ideas for water and air cooling system...

[Navvie]

Ok, this is my first post, so be gentle with me. :-)

There seem to be two main schools of thought when it comes to cooling your CPU, water or air. Air is the mainstream, traditional way. The general basics are, gets as much air moving over as much surface area as possible. Only problem is you need a lot of air and surface area for really good cooling, and you get lots of noise...

Water cooling is still in its infancy, you move water through a block which is stuck on your CPU. Advantages over air cooling, its more efficient and its far quieter.

Everybody seems to be wanting to channel a water block out of a block of copper, and trying to "rough up" the edges of the channel to increase turbulence and eliminate the 'barrier layer" of static water and thus increasing heat transfer.

What nobody seems to be doing is getting an all copper heatsink and putting on the five missing sides to make a box with lots of fins/pins inside it to flow water around.

It wouldn't be that hard, would it? Ok, you might have to be a little clever to avoid having water sitting in the block and going nowhere... Lots of surface area for the water to touch, lots of turbulence caused by the fins... this is all good, right?

Something I've noticed is that people who use water cooling, tend to use fans for very little else than for airflow through their case, and too cool their radiator. Why nobody puts a hsf on the top of their water block...? Sure, we're talking some real weight here, definetely not what you'd want to hang from the cpu socket, or probably even the motherboard, but there's always the case itself behind the motherboard...

Soldering, or sticking a hs onto a water block with some heat bonding compound wouldn't need a degree in rocket science, and I would imagine it would help cool your block/water. A monster hsf wouldn't really be needed... blocks themselves are pretty effective at cooling.

NB. I don't have a water cooling system, and I've never seen one, I don't know how hot blocks get... would one really need a hsf to help keep it cool?

I've seen that everyone seems to be using plastic pipes of some sort too, I'm sorry to say it but all the pictures i've seen do all look kinda messy... why not use copper piping? It would be easy to route around the inside of you case, look a lot more professional and again, give you some extra room to dissipate more heat that you picked up from the CPU in the block.

Its been established that turbulence is a good thing, so wind some copper wire into a coil, and thread it through your pipes...

Now the radiator, the current emphasis seems to be on keeping it small, yet we know that having more surface area is good, so why not have a long, tall radiator thin radiator running along one side (outside!) of the PC case?

If you made your own from the copper pipe and some strips of copper (or aluminium) to make the fins, it could be very slim, and unobtrusive..., fited to the side of the PC case which faces away from you, you wouldn't even know it was there... some handy work with a couple of valves so you could easily remove the radiator and the case when you need to get to the insides of the machine would be needed here, but thats about the hardest bit.

Getting back to our heatsink in a water block with a heatsink mated to the top of it, why not make this whole unit from one tall heatsink, only half enclosed in a water block? I don't know quite how you'd manage it without some very very clever soldering - or perhaps casting it... - but it would solve having to have some sort of bond between the two surfaces, aiding heat transfer.

Onto our liquid that we're going to cool the whole thing with... water, mixed with methanol seems to be the best?

Ok, theres my idea, sorry if I've not explained anything too well. and if I rambled in places... it seems there are a lot of new, good ideas out there, but nobody is bringing together everything thats been learnt about cooling into one product. Current solutions seem to be "good enough", but nothing I've seen reviewed on overclockers.com really strives for exceptional cooling temps...

I'd like to get to the stage where I have to worry about room temperature heating up the CPU. :)

I plan to build a new PC early next month, and while i'll be going for a swiftech HSF, i will be making a third PC sometime next year where and i'll be implementing my above suggestions to cool that.

[ButcherUK]

Wow quite a post...

Originally posted by Navvie
Ok, this is my first post, so be gentle with me. :-)

There seem to be two main schools of thought when it comes to cooling your CPU, water or air. Air is the mainstream, traditional way. The general basics are, gets as much air moving over as much surface area as possible. Only problem is you need a lot of air and surface area for really good cooling, and you get lots of noise...

Water cooling is still in its infancy, you move water through a block which is stuck on your CPU. Advantages over air cooling, its more efficient and its far quieter.

Everybody seems to be wanting to channel a water block out of a block of copper, and trying to "rough up" the edges of the channel to increase turbulence and eliminate the 'barrier layer" of static water and thus increasing heat transfer.

What nobody seems to be doing is getting an all copper heatsink and putting on the five missing sides to make a box with lots of fins/pins inside it to flow water around.

It wouldn't be that hard, would it? Ok, you might have to be a little clever to avoid having water sitting in the block and going nowhere... Lots of surface area for the water to touch, lots of turbulence caused by the fins... this is all good, right?


Ok people have done this (myself included) the problem is getting a good seal on the heatsink is really hard. Plain blocks are nice and easy to make and get to actually work. You can try it though :)


Something I've noticed is that people who use water cooling, tend to use fans for very little else than for airflow through their case, and too cool their radiator. Why nobody puts a hsf on the top of their water block...? Sure, we're talking some real weight here, definetely not what you'd want to hang from the cpu socket, or probably even the motherboard, but there's always the case itself behind the motherboard...

Soldering, or sticking a hs onto a water block with some heat bonding compound wouldn't need a degree in rocket science, and I would imagine it would help cool your block/water. A monster hsf wouldn't really be needed... blocks themselves are pretty effective at cooling.

NB. I don't have a water cooling system, and I've never seen one, I don't know how hot blocks get... would one really need a hsf to help keep it cool?


This wouldn't really help much (blocks aren't much over ambient really), and would negate the whole as few fans as possible thing a lot of water coolers have going. Water really is so good that you don;t need anything extra. :)


I've seen that everyone seems to be using plastic pipes of some sort too, I'm sorry to say it but all the pictures i've seen do all look kinda messy... why not use copper piping? It would be easy to route around the inside of you case, look a lot more professional and again, give you some extra room to dissipate more heat that you picked up from the CPU in the block.


Vinyl or silicone pipes are very easy to fit and very easy to alter if you change motherboard etc. copper pipes are a real chore to get set up.


Its been established that turbulence is a good thing, so wind some copper wire into a coil, and thread it through your pipes...


Not much use for turbulence in pipes, you want minimal turbulence for maximum flow there.


Now the radiator, the current emphasis seems to be on keeping it small, yet we know that having more surface area is good, so why not have a long, tall radiator thin radiator running along one side (outside!) of the PC case?

If you made your own from the copper pipe and some strips of copper (or aluminium) to make the fins, it could be very slim, and unobtrusive..., fited to the side of the PC case which faces away from you, you wouldn't even know it was there... some handy work with a couple of valves so you could easily remove the radiator and the case when you need to get to the insides of the machine would be needed here, but thats about the hardest bit.


Most people have the radiator tucked inside the case which is even less obvious and more convienient for access, however a side mounted rad is very possible, again there's the effort of building one to factor in.


Getting back to our heatsink in a water block with a heatsink mated to the top of it, why not make this whole unit from one tall heatsink, only half enclosed in a water block? I don't know quite how you'd manage it without some very very clever soldering - or perhaps casting it... - but it would solve having to have some sort of bond between the two surfaces, aiding heat transfer.


That would probably be far too hard to make - cast copper doesn't work that well for waterblocks either due to leaks from air bubbles in the copper.


Onto our liquid that we're going to cool the whole thing with... water, mixed with methanol seems to be the best?


Only for low temps, for room temperature distilled water with some water wetter is the best.


Ok, theres my idea, sorry if I've not explained anything too well. and if I rambled in places... it seems there are a lot of new, good ideas out there, but nobody is bringing together everything thats been learnt about cooling into one product. Current solutions seem to be "good enough", but nothing I've seen reviewed on overclockers.com really strives for exceptional cooling temps...


For extreme people use phase-change cooling :)


I'd like to get to the stage where I have to worry about room temperature heating up the CPU. :)


Then you get the worries of condensation, however it's easy enough to get sub-ambient by using pelts anyway.


I plan to build a new PC early next month, and while i'll be going for a swiftech HSF, i will be making a third PC sometime next year where and i'll be implementing my above suggestions to cool that.

Excellent, be interested to hear how it pans out :)

And that has to be the longest post ever :D

[The Overclocker]

and that was the longest reply ever,

some of the ideas expressed are simple ones, the radiator for instance looks better when mounted on the inside and allows you to direct more air into it, i chose, like most people to buy a radiator because it is cheeper to buy one then make one becuase of the design - for instance a old heater core would cost less the the copper tubing for a radiator

i am at the moment making a water block made out of a heatsink but a few problems arise with directing water over the heatsink, because of the design of the heatsink their is a good chance of water being 'trapped' in between fins while fresh water just goes past it

turbulance only helps inside a waterblock or radiator becuase it makes the water 'swirl' and touch more of the side increseing the surface area touched by water, although their are some designes with waterblocks incresing turbulance their are not many radiators that do

[adamtekh]

:burn: :mad: :eh?:

[Maximus Nickus]

zzzzzzzzzzz

[Navvie]

Cheers to all that replied, wrote a really long reply and vB didn't like it, too many images?, went back to change it but it was all gone.

Turbulence in pipes, so long as you can get the water flowing fast... then turbulence should be ok, fatter pipes and a more powerful pump.

Outboard rad, large rads just seem like a better idea to me, shouldn't be too hard to make one... I work at a builders merchants, would probably take a few lunch breaks.

Carpe Diem,
Navvie.

[Sonny]

You can try the MCX462 then add walls to it for your waterblock. A fan on it is a good idea if your pump fails but you can always bulletproof it so it doesnt. A radiator outside is a very good idea since it'll soak up some of the cold room temps. Smooth pipes I think are better cause you need the flow not the turbulance in there. You need cool air thru the case for the video card, MoBo, RAM, Hard Disks.....If you take your system apart then copper tubes will be a pain.

Ideas are good. Just don't be discouraged with some of the useless, post padding replys of some people here. If nobody asks about leftside topics then we will not come up with wonderful ideas.:beer:

[JML]

Navvie- Me and a friend went to our local junkyard a while back to get "stuff" and since then I've had this large radiator car radiator just sitting in my garage. It' about 24" x 14". It would fit nicely on the right side of a full tower case. I was thinking something like this (the link to the fan- http://www.egghead.com/ShowPage.dll?page=prod_page_p&ItemEDP=80691)

[ButcherUK]

That'd be quite the radiator, need one hell of a pump :)
Couple of suggestions, one is to duct the fan a few inches off the rad - better airflow in the centre.
The other is maybe a slightly larger gap between the rad and the case, though that would depend on the amount of air you're planning to shift.

[Sonny]

Isn't the rad too close to the case for good airflow?

JML's pic

[JML]

Yeah I was planning to put the fan off a bit from the radiator for better airflow and less noise, and maybe the radiator could be 4-5" off to the side instead of 3-4, it could be made pretty easily portable too.

You think a mag drive 7 would handle it? If not the Mag Drive 9.5 is only around $65

[JML]

sonny- probably ;)

[Navvie]

Originally posted by sonny
Isn't the rad too close to the case for good airflow?

That's a good point, although with a rad that big... how much active cooling would you need?

Carpe Diem,
Navvie.

[Sonny]

If you had a room that was 20°C then "active rads" would not be needed with that size. If you guys got money to burn there is this all aluminum polished rad that you can buy for only $500:eek: Then you got to think of the corrosion that aluminum & copper have but with a aluminum waterblock it'll be cool!!!!! Everyone would be like "Were can I get that RAD?!?!?!?!?!":Dj/k

[JML]

I wouldn't think the airflow would have to be to high considering the size of the radiator, however the fins on the radiator look like they are very close together, so high airflow might be needed just to get air through it (the fan in the link looks like it can do the trick)

[drunkmonkey]

Litle confusing but sounds good to me.

I've got a crazy idea though, don't be hard on me either, just simple yes or no. Cold tap from 200 ft in the ground coming into your computer, through waterblocks, and then pumped into your hot water heater. Huh, Huh? There might be a condensation problem though because of the temp difference. I don't think it would be that hard or costly if you know what you are doing.
Check out the diagram in the attachment(16-color bmp)

[ButcherUK]

Originally posted by drunkmonkey
Litle confusing but sounds good to me.

I've got a crazy idea though, don't be hard on me either, just simple yes or no. Cold tap from 200 ft in the ground coming into your computer, through waterblocks, and then pumped into your hot water heater. Huh, Huh? There might be a condensation problem though because of the temp difference. I don't think it would be that hard or costly if you know what you are doing.
Check out the diagram in the attachment(16-color bmp)

Some points:
Firstly, you're unlikely to need that pump, water from the tap comes out with a lot of pressure already.
Secondly, it would require plumbing into your hot water system which is usually a closed loop which could cause issues.
Finally, it'd be a waste of water on a collosal scale :)

[JML]

drunkmonkey- there is such a thing as underground cooling- here's how it works:
Get a large container to hold some water in, preferebly aluminum or some other metal, and run tubing to it out your window and bury the container underneath the ground. The idea is at a certain depth under the ground where it is always a cool temperature, and running your water to this container would chill the water in your system. Some guy did this and has a website about it but I lost the address for it- anyone else heard of this?

[ButcherUK]

Originally posted by JML
drunkmonkey- there is such a thing as underground cooling- here's how it works:
Get a large container to hold some water in, preferebly aluminum or some other metal, and run tubing to it out your window and bury the container underneath the ground. The idea is at a certain depth under the ground where it is always a cool temperature, and running your water to this container would chill the water in your system. Some guy did this and has a website about it but I lost the address for it- anyone else heard of this?

Yeah I can't remember the site either, but a cope pipe is a better bet, somewhat larger than the rest of your system to avoid too much back pressure and to maximise time in the pipe. About 1" should do it, then bury either a straight run or a coil of it.
As for depth, 3-4 feet should be plenty.

[Maximus Nickus]

Thats a cool idea.

In the future when you buy a house you will have to decide where to "plumb" in your PC like your kitchen equipment!!!

[Navvie]

Originally posted by drunkmonkey
Litle confusing but sounds good to me.

I've got a crazy idea though, don't be hard on me either, just simple yes or no. Cold tap from 200 ft in the ground coming into your computer, through waterblocks, and then pumped into your hot water heater. Huh, Huh? There might be a condensation problem though because of the temp difference. I don't think it would be that hard or costly if you know what you are doing.
Check out the diagram in the attachment(16-color bmp)

Just convinced my parents to let me move into the loft - ok, not my bed.. but all my computer stuff :) - there's a 40 or 50 gallon tank full of cold water up there - we haven't joined the central heating revolution yet, thankfully :) - since it'll only be a few feet from where my computer's going to be i was thinking of submerging my radiator in the tank, anyone got any reasons why i shouldn't?

[ButcherUK]

Other than that any leaks will affect the water supply to half your house, no ;)
Cold water tanks in the roof tend to supply the taps to the bathroom(s) in your house, taps in places such as kitchens are plumbed directly off the water main.

[The Overclocker]

Originally posted by sonny
You can try the MCX462 then add walls to it for your waterblock. A fan on it is a good idea if your pump fails but you can always bulletproof it so it doesnt. A radiator outside is a very good idea since it'll soak up some of the cold room temps. Smooth pipes I think are better cause you need the flow not the turbulance in there. You need cool air thru the case for the video card, MoBo, RAM, Hard Disks.....If you take your system apart then copper tubes will be a pain.

Ideas are good. Just don't be discouraged with some of the useless, post padding replys of some people here. If nobody asks about leftside topics then we will not come up with wonderful ideas.:beer:

overclock-watercool tryed encasing a swiftec in lexan to test it against a smaller 486 heatsink, they ware almost equal in performance, resistance is the answer not surface area

[Maximus Nickus]

Interesting thread...

[adamtekh]

the heatsink/ water block is interesting , for now i think ill just go with a swifty mc-372-b for the water cooling that i will be doing

ill be mounting the heator core and pump out side (left side panel) i think :cool:

it needs to be portable for LAN's and all