Why a mini fridge won't work, Revisited. FREEZERS!

[GreenJelly]

Ok, I read the article about the Minifridge and the ExtremeOverclocking forum, but I was wondering about some different ideas.

The Idea I was thinking of Is getting a Freezer, and putting my whole case in it. I would drill a whole and put in a few USB extensions plus audio cables. I would take care of sealing this whole.

Now I assume the Freezer alone wouldnt cool this system to sub ambient temps, and I also know that I run Watercooling. I would create a Bypase valve that would hook up to the freezer, and that would re-direct my water through a few phasechange based watercoolers mounted on the outside of the freezer. On the outside of the case. I hear thats what a few coolers from water fountains may be usefull.

If I have subambient air temps in the freezer, and the freezer has auto defrost, I would assume that I could then not worry about condensation or frost, and wouldnt need thermal grease on my mobo cpu socket etc.

The freezer air would help keep the entire system cold, even the parts that are not normally cooled. And because of the waterchillers they would be able to add additional cooling to the water loop. Thus maybe eliminating the extreme stress of such a system.

If you could continue to drop the temps of the system, and add more and more phasechange coolers, you could get the liquid to drop below or at the temp of current phasechangers. Yet you would have the freedom to remove the case and run it at lower settings for lan parties.

Of course you would have to switch from water to a subambient cooling solution (like liquid Freon), except that it would have to remain liquid at around 110f.

The liquid issue is one area of concern, because it would have to be non-corrosive.

Another area of concern is which pumps could handle such low temps.

I am wondering what others feel about a system. Honestly I dont think I will build it, unless I can find some parts in Craigslist and/or junkyards, and if I could do so cheaply. It also seems like allot of work, and may not be physically possible.

I think such a system would be 100% more efficent then a peltier system, and you wouldnt have to worry about any condensation due to the fact that at 0c their will be no water in the air.

I hear they use AirConditioners, which would work if placed mounted in a custom box. I could then make this box to fit the exact size of my case. I again dont know what the overall power of these systems could reach.

Tell me what you think...
Mike

[NoL]

Again for the size of this, and the fact that INSULATION IS NOT HARD PEOPLE!! why wouldn't you just save money on a normal phase system.

[Gnufsh]

I think you'd burn out the compressor on the freezer, which isn't meant to run continuously (which it would have to do to keep up with that heat load). I guess you could replace it with a better one.

[freakdiablo]

Why put the whole case in? just put the mobo and components in. or gasp, just remove the compressor and hook it up that way. But, ya, i dont think a normal freezer can handle the heatload of a modern computer thats on for more then 30 seconds.

[Deadbot1_1973]

Basically what you are trying to do is put the case into a small, very cold air conditioned room. You shouldn't have any issues with condensation, except when you shut the power down on the AC. Then you will have a pc that is colder than the surrounding air(if you were to take it out of that small space into the room you are in). The main problem with a setup like this is that the chilled components MUST remain separated from the warmer, moisture laden air outside the enclosure. You would want to remotely mount your Optical drive. Otherwise if you open the door to change a disk....wham, nice warm, moisture filled air just hit the system. Second, is the fact that these small fridges aren't designed to run in a continuous duty cycle. You would be better off with a unit designed for AC(say a small 5000 BTU window unit) which adds to the size and complexity of the project. Also, those things really suck some power, prepare for outrageous electric bills. I don't think that adding in a WC loop is the answer you need, as a high end air cooler will do just fine. Since it will have much lower air temps to work with, it will give you much lower working temps.

From a $$$$ viewpoint I think that you are going to spend a ton for a small return. The complexity of such a system is IMHO not worth it. Especially since it sounds like you want the best of both worlds(subambient and portability).

[greenmaji]

A freezer is tuned to the same heat load capasity as a refigerator if not less (considering the expectation that some of the product is already frozen most of the time) and is only tuned to reach a different on load temperature.

In other words, your dealing with the same functional problem as you are with a refigerator.

[GreenJelly]

A freezer is tuned to the same heat load capasity as a refigerator if not less (considering the expectation that some of the product is already frozen most of the time) and is only tuned to reach a different on load temperature.

In other words, your dealing with the same functional problem as you are with a refigerator.

Its just such a good idea...
Lower Ambient temp bellow 0c.
Then Lower Liquid Cooling Temp WAY down.

Its so easy to cool liquid with phase change.

I think of this because if someone could make a case that holds your CD-Drives, etc outside. Then provides all of your computer parts inside (plus HardDrives), then just provides extensions to all of the wirers from the MoBo with external wire jacks.

Use an External WaterPump + Water Cooler and Airconditioning. All pre-fabbed up nice.

The only issue would be to control the noise the system makes outside. Inside HD's, Fans, ETC would all be silented by the insolation.

[greenmaji]

The heat load is less is the problem, food gets cold and stays cold unlike computer components that produce heat in operation.

[matttheniceguy]

In any of these types of schemes (I'll use 2 freezers for this and a pelt for this and bla bla bla) all you have to do to see if it will work is look at the heat load.

How much power does your computer consume at full load? Most of us have a 400+ watt power supply, and they arn't all that efficient.

Show me a freezer/watercooler/fridge that can handle that heat load continuously, and I will show you a retail DirectDie system that costs less. It will also work much better, be quieter, more efficient, and won't take up your entire garage.

Freezers get colder, that doesn't mean they have more capacity. In general they actually have less capacity because to reach colder temps they run with less refrigerant under more vacume. They are also designed to be opened and have warm things put in them less often than a fridge.

[Pf.Farnsworth]

Ok, I read the article about the Minifridge and the ExtremeOverclocking forum, but I was wondering about some different ideas.

The Idea I was thinking of Is getting a Freezer, and putting my whole case in it. I would drill a whole and put in a few USB extensions plus audio cables. I would take care of sealing this whole.

Now I assume the Freezer alone wouldnt cool this system to sub ambient temps, and I also know that I run Watercooling. I would create a Bypase valve that would hook up to the freezer, and that would re-direct my water through a few phasechange based watercoolers mounted on the outside of the freezer. On the outside of the case. I hear thats what a few coolers from water fountains may be usefull.

If I have subambient air temps in the freezer, and the freezer has auto defrost, I would assume that I could then not worry about condensation or frost, and wouldnt need thermal grease on my mobo cpu socket etc.

The freezer air would help keep the entire system cold, even the parts that are not normally cooled. And because of the waterchillers they would be able to add additional cooling to the water loop. Thus maybe eliminating the extreme stress of such a system.

If you could continue to drop the temps of the system, and add more and more phasechange coolers, you could get the liquid to drop below or at the temp of current phasechangers. Yet you would have the freedom to remove the case and run it at lower settings for lan parties.

Of course you would have to switch from water to a subambient cooling solution (like liquid Freon), except that it would have to remain liquid at around 110f.

The liquid issue is one area of concern, because it would have to be non-corrosive.

Another area of concern is which pumps could handle such low temps.

I am wondering what others feel about a system. Honestly I dont think I will build it, unless I can find some parts in Craigslist and/or junkyards, and if I could do so cheaply. It also seems like allot of work, and may not be physically possible.

I think such a system would be 100% more efficent then a peltier system, and you wouldnt have to worry about any condensation due to the fact that at 0c their will be no water in the air.

I hear they use AirConditioners, which would work if placed mounted in a custom box. I could then make this box to fit the exact size of my case. I again dont know what the overall power of these systems could reach.

Tell me what you think...
Mike


Bad Idea from start to finish unlese you have a huge industrial feezer or dont want much in terms of temperature, in which case why bother anyway.

Also in case you do have a huge industrial freezer it is still not tuned to remove a large load very fast, so you will have to cut it up, recover refrigerant,respec and replace parts, evac and recharge. Hope you have money tools and a licence (if you want to get any refrigerants, other wise you are limited to r134a and propane).

To cool the whole computer is not only pointless but is also increadibly stupid.

First of all your computer as a whole outputs much more heat then just your cpu/gpu so the load is alot larger further driving the point that unlese you have a huge industrial freezer this isnt really going to work.

Second, its stupid because cooling all the other parts besides your pcu/gpu will gain you nothing but will however cost you something. That something is what you could have had had you not wasted your cooling on things that dont need cooling and cooled things that actually benifit from more cooling.

Do you even know what auto defrost does? Yes you will have condensatrion problems, what are you thinking? If you go below subambient you will have condensation probalems. How badly is a factor of humidity and temperature but it doesnt take much to kill your hardware. At 0C you wont have water in the air because it will be in the form of ice ON your hardware. However before it freezes it will be condensing as a liquid ON your hardware and will short it out. And when it melts it will again.

You want to switch water for "liquid freon"? I sugest you do alot of reading before you kill yourself or someone else because you are absolutly clueless. Freon refers to refrigerants, which are gasses at standart temp/pressure, like propane for eaxample. Do you know what it takes to make propane liquid? Alot of pressure and a sertain temperature range. You want to run a liqid cooling loop at 100-200psi?? ..... not to mention all those substances are infinetly worce at moving hear compared to water. What you would use if you knew what you were talking about would be a water and methanol or ethanol mix.

Iwaki md20 RLZ is good, panworld 40px, iwaki RD20/30 are great.

Phase change baised refrigeration is more efficient then pelts but dont be an idiot and thow around numbers you pulled out of your a$$ like "100% more efficent", especialy when they are that far off.

Btw, the way you are talking about throwing freezers everywhere are you paying the electricity bill? Do you have any remote idea how much all this will cost you to run?

It looks to me like you understad nothing and will fail very fast. I sugest you do alot more reading, maybe spend a few months here or at xtremesystems.org and actually understand how things work and what you are getting in to.


PS:

You dont need to add freezers to keep lowerig the temperature of your coolant, given if they all pull down to lets say x degrees you dont go lower then x no matter how many you add. You can however have a cascade that can pull the heat exchanger down to the bp of your last stage gas, lowest done on XS was -170C. But thats not a beginers project by any means.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=80

[GreenJelly]

Though I dont know if frost will form on the motherboard, but I do know that the temp of the components will be warmer then the temp of the air. If this is above 0c, and the air is bellow 0c, I dont really know what would happen.

Usually if your components are above the temp of ambient, the water in the air evaperates, instead of collecting. If the temp of ambient is above the temp of components then it condensates.

Once you get past 0c on both your components and in the air, and we do not add any more air to the system, I assume that their is NO moisture in the air.

I do know that Moisture will form on the cooling components as they push the air too 0c. I just dont know what happens to the properties of water and air after they hit the 0c mark. I would assume that their is no water in the air.

People do cool their entire PC's like I am talking about. Its called air conditioning. unfortunately they do not go as cold as I want to go.

So I ask this question... If its cheaper to cool the individual components then the entire system, then why are mainframes always cooled with air, which is then cooled with an airconditioner?

The reason I think this idea is so attractive is that it could be a very safe way to reach subambient temps.

I hate phasechange PC units, because they require a seperate box, are expensive, are fragile, and require modifications to the motherboard and other areas. I just dont want to add silicone and thermal grease, with all these other components to my system.

Peltiers also require modifications, are also expensive, require an additional water cooling loop, are inefficent and very power hungry, and if the cooling of the hotside stops... they can catch on fire...

Mike

BTW: They cool the air, cause it is cheaper then cooling the individual parts.

[GreenJelly]

Wait a minute...

People... I assume we are people... and not some alien species...

Why do we tear this idea apart, instead of thinking of a way to make it work... We should be brainstorming ideas, and coming up with solutions. I think we should be positive, and not negative. If we really look at the problem, with the idea that it could be done, then we may end up finding out that it is possible.

Just my 2 cents.

[Gnufsh]

I don't think cooling the whole computer is pointless, the gains would just be very small relative to the expense and work. I would suggest a special phase change system to remove the heat from the cpu to outside the freezer, and replace the stock compressor/whatever else needs to be replaced with components up to the task.

[greenmaji]

If you want to use forced air AC it would be much easier to build one for that purpose rather then entertaining the idea of a freezer intended for food ;)

You seem to have already come to the concludion that air is a very poor conductor of heat, and have desided you can live with that. That would be the biggest disadvantage of using air.

[GreenJelly]

If you want to use forced air AC it would be much easier to build one for that purpose rather then entertaining the idea of a freezer intended for food ;)

You seem to have already come to the concludion that air is a very poor conductor of heat, and have desided you can live with that. That would be the biggest disadvantage of using air.

unfortunately we are currently stuck one way or another using air to cool our systems. Even water cooled and peltier systems require air to cool... Phasechange also requires air.

The difference in all of the proposed solutions "extreme" solutions (AC, Phasechange, TEC) is that they make the difference of air temps to heat exchanger larger then that of a pure water cooling system.

I cant beleive there are no freezers that are made for such a heavy load. Even an air conditioner with a sub 0c temp range would be great. With a large capacity to handle a large number of BTU's. I wonder if such a system would be giant, or if their are smaller options.

[greenmaji]

Using air as the thermal conductor..
No, phase, water nor even "air" cooling uses it.

[Pf.Farnsworth]

unfortunately we are currently stuck one way or another using air to cool our systems. Even water cooled and peltier systems require air to cool... Phasechange also requires air.

The difference in all of the proposed solutions "extreme" solutions (AC, Phasechange, TEC) is that they make the difference of air temps to heat exchanger larger then that of a pure water cooling system.

I cant beleive there are no freezers that are made for such a heavy load. Even an air conditioner with a sub 0c temp range would be great. With a large capacity to handle a large number of BTU's. I wonder if such a system would be giant, or if their are smaller options.

There are, but they will run you $5000, and then $1000 per month for electricity bill. Instead of contemplaing the possibilities of the univerce of a forum go and do some work yourself. Go look and see if you can find a freezer for your load. Then go see how much it costs and see how much it will cost you to run it. You people come here understading nothing made no effort what so ever to do research or read books or actually go around and see what things cost and how they work and expect everything to be served up on a silver platter.

Saying that cooling air is more efficient then idividual parts is again an empty statment and means nothing because that is dependant on the situation. Understand that maybe cooling every cpu on a server farm with thausands of computers may not be "practical" so the rooms are air conditioned. However on a scale of one pc its the other way around.

Personaly I am not a fan of direct die myself. Chillers are the best option.

unfortunately we are currently stuck one way or another using air to cool our systems. Even water cooled and peltier systems require air to cool... Phasechange also requires air.

actually thats wrong. Green makes a good point as the contact pointis never air. But I think you are talking about it in a difference sence anyway. Point being you can move the heat in to a water loop then evaporate the water, that can be done even on the moon where there is no air, so no you dont have to have air. We just use it on the end because its convinient, however you clearly lack chemistry and physics knowledge. Using air to cool a heatsink and to cool a condensor is the same thing in essence yes but the result is very different, one is 40C load temp, other is -40C load temp. You have to look at it an an energy problem.

Wait a minute...

People... I assume we are people... and not some alien species...

Why do we tear this idea apart, instead of thinking of a way to make it work... We should be brainstorming ideas, and coming up with solutions. I think we should be positive, and not negative. If we really look at the problem, with the idea that it could be done, then we may end up finding out that it is possible.

Just my 2 cents.

The reason the idea is torn apart as you say because its flawed from the start, there is no point to making it work as YOU describe it. There are variations but far from you sugest. The reason its torn down is the same reason ford would tear you down if you come down to them with a proposition to make a car that runs on chocolate. You can but given the alternatives we have are better in every single way its just moronic.

You seem to turn down alternatives simply because you have only misconseptions and misinformation about them. If you want to cool air even though its a moot point given the alternatives you can, but it will be more expencive, harder, and with much less results.

You say you dont like phase change units because they need an extra box? If your freezer is not an extra box I dont know what is. You may have 1 box instead of 2 however it will be 4 times as big so whats the point. Also phase chance direct die units are make in the same case with the pc all the time.

You dont like phase change direct die units because of the price? You have not read what I wrote. Let me repeat, a freezer will need to be retuned, which will involve cutting it up, which will cost you much more money then a used vapo for example. And will require skill and very good understanding of the concept which you clearly lack.

You will need to insulate your case as waster will condense ont he outside when it gets cold and will make a mess in yoru room.

You will need to make a closed loop circulation system to move the air.

You will need to replace the air with 100% dry air, or better yet something like dry nitrogen or agron, those are the best options. Otherwise you will have condensation on your hardware I gurantee it.

Though I dont know if frost will form on the motherboard, but I do know that the temp of the components will be warmer then the temp of the air. If this is above 0c, and the air is bellow 0c, I dont really know what would happen.

I do know. Things dont happen instantly. First the water in the air will condense on your hardware and short it out, eventually it will freeze in to ice. And once the cooling is turned off it will melt. Yes you will have condensation if you go roughtly below 15C (dependant on your humidity, below 15C is a givem pretty much though). And if you go below 0C you will have ice.


People do cool their entire PC's like I am talking about. Its called air conditioning. unfortunately they do not go as cold as I want to go.


Well you just made our point for us. Theyd ont do it because its not smart or reasonable. Stop trying to outsmart the world, its not not done because we havent thought of it here or it hasnt been tried yet. Its not done because it has been tries and it has been established to be a waste of time and money.

I don't think cooling the whole computer is pointless, the gains would just be very small relative to the expense and work. I would suggest a special phase change system to remove the heat from the cpu to outside the freezer, and replace the stock compressor/whatever else needs to be replaced with components up to the task.

Actually it is pointless but let me define it. By pointless I mean to say cooling your capacitors for example will not net you anything. Further more if you do lower the resistance overall maybe you could potentialy gain 0.00000000001mhz from it but lets say any gains that small are = to pointless.

Further more to prove its absolutly pointless I offer this again. If you cool everything you are wasting cooling instead of using it on parts that can benifit from it like say your cpu, your gains actually Decrease if you cool everything since the same resourses could have been used to get you may more bang for your buck.

[GreenJelly]

Wow, Farnsworth is one of thoose guys that critisizes everyone and everybody. I happen to be having fun in this conversation. If you dont like it, then dont partake. Allot of what you say is correct, but allot of it is so wrong. You assume and belittle people. "You People...", "...its just moronic.", etc...

I beleive that not only the quest can be accomplished, but that it can be done in a reasonable way. Everytime someone tries to do something, their are people who say "It cant be done"... Yet countless times the critics where WRONG! Infact every conceviable idea has critics and skeptics. Often the critics prevent people frome even triing. To assume that it is impossible is to simplify the world to an extent that just isnt reasonable. I love people who justify why things cant be done because it hasnt been done in the past.

If you dont want to try and make something that is "Impossible" into "Possible", then maybe you shouldnt respond.

[Pf.Farnsworth]

I beleive that not only the quest can be accomplished, but that it can be done in a reasonable way. Everytime someone tries to do something, their are people who say "It cant be done"... Yet countless times the critics where WRONG! Infact every conceviable idea has critics and skeptics. Often the critics prevent people frome even triing. To assume that it is impossible is to simplify the world to an extent that just isnt reasonable. I love people who justify why things cant be done because it hasnt been done in the past.

If you dont want to try and make something that is "Impossible" into "Possible", then maybe you shouldnt respond.

You know the funny thing is yes our technology is often advanced by people who are criticized. But living in a scientific community let me explain something to you, this is how it works. If everything new wasn’t scrutinized there would be a lot of misinformation and incorrect conclusions floating around. That being said the "criticism" is fought by an "educated" person in defense of their theory on some biases. You on the other hand have no education even close to this area, if any at all. Have no experience, no information and no understanding of the concept. You are in no position to educated those who have been here doing this all this time.

You come here for technical help, so either take it or leave it. We arent here to offer you counsing or worry about your feelings.

Now get it right already, no one is saying it cant be done, everyone is saying it shouldnt be done because there are better ways to go about it. Stop being so defencive about it, entering this community you better be ready to listen to people when they tell you no this isnts the smart way to go about it, they know better then you they actually tried this before.

Wow, Farnsworth is one of thoose guys that critisizes everyone and everybody. I happen to be having fun in this conversation. If you dont like it, then dont partake. Allot of what you say is correct, but allot of it is so wrong. You assume and belittle people. "You People...", "...its just moronic.", etc...

Farnsworth is one of those guys who has been here actually doing this for the last few years, who is a mechanical engineer major, who actually knows what he is talking about as opposed to a what apperars to be a sensitive child who is convinced he is going to outsmart the world.

If I said something wrong go ahead and proove me wrong I am waiting.

[GigaForce310]

I beleive that not only the quest can be accomplished, but that it can be done in a reasonable way.

Then go try your theory out. We won't go where you live and try to stop you. Just don't come to us crying if it fails.

Everytime someone tries to do something, their are people who say "It cant be done"... Yet countless times the critics where WRONG!

That may be true, but on many more occasions the critics are right.

Many people learn that this idea is impractical by attempting it or quickly seeing the amount of reasources it takes to successfully accomplish this task.


Infact every conceviable idea has critics and skeptics. Often the critics prevent people frome even triing. To assume that it is impossible is to simplify the world to an extent that just isnt reasonable. I love people who justify why things cant be done because it hasnt been done in the past.

I don't see anyone who stated that this is impossible. Your argument has no basis nor relevance in this case.

The best arguement has yet to be made. Air is a poor conductor of heat. Answering that question raises another, "If your going to go to all that effort to get around the fact that air is a poor conductor, then why not try idea X that is much more practical?"

The truth is that these ideas are not new in any way nor uncommon. The reason that the thread "Why a mini fridge won't work" got stuck, wasn't because someone got bored and messed around. They did it because so many people have had pretty much the same idea that turns out not to work well if at all.

As Matttheniceguy said, If you find a way to do this, we will show you a cheaper way to do it better.

[Gnufsh]

What about cooling the mosfets? People seem to have gotten good results from cooling those. I managed to solve some sound problems on an old board of mine by sinking the SB. I admit that is is a) only anecdotal evidence and b) not extreme. I admit that the benefits from cooling the whole system to sub ambient temps are probably very small (and it could cause problems), but there is a difference between very small and zero (depending on how small the very small is, I guess). I would like to know if anybody has actually tried this, and if it provides any advantages over the same system with a similarly cooled cpu but the rest of the board cooled normally.

Still, you'd have to custom build a system to do this, and it's extremely unlikely to yield benefits anywhere near in proportion to the work it would take.

[stratcatprowlin]

A regular fridge won't work because they are not designed to cool things that are continuously generating heat.Some hot soup or pizza will cool down and stay cool because it doesn't generate any more heat once it has dissipated it.
Maybe some type of specially made Fridge would work? I don't know.

[greenmaji]

You very well could redesign a freezer to handle more heat load.

Adding a larger capasity likely active condenser, possibly upgrading the compressor if needed. But once you do just one of these things, your breaking into the system, wich is the same work as building a custom system.

And once your building a custom system.. uhh why build one that needs so much capasity that your subabiant cooling the capsitors and the PCB? Pretty much anything that could benfit from cooling they make a waterblock to cool it (including mosfets) so if you wanted to go all out the most effecent way of doing it is a chiller.

[stratcatprowlin]

And once your building a custom system.. uhh why build one that needs so much capasity that your subabiant cooling the capsitors and the PCB? Pretty much anything that could benfit from cooling they make a waterblock to cool it (including mosfets) so if you wanted to go all out the most effecent way of doing it is a chiller.

Yeah I think that says it all.It's not worth it.

[GreenJelly]

Yeah I think that says it all.It's not worth it.

Maybe... but we are also in a forum called "Extreme Cooling", and I think this is the most extreme.

Infact, If you really wanted to go extreme... Lets try and cool 3 cubic feet of air to CO2 freezing temps... with a 550 what heatsource inside...

HAHAHAHA evil grin HAHAHAHA

Now all I need is someone to finance my experiment.... any takers?

Mike

[stratcatprowlin]

Maybe... but we are also in a forum called "Extreme Cooling", and I think this is the most extreme.

Infact, If you really wanted to go extreme... Lets try and cool 3 cubic feet of air to CO2 freezing temps... with a 550 what heatsource inside...

HAHAHAHA evil grin HAHAHAHA

Now all I need is someone to finance my experiment.... any takers?

Mike

Hahaha! This is true but you aint gettin any of my money.Good luck

[greenmaji]

Now all I need is someone to finance my experiment.... any takers?

Hmm.. someone that hasn't done the reaserch or work to build a single, single stage condensing unit and your wanting backers for your auto-cascade or up to 3 to 4 stage cascade experment?

I'm out :p

[Pf.Farnsworth]

What about cooling the mosfets? People seem to have gotten good results from cooling those. I managed to solve some sound problems on an old board of mine by sinking the SB. I admit that is is a) only anecdotal evidence and b) not extreme. I admit that the benefits from cooling the whole system to sub ambient temps are probably very small (and it could cause problems), but there is a difference between very small and zero (depending on how small the very small is, I guess). I would like to know if anybody has actually tried this, and if it provides any advantages over the same system with a similarly cooled cpu but the rest of the board cooled normally.

Still, you'd have to custom build a system to do this, and it's extremely unlikely to yield benefits anywhere near in proportion to the work it would take.

This, GreenJelly, is what I call an argument by an educated person with baises and groud for one.

Gnufsh, I agree. While there is no sence in wasting cooling potential on cooling everything there are most sertainly some things, very few but none the less, that can benifit besides cpu and gpu. Mosfets, NB and maybe SB sertainly could. That being said I would have to say mosfets only in the reliability field. They generally are made to work in the ambient temperatures without problems. Sometimes they overheat due to very hot indoor temperatures or unexpected strain brought by increasing voltages when overclocking but rather rare. Good point thogh.


Lets try and cool 3 cubic feet of air to CO2 freezing temps... with a 550 what heatsource inside...


I wouldnt try to build a cascade that will probably kill you if you cant spell "watts". That and thas not extreem thats a waste of money and time. You can cool down your heat source much colder spending much less money and paying alot less for electricity.

Maybe... but we are also in a forum called "Extreme Cooling", and I think this is the most extreme.


We are. But most of us draw a fine line between extreem and "throwing our money in to the dumpster" :)

Hmm.. someone that hasn't done the reaserch or work to build a single, single stage condensing unit and your wanting backers for your auto-cascade or up to 3 to 4 stage cascade experment?

I'm out :p

:thup:

PS:

Just jumped over to XS to check things out and look at what I bumped in to. Post of someone ready to learn http://www.vulomedia.com/images/48972toast.gif


Hi there i am Tom and im 16 from South of England on a small island called the Isle of wight

i am mostly just interested now in the phase change cooling hence this is posted in here
i have had water cooling and TECs but now i am after some serious cooling power and this seemed to be the best option
i have been doing alot of research over the past 2-3 weeks (yes i know i will have to do more) but i have the jist of the backbround stuff and the principles


atm i am just trying to sort out parts and tools
i have found a local domestic appliance recondtioners that said they would be able to supply me with complete fridges for free
but i have one big question what am i meant to do with the gas i pull from the system as for my first system i intend on using r290
and if any one could point me to some good suppliers in the UK that would be great .

i hope i am taken into the comuntiy with open arms and i hope you can help me along the way.

oh i wont be starting the physical building until i have finished modding my Antec case as i have no room

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=121448

[matttheniceguy]

oh, if you really want to cool the whole mobo, videocard, etc, take a look into submersion cooling. It's a much more effective way of cooling everything. There are a few people who have done submersive cooling on the mobo to -40ish and then put DD on the CPU and videocard :eek:

Just be ready to spend a lot of money, make a mess, and have to replace a lot of capacitors to get it to work at that cold temperature.

[Pf.Farnsworth]

oh, if you really want to cool the whole mobo, videocard, etc, take a look into submersion cooling. It's a much more effective way of cooling everything. There are a few people who have done submersive cooling on the mobo to -40ish and then put DD on the CPU and videocard :eek:

Just be ready to spend a lot of money, make a mess, and have to replace a lot of capacitors to get it to work at that cold temperature.

I have to say its a much better method then cooling air. But it comes with so much bagage and problems you will be pagued with its still kind of a "show and tell one time only do then tear down project".

If direct die is not for you a chiller is a perfect compromise. Personally I think chillers are superior period. Cool multiple heat sourses, integrates with any water cooling system (with in reason), easily separated from the computer for portability and great stability dealing with heat spikes.

Best of all you can remove much more heat then with a DD system because the evap is limited by its size and the refrigerant being a gas in that point doesnt have great capacity for heat. With a chiller on the other hand you are limmited to the size of the waterblock but the medium is water (or better said water cut with something like ethanol/methanol) which can move a much much large amount of heat. Now you still have the refrigeration element but in the case of the chiller the evap is a large heat exchanger with alot of surface area and capable of moving lot more heat the a DD evap.

[jivetrky]

I'll say two things...

What everyone is telling GreenJelly is probably true, in that it would be very hard and not worth the time to make something like this work effectively.

And the other thing, I'm disgusted by the way GreenJelly is being treated here. There's no need for the mud slinging and quasi-name calling and the general sophomoric comments being made. Even going as far as pointing out spelling mistakes just to be derogatory. (Check out your own posts, there's spelling mistakes in them also, so let's not be ridiculous.)

The guy doesn't grasp how this stuff works. How about instead of trying to make an ass out of him (Or make yourself look smart, which is more of what the situation looks to be here) help him to fully understand why it wouldn't be feasible.

[Pf.Farnsworth]

I'll say two things...

What everyone is telling GreenJelly is probably true, in that it would be very hard and not worth the time to make something like this work effectively.

And the other thing, I'm disgusted by the way GreenJelly is being treated here. There's no need for the mud slinging and quasi-name calling and the general sophomoric comments being made. Even going as far as pointing out spelling mistakes just to be derogatory. (Check out your own posts, there's spelling mistakes in them also, so let's not be ridiculous.)

The guy doesn't grasp how this stuff works. How about instead of trying to make an ass out of him (Or make yourself look smart, which is more of what the situation looks to be here) help him to fully understand why it wouldn't be feasible.


Because he doesn’t want to listen to anyone. And what’s appalling is that he doesn’t want to listen nor respect those who have been doing for a long time and or for a living. The criticism is not a result of him not knowing or understanding something, it’s a result of how his attitude towards the whole thing.

Regarding my own spelling comment its well deserved. Its one thing to misspell derogatory for example, its another to say "lets make a crazy cascade that will hold 500 what’s". This isn’t a matter of being polite, in fact we are way past polite here. Manners come second on this forum, care to take a guess at what comes first? Safety. On a more serious board like XS this wouldn’t be tolerated for half as long as it was here.

Ignorance is no excuse for acting like an idiot regardless of the circumstances. Lets me enlighten you how this is dealt with in the real world. If you start talking like this to someone on a construction job site you will get your teeth knocked in. If you do this at a corporate job you will be shunned by your colleagues and treated like an ignorant child.

You do not come asking for help about something the people you are asking are doing professionally then act this way. Further more you do not come for help without a shred of knowledge on your own part. That shows extreme lack of any effort put in to the subject at hand on the behalf of the op. So while not made any effort to understand anything, asking for help, then telling the people you are asking they are wrong and suggesting they don’t know what they are talking about is just about the worst thing you can do and it deserves much much worse. Like I said before, on a more professional forum this would be dealt with quick fast and with no mushy feelings in mind.

[jivetrky]

No, actually your negative comments started in your first post. So this guy wasn't provoking you in any way. There was not one post made by you, without negative comments, that just directly told him why it wouldn't work. If I was him I'd be a little on the defensive side also, seeing as how all of your attempts at correcting him were done as if being done to purposefully belittle him. Obviously you know quite a bit about phase cooling, maybe instead of persecuting someone that doesn't, you could pass on a little of that knowledge?

I actually started picking apart your first post to show you all the snide comments in it. But it ended up being 75% of the post.
The bottom line here is that, yes the guy doesn't know that much about what he is asking. That is why he asked. There are MANY questions asked on this forum everyday that may seem silly to someone that knows the answer. But those people answer the questions nicely and most of the time actually try to teach the person a little something so that they understand the answer. Yes, it would be nice if all of those people researched what they were asking before posting. But if that was the case, there would be ZERO posts made on this forum because all of that information can be found (If you know what to look for) by way of Google.

And to correct you on a couple of things.

Flaming is NOT allowed on this forum and it probably the first rule stated in the guidelines, so keep it to yourself.
Manners come second on this board? I think 98% of the members here would disagree. I may have only been here for a year, but it seems to me that manners are what keep this board what it is.
And finally, this ISN'T XS. And that's why I'm here and not there. As I'm sure is the case with many other members. Here, we like to keep things civil and a tad lighter then they do there.



to GreenJelly:
Now I assume the Freezer alone wouldnt cool this system to sub ambient temps, and I also know that I run Watercooling. I would create a Bypase valve that would hook up to the freezer, and that would re-direct my water through a few phasechange based watercoolers mounted on the outside of the freezer. On the outside of the case. I hear thats what a few coolers from water fountains may be usefull.

So far the idea would be possible. The MAIN problem is the cost of it. Not just the hardware, being a freezer, water setup, and phase system for the water chiller. But the electrical draw would give you some painful electric bills. You would have the freezer, which would be drawing more electricity than a freezer in normal use because it would be under constant load, thus running at maximum for 24hrs a day. Whereas a normal freezer, cools the contents to the set temperatures and holds it there mainly with it's insulation, and secondly by starting the phase cooler as needed (which is not all the time, unless the freezer door is opened 10x a day)
Then there is the phase system for the water chiller, which is also running 24/7. Which is like running a window air conditioning unit all day. If you know what that is like, you know that it increases the electric bill quite a bit.
Finally, you have the computer system itself. Overclocking it to it's potential with a sub ambient system will draw quite a bit of power.


If I have subambient air temps in the freezer, and the freezer has auto defrost, I would assume that I could then not worry about condensation or frost, and wouldnt need thermal grease on my mobo cpu socket etc.

Auto defrost does not eliminate condensation in the way your are thinking it does. What auto defrost does is raise the temperature in the freezer enough that any frost that has formed will melt and drip down to a holding pan under the freezer. So this would be BAD for your computer. And there will be frost in the freezer as long as their is normal, household air in there. Even if you live in the desert, there's some minimal amount of moisture in the air. So unless the inside of the freezer was filled with dehymidified air, and never exposed to the air outside, you will have some amount of frost. And thus would have to insulate the components and use grease and all that other good stuff.

The freezer air would help keep the entire system cold, even the parts that are not normally cooled. And because of the waterchillers they would be able to add additional cooling to the water loop. Thus maybe eliminating the extreme stress of such a system.

This ambient cold air in the system could possibly help, but the help would be SO minimal that it would be next to pointless to do the freezer in the first place. All of the major heat generating components of the system would be cooled by the water chiller. Which in a system like this, would have to include things like harddrives, power supplies, etc. Otherwise there would be too much heat in there and the freezer would not be able to remove it fast enough. Or you'd have to use an industrial freezer as others have said.
But by the time that you use the water chiller on the components that would require it, the freezer becomes almost useless. (which is why people say that air conditioned systems [mini fridges, freezers, whatever] are not good ways of cooling a computer system.

If you could continue to drop the temps of the system, and add more and more phasechange coolers, you could get the liquid to drop below or at the temp of current phasechangers. Yet you would have the freedom to remove the case and run it at lower settings for lan parties.

You wouldn't exactly be able to add a phase change cooler to another phase change cooler. What you would do is have a cascade system, where there are multiple stages to the cooling. But it is all a single system, you can't just add another system onto it.
And as far as having the case removable for LAN parties. That would be a super pain in the butt. You would have to remove all of the cooling blocks and replace them with other coolers (Either air coolers, or some other self contained, transportable system). So you are looking at a couple of hours of work each time you want to goto a LAN.

Of course you would have to switch from water to a subambient cooling solution (like liquid Freon), except that it would have to remain liquid at around 110f.

I'm not real sure what you are getting at here. I think you are saying that you couldn't use water in the water chiller because it would freeze? And that is partially correct. In most water chiller applications, people add antifreeze (like the stuff in your car) to allow the water to go subambient without freezing. But that will only go so far, so people use alternate liquids. (I'm not real versed on the subject, so I don't know exactly what people use, but I think it's things like alcohol, etc)

The liquid issue is one area of concern, because it would have to be non-corrosive.

By adding Antifreeze to your water, it will make the water non-corrosive.

Another area of concern is which pumps could handle such low temps.

I believe that as long as the liquid stays a liquid and does not ice up, an outdoor pond type of pump would be fine. I'm sure there is a point at which it could be too cold for pumps like that, but you probably wouldn't be hitting temps that low with a water chiller.

I am wondering what others feel about a system. Honestly I dont think I will build it, unless I can find some parts in Craigslist and/or junkyards, and if I could do so cheaply. It also seems like allot of work, and may not be physically possible.

I think you are right here, and others have confirmed it also. It's just really not feasible.


I think such a system would be 100% more efficent then a peltier system, and you wouldnt have to worry about any condensation due to the fact that at 0c their will be no water in the air.

Well, I don't know what the efficiency would be as compared to a pelt. They both have positives and negatives. But one of their major negatives they share is power requirements.
And as far as condensation, it doesn't quite work like that. Like I said, unless the freezer was sealed from the outside and the air was processed outside of it to eliminate moisture, you WILL have water in the air, and thus you will have condensation. If you look in your home freezer you will definitely find some frost, and yet it is below 0°C.

I hear they use AirConditioners, which would work if placed mounted in a custom box. I could then make this box to fit the exact size of my case. I again dont know what the overall power of these systems could reach.

The air conditioners that people use in their computers, and that server rooms use, are not used to cool below ambient temps, just to keep things cooler than it would be without.

Tell me what you think...
Mike

[Immortal_Hero]

Because he doesn’t want to listen to anyone. And what’s appalling is that he doesn’t want to listen nor respect those who have been doing for a long time and or for a living. The flame is not a result of him not knowing or understanding something, it’s a result of how his attitude towards the whole thing.

Well that we all know you are the smart one here lest continue the thread. Some people do things like this for enjoyment, the fun of it but obviously fun is not in your dictionary. If it doesn't work that is not your business or money. If he has fun with it then more power to him. Show respect for some of the other members here. The reason for the flame is not important that fact that flaming is childish and rude is the point. Oh but one day it will all catch up with ya so keep it up!

[stratcatprowlin]

Manners come second on this forum, care to take a guess at what comes first? Safety. On a more serious board like XS this wouldn’t be tolerated for half as long as it was here.

OK then I will get it delt with.

[Silversinksam]

The flame is not a result of him not knowing or understanding something, it’s a result of how his attitude towards the whole thing.

.

I can say for a fact, Flaming is not allowed, knowingly or unknowingly. I'd appreciate it if you took a moment to read forum rule #1 (http://www.ocforums.com/announcement.php?f=66&a=5)

1. Absolutely NO personal attacks will be tolerated, no exceptions!

End of public service message

[Pf.Farnsworth]

If my blunt but honest and accurate feedback offended anyone I appologise :) Wont happen again.

No, actually your negative comments started in your first post. So this guy wasn't provoking you in any way. There was not one post made by you, without negative comments, that just directly told him why it wouldn't work. If I was him I'd be a little on the defensive side also, seeing as how all of your attempts at correcting him were done as if being done to purposefully belittle him. Obviously you know quite a bit about phase cooling, maybe instead of persecuting someone that doesn't, you could pass on a little of that knowledge?

I actually started picking apart your first post to show you all the snide comments in it. But it ended up being 75% of the post.
The bottom line here is that, yes the guy doesn't know that much about what he is asking. That is why he asked. There are MANY questions asked on this forum everyday that may seem silly to someone that knows the answer. But those people answer the questions nicely and most of the time actually try to teach the person a little something so that they understand the answer. Yes, it would be nice if all of those people researched what they were asking before posting. But if that was the case, there would be ZERO posts made on this forum because all of that information can be found (If you know what to look for) by way of Google.

And to correct you on a couple of things.

Flaming is NOT allowed on this forum and it probably the first rule stated in the guidelines, so keep it to yourself.
Manners come second on this board? I think 98% of the members here would disagree. I may have only been here for a year, but it seems to me that manners are what keep this board what it is.
And finally, this ISN'T XS. And that's why I'm here and not there. As I'm sure is the case with many other members. Here, we like to keep things civil and a tad lighter then they do there.




That seems to be the case on most boards untill someone looses an arm, then things get more serious. This isnt a big issue on this board because by the most part it harmless talk about hardware and software. However this section is an exception. This is a great show of total disreguard for member safty. You are right this isnt XS, they are a step ahead because they already had members do bad things because of the lack of discipline with reguard to new members. Thankfully that was put a stop to. Just like in a collage chemistry lab, once you are working with dangerous elements no foolishness or attitude is tollerated. And mind you school is the absolute learning environment yet they break it to the students harsh and fast and if the students dont wise up they are removed very fast. These is a reason for that.

As far as the content of my posts goes every shread of technical information, advice and show of direction was 100% ignored and "never" mentioned in the op's replys which mainly consisted of non related remarks and comments sugesting he knew better. This is well shown by other member responses:

Hmm.. someone that hasn't done the reaserch or work to build a single, single stage condensing unit and your wanting backers for your auto-cascade or up to 3 to 4 stage cascade experment?

I'm out :p

Then go try your theory out. We won't go where you live and try to stop you. Just don't come to us crying if it fails.

That may be true, but on many more occasions the critics are right.

Many people learn that this idea is impractical by attempting it or quickly seeing the amount of reasources it takes to successfully accomplish this task.


I don't see anyone who stated that this is impossible. Your argument has no basis nor relevance in this case.

The best arguement has yet to be made. Air is a poor conductor of heat. Answering that question raises another, "If your going to go to all that effort to get around the fact that air is a poor conductor, then why not try idea X that is much more practical?"

The truth is that these ideas are not new in any way nor uncommon. The reason that the thread "Why a mini fridge won't work" got stuck, wasn't because someone got bored and messed around. They did it because so many people have had pretty much the same idea that turns out not to work well if at all.

As Matttheniceguy said, If you find a way to do this, we will show you a cheaper way to do it better.


----------------

Regarding information provided by you. I hope this fits your bill or strictly technical non offencive post guide lines.

By adding Antifreeze to your water, it will make the water non-corrosive.

Inccorect. Water itself is not corrosive. It does cause oxidation on elements prone to it and adding antifreeze is only a temporary solution as the corrosion inhibitors dont work forever. System will also still be subject to wandering electrons, ie galvanic corrosion.

Well, I don't know what the efficiency would be as compared to a pelt. They both have positives and negatives. But one of their major negatives they share is power requirements.

Inccorect. They absolutly do not share power requirements. Pelts are much less efficient and per capita require a huge amount more energy to achieve the same effect.

----------------

Well that we all know you are the smart one here lest continue the thread. Some people do things like this for enjoyment, the fun of it but obviously fun is not in your dictionary. If it doesn't work that is not your business or money. If he has fun with it then more power to him. Show respect for some of the other members here. The reason for the flame is not important that fact that flaming is childish and rude is the point. Oh but one day it will all catch up with ya so keep it up!

Actually the op's post indicate the opposite of what you believe. He pretty clearly indicated he wanted to get very cold temperatures very cheaply. That being said his idea is not a valid solution.

Thanks for the flame there in the end, very not "childish and rude".



I can say for a fact, Flaming is not allowed, knowingly or unknowingly. I'd appreciate it if you took a moment to read forum rule #1 (http://www.ocforums.com/announcement.php?f=66&a=5)

1. Absolutely NO personal attacks will be tolerated, no exceptions!

End of public service message

I used poor wording. Its criticism on the baisis of the op's safty. However I realize I might have came off offencive and I would like to appologise for that. That being said this policy in this regard is a blunder in member safety on the bahalf of the board administration and is an embarrassment. And when something bad happens this administration will be an embarrassment to this entire community. Though not being an excuse for my rudeness for which I appologise again.

[jivetrky]

I hope this fits your bill or strictly technical non offencive post guide lines.

Please don't take this reply as a means to continue this bicker fest but, MAN, you are incapable of just being nice :)

Inccorect. Water itself is not corrosive. It does cause oxidation on elements prone to it and adding antifreeze is only a temporary solution as the corrosion inhibitors dont work forever. System will also still be subject to wandering electrons, ie galvanic corrosion.

I didn't quite word that correctly, so it did sound like I was saying the water was corrosive, but of course what I meant was that adding the antifreeze (which has anti corrosive additives) will help to eliminate corrosion.


Inccorect. They absolutly do not share power requirements. Pelts are much less efficient and per capita require a huge amount more energy to achieve the same effect.

And the wording I used here made it slightly unclear also, or just depends on how you read it. What I was trying to say is that both pelts and phase will definitely increase your electric bill. Not that they had similar power requirements, just that both are somewhat high. But, your right, a good pelt will draw more power than a phase system.



And as far as member safety, you can teach people that something is unsafe without flaming. You can even debate without flaming or otherwise being nasty. There's just no need for it in ANY case.

[Pf.Farnsworth]

Inccorect. They absolutly do not share power requirements. Pelts are much less efficient and per capita require a huge amount more energy to achieve the same effect.

And the wording I used here made it slightly unclear also, or just depends on how you read it. What I was trying to say is that both pelts and phase will definitely increase your electric bill. Not that they had similar power requirements, just that both are somewhat high. But, your right, a good pelt will draw more power than a phase system.

I'll acceppt that for 100 points if you put it in a form if a question ;) :thup:


And as far as member safety, you can teach people that something is unsafe without flaming. You can even debate without flaming or otherwise being nasty. There's just no need for it in ANY case.

The line between criticism and flame can be tricky but point taken :)

I hope this fits your bill or strictly technical non offencive post guide lines.

Please don't take this reply as a means to continue this bicker fest but, MAN, you are incapable of just being nice :)

And I tried this time sooo hard too lol. But you are right I get carried away.

Inccorect. Water itself is not corrosive. It does cause oxidation on elements prone to it and adding antifreeze is only a temporary solution as the corrosion inhibitors dont work forever. System will also still be subject to wandering electrons, ie galvanic corrosion.

I didn't quite word that correctly, so it did sound like I was saying the water was corrosive, but of course what I meant was that adding the antifreeze (which has anti corrosive additives) will help to eliminate corrosion.

Not true again. As it will only temporarily solve the problem and it wont solve the whole problem.

[jivetrky]

I'll acceppt that for 100 points if you put it in a form if a question ;) :thup:




The line between criticism and flame can be tricky but point taken :)



And I tried this time sooo hard too lol. But you are right I get carried away.



Not true again. As it will only temporarily solve the problem and it wont solve the whole problem.


What is then the best way to avoid corrosion?

[GreenJelly]

What is then the best way to avoid corrosion?

Probably saturation (added minerals) and high ph (around 8), with a few anti-corrosive agents.

Thats why allot of people suggest bottled water (poland springs) instead of distilled water. Bottled water contains minerals, which makes it less likely to grab onto more minerals.

The honest answer is that their are few people qualified enough to actually answer this question from a fair and complete chemistry point of view. We are not chemists and thus we make guesses.

Thats why I recommend the FluidXP, because it is made by a guy who is a very qualified chemist. I run PrimoICE, and I am happy. Though I am also afraid of algae, and dont have any information that these products provide protection to this. I have even written the companies themselves.

I would like to add an anti-algae agent to it, but I dont know of any that are not conductive.

Honestly corrosion in the pump is completely rediculous. The pumps are run and made for by aquariums that often run salt. The individual blocks are corrosive. I would assume that adding some oil or WD40 type materials will cut down on the corrosion, but I am not certain which ones would help and which ones will hurt. They also have to be soluble with water.

Anti-Freeze is a horrible anti-corrosive agent. Cars use high heat, and thick aluminum or steal structures. The high heat allows for beafer radiators. Anti-Freeze also adds ALLOT of stuff we just dont need in our computers, (like High boiling point additivies, and no freezing aditives).

People complain that these Fluid XP and PrimoChill aditives wont be anti-conductive after a few years of use. But after thinking about this, we must face the fact that very few people get leaks after a few months of usage. Therefor it is even possible to switch coolent to a more conductive formula, after you establish long term security with a few months of usage.

Corrosion will happen. It may not even be that bad. In Copper, corrosion occures due to oxidization and leads to tarnish then to a green color. No one knows the effect of this on the cooling loop, but you can always change parts or simply clean out the item. To untarnish copper, just use some salt and a tad of water... then rub it down... you can do this to the bottom of your pans to make them look new if you doubt me.

I know my cooling setups have excessive surface areas. This will lead to better performance under situations when corrosion occurs.

One of the best water proofing components is WD40, but again I have no Idea how this will result in a water cooling setup; so I will not recommend using it.

[jivetrky]

I just want to understand why normal car antifreeze isn't good enough for anti corosion. That's what most people use in their water loops and it seems to work well for everyone. Zerex says that you can go for 5 years without having to flush it's DexCool antifreeze. That's at a 50/50 dilution. I'd think that at a 10-20% it should handle a couple years or so without having to flush your loop. And I'd flush my loop once a year anyway just for gits and shiggles.

[Theorie]

i dont feel like reading this whole thread. but in reply:

built this back in 2002. worked great.

http://gallery.tfrascone.net/g2data/albums/mycomputer/pc_2002-10-02/inside-fridge.jpg

http://gallery.tfrascone.net/g2data/albums/mycomputer/pc_2002-10-02/installed-and-running.jpg

[Deadbot1_1973]

Wait a minute...

People... I assume we are people... and not some alien species...

Why do we tear this idea apart, instead of thinking of a way to make it work... We should be brainstorming ideas, and coming up with solutions. I think we should be positive, and not negative. If we really look at the problem, with the idea that it could be done, then we may end up finding out that it is possible.

Just my 2 cents.

GreenJelly this idea has been done and is done everyday. It's called the central server room. In most large companies there is a room with a dedicated air conditioner for that room only. This is set to cool to average temps because going subambient carries a load of liabilities.

It's not that the idea is impossible, quite to the contrary. The components you have been talking about using are not suited for the task. As I mentioned before, a household AC unit would be better suited than a freezer. Freezers reach much colder temps, but aren't designed with continuous heat input. An AC unit while not reaching those cold temps in a large room, would be capable of much cooler temps in a smaller enclosed space. In the end the idea you have kinda ends up being reinventing the wheel. Not that that is always bad(radials are better than bias ply after all).

To do what you want to do as I see it you would want the following......

A good window mount AC unit (5000 btu or above)
a small well insulated space for the main components(mainboard, PSU, hard disks) that is sealed against outside air.
Another small enclosure for optical drives and ports that need to be accessed from outside the cooled space.

construction would be simple. You would place the AC unit in the sealed cooling "room", ensuring that there are no air leaks(either in or out). You would place all components, route your wires to the external enclosure(again sealing up any air leaks), and place the external components.

Potential problems with the system include...
condensation in the sealed enclosed space due to a leak of warm external air.
loss of the portability factor(you aren't going to be able to do this without sealing it up and that means no placing it inside and taking it out on a regular basis)
High energy cost associated with the AC units running.

[GreenJelly]

GreenJelly this idea has been done and is done everyday. It's called the central server room. In most large companies there is a room with a dedicated air conditioner for that room only. This is set to cool to average temps because going subambient carries a load of liabilities.

It's not that the idea is impossible, quite to the contrary. The components you have been talking about using are not suited for the task. As I mentioned before, a household AC unit would be better suited than a freezer. Freezers reach much colder temps, but aren't designed with continuous heat input. An AC unit while not reaching those cold temps in a large room, would be capable of much cooler temps in a smaller enclosed space. In the end the idea you have kinda ends up being reinventing the wheel. Not that that is always bad(radials are better than bias ply after all).

To do what you want to do as I see it you would want the following......

A good window mount AC unit (5000 btu or above)
a small well insulated space for the main components(mainboard, PSU, hard disks) that is sealed against outside air.
Another small enclosure for optical drives and ports that need to be accessed from outside the cooled space.

construction would be simple. You would place the AC unit in the sealed cooling "room", ensuring that there are no air leaks(either in or out). You would place all components, route your wires to the external enclosure(again sealing up any air leaks), and place the external components.

Potential problems with the system include...
condensation in the sealed enclosed space due to a leak of warm external air.
loss of the portability factor(you aren't going to be able to do this without sealing it up and that means no placing it inside and taking it out on a regular basis)
High energy cost associated with the AC units running.

I mentioned the airconditioned server rooms... and I agree AC is the way to go... just need to trick the AC into running constantly:)

I was going to mount a AC into a portable Ice Chest. Intake Air and OutTake air will come from inside (closed loop). This would prevent wasted energy on the leak. Most AC's have a recycle air feature so this would work:)

It would also make opening the chest, and removing the PC for otherthings much easier. The only problem is that its not practicle for my life, but that doesnt make the discussion less interesting:)

It is well established that Freezers / Refrigerators are a bad idea, unless you plan to use industrial freezers, which could handle the load. I am sure they exist. I have even seen freezers available for electronic components. Search the web and you will see that their are people making air cooling elements for high end industrial electronic equipment.

Ive decided to create a Media Center instead. A MP3 music server built in with a duel or quad TV Tunner for recording TV shows. I can then put this on my TV in one room, then use my gaming machine for watching the shows recorded off that TV in my BedRoom. The great thing about this is that the techknowlodgy for HD-DVD and BLUE RAY on a computer are becoming standard. And Cable TV companies have a standard for interfacing with the Digital TV tunners. We will see this come out soon, and their is computer equipment available that will be able to work with this.

A properly built computer for this will last for 10-20 years, and because its a computer you can always upgrade and change it around:) But thats for another discussion. I wont be doing this until I get into a better place to live. Im already buying speakers though... high end ofcourse... I like B&W 600 serries.

Mike

[Pf.Farnsworth]

What is then the best way to avoid corrosion?

For one avoid mixing meltals and avoid highly reactive metals like aluminum. Second dont use water. From what I understand methanol/ethanol are alot easier in terms of oxidation. I am disscussing this with a chemist in depth on monday though.

[XeonStrikeForce]

Any thing is possible if you doen't know what you are talking about

[Pf.Farnsworth]

Any thing is possible if you doen't know what you are talking about

lol nice

[Gautam]

Goodness enough already. jivetkry's post was right on, but apparantly the point was lost on you (not that this would be the first time either) I'm tired of people using excuses of safety to withold information and belittle others. I'm sure you remember similar discussions occuring at XS, and even there most of the mods agreed that holding attitudes like yours is nothing but elitist. In fact, inflammatory posts aren't tolerated here nor there. Further, I hardly think that a degree in progress and the ability to use a compressor to melt an egg count as "doing this for a long time."

And let me tell ya, nothing gets under my skin more than BS forum politics. I don't care about whether OCF or XS is "better"...I've been a member of both communities for a lot longer than you and thats because both have a lot of talented and intelligent members, with a lot to teach and a lot to learn. Bringing politics like this in is something that a lot of people both here and there are guilty of...I have been as well in the past...and it tires me. Insulting any community in any way implies insulting every member of it; its degrading and childish. Even worse than Intel/AMD ATi/nVidia etc.


To the OP- I don't have much time to go into detail, but check out this project (http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=420654) by bazx to see what such a concept looks like when executed in reality.

[GreenJelly]

For one avoid mixing meltals and avoid highly reactive metals like aluminum. Second dont use water. From what I understand methanol/ethanol are alot easier in terms of oxidation. I am disscussing this with a chemist in depth on monday though.

methanol/ethanol are highly flamable, and horrible at absorbing heat. I cant say that it isnt bad for corrosion, but it is definately bad for the ruber seals on your pumps and your waterblock. Not a good idea...

[greenmaji]

@GreenJelly.. methanol or ethanol cut with water are the best (methanol being the better of the two) coolants for subabiant loops IE chillers.
We aren't in the water cooling section anymore ;)
http://www.ocforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=72 <- Extreme Cooling :D ;)

[speed bump]

Low boiling points make alcohol's cruddy for water cooling even with water, I ran some ethanol in my wc loop for a while and it eventually all evaporated off it didn't hurt anything but it evaporated off in about 1 week. Thats why I use Antifreeze in my loop. For applications involving low temps it works well becuase its at a lower temp and thus evaporates at a much slower rate.


At Farnsworth being an ME major can me a lot of things just cuase you are one doesn't make you automatically know all about HVAC. I'm an ME major and heck that doesn't mean one thing.

Finally corrosion ussually happens when you have CO2 and H20 together acting on a piece of metal to oxidize it. This process is ussually something involing electrochemistry so if you were bored and felt like working out the equations and such you could sit down and test charges and anodes and cathodes until you found the appropriate amount of charge to keep everything kosher. That would be the most effective form of corrosion resistence but it really isn't practical for anything other than long term installations and large installions that are hard to reach and usually sorounded by alot of grounding material.(they do this for underground storage tanks that hold gasoline and other fun stuff.

For everyone else especially watercoolers I would suggest just use antifreeze, they make non-toxic antifreeze that is fairly safe and when used in moderation for corrosion inhabition and if your going subzero it will lower your water FP some also.

Finally at the opp if you interested in an AC cooled computer I would talk to electron chaser or go to the project log section and search for his project denali. He is an EE and had some MEs that helped him out with the design of his case and it is a flat out amazing example of pulling something like this off.

[the garynator]

Ack, after searching for like 10-15 minutes for the cube fridge article I went to switch back to this tab and accidently dragged one of my bookmark toolbar links onto this tab and lost the links I already had in the quick reply box..Grrrr!!! lol.

Anyway, I figured these articles from the front page may be of some interest to you GreenJelly:
Cube-Fridge waterchiller - http://www.overclockers.com/tips798/ (I remember back when this was first written, oh how intrigued I was...I've always wanted to make one, but I've still never done it :( )

Budget water-chilling using a full-sized fridge/freezer : http://www.overclockers.com/tips1185/

And the pc in a fridge article speed bump mentioned: http://www.overclockers.com/articles975/

PS...Not related, but i think it's kinda funny...so I'm sitting here trying to find the c key to do a ctrl-c...so i'm looking down and I can't see s*** cuz it's dark and the letters on my keys aren't white...then I realize, "Hey, you've got a G15 you dumba**!, hit the little button w/ the light bulb on it" lmao...damn I'm overtired :D

Anyway, hope you enjoy those articles as much as I did back in the day
-Gary

[Pf.Farnsworth]

methanol/ethanol are highly flamable, and horrible at absorbing heat. I cant say that it isnt bad for corrosion, but it is definately bad for the ruber seals on your pumps and your waterblock. Not a good idea...

Thats mostly wrong.

First of all you dont use pure methanol or ethanol, and when cut with water they are very safe in terms of flamability.

Second methanol is very good at moving heat and has great capacity.

Third, no its just fine on the seals of every pump I have ever used.

Fourth, besides corrosion in a chiller you have to worry about your coolant freezing and antifreeze is the worst way to go about it killing your performance as well as limiting how low you can actually go. Water cut with methanol offers a much better medium for moving heat, overall helping the flow due to extreemly low viscosity, as well as helping keep more water in your mix instead of running mostly antifreeze and its additives which are much much worce at moving heat then methanol.

@GreenJelly.. methanol or ethanol cut with water are the best (methanol being the better of the two) coolants for subabiant loops IE chillers.

----------------------------------

Low boiling points make alcohol's cruddy for water cooling even with water, I ran some ethanol in my wc loop for a while and it eventually all evaporated off it didn't hurt anything but it evaporated off in about 1 week. Thats why I use Antifreeze in my loop. For applications involving low temps it works well becuase its at a lower temp and thus evaporates at a much slower rate.


At Farnsworth being an ME major can me a lot of things just cuase you are one doesn't make you automatically know all about HVAC. I'm an ME major and heck that doesn't mean one thing.

Finally corrosion ussually happens when you have CO2 and H20 together acting on a piece of metal to oxidize it. This process is ussually something involing electrochemistry so if you were bored and felt like working out the equations and such you could sit down and test charges and anodes and cathodes until you found the appropriate amount of charge to keep everything kosher. That would be the most effective form of corrosion resistence but it really isn't practical for anything other than long term installations and large installions that are hard to reach and usually sorounded by alot of grounding material.(they do this for underground storage tanks that hold gasoline and other fun stuff.

For everyone else especially watercoolers I would suggest just use antifreeze, they make non-toxic antifreeze that is fairly safe and when used in moderation for corrosion inhabition and if your going subzero it will lower your water FP some also.


Poor sealing of your loop by you is your fault not ethanols.

That's incorrect. Neither CO2 nor H2O is required for oxidation to occur.

Antifreeze is the single worst thing you can use in your chiller in every possible way.

I never said I know everything, I was simply replying to this remark made by someone who doesnt know anything making this remark at someone who at the very least knows more.

"Wow, Farnsworth is one of thoose guys that critisizes everyone and everybody. Allot of what you say is correct, but allot of it is so wrong." -GreenJelly

I hardly think that a degree in progress and the ability to use a compressor to melt an egg count as "doing this for a long time."

I hardly think blue stars make you an exception to the above posted forum rule #1. I am also confused about what you mean as I was refering to every one here not myself in particular when I said doing this for a long time. Personaly I have been in school for 3 years and doing this as a hobby for 2, I guess thats not very long but its long enough when someone who never touched it or anything related and who knows nothing critisizes your in that tone. I am not sure what you mean by melting eggs? I dont think you could cook very well on most compressors :confused:

[jivetrky]

According to this frontpage article (http://www.overclockers.com/articles609/index.asp) from a while back, methanol and Ethanol are pretty decent for Thermal conductivity. Mix that with their lower freezing points and you have great medium for extreme cooling

[GreenJelly]

According to this frontpage article (http://www.overclockers.com/articles609/index.asp) from a while back, methanol and Ethanol are pretty decent for Thermal conductivity. Mix that with their lower freezing points and you have great medium for extreme cooling

Its not as good as water. You would be better off buying a commercial product like primoICE and/or Fluid XP

Their is questions about its inability to remain non-conductive over a period of time. But leaks tend to happen within the first few days, and can occur up to a few months. After that it tends to be very unlikely a leak will develop.

Anyways, Alchool IS NOT safe on Rubber or Plastic. The hoses will be fine, and most pumps might be fine... hell the whole system may be ok, but why would you use such a substance when their are better choices.

Mike

[greenmaji]

GreenJelly.. different applciation, water freezes

Natural rubber is nearly non-existant in pre-manifactured products anymore, there is only three factories that make natural rubber seals anymore (all being owned by Parker Seals http://www.parker.com/SG/ ), one of wich my mother and grandmother worked in, they just arn't used much anymore.

[matttheniceguy]

I don't believe primoICE or Fluid XP do anything to lower the freezing point of water. This makes both compleatly useless for most chillers out there as the whole point is to get well below 0.

That is why people use antifreeze, or methanol/ethanol. They all considerably reduce the freezing point of water allowing you to run coolant that is still a liquid.

[jivetrky]

Its not as good as water. You would be better off buying a commercial product like primoICE and/or Fluid XP

Their is questions about its inability to remain non-conductive over a period of time. But leaks tend to happen within the first few days, and can occur up to a few months. After that it tends to be very unlikely a leak will develop.

Anyways, Alchool IS NOT safe on Rubber or Plastic. The hoses will be fine, and most pumps might be fine... hell the whole system may be ok, but why would you use such a substance when their are better choices.

Mike

No, they are not as good as water, but since we are talking about extreme cooling here, you are getting into way sub zero temperatures. So water with antifreeze is only going to get you down to probably around -30c. Whereas An alcohol based liquid could go much lower.

[greenmaji]

And the antifreeze mixture at those temperatures is going to be like pumping mud.. thats why alcohol based coolants perform better for sub-ambaint aplictions.. and alcohol can go down to -72C and further if you have a reason to run it 100% (wich 99.9999% of the time you won't, that some serious chilling :eek: )

*edit*typo*/edit*

[Gnufsh]

Isn't some antifreeze methanol? Or was it at some point? Most of what I see now is ethylene glycol, but I think methanol was/is used at one point as well.

[Pf.Farnsworth]

Its not as good as water. You would be better off buying a commercial product like primoICE and/or Fluid XP

Water freezes, you will not run water in a chiller reguardless.

PrimoICE and/or Fluid XP like stated above are utterly useless unlese you like paying alot of money for colored water with some additives that dont do anything. I have tested it and came to conclusion its no more then clever advertisement.


Anyways, Alchool IS NOT safe on Rubber or Plastic. The hoses will be fine, and most pumps might be fine... hell the whole system may be ok, but why would you use such a substance when their are better choices.

Mike

Incorrect. The advances in both materials have dramatically changed their usability. The rubbers that degrade to common chemicals like that have been long abandoned in most applications.

Because there arent any better choises if you listen to everyone here.

Isn't some antifreeze methanol? Or was it at some point? Most of what I see now is ethylene glycol, but I think methanol was/is used at one point as well.

This is correct.

[greenmaji]

Isn't some antifreeze methanol? Or was it at some point? Most of what I see now is ethylene glycol, but I think methanol was/is used at one point as well.

Its toxic *so use extream CARE!!*, it very well could be an ingredent of some anti-freeze mixes (or used to be).

[Pf.Farnsworth]

Its toxic *so use extream CARE!!*, it very well could be an ingredent of some anti-freeze mixes.

Windex is toxic too, and so are is almost antyhing around you if taken internally. This is no different.

But if you are that worried about drinking methanol out of your coolant system... you can use ethanol, thats what drinking alcohol is, atleast you will get drunk :rolleyes:

[greenmaji]

Windex is toxic too, and so are is almost antyhing around you if taken internally. This is no different.

But if you are that worried about drinking methanol out of your coolant system... you can use ethanol, thats what drinking alcohol is, atleast you will get drunk :rolleyes:

It's not so much me as "take extream care" to make sure you system doesn't leak (yes you should do this anyway) and your pet or child ends up consuming some of it. Much like some of the water cooling accedents with toxic antifreeze.

And ethanol is just alcohol thats been made "undrinkable" I don't think I would like to test the federal governments measures of "undrinkable" thanks ;)

[David]

It's not so much me as "take extream care" to make sure you system doesn't leak (yes you should do this anyway) and your pet or child ends up consuming some of it. Much like some of the water cooling accedents with toxic antifreeze.

And ethanol is just alcohol thats been made "undrinkable" I don't think I would like to test the federal governments measures of "undrinkable" thanks ;)

As far as I am aware I think they add some sort of bitter flavour to it that makes it taste disgusting.

I work in a lab where we use gallons of ethanol every month and we have to log what each bottle was used for, because it's taxed heavily in the UK if it's used for human consumption. There are various grades of ethanol, many will be ~95% ethanol especially HPLC grade stuff which *cannot* have impurities or it will screw with our results. Industrial grade ethanol does often have some methanol in it which will make you blind. It all depends how pure it is.

[Pf.Farnsworth]

It's not so much me as "take extream care" to make sure you system doesn't leak (yes you should do this anyway) and your pet or child ends up consuming some of it. Much like some of the water cooling accedents with toxic antifreeze.

And ethanol is just alcohol thats been made "undrinkable" I don't think I would like to test the federal governments measures of "undrinkable" thanks ;)

You are a bit off. Ethanol is ussualy drinkable unlese its some industrial mix/grade like David pointed out.

What you refer to as ethanol that was made undrinkable (so it cant be taxed like boose) is called "denatured alcohol".

Either way I dont see why you would be drinking your coolant? That makes as much sence as worring you will eat the insulation in your walls (which has glass particles in it).

[greenmaji]

You are a bit off. Ethanol is ussualy drinkable unlese its some industrial mix/grade like David pointed out.

What you refer to as ethanol that was made undkinkable (so it cant eb taxed like boose) is called "denatured alcohol".

Either way I dont see why you would be drinking your coolant? That makes as much sence as worring you will eat the insulation in your walls (which has glass particles in it).

Ahh see, I wasnt aware that there was much of a differnce between ethonol and denatured alcohol.

And if you read my above post I explained that I am not worried that anyone will be drinking there coolant, accdents happen, leaks happen.. I was just saying be cautious.

And no if fiberglass insulation gets left out in the open (that and walls don't leak insulation like a coolant loop can leak coolant) Im not affraid that my cat is going to get sick from eating some of it. poor analogy.

[Super Nade]

Hmm, since this thread has been reported, two moderators are watching this thread. Please keep it on topic and to the point, i.e sticking solely to technical content. :)

Pf.Fansworth, I would strongly suggest that you edit your signature. You know what I am talking about.

[GreenJelly]

I don't believe primoICE or Fluid XP do anything to lower the freezing point of water. This makes both compleatly useless for most chillers out there as the whole point is to get well below 0.

That is why people use antifreeze, or methanol/ethanol. They all considerably reduce the freezing point of water allowing you to run coolant that is still a liquid.

http://www.primochill.com/index.php?action=item&id=1651&prevaction=category&previd=9&prevstart=0

PC ICE is specially formulated with lubricating properties to increase pump life and contains corrosive inhibiting ingredients to cut down on internal build up and galvanic corrosion. PC ICE is safe on all plastic, rubber and miscellaneous gasket materials as well as Non-Toxic, biodegradable and environmentally safe. PC ICE is formulated for high flow pumps and is not prone to mechanical sheering. It is as clear and acceptable to use with color adding dye for aesthetic purposes. PC ICE has a 3 year shelf life, is non-conductive and has a freeze point below -60F


http://www.fluidxp.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=FAQ&file=index&myfaq=yes&id_cat=1#16


· Can Fluid XP+ coolant be frozen?

A: Yes, at -11 degrees F. However, after it is frozen and then thaws out it has not changed in its properties.


And the winner is: PrimoICE for you Peltier users
also, neither use alchool.

Both are non-toxic, and the maker of Fluid XP+ has been known to drink the stuff to prove it.

[XeonStrikeForce]

Methanol = Lethal
Ethylene Glycol = Lethal
Iso propyle = Toxic not immediately deadly

Propylene Glycol = safe but not good idea to drink it
Ethanol = Safe, still a bad idea to drink too much

This to avoid: Polycarbonate tops, Rubber O-Rings, Plastics not rated for any thing below -20C.

[Pf.Farnsworth]

Methanol = Lethal
Ethylene Glycol = Lethal
Iso propyle = Toxic not immediately deadly

Propylene Glycol = safe but not good idea to drink it
Ethanol = Safe, still a bad idea to drink too much

This to avoid: Polycarbonate tops, Rubber O-Rings, Plastics not rated for any thing below -20C.

Such o-rings are not used in any pump which is rated to take the chiller temperatures so its not an issue. If it is the pump will fail long before due to temperatures alone.

PS:
My pencil is lethal too depening on how its used. Its just natural selection.



Pf.Fansworth, I would strongly suggest that you edit your signature. You know what I am talking about.

Had that for a while, never thought that would be an issue Nade. Sorry, edited.



PC ICE is specially formulated with lubricating properties to increase pump life and contains corrosive inhibiting ingredients to cut down on internal build up and galvanic corrosion. PC ICE is safe on all plastic, rubber and miscellaneous gasket materials as well as Non-Toxic, biodegradable and environmentally safe. PC ICE is formulated for high flow pumps and is not prone to mechanical sheering. It is as clear and acceptable to use with color adding dye for aesthetic purposes. PC ICE has a 3 year shelf life, is non-conductive and has a freeze point below -60F

And the winner is: PrimoICE for you Peltier users
also, neither use alchool.

Both are non-toxic, and the maker of Fluid XP+ has been known to drink the stuff to prove it.



If you are using methanol water mix you dont need their inhibitors that hurt the coolants heat moving potential.

A type of pump you would use for a chiller will outlast most other components in your system and the fact that they "claim" it helps pump life is useless since the pumps last 10-15 years. While the additives for "claimed" pump life hurt your performance even more.

Methanol and ethanol even pure (and we are talking about a 40% cut at most here) is totaly safe on the type of pump you would use. The rubbers and plastics that do not sit well with methanol are almost non existant.

While ethanol is safe on just about anything to begin with, after all unlike FluidXP coolant maker, most of the world drinks Ethanol in their alcoholic beverages.

Mechanical sheering of coolant? Thats an outright advertisement technique, I would know its my friends major. They put things most people dont even understand but sounds good to apeal to people. That doesnt really mean anything in this application, especialy in comparison to ethanol or methanol.

Both methanol and ethanol are found in the natural occurance. As for the FluidXP it doesnt, I would expect a product like that to be atleast biodegradable. Thats earns them no merit.

3 year shelf life? Ethanol/methanol shelf life is infinite.

Also its not non conductive, it starts as a very poor conductor and gets worce from there. I tested it on an old computer and fried it, but it was expected.

[GreenJelly]

My only reason to post that was for the temp rating...

The pump stuff may be true, but how much time are you giving it... these pumps where designed to pump SALT water and Fish POOP... cant get much more corrosive and mechanically unfriendly then that... so you are right. A claim of "Longer Lasting Pump Life" is kinda funny and silly.

But again, Like I said, I only posted that to show people that this stuff is good for TEC units. It also beats the pants off of a 50/50 alchool/water mixture as far as heat absorption.

The PrimoIce stuff is also biodegradable and so is the FluidXP. Also, the lifespan of ethonal is not infinate, not because the substance degrades but because it starts to pick up things and becomes dirty.

I am sure PrimoIce and FluidXP are the same way.

I use to use Mobil one Tri-Synthetic on my car. It was good for well after 10,000 miles... and Cost a ton. I used K&N oil filters, which is also very expensive. I changed my oil myself and ended up paying allot more then people going to quicky lube. Yet I changed my oil every 3-6K miles. Why? Because I drove hard, hot, and fast. I also raced the car, and would often have the engine near redline more then the adverage user. I felt safer with clean oil, because I didnt need the little metal shear's and shards poaking around in places they didnt belong.

Mike

[Pf.Farnsworth]

My only reason to post that was for the temp rating...

The pump stuff may be true, but how much time are you giving it... these pumps where designed to pump SALT water and Fish POOP... cant get much more corrosive and mechanically unfriendly then that... so you are right. A claim of "Longer Lasting Pump Life" is kinda funny and silly.

But again, Like I said, I only posted that to show people that this stuff is good for TEC units. It also beats the pants off of a 50/50 alchool/water mixture as far as heat absorption.

The PrimoIce stuff is also biodegradable and so is the FluidXP. Also, the lifespan of ethonal is not infinate, not because the substance degrades but because it starts to pick up things and becomes dirty.

I am sure PrimoIce and FluidXP are the same way.

I use to use Mobil one Tri-Synthetic on my car. It was good for well after 10,000 miles... and Cost a ton. I used K&N oil filters, which is also very expensive. I changed my oil myself and ended up paying allot more then people going to quicky lube. Yet I changed my oil every 3-6K miles. Why? Because I drove hard, hot, and fast. I also raced the car, and would often have the engine near redline more then the adverage user. I felt safer with clean oil, because I didnt need the little metal shear's and shards poaking around in places they didnt belong.

Mike


Oh well then more power to you :) , I thought this was about a chiller (personal love lol).

As for the feezing point I screwed up bad lol. -60F is what -51C which is good, I typed 15C for some reason, my bad. Surpised no one cought it ><

There is a catch though. The deal with that fluid from my expirience if my memory serves me right was this. It does freeze at -50C maybe, however from what I remember its not really any better then antifreeze in this respect as it got thick when it got below -20C which is one of my main reasons for using alcohols.

I strongly dought it "beats the pants off " 50/50 water/methaol mix. Let me explain. I personaly do not know whate exactly goes in to either of those compounds but I am pretty sure they are Propylene Glycol baised or similar. Meaning no its not better for moving heat. Look at the methanol data sheet, it is very good at moving heat, not as good as water but almost next best thing. Also taking in to account those coolants getting thick when they get cold (atleast chiller cold, maybe ok for pelts) they kill the flow and your temperatures with it.

In a clean loop at least in my personal expirience my coolant stays very clean, but I make sure of that by flushing the system very well in the begining and the alcohol keeps the biological growth out.

[matttheniceguy]

For a pelt, your water temperature will actually be quite warm (warmer than with just water cooling). I would think you would want to use as close to pure water as you can, maybe with a bit of water wetter or something else. If fluid XP or whatever else actually is better for water cooling then they would be the best option for this, but I haven't seen any real data that actually says they are better than water.

[Voodoo Rufus]

Subscribed.

Some good information here, as long as the discussion remains civilized.

[Pf.Farnsworth]

For a pelt, your water temperature will actually be quite warm (warmer than with just water cooling). I would think you would want to use as close to pure water as you can, maybe with a bit of water wetter or something else. If fluid XP or whatever else actually is better for water cooling then they would be the best option for this, but I haven't seen any real data that actually says they are better than water.

You're right I didnt even think about that. Why would you want low freeze point coolant if it will be well above 0c?

[greenmaji]

You're right I didnt even think about that. Why would you want low freeze point coolant if it will be well above 0c?

I didn't think about it either, and I'm willing to bet GreenJelly wasn't aware of it so he wouldn't have known that there wasn't a reason to investigate low freezing point coolants.

[Pf.Farnsworth]

lol, I was going though my pictures and bumped in to this one. I thought it would be appropriate to the disscusion. This is what happens to those coolants in even weak chillers. Its like a slushy, very soft :)

http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/7672/145lw.jpg

[matttheniceguy]

mmmmm.... looks delicious :drool:

Fun fact of the day - Ice on your evaporator works like insulation, leading to worse performance of the system and HIGHER coolant temperatures.

[XeonStrikeForce]

Such o-rings are not used in any pump which is rated to take the chiller temperatures so its not an issue. If it is the pump will fail long before due to temperatures alone.

PS:
My pencil is lethal too depening on how its used. Its just natural selection.


Thats weaponry your talking about any thing is a weapon indeed, here we are talking about passive things, in this exact case poisens. Some are incidius as they say they are safe by the sweet taste but yet quite deadly. What I was saying was more of a fast ref for the newbs.

[XeonStrikeForce]

Fluid Xp is crap even for water cooling and pelts plain and simple. You get the same effect by adding a bit of propylen glycol and watter wetter to your loop for much less. Befor I used to water cool 400AMP Triaks and MOSFets small scale computer cooling tossed me for a bit of a loop but then I figured how to scale it down and been firing out systems since. GreenJelly this is NOTHING like auto motive systems, this is the angle you seem to be taking it from by the looks of one of your posts.

In auto you are dealing with a heater core rejecting 1Kw at a 100C Delta or so. Here the delta is of only a couple or more degrees thus the over all capacity of the same sized core is less, same as how differan't the choise of coolants is

[GreenJelly]

I didn't think about it either, and I'm willing to bet GreenJelly wasn't aware of it so he wouldn't have known that there wasn't a reason to investigate low freezing point coolants.

I say put 2 pelts on top of each other. Then the cold side will get bellow 0c

and Ive heard people say their pelt systems get bellow 0c But not by much. So I wouldnt disagree with the above statement:)

Though with 2 pelts, I bet, and I dont really know, that the temp would get REALLY cold.

[Immortal_Hero]

I say put 2 pelts on top of each other. Then the cold side will get bellow 0c

and Ive heard people say their pelt systems get bellow 0c But not by much. So I wouldnt disagree with the above statement:)

Though with 2 pelts, I bet, and I dont really know, that the temp would get REALLY cold.
I am afraid it does not work that way. Take a 200 watt pelt for example. A 200 watt pelt would absorb 200 watts of heat on the cold side and put off 200 watts of heat on the hot side (assuming perfect efficiency, which will never happen). Stack 2 200 watt pelts on top of each other and you only have 200 watts of maximum thermal conductivity and a fire hazard. The first pelt could absorb 200 watts of heat from the heat source but it would put off 200 watts of heat on the other side. On the hot side of pelt 1 would be the cold side of pelt 2 which again could only absorb 200 watts of heat on its cold side and put it off on it's hot side. You could not move anymore heat so temps would not be lower. The system would probably get logged with heat and end up over heating possibly causing a fire. Stacking 2 200 watt pelts would allow only 200 watts of heat to be moved. The only way to get 400 watts of heat moved would be to use a 400 watt pelt. Then a heat removal system (ie. HSF, water cooler) would need to be capable of removing 400 watts of heat from the pelt. This entire post is assuming that pelts actually function at maximum efficiency but in reality a pelt needs to be 2 to 4 times the size of the heat output of the heat source. Example: Processor puts off 50 watts of heat you would need a 100 to 200 watt pelt.

[matttheniceguy]

GreenJelly, your a bit off on how a pelt system works. It is quite possible to achieve temperatures on the CPU below 0c with a good enough system, but this is not the water temperature. I pelt is a solid state heat pump. In simple terms, is sucks heat in one side and spits it out the other. In addition to the heat it sucked up, it also spits out some extra heat due to inefficiency. You put the cold side of the pelt on your CPU and is sucks up CPU heat and hopefully gives you a nice CPU temperature. The heat from the cpu, and the extra heat from inefficiency then exit the pelt on the hot side. All this heat is what makes the hot side so hot. You then use water cooling to cool the hot side of the pelt.

To compare, in regular water cooling your waterblock has to remove the heat from the processor (lets say 100 watts)

In water cooling while using a pelt, the waterblock has to remove the heat of the processor PLUS the energy the pelt uses. Since you generally need a pelt of twice the power of the CPU, for a 100 watt cpu, you need a 200 watt pelt, and your waterblock is left with 300 watts of heat to remove. This is why when using a pelt you actually have higher water temperatures than with water cooling alone.

[Moto7451]

I wanted to add something to the possible materials to avoid list. Delrin which is used to make tops and housings in a lot of things we use (i.e. the casing on the Liang D5) and at temperatures below (I believe) -20°F it becomes brittle. Also there are some little used types of O-Rings that become brittle under negative temperatures (polyester based?).

[Pf.Farnsworth]

Thats why I always say using the pumps sold for pc watercooling, on chillers is not a good idea. Spur for an iwaki, and if thats to much panworld PX40 is a great deal. O-rings leak sometimes still but not as bad. Some pvc glue or other sealant is good to have where the pump body meets the impreller housing.