PCP&C Interview with CEO Doug Dodson

[Joeteck]

Please make this a sticky!!

You must listen to this interview (http://www.pcpower.com/about/whatsnew/ComputerAmericaLiveRadioInterview_CEO_DougDodson_0 92605.mp3) about power supplies!!

It will answer all of your questions.....

[Super Nade]

The interviewer used Deer for his builds...lol. The PCP&C CEO makes good points about using weight and using proper wire guages, scam reviews (Copper is expensive!). Hmm, anybody want to take them up on their offer? Looks like he is reading off the Chroma -ATE's manual. :)

I'm not buying into the whole "everybody's copying us" BS. That is just not true. I tell you what, industrial OEM's perform every rigrous test imaginable, its just that PCP&C have a stronger MARKETING and PR department.

There is nothing he said that folks here don't know already.

Sounds like one big advt. :rolleyes:

Bigger supply saves you money with electricity? Really??? I'm not so sure. :confused:

[jivetrky]

While I agree that he's basically saying stuff that "we" already know. There are many ppl that don't know that stuff. I think this interview would be a good sticky for OCF newbies to listen.

I was glad to hear that there wasn't any real disinformation given, it was all good, truthful info about PSU's.

And that quote he said about "Bigger supplies saving money on electricity", what he said before that was that, because that PSU is only running at maybe 50%, it's running cooler, and thus more efficient. So, because it's running more efficiently and not loosing power to heat, it's saving money in that sense.

[Super Nade]

I have to disagree here. There are other parameters as in the efficiency curve which determine how much power a unit consumes. Drawing 200W from a 1kW unit is not the best way to maintain efficiency. They NEVER tell you at what load points do they rate efficiency or if it is an across the board rating.

If they test units at 50 C, one would assume it would be under full load and this is where the efficiency figure of merit would be calculated. If not, then that parameter is pretty much useless.

[jivetrky]

Well yeah, that's true. I think that brings back a good point of them offering to test any PSU's at their site for an accurate comparison.

[Joeteck]

I have to disagree here. There are other parameters as in the efficiency curve which determine how much power a unit consumes. Drawing 200W from a 1kW unit is not the best way to maintain efficiency. They NEVER tell you at what load points do they rate efficiency or if it is an across the board rating.

If they test units at 50 C, one would assume it would be under full load and this is where the efficiency figure of merit would be calculated. If not, then that parameter is pretty much useless.


Well according to their power supply design guide. Efficiency is rated @ 100%, 50% and 20% for their EPS12V line of power supplies. 550W to 800W.

100% is 70%, 50% is 72%, 20% is 65%.

Recommended minimum @ 100% is 77%, 50% is 80%, 20% is 75%

From this info, PCP&C power supplies run best @ 50% load.

More info on how they test it here (http://www.efficientpowersupplies.org/)

[Super Nade]

So, are they encouraging us to double our power budgets? This isn't the way to go about things IMO. I'm surprised why nobody mentioned 80+ in the entire interview. OEM's like seasonic and Enhance have really done a good job in building efficient units.

The industry is not all doom and gloom as portrayed in the interview. The industry has become a lot more competitive than it was a few years ago.

You do have garbage units like Deer, but then there is no point in comparing bottom of the barrel units with good ones. If any, I would have liked to hear more about how PCP&C's units differ from comparable wares.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning their quality or engineering (both of which are top notch), my complaint is that they are claiming exclusivity/monopoly over all that is good about PSU's.

[Joeteck]

So, are they encouraging us to double our power budgets? This isn't the way to go about things IMO. I'm surprised why nobody mentioned 80+ in the entire interview. OEM's like seasonic and Enhance have really done a good job in building efficient units.

The industry is not all doom and gloom as portrayed in the interview. The industry has become a lot more competitive than it was a few years ago.

You do have garbage units like Deer, but then there is no point in comparing bottom of the barrel units with good ones. If any, I would have liked to hear more about how PCP&C's units differ from comparable wares.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning their quality or engineering (both of which are top notch), my complaint is that they are claiming exclusivity/monopoly over all that is good about PSU's.


Thats an interesting debate you're starting.
PCP&C are IMO is king of the hill. I can't imagine seasonic making a power supply that can sustain 50% of its power @ 50c 24/7. There are alot of other factors here, in terms of quality. PCP&C have proved it time & time again that they can do it. Does the other PS manufactures have a PDF document detailing all of the rating like PCP&C? If so, Id like to compare them.

EDIT: also, the ratings on the 12v rail(s) are peak values. You never want to hit that anyway, regardless who make the PS.

[Super Nade]

There are several other big names like Zippy, Delta (and possibly Lite-on) and Etasis who do make units of comparable quality (if not better) for a lot less. They are not marketed well enough IMO as their primary markets are with Medical instrumentation, military and industrial customers.

Quality comes from reliable adherence to basic international/national standards. One single company cannot claim monopoly over what defines quality, when clearly, there are several other contenders. Again, awareness plays a big role in perception. You may not be aware of half the companies I'm aware of and vice versa.

I've said this before already, but then this may be important in our context here; ATI are looking to even the load distribution across the 5V and 12V lines (take the x1950 for example), so we may see yet another paradigm shift forwarded by ATI/AMD.

[RangerXLT8]

He is a business man trying to make money. Though I think what he said makes a lot of sense. And the host is right, you get what you pay for in this industry.

It's a gift to all of us to have JGuru around who really invested some time and money into getting the best possible equipment he could to give us thorough reviews.

Now I have written reviews and in past, I have seen a PSU load test consist of playing a DVD video! And then the reviewer say this PSU is very stable blah blah blah.

Now in a review I wrote on an Antec Neo HE 550, I just ran it through hours of 3DMark, with CPU and GPU overclocked through the teeth, measuring voltage with a DMM.

And just for a comparison, the Neo HE 550 is rated @50C, SLi certified, and Seasonic built, yet it weighs half as much as PC Power & Cooling Turbocool 510. An no PSU that I know of regulates lines to 1% other than PC Power & Cooling, pleas correct me if I'm wrong.. I know the one OCZ PSU I owned was junk.

[Joeteck]

There are several other big names like Zippy, Delta (and possibly Lite-on) and Etasis who do make units of comparable quality (if not better) for a lot less. They are not marketed well enough IMO as their primary markets are with Medical instrumentation, military and industrial customers.

Quality comes from reliable adherence to basic international/national standards. One single company cannot claim monopoly over what defines quality, when clearly, there are several other contenders. Again, awareness plays a big role in perception. You may not be aware of half the companies I'm aware of and vice versa.

I've said this before already, but then this may be important in our context here; ATI are looking to even the load distribution across the 5V and 12V lines (take the x1950 for example), so we may see yet another paradigm shift forwarded by ATI/AMD.


One thing for sure is that PCP&C are getting away from Multiple rails. It is much easier to max out a single 18A rail, than a single 60A. So that said, how many PS company's you know of have did away with the Intel spec of muliple rails??

EDIT: Quoted from their website:
Furthermore, power supplies are more efficient and reliable when loaded to 30% - 70% of maximum capacity.

[Super Nade]

Every one of the companies I mentioned have large single rail units. But, that is not the point. As long as the rails are independently regulated and the CPU+GPU are not on the same rail, multiple rail units are perfectly fine.

They are, however much more expensive to make and most average manufacturers with multiple rail units do not have independednt regulation. This coupled with user error in rail utilization shows up as a PSU failure. PCP&C are making convenient use of these facts and championing their units as the pioneers in single rail usage. It is far from the truth.

[Joeteck]

Every one of the companies I mentioned have large single rail units. But, that is not the point.

That is the point. There is no reason to have a multi rail PS. Whats the point if the regulated power is coming from one source anyway. Does not make any sense to spead it out over a bunch of 18A rails. Thats just silly. Might as well shoot yourself in the foot and get it over with. The PCP&P 750 QUAD, is a single 60A 12v rail.

Anyway You're entiled to your opinion.

When looking for a new power supply be sure to look for Active PFC.

There are only a small hand full power supplies that meet that criteria (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?Submit=ENE&N=2010320058+1131509966+1230113790&Subcategory=58&description=&Ntk=&srchInDesc=) with a single rail.

Be sure to look at the efficiency rating(s)..

[Super Nade]

The original reason behing a multi-rail spec was to ensure user safety in case of a leakage, which could result in a ground bounce (i.e case and real ground are at different potentials) which could be fatal.

Again you are missing MY point completely. The 18 A limit may not be the best way to do things, but PCP&C were by no means pioneers in disregarding Intel's specs. Most server units are single rail.

Please do your research before you say things like "only a handful of units have Active PFC". This is simply not the case. Almost every manufacturer worth his salt has active PFC units. Newegg is not the only place to find PSU's. ;)

[funnyperson1]

Thats an interesting debate you're starting.
PCP&C are IMO is king of the hill. I can't imagine seasonic making a power supply that can sustain 50% of its power @ 50c 24/7. There are alot of other factors here, in terms of quality. PCP&C have proved it time & time again that they can do it. Does the other PS manufactures have a PDF document detailing all of the rating like PCP&C? If so, Id like to compare them.

EDIT: also, the ratings on the 12v rail(s) are peak values. You never want to hit that anyway, regardless who make the PS.
That's funny, because I am pretty sure that PCP&C has some PSUs that are made by Seasonic. SN pointed out a bunch of great PSU makers that aren't marketed as well as PCP&C but are still very good.

I like the idea, but I would trust it a lot more coming from a consortium and not a single PSU company.

I think the 80 Plus standard is a great idea, and if all or even most PSUs conformed to that, the power savings worldwide would be incalculable.

[Joeteck]

Please do your research before you say things like "only a handful of units have Active PFC". This is simply not the case. Almost every manufacturer worth his salt has active PFC units. Newegg is not the only place to find PSU's. ;)

I did plenty of research. Newegg only sells stuff that "sells". Why bother stocking it if it just sits on the shelf. Again, there are only a handful of single rail power supplies with Active PFC, which makes more sense to have than multiple rails with PFC.

You can continue buying multiple rail power supplies, as its not my money. I've been reading many forums and there have been many more power supply problems since this stupid dual rail spec came out. Its all hype and no point in the whole spec. Intels Extreme Edition CPU draws about 23Amps without overclocking.

Here is another point I'm going to make: Many power supplies in the market today are making false claims on actual usable wattage. A 680w PS is not a true 680, as all of its power is on the 3.3 & 5v rails. 3.3 is not even used, and 5v may be about 10 Amps or 50Watts. Everything else lies on the 12v rail. So if you see 3.3v@36A, 5v@40A, and 12v@26A, you can rest assure you're not getting 680 Watts of power. Or if it was split up 12v1@14, 12v2@18. Unfortunately you can't combine the two rails to make 32Amps as each rail is a different output.

When dealing with a multiple rail power supply you risk the chance of over loading one rail at any moment. Each rail is designated for a certain piece of hardware in your system. Lets say 12v1@19Amps is for the CPU only. Thats the 4 or 8 pin connector on it. Your CPU only needs 9 AMPs. You have 10 Amps that will never be used and is lost. Your next rail 12v2@18A, is for your Hard drives, Minus Video cards and anything else 12v maybe 10Amps for all that stuff. Another 8 Amps lost. lastly we have the 12v3@19A for the video card. It can't be anything powerful, as the 8800 series cards need a 26A rail minimum. Again, you can't add all of the rails, as each one is separate. So you need to upgrade, again. So you have about 18 Amps of unusable power....what a waste.................

Understand now??

[Super Nade]

Ranger:
Testing a unit with a heavily loaded rig like you did, gets full marks in my book. Not everybody has access to top drawer equipment. With a DMM one can get a measure of average values, so if possible, you might want to acquire a cheap Analog scope to check for Ripple (as specified in the ATX guide). Such real world tests would be a perfect complement to ATE tests like Jon's.

funnyperson1:
You took the words right out my mouth. :) To be fair, the interviewer mentioned the need for a consortium of OEM's to define standards as opposed to a single manufacturer. This is something I would like to see. The UL/IEEE specs need to be updated. 80+ is a great step in this direction.

Joeteck:
There are several inaccuracies in your analysis, but since you wish to be argumentative and I foresee this taking a personal tone, hence I withdraw myself from your thread.

[Joeteck]

Joeteck:
There are several inaccuracies in your analysis, but since you wish to be argumentative and I foresee this taking a personal tone, hence I withdraw myself from your thread.

Inaccuracies? According to who? As many people have said: Do more research and get back to me...

EDIT: Argumentative? No... You see it black, and I see it white. Two people with thier own opinions...

[Oklahoma Wolf]

Listened to the interview... nothing new to me there. Lots of marketing going on with some useful info here and there.

So that said, how many PS company's you know of have did away with the Intel spec of muliple rails??

Seasonic has already, and Zippy never really followed it to begin with. Sure Zippy came out with those two SSI models, but kept all their popular single 12v units.

[Adragontattoo]

Man I wish I had access to the test equipment needed to accurately test PSU's..

I would be testing used PSU's BUT I could have a FSP FX600/FX500 PC&C 510 and a Zippy all tested.

4 PSU's that are all from well respected companies AFAIK, I would be interested to see what a normally used PSU would test at vs. a brand new unit.

[Max0r]

Ranger: About the 1% line voltage regulation... that's an interesting thing I noticed about the PCP&P I got is that the voltage readings for the 12v don't ever seem to change, while with every other PSU I have used, including the Blue Storm, it changes constantly. In my friend's system with the same PCP&P as I, it's always at "11.96v" and in mine it is always at "12.09v". Is this an accurate assessment or am I being mislead by the software's voltage readings?

http://www.aoaforums.com/forum/413328-post5.html
Super Nade you are everywhere! Here you mention PCP&P sourcing units from Zippy and Sparkle in the past.

I got a friend runnin 6x 45CFM Yen Sun 80mm fans and two 220 CFM Delta TFBs, 5 hard drives, an A64 venice oced @ 1.55volts, and a 7900 GTX, is using a Sparkle PSU of similar wattage spec as the 510 turbo cool. Everything runs very nicely. He used to have one of the PCP&P 510's but it died during a lightning storm (nothing else got damaged). I'm gona ask him whether his voltages go up and down n' stuff.

[Diggrr]

Since SeaSonic builds power supplies for PCP&C, I bought a SeaSonic....why go with the re-brander for more money?
That and it's still an >80 efficiency unit with active PFC (99%).

@ Max0r, If I leave charting on for several hours in speedfan, I can catch it's 12v line drifting by <.1v about every hour or so. I don't have a UPS or anything like that, just a plain old telco surge protector, so it's probably the house mains voltage shifting (which it does by 3-5V according to my DMM).
Software reporting is a double-translation. From actual voltage to IC, and from IC to software. There's plenty of room for averages to make readings appear to move about.
There's also plenty of differences between even identical motherboards to make voltages appear different from one board to another. Components can have 5-10% tolerances, so one board's (example) resister is 3 Ohms different from the same resister on another board...stuff like that.


PCP&C isn't the only good quality PSU out there, but they do seem to have Cadillacs at Bentley prices.

[Max0r]

Hey digs, regarding the motherboard differences, would these differences and possible inaccuracies include not showing a voltage change when there is one?

[Diggrr]

Yes it would, but not for too long a period of time. And then you wouldn't want a resource hog on your computer that would pick up every single signal.
There'd be latencies showing up in other programs then, and you'd uninstall it, wouldn't you? I would.
JonnyGuru's testing includes charts of his tested PSU's actual line signal, and it looks like a hairy noodle...some more so than others.
Software would spend alot of time trying to keep up with that, and your hardware doesn't actually support that level of scrutiny. That's why he uses a USB scope on the output of his sunmoon tester.

In a way, I'm glad the motherboards don't support that in-depth testing, just imagine the cost of motherboards then! And we wouldn't be having this conversation ;)

[Joeteck]

Since SeaSonic builds power supplies for PCP&C, I bought a SeaSonic....why go with the re-brander for more money?


Actually, Seasonic only makes the silencer series, and none of the seasonics resemble a PCP&C power supply anyway. PCP&C just design their power supplies and hand off the schematics to Seasonic. If Seasonic would to break their contract of "copying PCP&C technology, I would imagine there would be lawyers jumping all over it. Ever look inside of a Seasonic? Does it look exactally like a PCP&C?

[Diggrr]

<snip>

You're convinced you got more because you paid more...good for you. Maybe that justifies the price for you.

Me, I got all of what I wanted in an excellent psu for a better price. The American dream. I'm happy.

There's definately more than one competent PSU manufacturer, and I won't be convinced that I got less because I payed less.

That's all I've got to say 'bout that.

[jtjuska]

I won't say much in this thread as I don't see a point and most people will note that I own a PCP&C Unit. I am very very happy with this power supply but that isn't my point here.

My point is simply this. There are quite a few very high quality power supplies that can be had. PCP&C are very nice and have a heafty warranty. That said, any of the other quality brands out there (many of which have been named) shouldn't ever need their warranty other than if you get a dud because they are that well built. I see no reason why PCP&C is necessarily any better than anyone else. They will have the same issues other power supplies have in that every once in a while you will get a dud, or that eventually things will fail.

Although I may have made no sense to anyone else here I hope that something was understood, if not its not going to worry me at all.

~jtjuska

[Max0r]

Friend regarding his sparkle: "According to Mr. Multimeter, +12 is 12.10 at idle and drops to 12.08 under 100% CPU load. +5 is 5.04, constant. Note that I didn't load the GPU in my quick test."

So how much did you guys buy your power supplies for?

[Diggrr]

$139 +shipping.

I loved my Fortron Sparkle but it began it's slow death (12v rail) two weeks out of warranty. :(
Which is the only Fortron I've had die on me after 6-8 years of PC building.

[Max0r]

$139 +shipping.

I loved my Fortron Sparkle but it began it's slow death (12v rail) two weeks out of warranty. :(
Which is the only Fortron I've had die on me after 6-8 years of PC building.

How long is the warranty?

[jivetrky]

Friend regarding his sparkle: "According to Mr. Multimeter, +12 is 12.10 at idle and drops to 12.08 under 100% CPU load. +5 is 5.04, constant. Note that I didn't load the GPU in my quick test."

So how much did you guys buy your power supplies for?


My Friends "Mustang" PSU goes from 11.78 idle to about 11.45 load for 12v and 3.28 idle to 3.01 load. (2.8Ghz Smithfield, 9700Pro)

And yet I can't seem to convince him to buy a new one before it kills his system :)


/end offtopic

[Diggrr]

How long is the warranty?

The Seasonic is 3 years, the Fortron wasn't.
Even NewEgg warrants the Seasonic for one year replacement without charge...which I find odd. They usually don't care about you after the check clears, unless it's DOA.

[Max0r]

I read a review for one of the Sparkles on NewEgg & person said it died after 8 months & was able to RMA it. You figure if one dies within a few years it has to be defective ;) Duno if that matters now =p

I paid $145 shipped for the PCP&P I have but that was classifieds ;)

[Joeteck]

Any power supply will die if you overload it, its just a matter of when...

[mantralord]

Not if it has overload protection. You know, that thing overclockers and gamers pretend every power supply doesn't have so that they can justify their 1kw PSU purchases.

[Diggrr]

Fortron's actually have a pretty good overload sensor. If it trips (and I've done that) you have to shut off the button on the back for a minute (or unplug if it's sans-switch) to reset it or it will not come back on.

It's not like my psu was overloaded though. I have a DTR chip under-volted @ stock speed, and a 3 year old AGP card that couldn't game if you whipped it.
The only fan it drove is the fan inside the psu itself.
From the wall it drew <220 watts according to two DMM's and a clamp-on Amp meter.

[Max0r]

Maybe this is why that thermaltake I used to have started to get a tad flakey after me shorting stuff multiple times while running the system ;) It still works great but it used to be perfect now something isn't quite right =p

And you know what Diggrr you just enlightened me because I remember with that Tt PSU when I shorted the system off with it (i was benig a dumbass with wires) it simply wouldn't function until I let it stay off for a couple minutes. Then everything was peachy.

[Joeteck]

it simply wouldn't function until I let it stay off for a couple minutes. Then everything was peachy.

You can speed up this process by unplugging it for about 30 seconds with the switch in the "on" position.

[Max0r]

You can speed up this process by unplugging it for about 30 seconds with the switch in the "on" position.

Good to know next time I short my comp :D:D:D

[jdrake90]

isn't PC power and cooling the same as sparkle?

Or am I getting that mixed with Fortron/sparkle?

Jdrake90

[funnyperson1]

isn't PC power and cooling the same as sparkle?

Or am I getting that mixed with Fortron/sparkle?

Jdrake90
Fortron = Sparkle, PCP&C is their own company and get their PSUs from Seasonic and Wintact among others.