and charge (and maybe condenser), or KEEP IT as improvement might not be worth all the money. In real practical term, you wonder how much that 5-10c will help you on overclocking... It's like getting that top end to extreme top end part game. You could get top end non FX chip for almost half of FX chip kind of game... real performance diff being marginal quite often.

#2. Yes I've been eyeing NF11FX. I have some in order so customer wanting upgrade on compressor vs my standard NF9FX can have the option. It will be very good for current crop of CPU but I am not sure how advantageous it will be on things like conroe... Maybe we will get conroe hot enough to warrant the upgrade being worth the extra money... (nf11fx is slightly noiser than nf9fx which is out right quite for phase world and draws more current... also need fan on condenser running tad faster).

#3. Vapo LS uses NF5.5CLX which is even smaller. Bit noiser due to it being such a workhorse for it's size and it cools in par with stock Mach II GT... with lesser of compressor per say. It is tuned just about as good as it could be without the compressor swap. GT could use some good tuning but it usually becomes just more effective to swap evap and condenser while doing that.

#4. No one gas is superior. R404 will be better choice for high heatload low noise system (very high heatload though) given condensing limitation at times.
R402a will be better choice if you have more condensing (be it by fan flow or size of condenser or what not).
R507 sits in middle and could be good production run gas as it doesn't separate as easy... performance sits right in middle too. Gas differences here we are talking only about 1-3c difference each.... better to go by safety margin than absolute temp :)

NoL
06-23-06, 07:27 PM
And don't forget r410a if you have a much larger condenser.
R402a is not the be all end all, even r22 is still quite a nice affordable refrigerant.
GPU's dont need as much (or at least until the newest ones) and r22 or r134a is quite nice.

inkfx
06-23-06, 09:11 PM
Definatly go for the dual core you will see a lot more performance out of it versus the 670.

phlow
06-26-06, 01:37 PM
One more question, should I voltage mod the cpu, or anything else on the motherboard ? If I volt mod the cpu does that mean that the voltage select in the bios are no longer accurate so that each incement is now higher ? how do I know exactly how much volts are being given to the cpu after a volt mod

I'm not sure which volt mods I need I have corsair xms2 ddr2 8500 twinx so I don't think I need to volt mod my ram but maybe cpu and i heard there's another voltmod too ?

I'd like to hire someone to do the volt mods and put an active fan cooler on the nothbridge with a copper heatsink, although I don't know how big of a fan I should get since the cpu it gonna be phasechange cooler or are they unrelaed ? and maybe put heatsinks on caps around cpu if required ?

Oh one other thing where can I find a pentium d 960 with unlocked multiplier ?

greenmaji
06-26-06, 06:46 PM
You use a digital multi meter at the read points on the motherboard. (these are pointed out in the Vmod guide for that particular mobo :thup: )

More voltage for your ram would be a Vdimm mod on the motherboard.
-Ross pushed 575 cas3 with that ram, and more volts is what it takes to be that extream :attn:
More voltage for the CPU is the Vcore mod
-When you have subambiant temps you can clock higher but you'll need more Vcore to get there then mobo's alow (they assume at best you have watercooling ;) )
The mod that gets rid of the Vcore droop on heavy loads is a Vdroop mod.

Services are handled though the classifieds section of this fourm..
you dont have access to that section just yet and this link explains why :) (well and then some lol)
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=203858

The NB fan I linked to in post #2 should be suffecent for most anyones needs IMHO If not overkill :attn:

The retail extream edition Intel CPU's have an unlocked multi otherwise it would have to be an enginering sample and this wouldn't be the place to aquire one of those (That would only be possible if Intel released engeering samples of the CPU your intresed in) IIRC the 960D didnt have ES's and isn't a EE model so if your REALLY intresed in unlocked multi go with a different model (IMHO, the 960 is a garenteed C1 stepping, your cooling shouldnt be able to keep up with how high it will clock)