the 8800's

[ChinStrap]

With all this talk of CPU bottlenecking the new 8800GTX – I think it’s time for Intel and AMD to start playing catch up.

I noticed when k|ngp|n made is 23000 run he had a Quad-Core OCed hardcore. Something to the tune of 4 Ghz (not for sure) – I read in a similar test using dry ice someone had the 8800’s scoring 22300 in 3Dmark06 – again with a Quad-core Oced to around 4 Ghz.


I’m not very schooled in whats coming up from Ati – I know people have been talking about the r600 core sometime in February. But this card – even if it’s on par with the 8800’s is going to be killing CPU’s as well.



Part of this intimidates me, for one – im two pieces into my next build, and two I don’t wanna have the newest stuff out just to maximize the potential of my rig.

random thoughts... thanks for listening

[MadMan007]

I don't think the cards are bottlenecked by CPUs, read Dominick's thread about it. The other thing to remember is 3DM is an artificial benchmark that includes a CPU score so faster CPU speed gives a higher score regardless of whether the card is bottlenecked. You have to look at the scores that are for the GPU only.

Also even if 3DM is truly CPU bottlenecked it probably doesn't translate into real games. When you play real games and have excess GPU power you turn up the quality settings, resolution, AA, AF, HDR and push the bottleneck back toward the GPU.

[Phrenetical]

MadMan is totally correct...

But dom also has a killer CPU, i personally dont think the northwood 2.67 will be much use with the 8800gtx, even though the CPU bottlenecking has been disproved with C2D and a few other CPU's, you have a relatively old cpu and i rkn probably not enough to utilise the potential of an 8800,

But as madman said you can always crank the AA and AF.

[Spoudazo]

Also, DX10 is about making the CPU work less, so this bottleneck will probably be gone with DX10.

Watch this ATI DX10 demonstration, ;)

Scroll down to the 4/27/2006 On the Spot
http://www.gamespot.com/videos.html?type=videos&category=On+the+Spot
:)

[ChinStrap]

you have a relatively old cpu and i rkn probably not enough to utilise the potential of an 8800.


no no no no - the rig in my sig is what im working with now, i plan on getting a c2d for my next machine that is in the works. i would mind having a SLI 8800GTX - but thats hardcore cash.... the good thing is my rig im running now has lasted me 4 years so i hope the new one will do the same.

thank you guys for the feedback i watched that video and looked around at some of the others too. it's nice to know DX10 isnt going to be so CPU demanding.


part of me still wouldnt mind seeing that 23000 in 3dm06 :bday:


im looking forward to the next 3dmark - im sure it will have DX10 support. i think that might give us a better understanding of the cards true potential.

[RangerXLT8]

SAd thing is games are not multi threaded yet. So quad-core is excellent for video encoding and 3dmark06.

Does anyone know if Crysis will utilize 4 threads?

And the next 3dmark will bring these cards to their knees just like EVERY other new 3dmark has done.

[Phrenetical]

They say crysis and ut2k7 will have multiple threads for the game as a whole but not necessarily the game...

like, video/sound/physics split over three threads if the cpu is cpable. So you will see some performance increase but it wont be like 3*times if you know what i mean.

MEans i have one core left over for video encoding while im playing 2k7 once i get my hands on a q6600

[Burninate]

But there will always be a bottle neck somewhere. What's the difference if it is the GPU or the CPU now? When we were GPU bottlenecked, we were calling for faster GPUs, now we're calling for faster CPUs. I like that technology is being pushed and I do hope that AMD answers with a new CPU that does not bottleneck the next-gen GPUs.

[Spoudazo]

Again, I think DX10 will remove this CPU bottleneck, if there really is one in the first place. :)

[Dan0512]

Again, I think DX10 will remove this CPU bottleneck, if there really is one in the first place. :)

There's no bottleneck... we're just getting fooled by the way 3dmark 06 factors in the CPU scores.

dan

[SeasonalEclipse]

If anything, the softwear companies need to catch up now.

[>HyperlogiK<]

True, but short of Borland or M$ creating some uber compiler, there is only so much catching up that they can practically do.

[Falcon-K]

no no no no - the rig in my sig is what im working with now, i plan on getting a c2d for my next machine that is in the works. i would mind having a SLI 8800GTX - but thats hardcore cash.... the good thing is my rig im running now has lasted me 4 years so i hope the new one will do the same.

thank you guys for the feedback i watched that video and looked around at some of the others too. it's nice to know DX10 isnt going to be so CPU demanding.


part of me still wouldnt mind seeing that 23000 in 3dm06 :bday:


im looking forward to the next 3dmark - im sure it will have DX10 support. i think that might give us a better understanding of the cards true potential.


I wouldnt get SLI for 8800GTX, have you seen the results and reviews for it?

FEAR 1600x1200 res. 4X AA = 84fps, does it need to be much better?

Only way I would recommend getting one is if you have one of those 30" dell lcds and need to run 2560x1600 res.

Maybe in 2 years you might start needing some of that power but why not just buy a new videocard that outperforms 2x8800GTX SLI?

[Joeteck]

I don't think the cards are bottlenecked by CPUs.

The CPU is the bottleneck.

1. Take any system AMD 64 or Intel Pentium D. Put the fastest Video card you own in it. Benchmark it.

2. Upgrade to a Core 2 duo anything, and install the same video card in it.

I garantee your score will increase by alot.

Video cards today are MUCH more powerful than any CPU can push it. Even with the 7800GTX, if there was a 10Ghz CPU, that would not even be enough to fully push the card 100%.

So that being said. I'm 100% convinced that the 8800GTX will not be a strong buy for anyone. It is nice that Nvidia produced a DX10 part, but for what? DX10 is only available with Vista, which has not been released yet. So whats the point? I'm fully aware of what the card can do. It is very amazing, and impressive, no doubt. The want is there, but no need... SLI as well. The card will need 185 watts or 14.5 Amps on the 12volt rail. Thats just nuts... So if you wanted to go SLI, two cards will suck up 29 Amps. Again, is it worth it? I guess for bragging rights, but you'll need to buy a least a 610 watt PCP&C power supply to run it. The 8800GTX is 50% faster than my 7900GTX. Once I upgrade to the Core 2 duo, I'll be able to push my card much harder. SLI boards are only available, so I'm waiting for the 650i chipset. Nvidia has proven that a single card solution will work wonders. We just need the CPU's to push more, and if that is done, Many people with a 7600GS can still enjoy gaming with the big boys...

[dominick32]

After reviewing the 8800GTX I tend to only feel the GPU would be bottlenecked by a stock/low frequency Athlon/Opteron or Intel (non c2d). The Core 2 Duo Processors are definitely not a bottleneck for the 8800 series but as you increase clockspeed, its only natural that your overall scores will increase. Including GPU performance. So, could you not be fully utilizing your new 8800 gpu with an athlon/opteron or non c2d Intel. Absolutely, its like having a supercharged engine with a restricted air filter and mass air sensor. As soon as you put on a larger K&N and MAF it allows the motor to breathe much better. <---excluding C2D's

Read my results here: http://www.svtsnake.com/ocforums/index.html or read my other thread in this section.

Dom

[>HyperlogiK<]

It is nice that Nvidia produced a DX10 part, but for what? DX10 is only available with Vista, which has not been released yet.

Just to be pedantic, Vista Final has been released to a limited number of companies in the software assurance program and CompUSA will be selling it retail from the 30th Nov. Admittedly though there aren't any games for it.

[Burninate]

Just to be pedantic, Vista Final has been released to a limited number of companies in the software assurance program and CompUSA will be selling it retail from the 30th Nov. Admittedly though there aren't any games for it.

I agree.... Shallow and pedantic. Sorry couldn't help the Family Guy quote :shrug:

[squads]

After reviewing the 8800GTX I tend to only feel the GPU would be bottlenecked by a stock/low frequency Athlon/Opteron or Intel (non c2d). The Core 2 Duo Processors are definitely not a bottleneck for the 8800 series but as you increase clockspeed, its only natural that your overall scores will increase. Including GPU performance. So, could you not be fully utilizing your new 8800 gpu with an athlon/opteron or non c2d Intel. Absolutely, its like having a supercharged engine with a restricted air filter and mass air sensor. As soon as you put on a larger K&N and MAF it allows the motor to breathe much better. <---excluding C2D's

Read my results here: http://www.svtsnake.com/ocforums/index.html or read my other thread in this section.

Dom

Do you think you could do FEAR benchmarks using different CPU clock frequencies? That would actually show if it is bottlenecked by the CPU and at what clockspeeds. I don't know how you can conclude that it is not bottlenecked using the tests you ran. It was obviously scaling at a high rate with CPU speed in 3Dmark, almost to the point where it seems limited by the CPU.

The one statement you made in the article struck me as a contradiction:

"Intel Core 2 Duo's definitely will not bottleneck an 8800GTX setup, but as proven: higher clockspeed on your rig ultimately equals more potential and headroom to be released from the 8800 line of GPU's."

Releasing headroom and potential with higher clockspeeds essentially means it is CPU limited or am I missing some angle here? Its true that 3Dmark will generally scale with CPU speed no matter what, so what we need is real gaming benchmarks at different CPU speeds to see if any gain is seen at higher clockspeeds. If there is, then it is CPU limited. This benchmark test is an example of what I mean:

Oblivion CPU test (http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=2747)

This tests Oblivion at different CPU speeds with crossfire setups and single card setups. Page 4 is specifically what I'm referring to.

[dominick32]

Do you think you could do FEAR benchmarks using different CPU clock frequencies? That would actually show if it is bottlenecked by the CPU and at what clockspeeds. I don't know how you can conclude that it is not bottlenecked using the tests you ran. It was obviously scaling at a high rate with CPU speed in 3Dmark, almost to the point where it seems limited by the CPU.

The one statement you made in the article struck me as a contradiction:

"Intel Core 2 Duo's definitely will not bottleneck an 8800GTX setup, but as proven: higher clockspeed on your rig ultimately equals more potential and headroom to be released from the 8800 line of GPU's."

Releasing headroom and potential with higher clockspeeds essentially means it is CPU limited or am I missing some angle here? Its true that 3Dmark will generally scale with CPU speed no matter what, so what we need is real gaming benchmarks at different CPU speeds to see if any gain is seen at higher clockspeeds. If there is, then it is CPU limited. This benchmark test is an example of what I mean:

Oblivion CPU test (http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=2747)

This tests Oblivion at different CPU speeds with crossfire setups and single card setups. Page 4 is specifically what I'm referring to.

It is only CPU limited with non C2D Intels, Opterons/Athlons. If you take a look at all of my benchmarks you will see that in the main category and actual GRAPHICS PORTION OF THE TEST of SM3.0 and SM2.0 scores they only increase a meager 100 points from 2.4GHz all the way to 4.2GHz. Total compiled scores increase obviously because of the way 3dmark05 and 06 calculate CPU score into the equation.

I will say it again. A C2D will not bottleneck a single 8800GTX.

"Intel Core 2 Duo's definitely will not bottleneck an 8800GTX setup, but as proven: higher clockspeed on your rig ultimately equals more potential and headroom to be released from the 8800 line of GPU's."

For a clarification on that. ^^^^^ In a general sense, raising cpu clockspeed and raw power of your rig = ultimately increasing all around performance of the software/game. Not specifically GPU. I shouldve clarified that, youre right. It may also seem like a contradiction, but I am basically making it obvious that a C2D will not have these so called bottlenecking problems.

[FeuerFrei]

Yeah, the thing gives good benchies.

Now, how about power requirements?

[squads]

I see now how only the CPU score is really increasing in 3Dmark06. That is definitely a good sign as far as CPU power goes.

I would also like to make a point about what CPU's will bottleneck. The C2D at 2.4 is not bottlenecking the card according to those numbers, which is the equivalent of an X2 cpu at 2.9 (given a 20% clock for clock advantage). I would wager then that a dual core AMD chip running in the range of 2.9 will also not be bottlenecking an 8800 then. Just want people to realize that you don't have to have a C2D to run these cards well.

[sobe]

Meh, I've read on and on about quad core cpus and these newer video cards. The truth is, that dual core cpus are here to stay... They won't be going anywhere. Quad core, I can see that more in servers than anything needed by a game. Honestly, look at the multi-threaded available games to-date. The 8800series was tested by the OC pros to my knowledge on AMD Athlon64 3600+ and up, and the Intel Celeron D and up, so basically lower end procs. As long as you sustain above 30FPS in a game.... what more does having a $600 video card get you that the game can only dish out? Say, a 7800GTX and a 8800GTX/GTS, or a 7900GTX and a 8800GTX/GTS, the game can only give you the highest of so much, and once you hit that limit of what eye candy the game can give, you can't go any farther, so no need for an expensive card to get the visual effects you think you desire.

I dunno, that is just my view on it. And if you still don't understand, the basics of what I mean are that there is nothing available to max out current cpus/gpus as it is....

To the pc enthusiast, you could call me a dumb@$$, but each person has his/her own views.