Duron (any mhz) without a fan - no dice?

[JSPuonti]

I'm in the planning stages for a "mediaterminal" of a PC, ment for playing DVDs, MP3s and videofiles, recording TV shows and watching TV with features not present in some "regular" TVs (preview X channels, picture in picture, etc - stuff that TV tuner cards give you). For this purpose, raw CPU speed is of little concern, and as such I'd rather buy a CPU that needs as little active cooling as possible, but can still decode DVDs (with PowerDVD and Matrox G550) and encode DivX / MPEG4 on the fly at VHS resolutions without compression at larger resolutions (recording TV shows). Clearly something a 700-or-so mhz CPU should be able to do just fine.

Now then, the issue is of noise and heat. Since this thing is not supposed to sound like a jet engine and space is limited (I'm going for a microATX motherboard and a desktop case just large enough to fit those low-profile cards, one CD drive and whatnot - the terminal's supposed to LOOK good, too), cooling and sound proofing will be almost non-existant. What I'd like to know is wether a Socket A Duron fitting for my needs can be run safely without active cooling (a fan) or not.

Alternatively, if someone here knows for sure that a suitable FCPGA or PPGA Celeron CPU would be cooler to run (and that an AGP slot equipped motherboard exists for it), I'd appreciate that info aswell.

That's about it. Thanks for all the help you can dispence :)

[SickBoy]

I'm sure a Celemine would be an excellent candidate... maybe a 1.2 Celeron with the bus underclocked to 66 MHz... (800 MHz) and the voltage lowered.

AMD CPU's just run too hot for a fanless application, unless you can get your hands on a mobile CPU and somehow make it run on a regular mobo.

[JSPuonti]

Thanks for that information - I know next to nothing about AMD's CPUs, and the answer to the question "can I run this CPU without a fan?" is hard to find from the net. People don't seem to be interested in wether a CPU can be ran without a fan or not :)

If anyone else has any insight into the matter, it's still welcome.

[Fightingpiper]

The only fan I have on my OCed Duran is the stock Heatsink fan and it runs at 43-44C at full load in a mid tower.

[Fiz]

I have seen a duron run without a fan but even at the most modest of settings (500 MHZ) the thing was still in the 65-70' range. If you want something that yo can run without a fan, you may want to look into........a Cyrix. I know, Iknow, it's a Cyrix, but they run amazingly cool, I read about on tthat can run without a HSF, I think it was at viahardware.com.

Fiz

[RyE]

Get a via c3. They are cool and they are made by via! In the video test, an 800mhz ran without a heatsink OR fan for over 24 hours running q3.

[Mr B]

Good call on the Cyrix!

I thought those could run w/o a HSF.... I wonder how stable an overclock you could get with a small HSF (like a coolermaster w/ a 60x60x10mm fan)?

Just a thought....

[nihili]

Another option is to use a very quiet fan. If you use a fan with a dBa rating of less than 30, it should be sufficiently quiet. My guess is you'll need some time of fan for a Duron, but I'm sure you could set it up with one that would be "silent". Especially if you drop your core voltage just a touch.

nihili

[M@€$†®Ö™]

I ran a Duron 650 mhz @ 500mhz and 1.1v with no fan and had no issues with heat as the HS never got over 48 degrees celsius under full load. I did have good case cooling and that allowed sufficient airflow over the HS. And I ran it for a few weeks like that with no problems. I used windows media player and played games and all that. It was a exercise to see how quiet I could get the puter and I have to admit you could hear my breathing over it sometimes. If you need more info lemme know. Also I do not take any responsibility in you trying this. So take this info as you wish :) As running a CPU without a Fan can be harmful to your CPU's health. The Mobo I used to test this was a Abit KT7A-Raid.

Maestro

[Hurk]

Anyone ever heard of the Silverado HeatSink and Fan? It's virtually Noiseless and Heat is pretty much eliminated with most Duron's and Athlon's.

Silverado Heatsink and Fan (http://www.chillblast.com/reviews/silverado.htm)

[Oni]

Originally posted by RyE
Get a via c3. They are cool and they are made by via! In the video test, an 800mhz ran without a heatsink OR fan for over 24 hours running q3.

I didn't even know that Cyrix still MADE processors!! :eek:

[JSPuonti]

Thanks again to everyone for the ideas. I went back to the drawing board, looked hard at the PC cases I could find from local stores, and decided that there simply isn't a PC case suitable for my project available through them. What I'm doing right now is working on a custom design, sketching down ideas and such, for building a 26x26x26 centimeter "cube" case. This would allow for better case AND CPU cooling, so hopefully (if this project gets up to speed), I can actually make use of some of your cooling ideas.

However, since this is the first AMD system I'm building / considering here, I'd like to double-check some very basic issues with you guys. Let me know if my assumptions below are right, or if it's a question, what the answer is:

I'm planning on using the ASUS A7V133-VM 24.4 x 24.5 cm microATX motherboard, because it offers an AGP slot, an integrated LAN controller, a good amount of PCI slots (3) and a satisfactory amount of DIMM slots (2, max 1Gb RAM).

1) From what I can see, this motherboard can be used for Duron, Athlon and Thunderbird CPUs (up to 1.4Ghz), but not for Athlon XP CPUs. Is this correct?

2) If we take a 1 or 1.2Ghz (or closest available speed) Duron, Athlon or Thunderbird CPU, which one of these runs the coolest? (I know they'll all fry without cooling, but still - which one requires the least cooling?)

3) I'm planning on eventually installing an ATI AIW Radeon 8500 display adapter into this system, and run it in Windows XP - does anyone see problems with the combination of the ASUS MB, the AMD CPU, Windows XP and the ATI 8500? (the reason for getting the AIW 8500 is simple - this is supposed to be a media terminal, so it better come with everything I need for watching TV, DVDs, videofiles, etc. And it comes with a neat RF remote to boot)

4) Although it takes a considerable amount of space inside the case, I think I can squeeze an Enermax 350W "silent" ATX PSU into this case. My view of Enermax PSUs is that they are quality stuff, so do I have any reason to worry about how an AMD CPU will work with this PSU?

That's about it for now.. once again thank you for any advice. :)

[nihili]

The Duron will run coolest. It will also be the slowest, but you've said that speed isn't a primary concern. At 1 gig and higher the Durons have the newer Morgan core which runs cooler than the old core.

Enermax is a good quality PSU, and 350 watts should be ample for that setup.

nihili

[SickBoy]

a Duron 1.2 GHz would be an excellent processor to use for this. I'd say unlock it and clock it down to 600-700 MHz or so, and lower the core voltage. I'd also say to pick up a Thermalright SK6 and find a really quiet fan - like the Sanyo Denki ultra quiet 60 MM. Either that, or a low RPM 80 MM fan on a FOP heatsink would work pretty well I'd think.

Sounds like a neat project - 1 other thing though - Shuttle makes a computer just for such an application. the SV24. I know it uses a Celeron/P3, but with the correct choice of processor and fan it would be nice and quiet. Integrated NIC, sound and video, and 1 PCI slot to boot. I know you're pretty set but for anyone else considering.....

SB

[Oni]

Originally posted by SickBoy
Either that, or a low RPM 80 MM fan on a FOP heatsink would work pretty well I'd think.

Thats what I use. Nice and quiet!

[donny_paycheck]

Yeah, those socket 370 VIA C3's are pretty funky....Via is what used to be Cyrix, btw...

[Dagon]

My 1.4 ran fanless (no case fans either) on my swiftech for almost 2 hours (ooops!) while watching a DVD. Surpisingly no crashes...

Temps were 89+!!!! C , so I guess it's possible.

I'd suggest you try it safe though and get one of the big boys... a Alpha 8045 or switech MX462 with a low flow 80mm like a Panaflow L1. It might very well be possible to run one of those 2 without a fan, but better start safe first.

I would NOT even try a fanless setup with a SK6 though, it's too small and very cfm dependant.

[Nagorak]

I really think that you are making a mistake by going with a slow CPU in this situation. It might seem like you don't need a fast CPU and you're mostly right for what you want to do.

The problem is, as soon as video encoding enters the picture, it throws everything for a loop. As far as VHS resolution, I guess you are refering to something like 320*240 or less (the actual computer resolution of various media is kind of open to interpretation). If you really want to run fanless that means you want a 500 MHz Duron, or maybe a 666-700 MHz Celeron (and even that might be a stretch). I'm honestly not sure a CPU of that speed will be able to encode to MPEG-4 even at that low resolution without dropping frames.

Assuming that works though, recording to uncompressed AVI at "higher resolutions" is a real pain in the butt. Uncompressed AVI files are just horrendously huge. There are some lossless, low CPU use codecs such as Huffman YUV that you can use. I believe Huffman YUV compresses between 2:1 and 5:1 (I honestly can't remember at the moment). The thing is, even with that amount of compression, it's only practical if you have a HUGE hard drive: we're talking like 40-80 GBs here, 40 being the absolute minimum...

This is all from personal experience... The trick is balancing out power vs quietness. The truth is, the box does NOT have to be silent. Just because you can hear the computer running, doesn't mean it is going to distract you when a movie is playing. The sound from the movie will drown out a quiet computer. Keep in mind that even televisions make noise-- that annoying high pitched sound the tube makes-- but you usually don't notice it when you are watching TV.

I mistakenly tried to make an ultra-quiet computer at first myself and ended up, rather ironically, having the DVD-Drive being a lot louder than the rest of the system. Of course the television whine was louder still... In that case, obviously, you have some headroom to increase the noise level of the computer without really having it become an annoyance.

Anyway, what I suggest is going with an Athlon XP processor because they run cooler than standard Athlons. Probably the higher-end Athlon XPs will not really be worth it due to their higher price and also their higher heat level. So something in the 1500+ (1.33 GHz) to 1700+ (1.47 GHz) range. Then buy a heatsink that accepts an 80mm fan. The Globalwin WBK38 or FOP32/38 actually works well for this, because although they accept 60 mm fans by default, they can be "hacked" to accept an 80 mm fan easily. The last step would be buying a quiet 80mm fan such as this one: http://2cooltek.safeshopper.com/25/204.htm?736

It might also be good to consider buying a quiet 120 mm intake fan to keep the case cool. Don't worry about having exhaust fans, just make sure there are plenty of places for the air to exhaust out the back (leave the PCI slots open, etc). If the 120mm is too loud, just use the 7 volt trick to quiet it down. Ideally place the intake fan so it blows directly down onto the heatsink, so the processor is kept cool.

This way you end up somewhere in the middle between a totally silent computer and a super-ventillated case. What you get is a quiet computer that still has pretty good cooling.

Anyway, that's just my take on it...do as you will.

[JSPuonti]

nihili,

Yes, getting the fastest processor around is not my main goal. Since most TV tuner cards (including the AIW Radeon 8500, AFAIK) also compress MPEG2 on the fly (in hardware) the CPU doesn't have to be a number crunching monster in order for me to be able to record stuff from TV. As SickBoy suggested, I could get a 1.2Ghz Duron and underclock it to keep things cooler and quieter (although I doubt that I need to underclock it with this case - it was more of a problem with the desktop box).

SickBoy,

I read of the SV24 and in part it contributed to my decision to see if I could put all this hardware into a cube-shaped case. There are differences between the SV24 and my project, though (apart from the CPU choices):

- The SV24 does not have an AGP slot, so I couldn't use the AIW Radeon 8500 in it

- The SV24 is limited to a "generic" 150W power supply (I very much doubt it's a "silent" PSU)

- The SV24 has one 5.25" and two 3.5" bays, whereas I'm (atleast for now) planning to put in two 5.25" bays and possibly one 3.5" bay. One 5.25" bay will be used for either a DVD-ROM or a DVD / RW combo drive and if I put in another 5.25" bay, then the harddrive will be slipped into one of those "no-vibe" 5.25" HDD racks and put into the other 5.25" bay, and a disk drive will go into the 3.5" bay. If there's just one of each bays, then I'll ditch the disk drive and put the HDD into the 3.5" instead

- The SV24 has only one PCI slot, whereas my project has 3. If I'm unable to get the A7V133-VM with the integrated LAN module (they aren't available here right now - I had to ASK a store if they could get them for me), then I'll have to use a PCI LAN card. One PCI slot will be used for the sound card (propably an SBLive!)

- The SV24 is a FlexATX form-factor device, whereas mine is microATX (larger). The SV24 certainly is a neater, tighter package, but right now that can only be achieved by cutting features

Basically the idea of this project (once again, IF it gets anywhere) is to try and build a good-looking, "small" computer, but one that's every bit as usable as any regular computer (with digital audio out, 5.1 sound, excellent 3D hardware, etc, etc). It should look good in the living room, but not at the expense of "users" having to wait for the thing to actually do stuff they want it to do. If only there was a FlexATX motherboard with one AGP slot, one PCI slot and integrated LAN, I'd use that instead and try to squeeze the system into an even smaller case. But alas, I haven't found such a board yet.

Another thing a friend of mine suggested was to buy something he calls a "flect" (not sure how that's pronounced). It's basically a very large (15-20cm) case fan which can be easily modded to run at very low RPMs, while still obviously moving a lot of air through. I've left enough space for this in the current design for the cube case, and using this kind of a fan might actually get the air moving inside the case sufficiently enough to keep other cooling methods to a minimum. There's two places for this fan in the case, one of which would blow air directly over the "upper" part of the motherboard, including the CPU.

Keep those ideas coming, especially if anyone knows of problems between AMD CPUs / Windows XP / ASUS MB / ATI AIW Radeon 8500.

[JSPuonti]

Nagorak (for some reason I didn't see your reply when I started writing mine),

As I briefly mentioned in my previous reply, TV tuner cards are usually able to record MPEG2 in hardware. This would clearly cover my need for recording stuff from the TV at VHS (yes, approximately 320x240) or native PAL resolutions. Although, just to be on the safe side, I propably should keep the 1.2Ghz Duron at that speed, instead of underclocking it - right?

And although I'd love to get an Athlon XP CPU (the benefits you already mentioned), I haven't been able to find a microATX form-factor Athlon XP motherboard. If there is one around, it should also come with an AGP slot, a couple of PCI slots and integrated LAN controller. Have you seen any?

[WyrmMaster]

Personally i wouldnt limit myself to the smaller mobo. I dont see a reason not to go with a standard ATX board. Also you dont need to have NO fans to have a quite computer. As Nagorak said, the DVD drive and harddrive also make noise. Thers no point in making it so quite that you can hear them. Go with two or three nice quite fans and it will be cool AND quite.

[JSPuonti]

WyrmMaster,

As I've propably mention already the goal of this project is to build a small "media terminal", now, while there is definately the possibility that I never finish this project, it's a FACT that I can NEVER reach the goal of this project if I go with an ATX board. ATX boards aren't small. You can't fit it into a 26x26x26 cm case. :/ If I was building myself a regular computer, I'd never even consider microATX motherboards.

So in short: I can see where you're coming from and you're right - for a NORMAL system an ATX board would be more desireable. But for this project microATX is the way to go.

And as I pointed out in my latest replies (not sure if you saw them before replying yourself), this case will have room for both case and CPU cooling (which my original plan did not have). Still, even if the DVD ROM and HDD will make sound, there's no reason to NOT get those parts for the computer that are quieter than "generic" ones.

- I could go with a generic PSU, but I might just as well pay a little bit extra and get a "silent" PSU from Enermax. Sure, it's not completely silent, but it's a few dB off the total volume

- I could just buy any large HDD and be happy with it, but why not go for some of the quieter models from Samsung or Fujitsu?

- I could just get some 120mm fans and stick them to the side of the case, but why not get a 150-180mm fan, slow it down and get the same effect with less noise?

It's not that I'm trying to build an absolutely silent PC - it's just that I'm putting more weight on quieter components than I would in a "normal" desktop system. :)

[Maximus Nickus]

You could buy a 80mm > 60mm fan adapter or try experimenting with watercooling. Sure the radiator will have to be cooled but u can use silent fans, although I think its a bit stupid...
I wold buy a 1.2 Duron and then put the vcore down a notch (leaving the cpu speed) and use one of the £60 hsf's www.overclockingstore.co.uk and a really quite fan, the £60 hsf is so heavy and big @ full load wif a normal 80mm fan it was 33C on a 1.3gig system wif no oc'ing, so you vould try that and you may not have to have a fan, I owuld reccomend getting a few pci slot blowers as they are silent and will remove the hot air.
Good Luck...:D

[Toysrme]

This is why god<or insert deity> allows via cpu's to still exist on this EARTH!!!

Cyrix!!! (shut-up, I built one for $250 last semister and it plays dvd's and mp3's all day long... no noise from NO moving parts{not even the psu})

hell... before the good 'ole PII350@464 became a server at the house, it did dvd duty LoL!

[donny_paycheck]

It's a very noteworthy point about the Via Ezra socket 370 CPUs that they dissipate 25- watts and run with only a passive heat sink. I know you're not intending to get a socket 370 board from what you've written but this is the one redeeming feature of the Via CPU in my opinion. It has a tiny cache and is pretty slow (833mhz) but it uses a fanless heat sink at least.

[Toysrme]

actually i just wrote a 5 page essay on cyrix tv boxes and their PRO's/ CON'S , but scrapped it after i read he wanted to encode TV programs heh...

[Toysrme]

yes ;) i like my lil via box LoL 667... testing it with this new DD sertup i got in this XP box(don't ask i'm in college and we experiment with alotta stuff) it would max around 933 heh

anywho...

passive heatsink, custom case, hacked psu(i.e. fan taken out), HD is wedged TIGHTLY with very, very soft foam. it's as close as i can get to silent entertainment with a $250 budget(and this was LAST semister... had i not f'ed up one case in the process it'd have only been $200 heh)

the bad side of the via's is that 600 duron would spank it or celeron over 650any core) will spank and core via puts out for the next year.

(i don't DIS any maker, intel, amd, via... niether should yall... competition is good for the markets... i.e. prices and speed <g>)


---------------------------------------------------
>"recording TV shows and watching TV with features not present >in some "regular" TVs (preview X channels, picture in picture, >etc - stuff that TV tuner cards give you)."


I'm gonna have to disagree with recording tv shows...
now i've never done it(keep in mind)
but that will take come cpu horsepower. unless video capture cards have lept years in technology in the past month and no longer need a CPU... cpu speed is life in encoding

and yes i realize you said un compressed, and we're talking low res, but add sound and having good quality. i think a duron or celron at 1000 would have trouble doing it in real time...

remember, unlike ripping a dvd. TV only get's sent one chance to record. the dvd can be accessed as many, and at whatever speed is nessasary(slow for hard spots and fast for easy)

honestly, i think you should by a VCR for recording and use the comp for the rest...

and if you're doing that ;) grab a cyrix on a micro-atx socket360! they're cheap! they're small! they work! (just don't expect much for gaming LoL!)

[Toysrme]

It's 5a.m. and I'm sorry for the mistakes above. I SWEAR if anyone can comprehind what I've stated, I DO make intelligent and well thought out remarks ;)

[Toysrme]

Sorry for flooding... but I'd like to make one short comment on the fan adapters...

After being fed up with a Delta@7k, I bought an 80mm adapter.

KNOWING that you need more CFM because of lower pressure(see other posts) to get even the same results. Well I did... and performanced dropped enough to where the 7k went back on and a 92mm adaptor was bought with an even faster cfm fan.

Keep in mind this is a dorm in alabama(yes we have duel t3 lines at UA...) and having moved in during summer and it being very hot down here... It just wasn't getting the job done!

(Back on story)

The 92mm gave me the exact same performance of the 7k delta... Unfortunatly I can't live with that... The 7k delta is very high pitched noise... Which I dislike.

The large cfm fans move tons of loud air... Which I dislike. (remember my head is exactly three feet from this comp while sleeping and must stay on 24/7, also note that dosn't factor in... Those damn delta's are all louder than I'd put up with under ANY circumstance)


Anywho... If you're going to the trouble of buying quite drives/PSU.
I STILL say buy a cyrix and leave off encoding!

One last point... Remember when case choosing that the adaptors will ALL add an inch give or take to the hight of the heatsink, and that a taller than normal fan will also be used.

Sorry for flooding, but I hope I can help.

P.S.

If my dad's duron750 didn't have a fan... It would explode in 10 seconds

(I know I know I won't shut up)

I would NOT use even my cyrix without a heatsink for long periods of time... It's asking for trouble... They may run, but they run on the brink. Atleast mine dose(another failed tests)

And I read somewhere that the AIW radeon 8500 puts out tons of heat. So ya better have atleast some case cooling(yes i read you big 150/180 case fan thing, just stating what I think)
(yes if I were encoding I'd pick that card 2;)

[Maximus Nickus]

Who Ressurected this???

I thought the gremlins would have had it by now!! :D

[h2sammo]

ressurect!

[OC-Master]

I'd take a 1.2GHz Duron, and then underclock it to 500MHz and use 1.40V. There would be no need for a CPU fan here, just a large HS like the AX-7.

Underclocking this thing is simple, unlock the CPU and then drop the multiplier down to 5X


DS-Master

[Ferg]

Yea definatly go with the VIA C3 1 Gig. There is an article about it at Toms hardware and it talks about decoding DVDs i think. It said that the 1 gig did it flawlessly where as the 933 did not. And, best of all it can be passivly cooled. It uses some ridicously wattage, like 13 i think.

[sangram]

Bump.

OK here's what I'd do.

For a mobo I'd use the Asus A7N266-VM. this uses NForce 220 chipset, AFAIK you get a version with Dolby sound and 5.1 decoding on-board, and supports the XP/Ath/Duron. Runs far superior to the A7V133-VM, uses DDR and has a nice GF2MX onboard (though it can't match the MX, on its own, it's bound to be better than the ProSavage). You get three nice PCI slots for the LAN, I'm not sure there is a LAN version available... Couple it with a Seagate ATA IV barracuda: I can't hear my drives.

For CPU, I would use a reasonably easy-to cool Athlon XP, like a 1500 or something, and run it at 100 FSB and low mult. 1 gig should be fine. Dump a nice AX-7, SK6 or other ridiculously large HS on it, and couple it with a very low power, low noise fan. Or a Zalman cooler.

I might try leaving the PSU cover open and put in a nice 80 mm fan for cooling duty, and orient the PSU so that it also helps to cool the CPU HSF.

At the end of this, the optical drives would probably be the loudest part of the system.

Sang

[Greg M]

I believe the comments above were referring to the new C3, not the old Cyrix CPU's.

Typical power consumption is 5.7 watts.
http://www.via.com.tw/en/viac3/c3.jsp

You could use a Duron with a Thermalright AX-7 and an Enermax 80mm variable speed fan. You can find a sweet spot with the fan that will keep the CPU plenty cool while being extremely quiet, and the PSU will more than likely be the loudest component.

[OC-Master]

My PSU fan runs under 1000RPM and you cannot hear it at all. Its a US Can 300W powersupply which runs everything I have like a breeze.

The fan runs so slow that a fly can fly into the fan and make it out it just fine without loosing even a single wing. Then again, the fly could probally even stop the fan for a sec.

The fan is soo weak and quiet that if I blow on it, it stops dead in its tracks LOL

But this is useless since my 6 80mm High Speed case fans drown out the nice quiet PSU.


DS-Master