Points Changes Coming [Archive] - Overclockers Forums

Macaholic

02-18-07, 07:06 PM

Here it is.

http://forum.folding-community.org/ftopic18095.html

Posted: Today at 4:55 pm Post subject: On the horizon: v6, Win SMP, adjustment to points scheme
With the GPU and PS3 ports looking more and more mature, we have put more efforts into Win SMP and v6 and I am happy to say that we are begining to testing both with outside alpha testers. It's still early, but we see the light at the end of the tunnel on both now that they're in outside alpha testing.

With the release of v6, we have also planned some adjustments to the point system. It's clear that points are important to everyone. Points are important to the science, as they encourage people to do the science. However, this means that the points scheme has to be aligned such that donors who optimize their points optimize the science of what we need too.

We have a plan on how to improve the current scheme and will announce it as v6 rolls out. V6 has some new features which allow us to make changes to the points scheme that were not possible before, which hopefully will let us optimize the points for science, thus allowing us to do our scientific calculations with even greater efficiency.

I'm generally not a fan of announcements without something more concrete (eg a download for the new beta clients would be nice), but I wanted to let people know what was coming, especially considering concerns that donors have had with the current system. We've read the threads -- thanks for the feedback and suggestions. The new system likely won't make *everyone* happy, but I bet it will resolve the issues raised and it will also be better for the science. More details to follow.

_________________
Professor Vijay S. Pande, PhD
Director, Folding@Home Distributed Computing Project, and
Associate Professor of Chemistry and of Structural Biology, Stanford University

Sorin

02-18-07, 07:10 PM

Rather vague, but the Win SMP stood out at me in blinking red 72 point font. WOOT.

sno.lcn

02-18-07, 07:15 PM

Rather vague, but the Win SMP stood out at me in blinking red 72 point font. WOOT.
WIN SMP WOOT!!! If they get anywhere close to the ppd the linux smp is putting out...:drool:

ChasR

02-18-07, 07:16 PM

Fixed link.

Sorin

02-18-07, 07:22 PM

WIN SMP WOOT!!! If they get anywhere close to the ppd the linux smp is putting out...:drool:

I get the sinking feeling we'd need to use 64-bit Windows to get similar ppd. Which also means the myriad of issues that come with hit or miss 64-bit driver support in XP.

David

02-18-07, 07:22 PM

I've read some of the details and they look good. The Windows SMP client isn't quite ready yet and the from the outset the points changes look fair.

Sounds good to me.

WarriorII

02-18-07, 07:27 PM

NM.

Silver

02-18-07, 07:30 PM

How much time does one think would be involved going from Alpha to Beta?

Shelnutt2

02-18-07, 08:04 PM

Man, I hope you're some kind of right on maybe the windoze SMP client getting ppd close to the Linux SMP (what is the comparision ppd with Mac's?) It'd be nice to use a couple of the WinXP programs I have. I have 3 WinXP 32 bit retail install CD's and 1 WinXP 64 bit install CD. :confused:

I wouldn't mind helping you trying to get the windows programs to work in Linux via WINE. Make a thread in the Alternative OS section, gladly help ya.

psyshack

02-18-07, 08:59 PM

Bracing for the fire storm after the point changes.

WarriorII

02-18-07, 09:05 PM

Bracing for the fire storm after the point changes.

Ditto.

I have mixed feelings about all of this & wish to remain silent.

ChasR

02-18-07, 09:33 PM

I'd guess we're going to see SMP points go down some.

davekusa

02-18-07, 09:43 PM

I have a sinking feeling that noone will be happy. We'll have to wait and see what happenes.

I also think this will hurt Team 32 for the run to 2nd place.

harlam357

02-18-07, 10:25 PM

I have a sinking feeling that noone will be happy. We'll have to wait and see what happenes.

I also think this will hurt Team 32 for the run to 2nd place.

I agree dave... since I believe our (pete's, ChasR's, Gary's, lee's, ih's) recent rise in ppd is directly linked to our team's (their) quick adoption of the SMP client. :D But we'll just have to see... I sure would like to see my UP clients get a boost, even if that does come at the cost of SMP point reduction.

Also... SMP for Win!? Who owns a frickin' copy of WinXP x64 anyway!? :confused: ...and now you probably can't even buy a copy. Thank you M$! :mad: I saw a video on how to install Vista in 3 minutes... I recall it involving a retail package and a paper shredder... appeared to be a pretty simple install. :D

muddocktor

02-18-07, 10:43 PM

Unlike some others that wish to remain silent, I will put my 2 cents in.

I say that it's about fricking time that Stanford decided to do some points adjustments as the gpu and smp clients both have serious points inflation problems IMO and are harming the project as a whole. I saw much the same thing happen around the time that Stanford changed the benchmark machines from the original Celeron 500 to the P4 2.8's they use nowdays. Around that time there was a serious points inflation problem between the old wu's and newer wu's and many early folders that had folded hundreds or thousands of wu's for just a few thousand points got ****ed and left the project because the new points scheme made a mockery of their contributions, (by looking at their points totals). And I see the same thing happening with the way that Stanford is presently handling the points with the new clients. I know I'm pretty cheesed off about the whole deal myself.

Anyways, at least Vijay now gives us some hope that things will get better and when he decides to roll out some beta testing of v6 I'll be glad to help out then. As far as hurting our run for 2nd place, I don't see where it's going to affect us too badly. After all, our team here is probably seeing a larger percentage of the team members upgrading to dual or quad core processors (to take advantage of the smp client) and upgrading vid cards for the gpu client than OCAU, who has a lot of school/work borgs.

pscout

02-18-07, 10:58 PM

The rise and fall of PPD relative to everyone else is something that you get used to, even tho you might not happily accept it.

Sort of like getting hooked on something, then going thru withdrawal symptoms.

For me the cycle started with QMD's ... which is largely responsible for my farm being all intel,

... to a spell with ribo's which were sort of like methadone i guess ... not as good as the real thing, but not as bad as pure straight patty melts or equivalent

... to a feast (for some ) on 149X's

... followed shortly by gpu's as a distraction and a bit of a ponts boost,

.... some short lived doldrums

... followed by a mini feast on 149X's

... replaced by a real feast (for my farm) on SMP which was coincidental with the inundation of patty melts formthe non-smp rigs.

My ppd trendline has been pretty cyclical, and both tempered and attenuated by upgrades and expansion of the farm during those swings.

It seems to me, the only time ppd has been close to fair for everybody is when it 'sucks' for everybody.

I think a points reduction for smp to bring it back into line is a good thing overall even though it will bring me down out of the clouds a bit. Nothing i can't cope with tho ... well maybe it will be a convenient excuse for a :beer: or 2 :o

/edit since i wasn't folding before the last big points correction I didn't experience its angst. We willl just have to wait and see how I feel about the upcoming one ... hopefully it works out to be neutral or positive for most everybody.

leelegend

02-19-07, 03:48 AM

whatever happens......i will keep it folding :)

lee

psyshack

02-19-07, 06:49 AM

whatever happens......i will keep it folding :)

lee

Im with you lee.

Tho I have come to understand my P4 northy, XPM-2500 and lappy are way out dated and do need to take there place in 1010101010 heaven. And I think it would be wrong to keep such out dated gear in the game with artificial points. Sure I will run my older stuff a while longer. But its coming time to part them out to friends and relatives or just throw them away. They are power pigs if nothing else.

I didn't upgrade into the later P4's or get on the AMD train cause I knew in my gut it basically would have been hard earned money waisted. Not only for folding but putering in general.

So I will set back and enjoy the over inflated points my dual cores are putting out and watch my legacy stuff slip away. As it should be.

Its kinda like the price of gasoline. I will get into my 06 Civic EX and get my 40 mpg going to work this morning. And not have a care in the world about the price of fuel. And watch all the pure SUV and Pickup drives drink gas and pollute like crazy,,, bitching and whining the whole way.

psy

dz_jad

02-19-07, 08:02 AM

Well, they said point changes, with v6....Does V6 include all the client versions? Because if not, I dont see the point change including SMP or GPU....even if, I would think they would bump the points more, for how much work the GPU units are throwing around (scientific, not WUs) and SMP might get a boost also.
He did say (in brief) that the heavy hitting/important science will be more correctly rewarded....but I think this has reference to the uniprocessor client, considering that the majority of work done is done by the uniproc (just the massive amount of them) and unless Stanford is releasing an all-in-one client, I don't think we need be worried with the SMP and GPU points changing (besides individual WU values)

ChasR

02-19-07, 11:08 AM

The GPU points aren't high enough to induce many people to adopt it. From a peak of about 1500 GPUs, there are currently only 600 or so folding. Power costs, expense of 512 MB cards, R600 on the way, having to dedicate a core, and excessive heat all mean it'll take a points boost to get people to adopt it. GPU drastically accelerates the science for a modest boost in points production. This could change with the R600, but I'll bet now that ram bandwidth limitations rob it of its true folding potential.

SMP on the other hand gives a massive boost in points production for a very modest increase in actual science produced. I think the 4X increase in speed is a comparisson of one SMP 9800 atom WU run on a Quad to 4 normal 9800 atom WUs run serially. Theoretically, a 10,000 WU SMP project would require 40,000 single threaded WUs to complete. If both projects were run on the same Quad core hardware, they would finish at the same time. However the first generation would be completed 4 X faster on the SMP WUs. Asside from gererational acceleration, the real benefit of SMP will come with the Windows SMP client. Stanford will finally have a client that should install and use almost all the processor, no matter how many cores it has, without the user having to create directories, make sure to set different IDs, set the -local flag if using the GUI, etc.
THe SMP client is a 32 bit application. I beleive the 64 bit OS requirement was used as a fool proof, easy to implement method, to keep older slower low performance hardware from attempting to fold the new high performance client. It has to be pretty new to run a 64 bit OS. This is speculation on my part. If I'm right, better cpuid in v6 should enable the elimination of the 64 bit OS requirement.

SMP points are almost certain to change in my opinion. When v6 comes out expect the SMP client to be v6.0x. version 5.9x has an expiration date afterall.

dfonda

02-19-07, 11:46 AM

I'm happy the way it is. It's been cheap riding this wave. Stiil it will be nice to see what it will take to move up to the next level after things come into the light.

ChasR

02-19-07, 02:06 PM

You know, jws, I don't see a whole lot of whining in this thread. Some people want to see SMP points where they are and some know they're too high.
If you're refering to folks participating in this thread as the peanut gallery, I think you're a bit outta line.

dz_jad

02-19-07, 02:20 PM

if you were referring to my post including speculation, I wasn't aiming at the whining, I just saw something in what Pande said, so I figured I'd point it out :)

KingFish

02-19-07, 02:29 PM

I also think this will hurt Team 32 for the run to 2nd place.

Look on the bright side, it could help you on your run to 4th place!

dz_jad

02-19-07, 02:42 PM

rofl
I find this very funny....cause I'm tired, and completely spaced your "this wasnt directed at any specific" part before
on the other hand, I was rather happy that I understood and could 'predict' what might happen from what Pande said, usually I'm just confused :p

ChasR

02-19-07, 02:50 PM

Damn near impossible to offend me. Adak almost manages when he comes over from Minimum PC and tries to get my goat :D. I was a bit more worried how other's may take it since the directive was for the peanut gallery to remain silent. I have no plans to remain silent regardless. :) No harm or whining in guessing about what Stanford might do.
I didn't say I didn't see any whining, I said I didn't see a lot.

dz_jad

02-19-07, 02:59 PM

Damn near impossible to offend me.
Ditto
from Minimum PC
Yarly. :D

dz_jad

02-19-07, 03:21 PM

Was it my post?

JUST KIDDING. :D

dfonda

02-19-07, 03:41 PM

Jws I can't believe you posted without the:bang head smilie. Your gonna wear the thing out.:Dhehe

dz_jad

02-19-07, 03:43 PM

Jws I can't believe you posted without the:bang head smilie. Your gonna wear the thing out.:Dhehe
might break that wall someday!

Silver

02-19-07, 05:06 PM

Look on the bright side, it could help you on your run to 4th place!

Who let this guy in. Antagonistic, inflammatory, rude and deserving of banning by fire at the stake.:)

dfonda

02-19-07, 05:23 PM

Well Kingfish did put out the fire.... Why not cut mm a break?:D:D

harlam357

02-19-07, 08:09 PM

Look on the bright side, it could help you on your run to 4th place!

Who invited the "fish gallery"!? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v663/harlam357/smileys/biggrinbounce.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v663/harlam357/smileys/laugh2.gif

Mark620

02-19-07, 08:21 PM

The only whining I have done is when someone totally trashed the uniprocessor client as not worth perusing...

Audioaficionado

02-19-07, 09:12 PM

Well I now have two VM/SMP machines running an E6400 & E6600 at stock clocks. Even so, I'm going to pop above a stable 2k PPD for the first time. My son wants me to build him a C2D machine too. Maybe that will even out a points reduction and keep me in the red :D

When the rocket ride ends, it ends with a whimper just like the QMD run did.

Then it's on to the next ride after eating many pattymelts first LOL.

LandShark

02-19-07, 10:30 PM

Look on the bright side, it could help you on your run to 4th place!
http://landshark-racing.com/icon/laugh2.gif FISH?? what fish? you know here's the pond filled w/ sharks, don't you?! :cool:

pscout

02-19-07, 10:52 PM

http://landshark-racing.com/icon/laugh2.gif FISH?? what fish? you know here's the pond filled w/ sharks, don't you?! :cool:

Here, here :D

We have all been well primed for being a bit over sensitive to whining, what with the big whine thread over a FAC and of course triggered by the imbalances ... so me just puts my blinkers and headphones on and goes back to folding (and building) ... and hopes for a swift set of adjustments by stanford.

We really do have a pretty civil thread here compared to others :)

Now, what say we startup one on religion or .....

but lets do it in another forum :D

WarriorII

02-19-07, 10:58 PM

That's Blue Room material Pete. :D

DorianBrytestar

02-20-07, 08:42 AM

Welp, time to go install some clients then.

Now where did I put that server room again?...

Ahh yes.

Dorian places his access card to the panel and hears the beep and satisfying "click" of the magnetic lock releasing. The whirr of the racks is a welcome comforting sound that seems to drown out all the problems and troubles of the day. Gazing accross the racks and racks of machines, he picks out a few candidates.

Yes, you and you and you.. I think that you all will do nicely.

dz_jad

02-20-07, 09:13 AM

myuhahahahahahahaha!

I want a large server room :)

||Console||

02-20-07, 11:14 AM

Well the points chaneg wont hurt my production as i have 0 gpu and 0 smp's folding right now . So it will bump me back up a bit on the top20

Joe Camel

02-20-07, 01:40 PM

dz_jad

02-20-07, 02:06 PM

.

as long as they make it more a case of "more science = more points" i dont care if it drops me out of the OCF top 10 PPD list, @ least i know im optimized for science not just guessing based on some (outdated) system resources to points ratio.

.
well said Joe, thats exactly what I'm thinking, I don't care if I don't make max points, but it should be a good way of saying, "if you're maxed out on PPD, you're maxed out on Science Value"

WarriorII

02-20-07, 02:13 PM

Maxed out on PPD?! never.

currently maxed out ppd = server room additions = more pcs! = more science = more points = A CURE !

dz_jad

02-20-07, 02:15 PM

well, yeah, Thats what I was thinking too, never can max out PPD...you can always add more...
I thought that might need clarification :p PPD maxed out on what you've got crunching :santa:

KingFish

02-20-07, 03:10 PM

http://landshark-racing.com/icon/laugh2.gif FISH?? what fish? you know here's the pond filled w/ sharks, don't you?! :cool:

Whoa! :eek: I'll have to keep that in mind. But can the sharks hear the footsteps creeping up behind them? :p

DorianBrytestar

02-20-07, 04:03 PM

It sounds like those footsteps are getting quieter and quieter....

:confused:

WarriorII

02-20-07, 05:09 PM

Foot steps from a Tuna ?

:D

KingFish

02-21-07, 12:46 PM

The footsteps are from the monkeys on our team.....although I have been known to make a big splash :cool:

WarriorII

02-21-07, 01:48 PM

The footsteps are from the monkeys on our team.....although I have been known to make a big splash :cool:

I refuse to coment about "The Big Splash"..... :eek: :-/

:D

Macaholic

02-21-07, 02:01 PM

I refuse to coment about "The Big Splash"..... :eek: :-/

:D

Allow me. <clears throat> We'll be sure to give you a "courtesy flush" upon arrival. :p

||Console||

02-21-07, 02:20 PM

LOL

WarriorII

02-21-07, 11:07 PM

Allow me. <clears throat> We'll be sure to give you a "courtesy flush" upon arrival. :p

:D

:attn:

KingFish

02-22-07, 10:49 AM

Just like your monkeys got flushed last year? :D

nikhsub1

02-22-07, 10:56 AM

Look at the point/WU ratio of Wedo and myself compared the the top producers on this team.

WarriorII

02-22-07, 11:35 AM

Look at the point/WU ratio of Wedo and myself compared the the top producers on this team.

I just gotta polk a little fun @ ChasR. :D

27,9xx K for the LAST 24 HOURS !!!!!

`Whaz up wit dat sheep??

Increased the ppd 8k this week huh?

I'd be happy with a machine that runs.

:bday:

Congratz & Fold On!!

ChasR

02-22-07, 12:46 PM

ChasR is going to lose a couple of work horse SMP machines in the next two weeks that'll slow down production some. Only one replacement in the works, ATM.

At last count ChasR had 11 SMP rigs and two SMP+GPU rigs making over 60 % of the points. THe other 125 or so rigs don't do squat in comparison as Nik
points out. But for a mere $250 a socket A (I've got a ton of these) can be upgraded to an ASRock 775Dual-VSTA and E6300 and go from 120ppd on normal WUs to 1000ppd on the SMP client. The Houston farm, provided and run by my partner HayesK, recently upgraded 21 Socket As to 10 C2Ds running SMP and that is where most of the SMP points come from.

Sleepy_Steve

02-22-07, 01:50 PM

Yeah, running my C2D in SMP i can get well over 2.5k PPD with my 2 rigs, 2 borgs, and a notebook that folds about half the time. When the C2D goes back into windows... I'm looking at somewhere in the 650-800 PPD area with the same hardware.

Needless to say, I'm eager to see what the windows SMP client can do. ESP if it runs on 32bit XP installs. If i can get anything even remotely close to the 2300 PPD i was getting with Linux based SMP I'll be happy. I don't think i want to play with GPU again, as with a 256MB 1950... Screen lag was un-bearable.

I wont talk about the points issue, because I'm not one to adjust the hardware i own to max out points. I just run the clients i can that get me the best points while staying out of the way for my normal computing needs.

orionlion82

02-24-07, 11:39 PM

Ditto.

I have mixed feelings about all of this & wish to remain silent.

ill take a stab at it, even though my feelings are the same.

point value is going to be tied to science value.

there will be no more bell curve. (just guessing it was that way)

more like a linear graph of output-to-point-value.
we will end up with a diagonal line of production (if not an even more exxagerated spike at the highend)

in other words, the point of deminishing returns has just been moved WAY up the charts for all to see, and what happens when you are the guy on the wrong side of it? do you "optimize out" ...do you "dump" ?

what about the low point science that will be percieved as marginalized?
(its just more encouragement to walk away from it. )

this has been a moment of devils advocatry by orionlion82.
it may well turn out allright after all.