Heads are rolling at Sony

[FudgeNuggets]

Ken has been around too long to be fired, but taking away his power and giving him basically a title and place on the board constitutes that Sony is not pleased with the way things are proceding in their Playstation Division. My response to this is: DUH!!!! and WTF took so long? Too little too late though, IMO, and they should've went with somebody from the outside of SCEI, preferrably somebody from a profitable company like IBM, Apple or Microsoft. Hopefully they'll still be a player in the next gen.

http://www.digitalworldtokyo.com/2006/11/kutaragi_removed_from_job_in_s.php

[rainless]

Ken has been around too long to be fired, but taking away his power and giving him basically a title and place on the board constitutes that Sony is not pleased with the way things are proceding in their Playstation Division. My response to this is: DUH!!!! and WTF took so long? Too little too late though, IMO, and they should've went with somebody from the outside of SCEI, preferrably somebody from a profitable company like IBM, Apple or Microsoft. Hopefully they'll still be a player in the next gen.

http://www.digitalworldtokyo.com/2006/11/kutaragi_removed_from_job_in_s.php

They don't need hope. Or need I remind you (again) that they ARE a player in the next gen. In every quantifiable way that counts Sony still has the number 2 console and they are on track to have the number one... again.

Nintendo sold 600k Wiis at 249 dollars. Every PS3 on earth (all 500,000 of them minus about 12 in Chicago) has been sold at 500 dollars or more. There isn't a single PS3 available in all of Japan. But that statistic is insignificant compared to their market share.

Konami, Capcom, Namco, Rockstar, and a dozen other companies are working on PS3 exclusive titles. Unlike the Wii, the PS3 ports of other titles (with the sole exception of Tony Hawk 8) are already online. For that reason alone they are already number 2 in online console gaming. Just as they always were. The Wii is backwards compatible with the GC, but the PS3 is backwards compatible with both the PS1 and the PS2, and even if they aren't 100 percent compatible they still have the largest library of available games BY FAR.

I think it's not the gaming division... but the entire Sony corporation as a whole that needs a new leader. The Video Game, computer, television, and movie divisions should all be working in perfect synergy. PS3s should come with at least one Columbia pictures Movie and a couple of Sony Music MP3s as samples. There should be easy ways for all sony devices to work. Hell... I should be able to connect my aging VX2000 camcorder to an add-on USB/Firewire converter and encode video in real time or use it as a webcam.

But let's not kid ourselves about Sony's market dominance. Even at their weakest they're still one of the most powerful corporations on earth and THE biggest player in the video game market period.

[Elif Tymes]

You fail to take into account that all "500 thousand" (I seriously doubt they had that many, hence the quotes) of those consoles sold at a ~$300 loss, for a grand total of - 150 MILLION DOLLARS in LOSS on the consoles alone.

Nintendo has already earned 6 MILLION dollars at least assuming they make $10 profit on each console. Add in the accessories sold and you're looking at 60-100 million dollar profits in 2 weeks.

That's pretty nice compared to a 150 million dollar loss in the same amount of itme for a certain company,

[FudgeNuggets]

Sorry Rainless but they are sitting at #3 right now for these reasons: 1. 360 has a year up on them 2. They wont have as many on the market by the end of the year as Ninentdo has ALREADY sold, not to mention the 4 million more than Ninendo will sell by the end of the year 3. They're the only one of the three that will not be profitable for at least a year or so(if then, that depends on sales and cutting mfg costs).

[Elif Tymes]

Technically, they could very well be profitable in their PS3 related sales, they will not be profitable on just the console, however.

[Neuromancer]

Not sure how this really works, BUT if the PS3 can play the first to Gen games, but you play them at higher resolution, like you can with updated computer equipment, then console gaming would have a great blow against PC gaming IMHO

For me, a console is not worth getting, but that option would really change my ideas.

[rainless]

Not sure how this really works, BUT if the PS3 can play the first to Gen games, but you play them at higher resolution, like you can with updated computer equipment, then console gaming would have a great blow against PC gaming IMHO

For me, a console is not worth getting, but that option would really change my ideas.

Actually the games do play at higher resolution. Even the PS2 had the feature to play PS1 games at higher resolution, and it's the same for the PS3 and PS2 games... (though that's mostly just the way 3D objects are rendered it obviously can't add anything that wasn't programmed already.)

[blueswitch]

2nd?...Sony is playing 3rd fiddle by a margin right now with the PS3...The article isn't just about PS3 though they mention poor PSP sales too. I don't feel sorry for him, Ken's arrogance over the PS3 is annoying like at E3 how he basically told you you need this and $600 was such a bargain and how it should cost you even more....and something about a gourmet diner. As far as backwards compatibility on PS3 I never knew you had to buy a special adapter to plug your old memory cards into it....IGN just posted an article on how it's a piece of junk. Don't know why they couldn't put PS2 memory card slots in it...My Wii has gamecube memory card slots in it and thats the budget console. Or maybe I should be saying magic gate adapter...OOooo flash memory is magic I forgot.

[rainless]

Sorry Rainless but they are sitting at #3 right now for these reasons: 1. 360 has a year up on them 2. They wont have as many on the market by the end of the year as Ninentdo has ALREADY sold, not to mention the 4 million more than Ninendo will sell by the end of the year 3. They're the only one of the three that will not be profitable for at least a year or so(if then, that depends on sales and cutting mfg costs).

Well I can understand financially they've taken a loss and 360 has the largest next gen library. But the PS3 already has more games than the Wii, those games are already online, Sony has more developers, and with the combined PS1/PS2 library Sony has more games PERIOD.

Your turn.

[Falcon-K]

"According to Harrison, unlike how the PS2 would enhance PS1 games with texture smoothing and what not, the PS3 will offer no such visual enhancements (including resolution enhancements) for the previous generation titles. "They are as exactly as they were," said Harrison, who claims Sony preferred to rather deliver them in their original state."

[Elif Tymes]

Ha. Ouch. So I get to play Twisted Metal in 320x200 on my 1080p screen that I JUST HAD TO HAVE for the PS3.

Eck. Stretch marks

[FudgeNuggets]

Sony has more developers, and with the combined PS1/PS2 library Sony has more games PERIOD.
Your turn.

Not when "N" makes the entire catalog of NES, SNES, N64 and GC games available. I don't thin Sony has more developers than Microsoft anymore, most are on board with MS and the 360 now. Seriously though, when you get a new system, how often do you find yourself going back and playing all those old games? You're too enthrawled with the new ones to do that so I'm eliminating the back catalog from the argument. People were all up in arms over the 360 not being 100% backwards compat, then they found out they could play the Halo games and Forza and then were like "ok, we're good".

[rainless]

Not when "N" makes the entire catalog of NES, SNES, N64 and GC games available. I don't thin Sony has more developers than Microsoft anymore, most are on board with MS and the 360 now. Seriously though, when you get a new system, how often do you find yourself going back and playing all those old games? You're too enthrawled with the new ones to do that so I'm eliminating the back catalog from the argument. People were all up in arms over the 360 not being 100% backwards compat, then they found out they could play the Halo games and Forza and then were like "ok, we're good".

Well the back catalog comes into play the minute you say Sony is THIRD, and imply that they're third right now. Because there simply aren't that many games for either Wii or PS3 right now... but people can still play all the Major PS2 games. GTA, Socom, God of War, God of war 2... Etc... Etc... That Okagami game or whatever that just came out. Naruto Ultimate Ninja. I mean the PS2 catalog is a pretty big deal.

Mario Brothers and Duck Hunt aren't going to touch Metal Gear Solid 1, 2, and 3 Subsistence.

[AngelfireUk83]

Well wasn't it him who didn't sign on the dotted line for exclusive games to PS3 only now Assassins Creed and GTA5 are all multi format (which I would prefer for the gaming world to have a taste).

[Daleon]

You don't get a magically boost to graphics quality sticking a PS1 game into a PS2 or a PS2 game into a PS3. If anything, its mainly from maybe having a better quality connection to a higher quality tv. Console games are just not made with open resolution standards that PC games are. So its not even close to getting a new 8800GTX and popping the res up to 1600 and 4xAA and 16xAF etc.

I'd hardly say PS3 has more games than Wii right now. I typically see about 8-10 titles at most stores for both systems. Both have a good number of games shipping in Dec, Jan, etc.

I've got a PS2 and am enjoying FFXII quite a bit atm. FFXIII looks great, and if it is and other great games come out it will help push PS3 sales. Right now, sorry I have no OMG I GOTTA PLAY feelings for any PS3 titles. You have to atleast acknowledge Zelda is a tier1 franchise titles. Just like FF, Halo, MGS, etc. These titles drive console sales. For this reason alone Wii is in a better posistion right now.

I also bet N makes a good bit more than $10 per console. I wouldn't be suprised if they were clearing $50-75 per console. At 4 million consoles, do you have any idea how much cash that is. That means they will be flush with money to develop ALOT of quality games and do some cool things much faster than Sony whose loosing money left and right. Most PS3 titles are made by outside developers. Sony gets their money by charging for development kits and a small piece of the action for each sale probably. So until some of the bigger games come out that sell a million each they won't be making any money.

[rainless]

You don't get a magically boost to graphics quality sticking a PS1 game into a PS2 or a PS2 game into a PS3. If anything, its mainly from maybe having a better quality connection to a higher quality tv. Console games are just not made with open resolution standards that PC games are. So its not even close to getting a new 8800GTX and popping the res up to 1600 and 4xAA and 16xAF etc.

I'd hardly say PS3 has more games than Wii right now. I typically see about 8-10 titles at most stores for both systems. Both have a good number of games shipping in Dec, Jan, etc.

I've got a PS2 and am enjoying FFXII quite a bit atm. FFXIII looks great, and if it is and other great games come out it will help push PS3 sales. Right now, sorry I have no OMG I GOTTA PLAY feelings for any PS3 titles. You have to atleast acknowledge Zelda is a tier1 franchise titles. Just like FF, Halo, MGS, etc. These titles drive console sales. For this reason alone Wii is in a better posistion right now.

I also bet N makes a good bit more than $10 per console. I wouldn't be suprised if they were clearing $50-75 per console. At 4 million consoles, do you have any idea how much cash that is. That means they will be flush with money to develop ALOT of quality games and do some cool things much faster than Sony whose loosing money left and right. Most PS3 titles are made by outside developers. Sony gets their money by charging for development kits and a small piece of the action for each sale probably. So until some of the bigger games come out that sell a million each they won't be making any money.

First of all I do acknowledge that Zelda is a tier 1 Franchise. It's right up there with Halo, Metal Gear, you name it. I also acknowledge it's the only reason Wiis aren't currently going for 200 bucks on Ebay. Because, without Zelda, people would just be extremely upset at Red Steel, and eventually bored of Wii Sports.

Second, you just said you are playing and enjoying Final Fantasy XII... on the PS2 I presume. Well you could also play and enjoy it on the PS3. Along with all the other PS2 heavy hitters that still greatly outnumber the GC heavy hitters. (I don't think anybody is going to be crazy enough to argue that point.)

And third, just because Nintendo is going to MAKE 4 million systems doesn't mean they are going to SELL 4 million systems by the end of the year. It took Microsoft a whole year to sell 6 million 360s. Don't get your hopes up about Nintendo selling 4 million wiis in a month and a half. But if you'd care to wager...

[Daleon]

But really, why would I buy a PS3 to play a PS2 game? Especially when I have a PS2 :)

The load times are pretty nasty on the PS2. So if I didn't already have a PS2, the load times were better, PS3's were actually in stock in stores, and I was made of money I'd definitely buy one. But none of those are a fact, sadly to say but I do hope to one day be made of money and then I could actually give my right arm for a console heh.

And if Zelda wasn't out, then I'd still be having fun with Trauma Center, CoD3, Madden, and Rayman.

True, it would be hard for N to sell all 4 million units. But not impossible I think. I'm sure the majority of the 360's sold are here in the US. N is a little more popular than MS in Japan, a huge gaming market. The lower price will also help propel it in sales. I'd expect a million+ sold here in the US alone, 1.5 mil+ in all of NA. A mil strong in Japan and the rest of Asian market. And closing in somewhere around a mil for Europe. So 3 mil+ conservately is probably not much of a leap.

[Prodromo]

Nintendo will clear their number. Every wii shipment is sold out with the hour at every store I've been to. It is THAT fun. Zelda is THAT good.

Sucks that Rainless is the only one rooting for PS3 but...it's a letdown. No one is buying a PS3 to play PS2 and PS1 games. It's a nice addition to the system but don't be ridiculous. Although the Wii and PS3 have a similar number of games, it's not a similar number of good games. The Wii definately has more games with better reviews, by players and reviewers alike. Sure The exclusive titles that use huge budgets to develop games to actually take advantage of its potential will be nice, but enough to get Sony out of the hole they've dug...I think not.

I have an Xbox 360 and since two days ago a Wii. Both systems own. I doubt I need a ps3 ever, since developers are wising up and getting out of their exclusive deals with Sony.

[rainless]

The Wii definately has more games with better reviews, by players and reviewers alike.

Really? Show me the review page of Gamespot, IGN, and anywhere other than Nintendo Power and that crazy UK gaming site where the Wii has better reviews.

Matter of fact... don't bother:

PS3 Reviews

http://www.gamespot.com/reviews.html?type=reviews&platform=1028&tag=subnav;reviews

Wii Reviews

http://www.gamespot.com/reviews.html?type=reviews&platform=1031&tag=subnav;reviews

Add them up and make an average and you tell me who has the better reviews.

And keep in mind, I'm rooting for all three systems. I'm just tired of people spreading misinformation.

[blueswitch]

Sucks that Rainless is the only one rooting for PS3

I agree Rainless seems to be the only one defending PS3....seems frustrating but I guess people just arn't impressed by it.

So to bring some order on the debate of launch titles between PS3 and Wii, and since it's come up that Zelda is the only good title for Wii I decided to look at every Wii and PS3 review on IGN...plug them into excel and get the averages.

PS3 with 16 reviews average score: 7.19375

Wii with 14 reviews average score: 7.364285714

So don't tell me Zelda is the only game Wii has...there are quite a few solid 8's on the list.....That being said neither one of them have impressive launch line ups....both of those averages are being seriously padded by Zelda and Resistence...both consoles have 1 strong title and some medicore titles right now.

EDIT: WoW rainless....when I was posting my average results your suggestion to do that wasn;t posted yet...LOL:beer:

[Enablingwolf]

The Wii definately has more games with better reviews, by players and reviewers alike.

It is a whole system not just part of it.

The Wii has a lot of catching up to do in terms of getting a solid base of game titles. Sony has held a nice position in keeping a lot of games for the system, for a long time. To top the jar off. They are ready right now. Keep in mind Wii has nothing in terms of backwards right now. later on sure, right now, nope.

It has been years since Nintendo has had a diverse library. To me Nintendo has a lot to prove here, and that won't show for another few months what they will be offering and if they are any good. +1 Sony. :D Since the machine can play releases right up to when they stop making PS2 games. Then you can start adding PS3 titles. :D

Drawing from all the PS1 and 2 collections. The Wii can't do that. Sure it can draw from the NES era, but it is not the what kajillion titles ready and willing to be played on the PS3 right now. To me no one seems to put that into consideration. The Wii will get going in a few months. Right now, the reviews are all dazzle. Look in July, then ask yourself the same question about reviews.

Sure your referring to PS3 and Wii titles. Though for amount of content right now, Wii is a little shy of games.

I bought a PS2 for the huge library available and some gems inside the such diverse collection. You can't count out Sony for killer games. They are and will be a powerhouse for some time to come.

[AngelfireUk83]

The Wii has a lot of catching up to do in terms of getting a solid base of game titles.

Yes like I said in 1 post before please don't have DISNEY/Catoon spoof games on Wii more than anything like Metroid Prime, Zelda and Mario/Karts. All I see now for GameCube is games like Shrek & Scooby Doo.

[Trombe]

Averages for each platform (All reviewed games)
PS3: 7.05 [out of all 16 available games]
Wii: 6.50 [out of all 26 available games]

^ Pretty useless stats. Specific reviewers can be biased out of reason.

[blueswitch]

Averages for each platform (All reviewed games)
PS3: 7.05 [out of all 16 available games]
Wii: 6.50 [out of all 26 available games]

^ Pretty useless stats. Specific reviewers can be biased out of reason.


Oh yeah I agree.....the fact of the matter is both systems averages come out to junk..there is only 1 great title on each platform and a handful of mediocre titles followed by an onslaught of junk. for BOTH consoles

[Enablingwolf]

Yes like I said in 1 post before please don't have DISNEY/Catoon spoof games on Wii more than anything like Metroid Prime, Zelda and Mario/Karts. All I see now for GameCube is games like Shrek & Scooby Doo.
Someone actually paid attention to GameCube titles? :rolleyes: That platform only had a limited appealing collection. At least to any degree to someone over 13. I did not consider any gamer would look to that platform comparing content that is backwards comaptable. lol I would of assumed the NES titles bieng more diverse and compelling games.

It would assume most gamrers would admit, the PS has it going on for masses of compelling titles. I mean the here and now, since we all know some games get dummped at the last moment. So I do not think of the 'whats to come. More of a lets wait and see, hey toss in a game until then.'

To be honest, what happened to comparing against the XBox. Did that evaporate all the sudden in comaprisons? It is still a console that is this gen if I remember correctly. So XBOX should have the best spot for reviews.

[tenchi86]

The PS3 is doing just fine, in Japan I believe all 80k units were sold out in what under 3 hours? People say that things are all starting over but that is not true, many people who have a PS2 are going to want a PS3 over anything else. This is due to them liking the system and them already have a ton of games for it. I am happy for Nintendo to finally have a system that seem like it may sell because it's a Holiday season and they have enough units to supply the public, and I am glad Xbox has had a year to try and get a lead on the system market. That doesn't change the fact that Sony stole the console world from Nintendo with the PS3 and most likely will not be giving it back, at least not without a fight.

[rainless]

Oh yeah I agree.....the fact of the matter is both systems averages come out to junk..there is only 1 great title on each platform and a handful of mediocre titles followed by an onslaught of junk. for BOTH consoles

Well I just don't get people saying the Wii has "Great reviews."

Twilight Princess got an 8.8... which is only .2 points higher than the PS3 launch shooter Resistance, and pretty shoddy for a next gen Zelda game. I understand that a lot of people are die-hard, mario-kart welding Nintendo fans. But too many of them get embroiled and wrapped up in the hype machine, and that only HURTS Nintendo in the long run because they know they can count on those people no matter WHAT they do.

But graphics, online gaming, and market share mean something to developers. It isn't enough that Nintendo is making money selling the systems. Developers have to make money selling the games. And it ain't happening.

Some of you kids weren't even born then... but back in... '93 I think it was? There was a little game released for home systems called "Mortal Kombat." It was released for SNES and it was released for the then-second-place Sega Genesis. The graphics were far inferior in the Genesis version but was truer to the arcade version in that the SNES version was both much slower and it HAD NO BLOOD AND MINIMIZED VIOLENCE. They had fake fatalities instead. And SWEAT... I sh** thee not... SWEAT flew off of your opponent's face when you hit them.

You want to know what happened?

Gamer's went completely APESH**. Mortal Kombat was the biggest game on planet earth at the time, and certainly the biggest console game. Nintendo was trying to be the Family Channel. Sega was trying to win. People SOLD THEIR SNESes and their lame copies of MKI by the thousands and bought Sega's system and their version of the game.

A Sonic 2 and a Shinobi later: "Genesis DOES: what ninten-DON'T."

Sega was number 1.

Well Nintendo got their act together reaaaaaaaaal quick after that. They had a code to get the blood for even Street Fighter II. You didn't even need a code on the SNES version of MKII though. There was blood everywhere. It was faster, it sounded better, and it was superior to the Genesis version in every way. And oh yes... there was blood and fatalities. It was damned near arcade perfect.

Nintendo had learned a lesson they would quickly forget with the releases of Mario Kart, Donkey Kong Country, and eventually Mario 64 and Ocarina of time.

Up until Mario Kart and Donkey Kong Country sold a billion copies each, Nintendo had always relied very heavily on third party developers. Metal Gear 1 and 2 were both Konami games released for NES. Double Dragon I and II were made by Data East. I forget who made Akari Warriors. Then there's Jackal which I believe was made by Konami as well. Of course square made Final Fantasy II on the SNES (one of my all-time favorite games).

But with the overwhelming success of the aforementioned in-house games... and the problems inherent in the production of the Nintendo 64 (originally the Ultra 64 which advertised itself as being released shortly after the arcade hit Killer Instinct... but was infinitely delayed, had a name change, and never released the game on that console), started Nintendo on its trend of downplaying the importance of these third party developers.

This coincided beautifully with the implosion of the Sega Saturn and the birth of the Sony Playstation.

One-by-one Sony picked up the developers that Sega had ****ed-off and Nintendo left behind. Developers that saw infinite possibilities in a CD-based system and Sony's advertising revenue. Companies that had been associated with Nintendo for YEARS, started making Sony exclusives like the first Metal Gear Solid, Ridge Racer, Final Fantasy VII, and a list of some of the greatest video game hits of all time.

These were, and should by all means STILL BE Nintendo partners. But because they know they can always rely on their diehard fans to buy Zelda, Mario Kart, and Metroid... They aren't even going to look the way of third party developers again.

So for the last time... I'm not "rooting for Sony"... I'm hoping, as I hoped with the N64, GC, and now the Wii... that Nintendo fans look close enough at the reality of the company's situation to steer them in the right direction, so we can have three systems, on a level playing field trying everything they can to outdo the other and producing greater and greater games in the process.

...instead of just resting on their laurels.

[sl4vik]

I'd wait for numbers after 1 year since release.

You will find this:

#1 PS3
#2 Xbox 360
#3 Wii

The Wii is not making any good games, they don't have HDTV support, just like the Gamecube. So you can swing around your remote and move stuff on the TV...big deal that technology has been around for ages.

This isn't a Wii bashing, but rather lets face the facts. Sony will tear up the competition as soon as new games like Final Fantasy, Metal Gear solid start arriving on the PS3. From then on, its game over.

[Enablingwolf]

I still think the Wii is going to be a big seller just from its price advantage. That alone is going to put alot of them next to tv sets. Might even force MS to drop the price on thier units some. I don't see Sony dropping prices any time soon.

I noticed today right after I posted last. The first Xbox ad I have seen in ages. With Wii on its own campian. They need to get the name out a bit. So the consumers that will buy without knowing, will not ignore the platform. I would expect the PS3 to follow in the not to distant future. Lets hope they compete for the coolest ads. :thup:

[Elif Tymes]

And you don't see that Sony is doing the same thing this time? They're hitting the third party developers right where it counts, without a large installed customer base, games won't get sold. Period.

[Neuromancer]

Im actually surprised at the success of the Wii. In school today all the guys were talking about was how great it is, or they are getting it.. only one person was trying to get a PS3, and they are getting a Wii instead.

(None of them are PC geeks so I know they werent on the forum here reading aboutit ;) )

[rainless]

And you don't see that Sony is doing the same thing this time? They're hitting the third party developers right where it counts, without a large installed customer base, games won't get sold. Period.

Also... without the games to sell games won't get sold.

You know who has the largest installed customer base of the next gen? Of course you do. Microsoft made a move so intelligent I would've never thought them capable of: Last generation they put out this big, dark grey, powerful, though ugly and heavy-as-hell system. This time they made an extremely powerful, and beautifully-designed system that the iPod and eMac generation wouldn't hesistate to put in their living rooms next to their designer couches.

They made it powerful enough that, even a year later, it could remain competitive with the best system anybody could imagine. They not only ported over and improved on all the functionality of the original system... they made it upgradeable. So that less than a year later they've already got an HD-DVD drive. So that those same people that bought their HDTV stands from Ikea could have one more toy to put on their collapsable shelves.

The year advantage Fudge mentioned is not to be taken likely. But imagine the 20 year advantage Nintendo had in the portable market. Complete and utter domination. Just like they possessed in the old NES days. How big of a market share did the Sega Master system have? 4? 3 percent maybe? 20 years as supreme ruler of the portable gaming market and now Sony has 20 percent. Sony isn't to be taken lightly either. They've got hundreds of developers working around the clock on PSP games. At the very least every multi-console game is ported to the PSP. So that I may play Marvel Ultimate Alliance, Madden, and NBA 2K7 at the airport.

SNK couldn't do it. Wonderswan sure as hell couldn't do it. Sega couldn't do it. And even the mobile juggernaut Nokia couldn't do it.

You want a large installed base? That's what you get with the Sony name. The sleakest and most stylish products in almost every market. Not to say they're always the best... but they almost always look pretty good and they have an entire legion of developers backing them up.

As 2007 heats-up, Microsoft and Sony will be cranking-out hits. This is because they're already working on them as we speak. Some of them (like Halo 3, and MGS4) have already been announced. And those same developers Sony took way back in the N64 days are still working for Sony now.

There's plenty of loose change though. Irrational Games (makers of all kinds of great games) is still loose and could do wonderful things for Nintendo. Capcom could benefit greatly from the inspiration of Nintendo's new controllers (with the exception of the Resident Evil games they've been in an amazing rut for years). There are at least half a dozen others I can think of... if Nintendo was even interested in courting them.

[mista ting]

Sony will tear up the competition as soon as new games like Final Fantasy, Metal Gear solid start arriving on the PS3. From then on, its game over.

QFT

[tenchi86]

Atleast on the channels I watch the 360 is advertised about 90% of the time when it comes to console ads. The PS3 has run some ads and people know about it, but I don't think they really need to pump up the ads until they can produce more systems. The ads now are basically for hype and to counter people buying the Wii or 360.

[rainless]

The thing is I know I can buy a PS3 in 3 installments of 200 bucks. So if I don't go to the bars every weekend for three months... that's a PS3 right there. Rest assured, if the EU version is region-free... I will have one.

[Jotosuds]

i read in EGM that konami is making kojima port MGS4 to xbox 360. couple that with teh fact that GTA4 is coming to both consoles and you lose some compelling reasons to get a PS3. however, you've still got FFXIII's, DMC4, Tekken 6, VF5, etc on PS3...

[mils128]

Ok i am gonna add my 2c

I am thinking after the next year this is what you are going to find

#1 Xbox 360
#2 Wii
#3 PS3

Why?

The Xbox360 hasn't had a drop in price and its been almost a year, the PS3 has already lost money, People just don't like the $600 Price Tag, the Xbox 360 is Mid range has a great selection of games it will be the winner in this (i don't own a 360). The Wii Second because of its Virtual Console Classics, Price tag (rather pay $250 then $600), easy upgradability ( SD Memory Card's), and overall fun factor (I own a Wii). I love the Wii it is the first Console that made me get out of bed just to hit a few baseballs, its inexpensive, unlike the PS3 which has its games at $59.99 most wii games are $49.99. However die hard gamers will go for the 360 cause it will drop in price soon (Micro Center had a $100 MIR on 360's the day after i bought my Wii.

[rainless]

Ok i am gonna add my 2c

I am thinking after the next year this is what you are going to find

#1 Xbox 360
#2 Wii
#3 PS3

Why?

The Xbox360 hasn't had a drop in price and its been almost a year, the PS3 has already lost money, People just don't like the $600 Price Tag, .

Yet they've somehow sold every single PS3 that was made. And when if they make as many as they made last month by Christmas? All those will sell too. And let's not forget there's a $600 AND a $500 price tag.

Nintendo will do well I'm certain... for all the reasons you mentioned. But for all the reasons *I* mentioned, nobody's going to be thrilled about playing digdug on a 1080p TV.

[RedDragonXXX]

We can all argue which is the best console by far, but you are all forgetting one thing ;)

That PS2 is the most selling console in the world!

Even the other day I was watching on G4 one of the Sony guys being interviewed and he mentioned that PS3 will not be #1 console this year, but PS2 will as it always has. Sony may lose $300 on each console sold, but they are making far more then that on PS2 units sold each month and not to mention all the hit titles that practically everyone is playing these days aka FFXII and some other like Okami and soon to be released God of War 2.

This will be the same case with PS3, where PS2 will be making all the profits until all the polished titles start coming out and production values of PS3 go down. This isn't something that we didn't see before. Wii is starting out strong but so did GCube and look where they are now. They had great launch titles but after that there just weren't any games out for it.

It's all about games and Nintendo doesn't have them beside their exclusives which only seem to be release once in consoles lifetime. You can all argue on how PS3 will be pain in the ass for developers to code games for, but do you really think that Wii is any easier?

Not to mention that these days it's all about online gaming and if you don't believe me just look at Xbox. Without Live they wouldn't be nowhere close to where they are today.

From my perspective I just don't see Wii in the same category as 360 and PS3 :shrug:

[Elif Tymes]

And no one who doens't have one already is going to drop 5K on a 1080p TV JUST to play PS3 games :-p. If they were looking at one before, more than likely they will.


And Sony has made less than HALF the consoles that Nintendo has, and less than 1/10th of the consoles the Microsoft has. Yes they've sold them all, but it is already far behind the Wii/360 in installed user base. Maybe they'll catch up if/when they can start producing. Maybe not.

[TollhouseFrank]

Nintendo will do well I'm certain... for all the reasons you mentioned. But for all the reasons *I* mentioned, nobody's going to be thrilled about playing digdug on a 1080p TV.

Yet you forget to think of one critical thing: 95% of america still has not upgraded to HDTV. They don't care about all the new technologies and gadgets and shiny things. They just want what is cheap and works, and with games, fun. Wii does that. They don't have to buy special adapters to use it with thier tv's, unlike with the Xbox 360 or PS3. It just works.

[genghisjohn]

And no one who doens't have one already is going to drop 5K on a 1080p TV JUST to play PS3 games :-p.

A 1080P tv doesn't cost 5K. I think all the systems are great, and I will be getting all 3 eventually. I am curious to see how the Sony online thing will work out. I don't mind paying for quality (Xbox Live), but if sony does it just as good for free....

[RedDragonXXX]

And no one who doens't have one already is going to drop 5K on a 1080p TV JUST to play PS3 games :-p. If they were looking at one before, more than likely they will.


And Sony has made less than HALF the consoles that Nintendo has, and less than 1/10th of the consoles the Microsoft has. Yes they've sold them all, but it is already far behind the Wii/360 in installed user base. Maybe they'll catch up if/when they can start producing. Maybe not.

This is just an example of a post where people will just say anything regardless if the actual fact listed are non-existent :rolleyes:

5K for a 1080p TV :confused:

Right of top of my head I can tell you that you can buy a 37" 1080p TV for under $1300.

LINK (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16889234001)

And that took me less then 5min to find.

[Elif Tymes]

Ahh I guess they're not as expensive as I thought... I was looking at projectors, which are in a price range all their own I guess, lol.

[FudgeNuggets]

I laugh at whoever made the comment that Sony has sold every console they made. They made less than 200k consoles, Nintendo sold out on well over a million, this time last year Microsoft sold out on 1.2 million 360s. Sure they sold out, it's new and it's rare, people were hoarding them and listing them on Scam-Bay wanting to make a $2k profit. Wait until June or July, there will be about 10-12 million 360s sold, 8-10 million Wiis and less than 3 million PS3s. Sony's not even going to be able to produce a million by January and after the newness wears off and Christmas is over, MANY people are not going to drop $500-$600 on it.

Back on topic though, if they're reassigning people in lead positions this early in the game, Sony is not pleased with what has transpired. You didn't see Allard or Balmer get shipped off to the board or assigned to work on Vista right after the 360 was released and you surely won't see Miyamoto go anywhere anytime.

[RedDragonXXX]

Yet you forget to think of one critical thing: 95% of america still has not upgraded to HDTV. They don't care about all the new technologies and gadgets and shiny things. They just want what is cheap and works, and with games, fun. Wii does that. They don't have to buy special adapters to use it with thier tv's, unlike with the Xbox 360 or PS3. It just works.

Yet you forget that number of HDTV owners is approaching 25 million (http://www.tvpredictions.com/usatodayhd101606.htm) in the US alone and that future of TV lies in HDTV weather you like it or not.

You are confusing the number of people that are watching HDTV programing with number of actual HDTV owners.

BIG DIFFERENCE!

So people please if you can't back up your own facts don't make them up.

[tenchi86]

If it's funny Sony sold out and MS sold 1.2 million then why make a thread about how the Wii is doing so well because it sold 600k? People say 600$ is a large price, but I from what I remember nearly everyone of my classmates in high school got a ring that costed more around 700$s. Maybe it's just me but I much rather have a system then a ring. The price is terribly high, but you get a great system with it. I remember last year everyone said the 360 was to much and would not sell, but look at it now we are all calling it a midrange system. It will take time but the PS2 users will eventually switch and they are going to be slightly biased to switch to a PS3 rather then a 360 or Wii.

[Daleon]

Also realize that the MAJORITY of the PS3's sold were bought by speculators. Guys looking to resell and make money. I really wonder just how easy it would have been to get one if there had not been the Ebay fever surrounding them. Because I know lots of serious gamers would not have gone right out and bought one. There just is not a game worth $700 out right now for the freaking PS3, just freaking realize that. And why buy first batch products that are more likely to have defects instead of just waiting for a game thats worth it and getting a later revision.

And why the hell do ppl keep saying the Wii has no freaking online. That just goes to show how SERIOUSLY uninformed some of you Wii bashers are. Take it from someone with a Wii, it has PLENTY of online capability. Its got built-in wirless for freaks sake, a big plus over the other consoles. Especially MS's $100 wireless adapater rip-off. So yes, the Wii is online. And the games will be online very soon.

[RedDragonXXX]

I bought 360 first day it came out even thought it didn't have any good games and would buy PS3 as well simply cause I can use it as a Blu-Ray player.

[Daleon]

I bought 360 first day it came out even thought it didn't have any good games and would buy PS3 as well simply cause I can use it as a Blu-Ray player.

Cool, so what kind of TV you got?
If its a nice 1080p thats cool, just I know someone who said this same thing. He has a 10 year old 19" standard tv thats got nothing but a coaxial input.

[tenchi86]

People are not saying the Wii does not have online, they are saying until next year no games will support it. Also those console only went to ebay because people could sell them. One way or another the consoles were sold. Oh and speaking up misinformed the PS3 does not cost 700$s

[Enablingwolf]

People are not saying the Wii does not have online, they are saying until next year no games will support it. Also those console only went to ebay because people could sell them. One way or another the consoles were sold. Oh and speaking up misinformed the PS3 does not cost 700$s
:rolleyes: Your right it does not cost $700. It cost much more. After all the add ons and games.

I seen it should be like $599 or so.

The Wii will do good for its price point. Nintendo cut costs somewhere. Sony did not pull any stops on thier machine. So the price is much more. A $250 machine compared to a $600 machine. Which one has more features?:shrug: Actually comparing them against each other is rather silly. They each are in their own price point. Like the 360 is in it's own price.

There is a console for every income level now.The Sony has top and bottom. Since the PS2 is still a very viable platform. The 360 will hold its happy medium for some time. Unless they want to go head to head in a budget machine duel with the Wii. I think the machines are only $100 from each other. Drop the price $75 and I might consider the 360 over the Wii. Make it even.. Heck yeah I would get a 360 over a Wii.

[Falcon-K]

If it's funny Sony sold out and MS sold 1.2 million then why make a thread about how the Wii is doing so well because it sold 600k? People say 600$ is a large price, but I from what I remember nearly everyone of my classmates in high school got a ring that costed more around 700$s. Maybe it's just me but I much rather have a system then a ring. The price is terribly high, but you get a great system with it. I remember last year everyone said the 360 was to much and would not sell, but look at it now we are all calling it a midrange system. It will take time but the PS2 users will eventually switch and they are going to be slightly biased to switch to a PS3 rather then a 360 or Wii.

Nintendo sold out as well, its just they sold out 3x the units that sony did in a few days less time. That is why the wii is considered 2nd place right now. Gamers are not that loyal, a fanboy can switch teams as fast as they can chant NINTENDO FOR LIFE! or SONY FoR LIFE! Nintendo dominated back in the NES and SNES and look at how N64 or gamecube did. Nintendo has also stated that they are still projecting to manufacturer and sell 4 million wii's by year end.

"EA thinks they're still "exaggerating" a bit, and we might actually end up with around 500,000 to 800,000 units by year's end in North America -- as opposed to the 1-1.2 million currently being predicted by Sony"

What company would you want to spend millions developing a game for? One that has 600k customers or one that has 4 million or 10 million (wii/360)? If we use the projected numbers, sony is only going to have around 4% of the next gen market by years end thats a much different picture than we saw at the start of the last generation.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,104579-page,1/article.html

Each generation is largely decided on its own, not as much on history as a lot of people think. The PS2 may have been the best selling console ever but that doesnt mean the PS3 is going to. Games are what ultimately what sells a console and if sony cant make enough consoles fast enough to keep up with the competition a lot of exclusive games that would have been a sony-only lock on the PS2 just might be a wii/ps3/360 or at least 360/ps3 this generation. Not everyone will just wait months and months to get a PS3, when they can enjoy awesome games like Gears of War on the 360.

I dont think sony will have a problem selling consoles, I just think that they will have a problem making enough of them. They did a pretty bad job setting this up. Huge costs, brand new technology that is hard to produce in mass quantities, a full year behind their direct competitor, loss of exclusive titles(GTA4, Assassins creed, ect). Not to mention sony as a company has had a rough couple years with rootkits, huge losses, ect.

[Daleon]

People are not saying the Wii does not have online, they are saying until next year no games will support it. Also those console only went to ebay because people could sell them. One way or another the consoles were sold. Oh and speaking up misinformed the PS3 does not cost 700$s

Please, plenty of ppl are spreading the Wii has no online rumor constantly. Considering next year is a month away, I'd hardly say that it would even be worth ever mentioning, yet it constantly is.

And if you get everything tax free, then your great. Rest of us have to pay taxes, and taxes on $600 is not cheap. And if you just want to let it sit there, and collect dust, then yeah it won't quite hit that $700 mark. But you won't have any games, because Sony doesn't bundle one HA, and even if you just wanted it for a Blu-Ray player you'd have to go out and rent or buy one. So your going to spend more money than $600 no mater what.

---
I know I'm taking the Wii > PS3 stance, but it in no way means I'm a fanboy. I just love good arguments, I'll take either side lol. If the PS3 had launched with MGS4 or FFXIII I prolly would be trying to get one.

[Enablingwolf]

Yet you forget that number of HDTV owners is approaching 25 million (http://www.tvpredictions.com/usatodayhd101606.htm) in the US alone and that future of TV lies in HDTV weather you like it or not.

You are confusing the number of people that are watching HDTV programing with number of actual HDTV owners.

BIG DIFFERENCE!

So people please if you can't back up your own facts don't make them up.
With only 300 million (http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/population/007616.html) reported in the US. (No telling how many of the 34.3 million (http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/007276.html) who come to America each year. Are not reported to own a HD set. Plus the illegals.) That still is not a huge number owning a HDTV. Yes, it seems like a lot who actually own a HD set, a very large number. Though in population percentage, it is not that high actually. There is still many homes that do not have a HD set then the small percentage who do own one.

I can easily see the number of 25 million owners. I wonder where the number was pulled from actually. The article said it was a call to an electronics analyst Mike Paxton with researcher In-Stat. How did they almagamte the numbers and from where? Though it does seem very plausible for that amount.

I read this part twice. It kind of confused me at first. There was one number for 20 million, then 8.5. right after that, two uses of the same number. I wil go the high road and take the 25 million on a stand bieng watched.

The newspaper writes that the HDTV DVD players are impacting HDTV sales as well. "About 8.5 million U.S. households, or 7 percent, have HD television sets, says electronics analyst Mike Paxton with researcher In-Stat," USA Today states.

TVPredictions.com today contacted Paxton by phone. He told us that 8.5 million households are watching high-def on a nightly basis, not that 8.5 million have high-def sets. He says the number of high-def households is actually approaching 25 million. (The difference in the numbers is that many of the HD households do not have the high-def tuners necessary to display HD signals.)

There is three numbers in the article. All the article does is descredit the USA Today peice. It does not provide solid evidence on actual numbers. Just a call. This makes me very curious. Am I missing something here?

Even though...

It is still a small number who own a HDTV versus the trusty old outdated analog sets. As the prices drop, and older sets break. HDTV will be a very common thing in everyone's den. Give it a couple of years for the prices to sink in to consumers. This year was the healthiest price drop the HDTV I have seen so far. They are actually getting in reach of most wallets now. Not so cheap to run out and get one right away though.

[RedDragonXXX]

Yea that confused me as well, but what they mean is that 8.5 million of HDTV owners are watching HDTV programing but total number of HDTV owners in US is somewhere around 25 million.

I know it's off topic but I read somewhere that analog TV programing will be completely cut off by 2009-10.

[Jawsome]

Please, plenty of ppl are spreading the Wii has no online rumor constantly. Considering next year is a month away, I'd hardly say that it would even be worth ever mentioning, yet it constantly is.


Where the Wii currently lacks in the online multiplayer department, it is MORE than making up for it in terms of offline multiplayer, and will continue to dominate offline multiplayer even after the Wii goes online in 2007.

[Enablingwolf]

Yea that confused me as well, but what they mean is that 8.5 million of HDTV owners are watching HDTV programing but total number of HDTV owners in US is somewhere around 25 million.

I know it's off topic but I read somewhere that analog TV programing will be completely cut off by 2009-10.
They keep pushing it back. Right now it seems to be in motion to really happen this time. The technology is catching up finally with the average consumers wallet. Now lets get the sets in the homes. The price drops on the sets and all the great features for all this aswome tech can take advantage of the the actual HD part of it. Right now, the majority are still anolog. So most users won't want all the bells and whistles or be able to use that one selling point. Even care about it as a selling point. [on topic kind of?]

That is partially why the Wii is a good bet right now for many consumers. It did not go after something most don't have yet. While keeping costs lower too. Pretty soon, the Wii will be the red headed step child and be left behind. Since in a few years I assume over half of the homes will be HDTV. By then, we should see the next gen of screens. The PS3 has it going on for the next few years. As does the 360.

[FudgeNuggets]

SONY=SEGA????

I didn't want to create a separate thread because it relates directly to this, but this is interesting. I doubt it though as Sony has been trying to get AWAY from software, not strenghten their development of it. If they lose their ass on the PS3, I think they'll just drop the idea of games altogether.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/f6728ed8-8095-11db-9096-0000779e2340.html
http://uk.gamespot.com/news/6162560.html

[TollhouseFrank]

Yet you forget that number of HDTV owners is approaching 25 million (http://www.tvpredictions.com/usatodayhd101606.htm) in the US alone and that future of TV lies in HDTV weather you like it or not.

You are confusing the number of people that are watching HDTV programing with number of actual HDTV owners.

BIG DIFFERENCE!

So people please if you can't back up your own facts don't make them up.

simple maths:

25million hdtv users divided by 300 million population = 8% of population has HDTV. So, I stand by my statement as I was only 3% off.

[NOThelagak]

Also... without the games to sell games won't get sold.

You know who has the largest installed customer base of the next gen? Of course you do. Microsoft made a move so intelligent I would've never thought them capable of: Last generation they put out this big, dark grey, powerful, though ugly and heavy-as-hell system. This time they made an extremely powerful, and beautifully-designed system that the iPod and eMac generation wouldn't hesistate to put in their living rooms next to their designer couches.

They made it powerful enough that, even a year later, it could remain competitive with the best system anybody could imagine. They not only ported over and improved on all the functionality of the original system... they made it upgradeable. So that less than a year later they've already got an HD-DVD drive. So that those same people that bought their HDTV stands from Ikea could have one more toy to put on their collapsable shelves.

The year advantage Fudge mentioned is not to be taken likely. But imagine the 20 year advantage Nintendo had in the portable market. Complete and utter domination. Just like they possessed in the old NES days. How big of a market share did the Sega Master system have? 4? 3 percent maybe? 20 years as supreme ruler of the portable gaming market and now Sony has 20 percent. Sony isn't to be taken lightly either. They've got hundreds of developers working around the clock on PSP games. At the very least every multi-console game is ported to the PSP. So that I may play Marvel Ultimate Alliance, Madden, and NBA 2K7 at the airport.

SNK couldn't do it. Wonderswan sure as hell couldn't do it. Sega couldn't do it. And even the mobile juggernaut Nokia couldn't do it.

You want a large installed base? That's what you get with the Sony name. The sleakest and most stylish products in almost every market. Not to say they're always the best... but they almost always look pretty good and they have an entire legion of developers backing them up.

As 2007 heats-up, Microsoft and Sony will be cranking-out hits. This is because they're already working on them as we speak. Some of them (like Halo 3, and MGS4) have already been announced. And those same developers Sony took way back in the N64 days are still working for Sony now.

There's plenty of loose change though. Irrational Games (makers of all kinds of great games) is still loose and could do wonderful things for Nintendo. Capcom could benefit greatly from the inspiration of Nintendo's new controllers (with the exception of the Resident Evil games they've been in an amazing rut for years). There are at least half a dozen others I can think of... if Nintendo was even interested in courting them.

holy crap rain, that was almost a wii compliment. im suprised.

[FudgeNuggets]

simple maths:

25million hdtv users divided by 300 million population = 8% of population has HDTV. So, I stand by my statement as I was only 3% off.

Not so simple maths:
300 million people include 3 month old babies and 6 year old kids who obviously cannot buy a HDTV.

Average persons per household is close to 3, so 300,000,000 / 3 = 100,000,000 and 100,000,000 / 25,000,000 = 25% but then again that can be misleading because I'll bet a few households have more than one HDTV.

[RedDragonXXX]

simple maths:

25million hdtv users divided by 300 million population = 8% of population has HDTV. So, I stand by my statement as I was only 3% off.

Not if that 3% represent 9,000,000 people and good point Fudge.

[rainless]

holy crap rain, that was almost a wii compliment. im suprised.

Well I like the cute little gimmick controllers, too. :)

I think they'll wind up as useful as an umbrella in a hurricane... But at least they're cute...

[Will Eatforfood]

Nintendo will clear their number. Every wii shipment is sold out with the hour at every store I've been to. It is THAT fun. Zelda is THAT good.

---

since developers are wising up and getting out of their exclusive deals with Sony.

Agreed. Sony might have great titles lined up for next year, but from production costs, they will push out nowhere near as many units as Nintendo, and Xbox360. The selling point of the N is price and the innovative factor. The Xbox will meet halfway with great games and great hardware. Both have a large group of consumer supporters already. The reason to buy a PS3 will be similar to that of the PS2's which is a larger collection of games. But if the installed user base is tiny, Sony will have a handicap for early 2007 from lack of revenues from console sales. Developers are true only to profits, and I think they want a medium to reach the most people so many, won't jump ship, but cross platforms. Sony will atone of course, but after taking a loss and pouring more money down the drain like the original Xbox. Except their hardware will still cost a lot and cater to the hardcore/rich.

*A little off topic, but has anyone seen the PS3 commercial where there is a room with a crying child and then an aura and a PS3 drops out of nowhere? lol, that could easily compete for one of the most senseless ads of all time.

[TollhouseFrank]

Not so simple maths:
300 million people include 3 month old babies and 6 year old kids who obviously cannot buy a HDTV.

Average persons per household is close to 3, so 300,000,000 / 3 = 100,000,000 and 100,000,000 / 25,000,000 = 25% but then again that can be misleading because I'll bet a few households have more than one HDTV.


i'm betting it's probably closer to 12-15% max, and even then, it's probably easy to estimate that of those, likely only 25% of them will ever buy a ps3

[hUMANbEATbOX]

you guys ever seen shows like "unique whips"? rich people alone are buying like 5 of these things PER VEHICLE!! oh, and go review MTV Cribs...that's where all these tv's are going. ;)

[tenchi86]

Please, plenty of ppl are spreading the Wii has no online rumor constantly. Considering next year is a month away, I'd hardly say that it would even be worth ever mentioning, yet it constantly is.

And if you get everything tax free, then your great. Rest of us have to pay taxes, and taxes on $600 is not cheap. And if you just want to let it sit there, and collect dust, then yeah it won't quite hit that $700 mark. But you won't have any games, because Sony doesn't bundle one HA, and even if you just wanted it for a Blu-Ray player you'd have to go out and rent or buy one. So your going to spend more money than $600 no mater what.

---
I know I'm taking the Wii > PS3 stance, but it in no way means I'm a fanboy. I just love good arguments, I'll take either side lol. If the PS3 had launched with MGS4 or FFXIII I prolly would be trying to get one.

Sounds more like you have mistaken what most peopel say. Also you cannot include the price of games or tax in the price of a console thats completly ridicules. Next time stick with the type story.

[Enablingwolf]

i'm betting it's probably closer to 12-15% max, and even then, it's probably easy to estimate that of those, likely only 25% of them will ever buy a ps3

I would reverse that altogether. How many of the PS3 owners will buy a HDTV? :D Least that did not have one prior to purchase.

[TollhouseFrank]

I would reverse that altogether. How many of the PS3 owners will buy a HDTV? :D Least that did not have one prior to purchase.

i'll give you that..... if you are willing to spend ~1k on a system just for the base system, controllers, and some games, why not spend another 1.5k for an hdtv?

[NOThelagak]

Well I like the cute little gimmick controllers, too. :)

I think they'll wind up as useful as an umbrella in a hurricane... But at least they're cute...


ahhh, the backhanded compliments of the french. haha, j/k

[zexmarquies01]

Also you cannot include the price of games or tax in the price of a console thats completly ridicules. Next time stick with the type story.

Why not? who here is going to buy a Xbox360/Wii/PS3 without getting any games? Would you? Would i? Would rainless or oni?

Of coarse everyone will be buying a game with the console! or it WILL sit and collect dust.

not including tax, the cheapest you can get a Wii and play it is 300 bucks ( not including wii-sports )

the 360's base price is 360 bucks. 300 console + 60 game, or 460 if you get the premium model.

PS3 is 500 + 60. 560 bucks for the cheapest. or 660 if you get the premium model.

[Oni]

ahhh, the backhanded compliments of the french. haha, j/k

That's actually closer to damning with faint praise.