Thoughts on my enclosure?? (56k - go make hot coco) [Archive]

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Sleepy_Steve

11-25-06, 10:13 PM

I just got to where i have something people can say if its a decent job or not with my project's (see sig) water cooling setup.

Below is basicaly a excerpt from my post in my build log... But given the time i dropped into this over my turkey break, i would like some more traffic of people telling me if i made a dumb mistake or not.

Feel free to drop in any questions about the loop.
Its a dual heatercore loop, cooling a CPU... and a GPU eventualy.
Using some valves to assist filling but mostly draining, as well as a swiftech microres.
All tubing is 1/2'' ID, although there is some copper and CPVC mixed in as well.
Oh and it runs 3x 120mm 120x38mm Sunon fans off an old AT PSU.

Other than finishing the plumbing - which i hope to do latter tonight... The external enclosure for the WC box is done and ready to go.
9 images below... Enjoy

First up, the upper section, with somewhat gutted AT PSU, and newer, reversed fan to keep the various fans from working against eachother. It still needs a top that the PC's case can sit on. But it works fine sucking in air from the holes on the back and sides. The holes on the sides show up better in some other pictures.
Oh, those fans are 120x38mm Sunon's -- and are quiet enough if you give them free flowing areas arround them.
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/sleepysteve72/DSCF2258.jpg

Next on the block are the various segments of the lower portion of the box.
Here is one of the sides with a heater core, modded, and caulked / taped (double sided) into place.
(the heatercores are slightly recessed in from the outer edge of the box)
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/sleepysteve72/DSCF2256.jpg

Then we have a picture of the base, with the ends atached, and all the plumbing thats going on in there. The side panels are cut off in the foreground.
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/sleepysteve72/DSCF2260.jpg

Now two quick pictures of the sides to get a general idea of how it came out. As well as where all the various intake holes are.
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/sleepysteve72/DSCF2261.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/sleepysteve72/DSCF2262.jpg
The thing i like most about it is that the upper section with the fans lifts out of the lower section for eassy access. And the ease of maintence alone makes the small bit of extra plumbing worth while. The extra plumbing being there to assist in filling and draining when needed.

A pic of the rear with the inlet and outlet ports taped off so i can see what kind of airflow i was getting through the heater cores. It is satisfactory.
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/sleepysteve72/DSCF2265.jpg

Picture from the top, just because i like looking at the fans and gutted PSU. Also i like this pic for some reason.
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/sleepysteve72/DSCF2264.jpg

Picture of the rear from the inside. Seeing the inlet and outlet holes covered in duct tape again, along with pump, heater cores, and other goodies.
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/sleepysteve72/DSCF2267.jpg

Picture of the front from the inside, and prolly the only "oh $h1t" moment of the project so far... when i realised after the thing was screwed together that there was not enough clearance in front of the left core to let me get tubing arround the outlets. The solution was to simply remove the front and scallop material out of the front pannel with a radial arm saw... a lot easier than i was afraid of, and looks semi decent as well.
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/sleepysteve72/DSCF2266.jpg

Moto7451

11-25-06, 10:51 PM

It looks good but is your pump able to prime itself at that angle with that tubing setup?

natewildes

11-25-06, 11:34 PM

That's pretty fine and dandy, but with what Moto said, I think you'd be much better off running a dual-pump setup, or replace it with a D5/DDC, there's enough restriction with the 90 degree turns and large radiators that you'd probably see a big improvement with more flow.

ziggo0

11-26-06, 02:36 AM

I hope you don't go to alot of LANs!

fhanderson

11-26-06, 04:45 AM

Just a couple of things I learned from experience. The Danner Mag pumps have a lot of vibration that will transfer to all parts connected to it. I had to create isolation mounts for the pump and reservoir to stop the noise. I don't know which pump you're using but you'll net at least a mag 7 to get the best temps. I put together a remote box with 2XBonneville HCs with a Mag 3. later I switched to a Mag 7 which gave a 3-4C improvement.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v358/fhanderson/WCP4DualHC2.jpg

Sleepy_Steve

11-26-06, 11:52 AM

Its a mag 3. But I'll think about the vibration issue when it comes time to fill the loop.
The cores will run in parallel to help with resistance.

To make priming the pump easier, i think it may make sense to raise the res the rest of the way. As i think i might have 3/4'' more in it... and that may be of use to me.

Sleepy_Steve

11-26-06, 10:18 PM

Moved the res hup higher by 3 inches... and it makes things run better when filling.
The valves at the base make for supper eassy draining. 4 seconds to completly empty.

Pump vibration seems minimal. There are only 2 90 degree elbows, and 2 copper T's. Those coper T's are also worth whatever restriction they cause as it lets me run the rads in parallel thereby reducing my overall resistance.

And yes, this rig wont be going to any lans... it weighs in at a modest 44 lbs, without the top piece that i havnt made yet.

Sleepy_Steve

11-28-06, 11:46 AM

I had a few leaks... tightening the hose clamps solved all 4 of them.
Im glad it was only the external enclosure and not the inside of a PC though.

However. I still get some bubbles while filling the loop. Those bubbles came out fine after a few minutes of running the loop after it filled when i was running straight watter. But when i went to add a bit of antifreze to prevent corrosion and ensure safe storage in my garage durring the middle of winter for a few weeks while i went back to school for finals... The fluid then foamed and now the bubbles are so small they are there for days on end and not removing themselves.

I will completly drain and then re-assemble the system again when i get home in a few weeks. But how do i keep this from happening again??

The only thing i can think of is to move the res so that it is above the pump, and at least as high as the heatercores.
Meantime I'll look arround for something about propper filling and bleeding of a loop.

striker85

11-28-06, 12:56 PM

got any finished pics?

Sleepy_Steve

11-28-06, 01:25 PM

I um... was not able to get any. My dad might take some for me.
But thats doubtfull.

For now its looping on itself so i can figure out how best to set it up. At the moment Im editing some of the above pics in paint to show how things are laid out now, so you have something to judge to offer further sugestions.

Here we are.. I couldnt think of a good way to make it look like the res is sitting on a chunk of 2x4 and raised as high as the bracket will allow, within MS paint anyway. So i just left it as is.

Current setup sketch. @ front of enclosure.
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/sleepysteve72/WCfrontsketch.jpg

Current sketch @ back of enclosure w/ where i was thinking about putting the res in green. Good idea? Bad idea?
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/sleepysteve72/WCbacksketch.jpg

Ashikaa

11-28-06, 03:49 PM

Sleepy_Steve

11-28-06, 04:00 PM

Ahh, but is that a good spot for the res... priming / flowrate wise??

EDIT:
This is really nice for me to see. I wish I have stuff to make my own WC setup instead of buying everything. :bang head
LOL, the reason I built an external enclosure instead of a fully bought setup, was 2 fold.
1) I dont know what I'm doing so prefab and DIY are just as confusing.
2) I felt more comfortable making its own box and working in wood than I did modding my case further and working with metal.
(I have wood tools and skills, but come up short in metal working)

The list of tools used was: Drill (I use a drill press as well, but all you really need is a drill), Scroll saw, Radial arm saw (best thing ever), and a Propaine torch to solder the coper.
Thats really only FOUR tools needed for the whole project.

darkcow

11-28-06, 04:06 PM

yes, its always best to have the reservoir above the pump. you could leave it where it is right now. but when your filing up the loop just lift the res upwards a bit so the water runs downwards. you don't need much of an incline for it to work. you could just leave it where it is right now and just stick a few pieces of wood below it to raise it up a bit. i like it how it looks where it is right now. but then again. you do want to keep the tubing as short as possible and putting it above will shorten the tubing.

Sleepy_Steve

11-28-06, 04:15 PM

Its sitting on a 2x4 with the bracket raised to the max. Filling went easier, but the pump sucks air after like 1 second of being on.

Im tempted to try both, it may be easier to get to the fill port if its over above the pump and not burried by the rads. But i would like to keep the loop looking as clean as i can.

downer

12-01-06, 05:26 PM

what are the approximate dimensions of your enclosure.? I've been toying with the idea of building a wood enclosure for awhile now, and I'd like to get an idea of size. I have two large single pass heater cores that I'd like to use. Very nicely done btw.

Also I noticed you have a 90 degree fitting on your pump's intake. You may want to do away with that, if at all possible. 90 degree fittings can substantially reduce flow, especially on the pump intake.

Sleepy_Steve

12-01-06, 07:56 PM

Its designed to be close to the dimensions of my chenming full tower, but a tad wider because its the base.

21'' deep
11'' wide
22'' tall (overall) -- approx

Height breakdown.
Lid: 1.5''
Upper: 6.5''
Lower: 14''

downer

12-01-06, 08:34 PM

thanks alot

QuietIce

12-01-06, 11:40 PM

Nice job on the box - I'm a definite fan of DIY!

On the res situation here's an idea (though it involves moving the intake hole in your box). Position the res as high as possible on the wall the pump inlet points toward and with the barbs pointing toward the rear. Starting at the pump inlet and working "upstream"; threaded-1/2" (or threaded-3/4" if you can find one), then 1/2-3/4" reducer, then 3/4" 90° turned upward, then 3/4" straight, then 3/4" 90° turned "right" as you're facing the pump inlet, then 3/4-1/2" reducer, then 1/2" straight - and hopefully you're lined up with the res outlet. Whew - did that make sense? :) Now drill a new box inlet hole in-line with the res inlet so you won't have to bend the tubing inside the box, which looks like what your original plan was.

The reason for the 3/4" is two-fold:
1. It dramatically reduces the resistance to flow at the 90° bends, and
2. It essentially makes your res bigger (by ~33%) from the extra 12" or more of 3/4" pipe you've added above the pump.

3/4" tubing could be used instead of pipe if you want visibility. And since your heater cores are fixed, as is your pump, you might consider adding a 3/4" 90° at the far end of your outlet pipe to line up with your T for the heater cores (mine are plumbed parallel, too).

Just a thought ...

Radial arm saw (best thing ever) :thup:

Sleepy_Steve

12-02-06, 12:06 AM

OK, i understand the reasoning... I must however admit that i was lost as to your explanation.
I know its asking a lot but could you save one of the immages i posted and give it a dose of healthy MS Paint. :D

Oh yeah, i think that radial arm saw bit is sig material.

QuietIce

12-02-06, 12:42 AM

In the first pic I didn't try to draw in the res - it would mostly be behind the heater core anyway (barbs facing the new hole in the box). Black lines are 3/4", blue is 1/2" tubing from the computer (it showed up better than red).

In the second pic the res is mounted on the wall that isn't there.

Sleepy_Steve

12-02-06, 01:30 AM

Aye, i was planing on adding an extra inlet or outlet hole. So that dosent bother me at all.
Hmm, I wonder if a friend of mine has some 3/4 lying arround... But I'm rather low on my stock of copper. I think i only bought 2ft to begin with. :(

Know if standard fittings are threaded to match the res??

OK, so... you were talking only re-working the res to pump bit of pipe... with a set up that would save me an elbow and maybe an extra hole if i remember how things lined up... yours uses 3/4'' copper, thats cool too.

Thanks for the imput, i follow what you were trying to tell me at first -- I think i get it now, and it strikes me as a more refined idea than my origional relocation plan. :D
Its gona be tried out as well.

HungLo

12-04-06, 02:33 PM

Hey nice e-box Steve! I was wondering how big it got :) (from other post)
Like already said... 90 deg. at the pump inlet is bad mojo.
Air bubbles can come from a negative leak (is that a real phrase?) :) as in it won't drip water... but it'll suck air into the loop.
Like I said I love the box... but I think the water makes redundant trips the length of your box... i.e. the heatercore barbs are at the opposite end of the water entering the enclosure. I know it's a 10' head pump.... but if you eat most of that head with excess tubing.....

I was thinking of external too... 1xBonneville, 1xD5, 1xDDC. Currently I'm going to just cram it all.

Sleepy_Steve

12-04-06, 03:07 PM

First off, the pump is not sucking air from the inlet.
Secondly, as is... there is not more than 4ft of tubing and only a 1ft rise within the box itself.
Any "solution" that I've seen seems to need more 90 elbows that the current setup. Quiet Ice needs two 90's to my one 90, although you may be able to solder up some 3/4 inch 45 elbows, run thicker tubing between them...
One of my main problems is the limited run you can do from the pump inlet to the wall oppisate the inlet... Its only 2 maybe 3 inches at best.
I speak of its problems, but please realise i like quiet ice's idea enough to be trying it when i get home.

Personaly, I cant see the reason to mix dis-similar pumps in the same loop.

HungLo

12-04-06, 03:33 PM

Sorry Steve... I didn't mean the pump was sucking air from the 90..... just that air "can" enter from a hose-clamp barb area... that's all.
90's aren't Bad per se. just "Bad" @ the pump inlet.. could cause cavitation?
Well... as to the 2 pumps deal..... according to Sytemcooling's article on the modded DDC... in a restrictive loop..performance of a modded DDC is virtually the same as the D5. Besides the D5 has a dial to play with... everyone poopoos the idea... but ..I have the pumps... and I want to do it.... :)
http://server3.uploadit.org/files/vpsporb-SysFlow3added.JPG
what about moving the pump?
http://server2.uploadit.org/files/vpsporb-pump.place.JPG

Sleepy_Steve

12-04-06, 03:46 PM

Ahh, i thought you meant it was sucking in air through the threaded part of the inlet. Oops lol.
Second oops is that i think its impossible to move the pump... It went on real easy... But when i try and get the thing off, well i begin to see the plastic start to break. :shrug:

Please explain the effects of cavitation @ the inlet. My inner engenier is intrigued. :D

HungLo

12-04-06, 05:37 PM

Sleepy_Steve

12-04-06, 06:01 PM

As far as I understand Mag driven pumps is that they create a low pressure area at the inlet to feed the pump. Since they don't "make" thier own suction like a directly driven pump shaft would. Thus any restriction at the inlet is hurting the pump's ability to be fed. It can create cavitation... which is air being thrashed by the inpellor. In large apps like ships, cavitation can destroy propellors very quickly.

I hope that makes sense.... :)

(edit) I don't understand why it's hard to change the orientation or why it's cracking the Mag3.... is it just bolted to the MDF?

Just a hoot... but check my 1st modded submersible Powerhead pump! heheheh ahhh memories!

Ahh nice pic.

Yeah, i was familiar with the issues of cavitation in large applications... Cargo ships, submarines, etc. But i didnt know how it affects things on a smaller scale.

Its not cracking the mag 3, but i can already see the white line on the base indicating where it will crack after a few more uses. The pump itself will not break if i remove it from the base, but the tab that holds it to the base might.

Unfortunatly, I only screwed in the base instead of bolting it. The reasoning is somewhat embarasing... I didnt want things sticking through the base and scratching up the work area i was using. :bang head

QuietIce

12-04-06, 09:15 PM

I know it's a 10' head pump.... but if you eat most of that head with excess tubing..... It would take a LOT of tubing to do that. :)
Just a hoot... but check my 1st modded submersible Powerhead pump! heheheh ahhh memories! Is that an old Xaser II? I've got a heater core mounted to the top of one for an old socket A rig ...

Sleepy_Steve

12-14-06, 08:37 PM

Just for kicks... a pic of the encolsure with tubing installed. It was filled with some water and a tad of anti freeze for a while while i was out of town.
I think i recal someone requesting a pic of the tubing between the rads.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/sleepysteve72/DSCF2293.jpg

QuietIce

12-15-06, 12:20 AM

I didn't request the pics but it IS good to see someone else using copper Ts instead of restricting their loop with the plastic ones ...

Sleepy_Steve

12-15-06, 01:40 AM

The certainly are a lot better flow wise than any of the barbed plastic fittings ive seen.
I think you'd like the lower T which has a 5in run down to another copper 90 because copper elbows seem to be the best way to make a sharp turn.

I must admit though, that it is a pain to get all the hose clamps in that tight a space when putting the tubing on. But when i re-do all the tubing, I wont take any clamp related chances.
Im also not too proud of the tubing bending like it has between the T's and Rads... But its the best i could do and its not leaking, so i guess its a non issue.

Sleepy_Steve

12-25-06, 12:17 AM

Hmm, been working more on the tower latley and not the enclosure... Because i need a 90deg bend at the inlet of the pump... Would it be better to use a piece of CPVC made for elecrical conduit.

Here's the link. It will work if i can find a female - female adapter... The threadings match the pump though.
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=116025-223-LN20DA-CTN&lpage=none

I ask because I was wondering if a slow tight bend (conduit pice) would be less detrimental to preformance. Given that its not a hard 90 and the ID in almost never reduced like as in a normal barb.

QuietIce

12-25-06, 01:13 AM

The bigger the radius of the bend the better.

Merry Christmas!!!

Sleepy_Steve

12-25-06, 04:59 PM

Thanks man, I'll see if i can get on onto my pump.

Merry Christmas!!!

Moto7451

12-25-06, 05:55 PM

See if you can find 45° bends. They usually sell them next to the 90s. Two 45°s have been shown to hurt flow less than one 90°.

Sleepy_Steve

12-09-07, 07:55 AM

voigts

12-09-07, 01:43 PM

Random Bump...

Wondering about making the WC loop happen again now that I have left the dorms and have room for it at school. I'm also considering abandoning the enclosure, because of size issues. I'm thinking that I have enough room in my full tower for whatever I need to do. I'd plan on re-using my old water blocks, at least one of the heater cores, and the micro-res.

I'm wondering if I should abandon the enclosure or not, and if I do... do I want to pick up a different (more compact 12v) pump as well?

Sounds to me like you have already kind of decided to ditch the enclosure and go with the smaller pump. I personally don't care for external setups a whole lot as it is just easier to have everything in one case when it comes to moving it outside to blow out the dust. That is the main reason I built my wood case to allow me to internally mount my PA120.3 and yet fit the case within my desk (a full tower is just too tall). Its awfully hard to beat a DDC with Petras top for the size/silence/performance it offers.

QuietIce

12-09-07, 01:47 PM

Hey, hey! Good to see you back looking at WC again! I liked your first set-up a LOT - a very good DIY system with great cooling.

I think the pump you have is fine. More compact? I guess that depends on your specific case and layout. The MCP655 isn't that much smaller and the MCP355 is only a little smaller than the MCP655 once you add a modded top and barbs. Unless you're really strapped for room, which I can't imagine in a full tower, I wouldn't bother.

If you DO want to spend money on something get a ThermoChill rad. Personally, I like HCs and still use them for almost everything but ThermoChills have much better performance if you're space limited (I'm not ;)). I doubt a TC 120.2 is as good as 2x HCs but I bet it's ~1.5 of them if you have good fans - and I know you do ... :)

Sleepy_Steve

12-10-07, 11:38 AM

Well, the second HC in the top would look tacky... So I think a store bought rad would make sense up there if i need one.
But a HC would do fine down in the front where my 120mm intake fans don't line up perfectly anyway.

As far as space in the full tower. I think it can fit... but space may get tight with 2 PSU's, a bunch of HDDs, 2 opticals, the HC and a double or tripple rad. :D

QuietIce

12-10-07, 09:01 PM

I didn't mean to add a second off-the-shelf - I meant replace the HC.

But if you don't want to do that I certainly understand - of four WC rigs only one has a store rad, and that's because it's a single ... ;)

Sleepy_Steve

12-11-07, 06:22 AM

Well, I'm only thinking of replacing ONE of the HC with a store rad.

There's also a strong risk that my car is going to eat up all my spare time and money anyway getting it ready for the track.

QuietIce

12-11-07, 08:15 AM

Another racer on here?!? :eek: :D

This is what I've been waiting to run but the front-end needs re-building before it gets out of my garage again. Luckily I've done suspension rebuilds before so it's just a matter of time and money, I need to replace both lower arms. The guy before me swapped out to Satellite arms for less weight but I want to put the sway bar back on and need the RR arms to do that: My Baby (http://home.kc.rr.com/rm23u2nd76g12/MyBaby.jpg)

What do you drive ...?

Sleepy_Steve

12-11-07, 09:49 AM

97 240sx... I like her a lot. This is a post wash, pre-raccoon, bird, and fender bender messing up the passenger side fender and bumper picture. I have the new body parts in my living room awaiting paint before I put them on... Part of the reason I'm only doing bushings, brakes, and tires for now.
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/sleepysteve72/DSCF2444.jpg

Its mostly stock, although I swapped it from auto to 5-spd, gave it a VLSD, and improved the stereo a bit (speakers / head unit) because I put about 15-25k on her annually.

She could handle very well if i put those polly bushings in her, and fix her alignment. First thing though is brakes (race pads for HPDE) and fresh tires for the season. Then get those bushings in. Then maybe get some coil overs and other suspension parts to get the alignment how I want it all in one go.

For now though, the old worn out stock bushings make it kinda sloppy, make my rear camber far to high (-2 is as close to 0 as it will go) considering I'm at 0 and non adjustable stock up front. So that means a ton of under steer till the weight transfer is just right, then the LSD might or might not kick in, and I might or might not suddenly have to start counter steer / do magic stuff.

To make this semi on topic... behind the grill in the garage is where my main work bench is for modding my Cases / building my WC setup :D