Celeron-T now or Northwood later?

[Dark Illusion]

Since the Celeron will be around till at least the end of next year I could break in and go for a 1.2ghz now. I'll be getting a SuperMicro P3DE6-G (http://supermicro.com/PRODUCT/MotherBoards/RCC_HE_SL/SUPER%20P3TDE6%20SPECIFICATIONS.htm) . Yes it only takes registered ECC ram. Just Mobo and 1GB Ram will cost me ~$650 1.2 celeron is ~$100 Vidcard will be ATi 8500/or whatevr is more recent. ~$230. Everything else will be moved from my old system..as I can't find anything better to upgrade from=) So that's ~$1000 for a new gee-whiz bang and flash almost top-of-the-line sytem.

Come on, admit it. You'd all like to see how a server system does compared to desktop level=) I'm willing to bet AGP drivers will be teh sucks. Increased bandwidth won't do anything as the Celeron is maxed w/ PC133 sd-ram already. Then again, I'll be using this mostly as a host for my CS LAN/music/movie server that feeds the rest of the house. If it performs better than my dual 800's then I'll make 800's the server and use this as a main rig. Doesn't matter, I plan on watercooling and modding a glass table for a case from this sucker. Gonna be big project=)

Or, I can sit be a good boy and wait for the Northwoods. I'll also be waiting for a non-Rambust chipset. Don't like what they were doing earlier and so refuse to buy them. Could care less about the price.

I'll be needing a 64 pci slot for my scsi raid..laying around somewhere. Also onboard scsi for my CD/DVD/CDRW so that I don't have to buy another crazy expensive adaptor.

I think I've had too much to drink last night. But that car bump incident only costs me $2K. I have $3K left over am *so* happi right now=D What you think? $1K for new comp. $2K for that SGI 1600SW w/ multi-adaptor. (I think anyone considering LCD should have a look see at the 1600SW) Why buy top quality computer components then skim on your monitor? Your monitor probably is the one thing that lasts the longest and can be reused over and over again.


edit: wow..more woozed than I thought. barely make sense. speeling grammar checks=)

[Pinky]

Celeron 1.2 -- Yes

Devil's water -- No

[Yodums]

I agree with Pinky.

[jazztrumpet216]

The Celeron 1.2 is essencially a Pentium III in disguise... since they made it with an 8 way cache and some other neat stuff PIII's had and older Celerons didn't.

The Northwoods are supposed to be better than the current Willamettes, and light-years better than the old-time P4s. I also wouldn't go with anything but Rambus... I also disagree with some of their tactics but I wouldn't cripple my P4 with SDRAM or even DDR... neither is made for the P4's 400 Mhz system bus.

Not that I'd go with the P4 over the Celeron...:D

[Dark Illusion]

Yea but the problem I have w/ current PIV boards are:

Its 478-pin - no onboard scsi, it uses rambust, no 64bit pci slots for my raid adaptor, has VIA somewhere on it, mix and match any of the mentioned=)

Its 428 pin - obsolete w/in the next couple months.

Its 602(or whatevr)pin - well I don't kno' how much these go for but I bet they have a premium just for being SMP capable. Dunno the story about later upgrades either.

Now the Cualatin boards on the other hand has all of these. It'll also be around till at least the end of next year as Intels roadmap says. I won't make a decision till x-mas anyhow. I just wanted input on this.

[Mike360000]

Well I would say that the Northwood cpus will be much better than the Willamettes, it will have a 512 in chip cache for one thing, plus more streamlined instruction sets, as well as newer and better stepping. But has everyone considered or thought about how much Intel will price these cpus at when introduced? Knowing Intel you won't begin to get one of these Northwood cpus for less than 500 bux! And you possible could hold on to that statement for the next 6 months after Northwood's introduction. I'd be willing to bet that the cheapest Northwood cpu available for vendor sale will be over 450 bux next Christmas!

As for the RAMBUS issue, I think or thought I explained that and made it perfectly clear in my other threads; RAMBUS DOES NOT help any or only a few programs right now, and the situation isn't going to change anytime soon. You can use RAMBUS all you want and say all the good things about it you want, it doesn't change the fact that you can't get anywhere near the full potential from it in normal everyday use, or even in most cases, in above average use. Maybe one could benefit from it a little in editing programs utilizing very high end video and or sound, and that's about it.

Also note, with the intro of Intels DDR solution for the P4, after the first of the year, Intel will use 333mhz DDR ram and not 266.

So Dark Illusion, I'd say in your case, go the Celery route and oc it to about 1.6 ghz. I've been reading that's a common oc to expect from a 1.2 ghz Celery SDRAM will be in the ballpark to the DDR ram when oc'ed on a good mobo.

Cheers,
Mike Lamb

[funnyperson1]

id say go with a 1.2 celly on an ST6 and overclock it to 1.6, then in a year or two upgrade to a Northwood, i agree with Mike, they will be 500$+ depending on what kinda heat AMD brings.....also the performance gap between DDR and Rambus arent too far as the P4 doesnt utilize all the bandwith that rambus offers....its the same reason why P3s and DDr never really caught on.....from what i hear the i845D is supposed to be a beast, according to Anandtech, it may even be the next bx...we all know intel needs antoher one of those :)

[Mike360000]

Funnyperson,
Yeah I've heard or read some amazing things concerning that 845 chipset. I've read constant and consistent stories of oc'ing them things *easily* to 160mhz fsb!(In particularly on the BL7 Abit boards.) I expect to hit that *if* I can get the right processor. (Hoping to go to the computer show in 2 weeks and personally scour the booths for a cD0 P4 1.7 cpu. Wonder what luck I should expect in trying this?)

I am convinced from a combination of reviews and personal stories, that a 845 board combined with a highly oc'ed P4 1.7 should give stunning performance for the buck. I'm kind'of curious as to how a P4 1.7 oc'ed to, say, 2.2 or 2.3, on a 845 chipset, would stack up against the Athlon XP's? I've not read any comparisons on that yet. And I to have already heard the comparison made between the 845 to 440BX chipset. To me, if its' even close, it would be one heck of a chipset!

Cheers,
Mike Lamb

[ol' man]

Dude I wouldn't use anything but the BD133u or the ST6 right now for the celery you know. Why the supermicro? I am sure you have read my rants so forget it I am done. As for buying a PIV?????????????????? Man you must be drunk:D Only thing they are good for are skipping on the water at the beach cause they are so flat and heavy like a flat pebble. They would also make good temporay ninja stars you could through into the wall for fun. What would be most fun is wrapping the chip up and sending it back to intel after I set fire to it and it melted and then smashed it. I hate that chip and what it is doing to current CPU's. Look what AMD has had to do so there chips could be recognised as equals when they really smash the junky PIV to bits. I own intel chips but the PIV is a disgrace itself, how cares who makes the stupid memory for the board thast is the lesser of its wrongs!

[Dark Illusion]

SuperMicro is one of the better mobo makers. I need on-board scsi, 64bit pci slot along w/ the usual shabang. SuperMicro's got it. The only other that I've seen is Tyan, but we tend to favor companies we've had good experience with rather than none at all.

PIV..well I wasn't planning on buying one *now*. I meant the Northwood. I saw..in one of the links Batman gave that showed a pre-production northwood in action. Not "wow" factor, but good nonetheless. Saw the 1.5ghz Cualatin there too.

Among them were dual duron and Xp benches too. All in jap so I couldn't understand but numbers are easy enough to read. And *I* care about the memory in there=) Little tiny things irk me such as making others pay you royalties for selling their memory. I don't care if the price is lower then DDR, I wouldn't touch the stuff. Same with VIA. I can't seem to play counter-strike on any of those boards, evn with the latest 4-in-1. Costed me a lotta headaches as I'm on AOHell and can't d/l on a whim.

Mayb a couple years from now if they make an exceptional product I'll reconsider, but I'm too hardheaded at the moment. One of my..less attractive traits=)

[funnyperson1]

Originally posted by ol' man
Dude I wouldn't use anything but the BD133u or the ST6 right now for the celery you know. Why the supermicro? I am sure you have read my rants so forget it I am done. As for buying a PIV?????????????????? Man you must be drunk:D Only thing they are good for are skipping on the water at the beach cause they are so flat and heavy like a flat pebble. They would also make good temporay ninja stars you could through into the wall for fun. What would be most fun is wrapping the chip up and sending it back to intel after I set fire to it and it melted and then smashed it. I hate that chip and what it is doing to current CPU's. Look what AMD has had to do so there chips could be recognised as equals when they really smash the junky PIV to bits. I own intel chips but the PIV is a disgrace itself, how cares who makes the stupid memory for the board thast is the lesser of its wrongs!

DO NOT GET THE BD133U, it is not compatible with the Celly 1.2, me and several other people on the Iwill BBS cannot get it to boot with the Celly 1.2....

[ol' man]

I* have known now a few pople have the problem you are speaking of but I also know a few people that get it too work also like here.

http://www.overclockers.com/articles482/

But none the less the ST6 would be the ideal OC'n board. I heard the supermicro 1/4 dividers will not kick unless you coverup possibly a certain pin causing the mobo to think the chip is a 133fsb chip by default. Your choice.

[Dark Illusion]

We're not at O/C.com for no reason=)

[ol' man]

Originally posted by Dark Illusion
We're not at O/C.com for no reason=)

Yeah I know, but I though most here only liked to OC when it was convenient. I figured most here didn't like to spend any time on like the 5~10 minutes it may take to do a polish trick and vid pin wire. I mean this is stuff that is really hard to do and takes alot of time:rolleyes: ;) There must be only a few select hardcore OC'rs like me. Although if you are hardcore then you hgave hardcore screwups too;)

[BigRed]

As for buying a PIV?????????????????? Man you must be drunk Only thing they are good for are skipping on the water at the beach cause they are so flat and heavy like a flat pebble. They would also make good temporay ninja stars you could through into the wall for fun. What would be most fun is wrapping the chip up and sending it back to intel after I set fire to it and it melted and then smashed it. I hate that chip and what it is doing to current CPU's. Look what AMD has had to do so there chips could be recognised as equals when they really smash the junky PIV to bits. I own intel chips but the PIV is a disgrace itself, how cares who makes the stupid memory for the board thast is the lesser of its wrongs!
how un-true. first of all i have owned both chips, and from a not so good expereince intel is the victor in my mind. amd is just a rag-tag company in my eyes, i have had an athlon 1.2ghz and the fan failed and now i have a nice black keychain :mad: :mad: :mad: amd needs to seriously stop what they are doing and rethink their processor designs, because this is ridiclous. which is why i prefer intel, i have had fans fail on my p3 3 times, and it still works. intels processor design is FAR ahead of amds. *points at the toms hardware video* until amd deals with their heat problem ill never buy another one of their processors (yes i know that the xp is not as bad but it will still fry with no fan).

and dont rip on the northwood. the willimate go ahead and flame, lol. the willimate sux hardcore. because amd suprised intel with the athlon and intel put half the orginial p4 architechure (sp?) on the chopping block to get the processor out the door faster. and intel really made a bad move trying to market it as the fastest processor even though the athlon clearly made the willimate its bit*h. but like so many people have said the p4 looks great on paper. and intel is finally going to put most of that stuff on paper into realiaty in the northwood (mostly cuz they can fit it all on the chip because of the .13micron die shrink).
the northwoods are going to own espically with ddr333 :)

[Mike360000]

BigRed,
Going from a Willamette to the Northwood will be a bigger jump than going from the P2 to the P3 Coppermine! I agree with you, the Northwood is going to be awesome on paper and in reality!

As for the ol'man
Personally at this point I don't care if the Athlons are faster. I've had problems and more problems getting a good stable AMD system. If it isn't a chipset issue, it's a motherboard mistake, or if not that, then faulty drivers, or as BigRed said, heat problems, and then there always seems to be some kind of compatibility problem along the way that warrants extra time in solving. I've had just too many bad experiences to continueally waste my time taking a crapshot every time I build a AMD system. When they work, and I've had a few to work with relative ease, but only a very few, they work real good. But it ain't worth the hair pulling frustrations for me to continueally subject myself to that kind of torture!

Cheers,
Mike Lamb

[Pinky]

Originally posted by BigRed

how un-true. first of all i have owned both chips, and from a not so good expereince intel is the victor in my mind. amd is just a rag-tag company in my eyes, i have had an athlon 1.2ghz and the fan failed and now i have a nice black keychain :mad: :mad: :mad: amd needs to seriously stop what they are doing and rethink their processor designs, because this is ridiclous. which is why i prefer intel, i have had fans fail on my p3 3 times, and it still works. intels processor design is FAR ahead of amds. *points at the toms hardware video* until amd deals with their heat problem ill never buy another one of their processors (yes i know that the xp is not as bad but it will still fry with no fan).

I forgot (very rookie mistake) to plug my fan back in when I removed my heatsink earlier. Booted into windows, then the PC rebooted automatically. I thought enough to check the temps in my vios, saw it idling at 46C and realized what I had done. No damage done ;), with a AMD I would have been toast. Does this mean I'll never own an AMD? No, it just means I have to be more careful and that I am happy that I own an Intel right now :p.

BTW, I was trying to remove the IHS AGAIN and it still won't go. Spent 20 minutes trying... new blades and all, just won't budge!!! Arghh!!!

[ol' man]

As for thinking I am pro AMD or something you all had better know I have never owned a AMD chip so far. I just hate that the PIV is killing the PIII line and offering alot less. I am speaking for the PIV willie. Thought you would have noticed that. We do not know how well the Northwood is going to perform at all. You have some good benchies with rdram @ 1066MHz? I doubt it. I have not seen one and once again I am speaking for the hideous creature called the williamette. If you have some good benchies with the northwood and rdam and it shows major improvements over the willie then I will look at with some optimism but as for now I spit on that creation and what it is doing to the cpu industry. I have only seen some benchies sdram and the i845. I almost would not call them benchies you know. None the less they were not impressive!

[TC]

I would go for the 1.2 celly right now. It's going to take a while for the northwood's price/performance ration to become reasonable after it's launched. You're getting a lot of bang for your buck with an overclocked tualatin celly. Just my 2 cents.

[BigRed]

As for thinking I am pro AMD or something you all had better know I have never owned a AMD chip so far. I just hate that the PIV is killing the PIII line and offering alot less. I am speaking for the PIV willie. Thought you would have noticed that. We do not know how well the Northwood is going to perform at all. You have some good benchies with rdram @ 1066MHz? I doubt it. I have not seen one and once again I am speaking for the hideous creature called the williamette. If you have some good benchies with the northwood and rdam and it shows major improvements over the willie then I will look at with some optimism but as for now I spit on that creation and what it is doing to the cpu industry. I have only seen some benchies sdram and the i845. I almost would not call them benchies you know. None the less they were not impressive!
i also hate what intel is doing. the morons are just trying to avoid a lawsuit from rambus by not going ddr. but dont worry, their rambus licence runs out jan 2002 so hopefully intel will wake up a little and get an i845 ddr333 board out the door. the i845 is a very excellent chipset, just not when its paried with sdram. if SiS releases their i845 ddr333 northwood board out soon, and it works decently, the northwood will look very attractive.

[ol' man]

Originally posted by BigRed

i also hate what intel is doing. the morons are just trying to avoid a lawsuit from rambus by not going ddr. but dont worry, their rambus licence runs out jan 2002 so hopefully intel will wake up a little and get an i845 ddr333 board out the door. the i845 is a very excellent chipset, just not when its paried with sdram. if SiS releases their i845 ddr333 northwood board out soon, and it works decently, the northwood will look very attractive.

Do you have any benchies predicting this to back this statement up? You say attractive?

I was at a football game with a bunch of people that don't much about computers and they wanted to argue that the PIV was a better chip than the PIII. Haha. I asked them if they knew anything about IPC (Instructions Per Cycle).

[jazztrumpet216]

Originally posted by ol' man

I was at a football game with a bunch of people that don't much about computers and they wanted to argue that the PIV was a better chip than the PIII. Haha. I asked them if they knew anything about IPC (Instructions Per Cycle).

Lol... well, I can say some of my multimedia stuff... graphics mainly, is better on my P4 than the Celeron... but that's because of SSE2. Past that, I see no real improvement between my Cele @1 Gig than my P4 @1.8. For an 800Mhz difference, that's downright pathetic, IMHO.

[ol' man]

Originally posted by jazztrumpet216


Lol... well, I can say some of my multimedia stuff... graphics mainly, is better on my P4 than the Celeron... but that's because of SSE2. Past that, I see no real improvement between my Cele @1 Gig than my P4 @1.8. For an 800Mhz difference, that's downright pathetic, IMHO.

Yeah dude the PIV is a loser.

[Dark Illusion]

I have a friend who's running a pair of 1.2 gig cellys with a Supermicro P3TDG - I think that's the correct model number. He's not having any problems that I know of.

That's it. I'm getting me some cellys.

[ol' man]

Originally posted by Dark Illusion


That's it. I'm getting me some cellys.

Ummmm, where did you hear this?

[ol' man]

Originally posted by Dark Illusion


That's it. I'm getting me some cellys.

Hey once again where did you get this info or what forum was it?

We are finding out many things about the powerleap adapter too like the reason OC'n was not good on it is because the default vcore was being stuck at 1.32v and not 1.475v like it was supposed to be at. Once they got the vcore to 1.475 they found the celery hit 119fsb at a default vcore of 1.475v which gave a 1440MHz speed which is pretty close to what people normally get at default vcore.

[Mike360000]

"Do you have any benchies predicting this to back this statement up? You say attractive?

I was at a football game with a bunch of people that don't much about computers and they wanted to argue that the PIV was a better chip than the PIII. Haha. I asked them if they knew anything about IPC (Instructions Per Cycle)."

I agree the P4 is lacking. And the 845 chipset will improve a badly over inflated price for the RAMBUS mobo and ram. Still not all is lost if one can oc the P4 to its' absolute maximum limits, well over 2 ghz, and the ram. The architecture for the P4, as you well know, does NOT allow for performance at low mhz, simply because it has so many pipes and is fed from small buffers, including small caches. The only practical solution to this is to speed things up enough to overcome the wait states and delays that gets imposed on the cpu because of the pipes and everything not being fed fast enuff. Sure there is a lot more to it than that, and I'm no expert in the area, but in simple terms it explains a lot. And the Northwood *supposed* address a lot, if not most of these problems, and the 845 chipset has already addressed the chipset buffers.

Also consider; more pipes equals allowing higher mhz, more oc'able, but less benchmarking at equal mhz compared to less pipes and lower mhz cpu's which equals higher benches, but not as oc'able, and at lower overall mhz to begin with. It's the extra pipes of the P4 that has screwed the P4 up. And it was done, I think with several things in mind. To outrun AMD in the mhz race. To allow for a newer ram that had more bandwith, all the while hoping new programs would come out to take advantage of it. It put AMD on the spot, in some ways because of the mhz war, which should not be counted that way, but Intel seemed to know the marketing to the dumb consumer, and their mentality.

The real mistake Intel made was they couldn't see the IT manager view of all this. First the IT manager didn't need RAMBUS to begin with, and they didn't need special apps to take advantage of RAMBUS, simply because RAMBUS, if implemented correctly was overkill for most all office solutions. Also RAMBUS was and still is considered new technology, and IT managers don't need something to worry over, that they consider unproven. IT managers also has a good stock of SDRAM, and will prefer using it as long as possible. The 845 chipset was also designed with this in mind, IT managers.

The thing that the 845 chipset does that improves the P4's performance so much is the 845's super deep buffers. And it can only get better with DDR ram and more so with even greater or deeper buffers. Intel also allowed and seemed to prefer that this 845 chipset be highly oc'able. At least that is what I read the trick, the buffers was, concerning the 845 at Anandtech's.

(I mean the whole chipset seems to me to be designed with a oc'er in mind!)

Look up the 845 chipset roundup of mobos at Anandtech's. That is *if* you can believe Anand. I personally don't trust Anandtech's, but I've read some similar reviews and seen outstanding memory benches at other website reviews. http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1533&p=5

I personally like this next website. I've come to respect a lot of what they have to say.
http://www.tweakersasylum.com/Reviews/ABIT/BL7RAID/00000001.htm

Note the memory benchmarks on the oc'ed P4, on the BL7.
It is showing oc'ed memory benchmarks at the 900 range in Sandra for both ALU and FPU benches! Now can't no one deny that isn't good, especially for the P4 and SDRAM! That is DDR ram benching ranges! Notice the amount of fsb oc also. That is common for the 845 chipsets I've seen tested.

And I liked this web review also:
http://www.hardware-one.com/reviews.asp?aid=242&page=1

Anyhow just my .02 cets worth.

Cheers,
Mike Lamb

[Mike360000]

bump---

I didn't think this thread should be dead yet!

Cheers,
Mike Lamb

[Dark Illusion]

Originally posted by ol' man


Hey once again where did you get this info or what forum was it?

We are finding out many things about the powerleap adapter too like the reason OC'n was not good on it is because the default vcore was being stuck at 1.32v and not 1.475v like it was supposed to be at. Once they got the vcore to 1.475 they found the celery hit 119fsb at a default vcore of 1.475v which gave a 1440MHz speed which is pretty close to what people normally get at default vcore.

Sorry. I'm having a horrible no good very bad day.

Umm, it was on this forum. Intel Mobo's. Lemme see if I can find it.

[Dark Illusion]

Posted here (http://forums.overclockers.ws/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48169) by TC.

I figure, if the 2nd doesn't work..I'll sell it.

[TC]

Kinda lost track of the posts in here, but I noticed you referenced an earlier post of mine, so if I can help let me know. Please PM me.