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P4C800-E Deluxe - Bottleneck?

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Coach3K

Registered
Joined
Dec 21, 2006
Location
Iowa
Good morning,

I've been a lurker for a long time and when I put my computer together back in '04, this site was invaluable.

I'm currently trying to piecemeal-upgrade my rig, and I wanted to get some feedback on a few things.

You can see my current setup in my signature, but here are the core components: P4 2.6c on P4C800-E Deluxe, ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 128 MB, kit of 2x Geil 512 MB PC4000 RAM, with the stock PSU that came in my Antec Case (350W).

I'm not looking to upgrade my entire system for a while, and I know this AGP mobo still has some life in it. To that end, a few days ago I ordered a new video card and PSU to power it, since I've heard it needs lots of juice:
--BFG Tech BFGR78256GSOC GeForce 7800GS 256MB GDDR3 AGP
--Antec True Power Trio TP3-650 ATX12V 650W PSU with Three 12V Rails

I basically wanted to stretch my motherboard out as long as I could with an AGP card, while still having decent results in new games coming out in the next few years.

Some of the reviews I saw re: the 7800GS noted that there may be some bottlenecks in systems trying to run this...particularly in the CPU area.

That's what I'm concerned about. I don't know enough about where bottlenecks occur in systems, and particularly in my system on the P4C800-ED, and I was hoping someone may be able to provide some feedback on where to focus my energies.

I currently overclock my system using the following settings:
--Bios Version:08.00.09, ID: P4CED106
--CPU Ext. Freq: 240
--DRAM Freq: 400
--AGP/PCI Freq: 66/33
--CPU Core V: 1.60
--DDR Ref V: 2.75
--AGP VDDQ V: 1.60
--Performance: Auto
--------------------
--RAM Settings: 3-4-4-8
--Ram Burst: 4
--PAT: Auto
--DRAM Idle: Infinite
--DRAM Ref. Rate: 15.6uSec
--Aperture: 128 MB
--------------------
I've got it stable running where it is at 3121mhz with those loose RAM timings. I'm able to run 2 instances (one short, one long) of Prime95 off each logical processor, or 1 instance of blend overnight with no problem at that clock speed. I'm also able to run 3DMark05 and get scores from this setup, fine. CPU temps generally top out around 48C running these tests.

Any time I've tried to tighten up my RAM or increase the clock, I get either boot errors (RAM timings usually) or I get into Windows, but 3DMark05 will give an error (increasing the clock).

So, given my new card and PSU that I'll be putting in, is my system likely to bottleneck somewhere in my current components, and if so, where will that bottleneck probably occur?

Will I need to push my CPU higher, to 250+ to actually make the best use of my new 7800GS, and what would I need to get my CPU speed up to so that it's NOT the bottleneck? If I need to push it further, I'll need to look at what's causing the system to become unstable over 240 and probably look at cooling options beyond air.

Are there settings that I should be tweaking (that I haven't already shown above) that may make the system more stable above 240, or could it just be the older PSU I currently have just doesn't have the juice to push the mobo further than I've pushed it already?

Is my RAM a limiter? I intentionally purchased the PC4000 RAM when I built the rig so I'd have headroom to OC (that's why you get a 2.4/6/8c chip), but I've been looking at upgrading to a 2GB kit (2x1GB) and don't know what the best options would be (don't have a lot to spend - maybe $225-$300), or whether what I have is sufficient for now since I'll be upgrading the entire system within 2 years.

A lot of questions, I know - and parts of this could go in any number of forums, but it ultimately comes down to where the bottleneck is in my system with the new GPU, and how I can remove that bottleneck efficiently on this motherboard.

Any input you have is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
 
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I'd try to cut back on the Vcore. Most people don't go past 1.55 on air cooling. I'm assuming you have a northwood core since it hasn't blown up yet.

To not bottleneck your new CPU you'd have to run your processor upwards of 4-5Ghz. I have the same motherboard with a mobile processor installed, but you don't have that option since all the adaptors are now sold out.

I would suggest getting a bigger CPU cooler and pushing your CPU as far as you can. With DDR-500 you might be able to get 260-275 FSB, depending how how good the ram is. Depending on what chips the ram is made of you could do a Vdimm mod to increase voltage to them. You should also look into a Vdroop mod for the CPU to help stability.
 
Yeah - it's a Northwood - I changed it to specify it in my sig now.

I was guessing that I wouldn't be able to reach the max potential of the new card with this mobo/CPU combo. It's good to get it confirmed, and know how far off I'll be able to get, so I won't feel like if I "just tweak it a little more, maybe I'll hit the max." I'm guessing I'll still get some pretty decent performance gains in games and benchmarks, however.

It also helps to know that with every inch of performance I squeeze out of my CPU/Memory, I'll never reach a point where the graphics card is limiting things.

I'd have to do some research, but I'm not likely to do any hardware mods on the RAM or mobo. I don't trust myself with anything hot near these things. :)

I'll keep tweaking away on the ram settings - I've been hesitant to pump the DDR Reference voltage up to 2.85 (highest bios setting), and maybe that's what's keeping the sytem from running at it's rated speed - though I'm also hoping the new PSU will help with that. Edit: It also looks like my ram has D43 chips in it - which should OC fairly well with the relaxed timings I have it at, but it's not. Though I have no idea what component is causing OC failures when it won't boot.

I didn't know I could actually set the vcore below 1.6 in the bios - maybe I just never scrolled down below where it was already on the list. I'll try that.

Thanks for the input - and I welcome any other advice anyone may have. I'd love to have that 2.6 humming along at 3.3 or so.
 
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:welcome::welcome:Here are my settings and what I am getting with a 2.8 and pretty a good heatsink.

CPU EXT FREQ=250 @3.5GHZ
Dram Freq=400
AGP/PCI=66/33
CPU vcore=1.65v
DDR Ref 2.75v
AGP1.6v

Chipset

CAS=3
RAS=4
RAS to CAS=4
PRECHARGE=8
BURST=4

Idler timer=Infinite
Dram refresh Rate=15.6usec
Graphics Aperture size=128mb
Spread spectrum=disabled
Ich delayed transaction=enabled
MPS Revision 1.4

It will go to [email protected] but 3.5 seemed like a nice round number. I did get the 3.5 with the stock heatsink as well.Also had 1GB of 3200RAM from Crucial.Been running like this for a couple of years. The vcore as well, has been running at 1.65 for a couple of years at least.

I can't spot your problem but that 2.6c should run to 3.5ghz

Let me know how that 7800gs runs for you.
 
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You may not get any more out of that 2.6c at all, even after vcore droop
modding my p4p800dlx It still could only get 3.12ghz 100% reliable.
It would complete certain benchmarks up to 3.25ghz but that was it.
If You could track down a ct-479 adaptor somewhere that would be the
best option and then fit a 730, 740, or 750 Pentium M CPU. I stuck a
Zalman 7000b cu heatsink/fan and mine runs reliably up to in excess of 2.7ghz.
good enough for over 31000 in 3dmark2001, thats with also volt modding my
7800gs G70. If your lucky your 7800gs is a G71 version, good for up to 700mhz
on the Gpu core. No point volt modding it if sticking with the p4 though as the
cpu is well and truly the bottleneck, I could only get 19500 out of 3dmark 2001
with my 2.6c. 3dmark2001 is good for cpu bench testing, not much good for
video card testing nowdays.
 
Imperious you should try giving the dothan more volts. :)

I had mine up to 1.7 volts to get to 2.9Ghz stable, but I was on water. CT-479 adaptors are hard to find nowadays. I doubt he'll find one.
 
They do respond well to voltage, however I would need to volt mod the ct-479 adaptor to get 1.7v, and I am happy with the current performance. now that i have
sorted out the overclocked instability with the video card I may try and play
a bit more with the dothan. To be honest it overclocks way better than I
was expecting, some people only got 2.6ghz out of them.
 
Tis the season...for computer tinkering!

The 7800GS OC and PSU came and I have to say I'm happy so far. It helps that I added a Dell UltraSharp 2407FP,Wide Flat Panel monitor to the mix to run things at 1900/1200 *drool*.

Prior to the upgrade (9800 Pro/128MB - other settings can be seen in first post above), I was getting the following max scores on 3DMark '05 and '06:

05: 2730
06: 810

After the new vid card came, my benchmarks jumped to:

05: 5662
06: 2734

In addition, I ran an instance of 3DMark01, Second Edition that I'd downloaded somewhere and got a score of 19,996, iirc. I didn't run it on the 9800 Pro at all, so I don't know the comparison. I think that's more CPU intensive anyway.

I hope that gives you some idea of how the new card runs, dfonda.

All in all, I'm happy with the card. I haven't OC'd it any further than it already is (400/627), but once I have everything else stable, I'll probably try to squeeze a little bit out of it there, too.

I've eliminated any RAM issues as roadblocks to my OC'ing - I'm only able to run benchmarks stable at 240 FSB, even with vcore set to 1.5 and attempts to adjust everything else higher/lower - and even setting the divider to 5:4 to underclock my RAM, setting things to 245 and 250 FSB gets me instant failures (within 10 seconds) in Prime95 torture tests and 3DMark05 will lock up or give me the MS error report box as soon as the first CPU-focused test comes up (the floating ship over water) - running about 2-3 FPS through the first 20 or so frames, then it just locks. I'm able to get into Windows fine - I just can run any of those benchmarks very far (or at all). I also was able to run Memtest86+ at the 240fsb/3/4/4/8 settings for 8 hours without any errors. Again - the RAM seems not to be the issue at all.

So it appears that either the CPU itself, or, more likely, the mobo (probably due to voltage droop) is causing instability at as low as 245 FSB. I've noticed some mention of SATA causing problems on OC'ing - I'm wondering if that may be part of the issue too with my Raid 0 setup (and a new SATA Barracuda 320 GB on the Promise Controller alone.)

I guess I have a few more things to consider.

I'm upgrading my computer basically for Vanguard, which will be coming out (hopefully) in the next few months.

I wasn't feeling good about my 1 GB of RAM (most info coming out of Beta is saying the min of 1GB is going to be tough to play with), so I also went shopping for that too. Unfortunately, my financial situation led me to do all this upgrading through financing at Dell and through BillMeLater (BML).

Long story short - I WANTED to upgrade to 2x1GB of some PC4000 RAM (Mushkin, Corsair, or Kingston were my targets - OCZ Platinum seemed sold out everywhere I could use BML), but I ended up only being able to get the Kingston Value Ram PC3200 2x1GB dual channel kit (KVR400X64C3AK2/2G), along with a pair of Vantec Iceberg DDR-A1C Heatsinks.

Some reviews say that RAM kit is MILDLY OC'able - perhaps to the 215-220 FSB range, max.

It was delivered today and I'm considering my options for when I get home tonight - either running with JUST the 2x1GB Kingston kit, or putting it in and moving my old Geil dual-channel kit in there on the 2nd set of dimms for 3GB. I know this could lead to performance issues with running all 4 dimms, especially with different sets of RAM, but I'll benchmark all the combos all weekend to see.

I also have a Zalman CNPS7700-AlCu CPU Fan/Heatsink coming in about 2 weeks, so I'm hoping that may bring some temps down, if that's causing some issues with the CPU.

The problem is, I'll have a mobo/CPU that won't seem to go over 240 FSB, one kit of RAM that's spec'd to go up to 250 FSB (Geil PC4000), and a 2nd kit of RAM that's spec'd at 200 mhz (Kingston Value PC3200), but MAY go to 220, if I want to push it.

SO, continuing to run at 240 FSB, 1:1 won't happen with the new RAM involved in any configuration.

My MOST LIKELY setup will be OC'ing the 2.6c to where I know it runs stable: 240 FSB, running 5:4 divider (thus underclocking both sets of ram to 192 mhz or so) and then tightening the timings as far down as they'll go stable.

I know I saw some differences in opinion elsewhere on the forums about whether it makes sense to do that - basically, the CPU will be sitting there waiting for info from the slower RAM - but the counter to that being that the tighter timings may make up for it. I'll be getting lots of data on benchmarks through the weekend to compare/contrast.

Another idea that struck me was just plopping down $70-80 cash upgrading my CPU so I don't have to worry about that 240 FSB/Kingston RAM limit problem - like, perhaps to a Prescott 3.0. That would let me either run with no OC'ing at the native speed for the Kingston, or OC slightly, maybe 10% to 3.3, which would be within the minimal limits of OC'ing the Kingston.

I know the Prescott 3.0 and Northwood 3.0's both run about the same price (mid-$70's) which is at the low end of what I'm able to afford cash-wise now. The Prescott runs hot, I know, but I like the 1MB L2 cache, and the Zalman should help.

I know Maviryk and imperiousleader both mentioned the Dothan processor as something to look at IF a CT-479 adaptor can be found. I'll do some looking this afternoon, but I need to know 1) whether the Zalman will work with the Dothans (looks like it's similar to the one imperiousleader has?), and 2) if, say, a 740 Dothan would be a better match for my mishmash of two different types of RAM.

I'll spend some of the afternoon reading through some posts I found over on the CPU section talking about the Dothans, but I also would need to find an adaptor and have it fit in my budget with a new CPU, as well (hmm - looks like newegg M740 at $204 and Starmicro at $135, plus an adaptor, if I can find one, that may be out of my price range).

Whew - lots of typing - sorry - I get rather verbose. :) Thanks for putting up with it and any replies/input you may have!

Edits - stupid typos.
 
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I guess I should note that other, faster RAM was not an option. I seem to have hit my credit limit with BML, and that Kingston kit was the fastest kit that Dell had. Seeing as I had room on my credit line through Dell, I used it...I couldn't help myself. :)

When this all plays out, I don't know if I'll be able to stomach taking a full 1 GB of RAM out of my system and just let it sit in a drawer doing nothing just to avoid performance hits for mix-matched sets of RAM. I'm really hoping that the mixed RAM won't be an issue at lower FSB, and that I can get timings set as tight as possible.

I guess that's my target end-state - using both the 2x1GB kit and the 2x512 kits with whatever CPU setup will be best for either free (current CPU) or max of $80 cash (new 3.0 Prescott or Northwood):

CPU I have now (could only OC to 2.8-2.88 max at 1:1 before Kingston limits OC), or 3.12 at 5:4 (limited by what I seem to have found as a CPU/Mobo (unsure which) OC limit of 240 FSB.

or

New CPU - 3.0 Prescott at base clock speeds should run the mix of RAM fine at 1:1, so no issues of 5:4 divider performance hit, and with 1MB L2 cache, better performance, at risk of higher temps -potential for 10% OC to 3.3.

or

New CPU - 3.0 Northwood at base clock speeds but with lower L2 cache - also possible OC up to 3.3.

Whee! Benchmarking weekend coming up!

Edits - stupid typos.
 
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Well, for right now, I've got the 2.6C running at 240 FSB, with 5:4 divider and all 3GB of RAM installed.

In the benchmarks I ran so far, I actually saw a very insignificant decrease in performance moving from the 1:1 to 5:4 divider with the original 1GB of RAM - the lower divider allowed me to set timings a bit tighter to make up for the loss of FSB on the memory.

When I put the extra 2GB in with the current 1GB at 5:4, the scores again only went down a fraction of a percent. Basically, from 1GB PC4000 at 1:1, 3/4/4/8 timings...to 3GB (2x1Gb, 2x512MB), PC4000/PC3200 at 5:4, 2.5/3/3/6 timings, I lost maybe 40 points in 3DMark05, though I lost a lot more in 3DMark01SE.

240 FSB, PCMark01SE/05/06 and SuperPi (1M) scores with 1GB @ 1:1: 19,996/5700/2735/44 seconds.

With all 4 DIMMS occupied and running the 5:4 divider, so both sets are underclocked to 192'ish: 19,159/5658/2716/46 seconds.

I definitely see the slowdown in the CPU processing, but I'll live with that for now to have the extra RAM.

Still debating the issue of a new processor. I saw that Zipzoomfly actually has a CT-479 Adapter in stock, but I'm not sure I want to go that route yet.

Thanks again for your input and Happy New Year.
 
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Coach3k, I'm still at work so will post some more info later ,for now try turning off PAT in the bios and see if that affects your ram overclocking.
My dothan at 2.7ghz does about 29.5sec in superpi, the best I got was a tad
over 28sec at 2840mhz, very unstable at that speed though.
the only downside to the Dothan is you lose Hyperthreading so it is a bit slower at encoding, although probably not that great of a difference, the biggest thing you notice though is it sucks at multitasking due to only being single threaded. small price to pay for better gaming fps though.
read my sig for 3dmark scores, I should update them as I have volt modded my 7800gs and that has increased them a bit more again.
 
Coach3k, Your overclocks with the 2.6c will definitely be limited by Your cpu, not motherboard or ram. My 2.6c(I had 2 versions sl6ws and sl6wh) would also only do 240fsb stable, and to prove it wasn't motherboard or ram I got hold of a 2.8 prescott and it had no trouble reaching 3.5ghz at 250fsb, I also had a prescott
heatsink with the round copper core and that also made no difference.
Aside from water cooling I doubt you will get any more out of it.
With respect to the Zalman 7700 on a ct-479 adaptor, follow this link.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?p=904604#post904604
I bought the Zalman 7000b copper model and it works a treat, keeps the temperatures in the 40 degree c range when cranking it up and in the mid 30's when idling, it's summer here at the moment so I expect 20's in the winter.
Was a real pig to fit though, have to be very careful with the small core on the Dothans. But I have taken the computer to a few Lans since and no problems with transporting, I would suggest keeping the Computer on it's side if moving it in a car just to make sure though.
 
I am running a similar set up to you but a more powerful cpu and my rig does pretty good with most current games. I think a cpu upgrade would be your best bet. from the sound of your setup that would be your bottle neck
 
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