WEP question regarding comments from certain IT people

[CreePinG_DeatH]

I was under the impression that WEP encryption was weak, but better than nothing. I have talked with a few network security techs who say that if WEP is setup correctly, then there shouldn't be anything to worry about.

I never found out what they meant by correctly, but I assumed it was more involved than using 128bit, with MAC filtering, and SSID broadcast off. Assuming the network guys were correct, what additional steps should be taken? Please keep in mind that this was regarding a business setup, and a VPN wasn't discussed as part of the solution. Ideas?

[gorilly]

I was under the impression that WEP encryption was weak, but better than nothing. I have talked with a few network security techs who say that if WEP is setup correctly, then there shouldn't be anything to worry about.

I never found out what they meant by correctly, but I assumed it was more involved than using 128bit, with MAC filtering, and SSID broadcast off. Assuming the network guys were correct, what additional steps should be taken? Please keep in mind that this was regarding a business setup, and a VPN wasn't discussed as part of the solution. Ideas?


do you not have the option for WPA-PSK?

surely WPA-PAK + MAC Contol + Limited IP Addresses (via DHCP) + SSID Off is fine...?

[CreePinG_DeatH]

I do have a new router with those encryption options, but I was asking if WEP can be made just as secure for those who have older routers.

[gorilly]

I do have a new router with those encryption options, but I was asking if WEP can be made just as secure for those who have older routers.


you might find this article interesting

http://www.netcraftsmen.net/welcher/papers/wlansec01.html

[klingens]

WEP can never ever be secure since you can easily crack it if you have ~10GB of encrypted traffic. At that point you can listen in on all the traffic.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wired_Equivalent_Privacy#Flaws

[KillrBuckeye]

WEP can never ever be secure since you can easily crack it if you have ~10GB of encrypted traffic. At that point you can listen in on all the traffic.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wired_Equivalent_Privacy#FlawsWow, I think someone would have to be camping outside my house for about a year to capture 10GB of wireless traffic given how slow my wireless B connection is. :) My neighbors don't strike me as being technically savvy, either, considering they were all running unsecured wireless networks up until recently.

[CreePinG_DeatH]

Sweet reading. So if you need about 10GB of traffic to analyze, and assuming the WEP protected user is relatively unproductive, could someone just send 10gb worth of data and analyze the results?

[klingens]

No, you send data until the error messages from the AP, answering this data, are 10GB.
So KillrBuckeye: if you let your AP on overnight by accident and some unmarked van with blakc windows is parking outside that night: be afraid, be very afraid.

[CreePinG_DeatH]

Ok, so it would take some time to gather enough data - unless you could somehow split the data collection across multiple computers. But still be easily accomplished.

Would an automated key-changing program/schedule be futile or ineffective altogether?

[KillrBuckeye]

No, you send data until the error messages from the AP, answering this data, are 10GB.
So KillrBuckeye: if you let your AP on overnight by accident and some unmarked van with blakc windows is parking outside that night: be afraid, be very afraid.:eek: LOL. My router is on 24/7, so I guess I'm vulnerable. I think it's time to upgrade my router to something with WPA.

[klingens]

Not futile but it would be very hard to do: you couldn't use wireless to distribute the new keys. So you need to manually hand out a new key for all clients. Just not practicable.

[CreePinG_DeatH]

This might be a long shot, but do you have any guess whatsoever how much each error messages would be in size?

would be like 64bytes or something?

[KillrBuckeye]

This might be a long shot, but do you have any guess whatsoever how much each error messages would be in size?

would be like 64bytes or something?Are you trying to hack my WEP encryption man?! :mad: Is that you sitting in the parked car outside my house with a laptop?

[klingens]

His name is Creeping_death, so just take an educated guess :)

Since I have no wireless card, I don't, sorry.

[CreePinG_DeatH]

Actually I am trying to understand the severity of the situation. The "WEP-if-properly-configured" motto of the IT guys got me curious, especially when one of the guys is setting up my parents' business network. That is actually a moot point as they will not have wireless, but then I turned the focus towards the home network. I was trying to see if I should finally unwrap the wrt54gl in the basement and add some 3rd party firmware for poops-n-giggles or wait until my mom moves her home office stuff upstairs (and save me some time setting this crap up.)

10737418240 bytes in 10gb
I'll guess 32bytes in an error message
I'll guess 2.5s roundtrip time so...
24 trips/min, 1440/hour, 34560/day, 12614400/year
so based on those calculations, it would take 26 years. Of course there are some serious flaws and this is completely speculative, but gives something of a picture. Things get screwed when 2.5s is actually 25ms which might be closer.

I'll have to wait until next summer to play with the wireless because I wouldn't be allowed to do that at school.

And my name is a Metallica reference Klingens, not a script kiddie Ub3R H4x0R nick name. I had it for a long time and it just followed me.

[KillrBuckeye]

And my name is a Metallica reference Klingens, not a script kiddie Ub3R H4x0R nick name. I had it for a long time and it just followed me.
"Die! By my hand! I creep across the land!" Good tune.

I'm not very worried about anybody trying to crack my WEP. I mean, somebody would have to have a good reason for trying to do so, and it's not like I'm hiding anything. Are you hiding something Creeping Death? :)

[klingens]

more like 2.5 MILLIseconds roundtrip at most. Do you have a ping of 2500ms latency when using wireless?
That brings the traffic to 45MB per hour per wireless network card. You can have lots of cards on a single wardrive machine to further multiplying that figure.
As for what those "techs" (and I use that term loosely) said: they lied. Either cause they don't know any better or they lied knowingly. WEP is insecure for anything. Best form of security for wireless is IPSec, period. If you need to protect the network itself too, WPA. Without PSK but with the other precautions like MAC filtering etc even if those are almost useless: MAC addresses can be sniffed for example.

However as always in security it's a matter of tradeoffs: against what attacks and against who do you want to protect yourself and at what cost (monetary and convenience). For most wireless setups, all you need is a neighbour with a less protected network than yours...

And my name is a Metallica reference Klingens, not a script kiddie Ub3R H4x0R nick name. I had it for a long time and it just followed me.


I didn't mean it as a script kiddie reference, more like a crazy hitman one :)
And you must agree, taking a name from a song with "Die! By my hand! I creep across the land!" is a bit worrisome.
Everyone knows those heavy metal freaks are all violent pinko commies anyways who encode satanic messages in their songs.

[KillrBuckeye]

And you must agree, taking a name from a song with "Die! By my hand! I creep across the land!" is a bit worrisome.
Everyone knows those heavy metal freaks are all violent pinko commies anyways who encode satanic messages in their songs.Hehehe. I know you're just kidding, but that song is actually about events described in the Bible (when first-born sons were killed in Egypt?).

[CreePinG_DeatH]

Hehehe. I know you're just kidding, but that song is actually about events described in the Bible (when first-born sons were killed in Egypt?).

Doesn't really matter. Words in songs to me only matter to the extent that the audible harmony is synchronized better than my dad singing. We can always draw parallels to some specific lyric, but when we do so we are implying we can read the minds of the artists. Furthermore, we continue to assume the reasons behind such lyrics are limited to one idea. I'd rather just listen to music instead of trying philisophical disect and sociologically justify my music. Actually, I'm sure others would prefer that I didn't do that to them at least lol.

In regards to my name, keep in mind I started it when I was 12 (14 years ago). Actually my younger brother wanted to use it first for Daggerfall: Elder Scrolls, but that only allowed 8 character names I think. He lost touch with gaming and I just "adopted" it. Oh well.

[FeuerFrei]

MAC filtering etc even if those are almost useless: MAC addresses can be sniffed for example.

Yeah, and they can be cloned, but it's one more defense against script-kiddies...