Why ATI Delayed The R600

[Evilsizer]

http://www.techarp.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=392

sounds really cool almost gives me a reason to switch to amd...:eek: :beer:

[blitzkrieg1110]

http://www.ocforums.com/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=85

sounds really cool almost gives me a reason to switch to amd...:eek: :beer:
That link you posted just creates a new thread....:confused:

[Evilsizer]

dunno i copied the link last time......fixed though!

[MadMan007]

:rolleyes: Same thing as in this other thread http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=506397

[Evilsizer]

then it should be in the ati section, no?

[MadMan007]

Yeah and it shouldn't be taken seriously. Sorry not in a joking mood lately :p

[The_Jizzler]

sick cruel april fools day joke. what jackass makes AFD jokes the day before AFD. *sigh*

[LeAd_Poisoning]

it sounds very intriguing. if it is all true - AMD/ATI would fundamentally corner the GPU and CPU market for years to come. The AMD/ATI merger has made this possible.

[PWatterson]

I think this is pretty nice. My only concern is the power requirements. If they stay relatively low, then I am game.

[Rattle]

I think this sounds incredible I cant wait to see solid reviews from vr zone and XS on these. Then I will make my move/judgment...

[Neuromancer]

Happy AFD :)

[Xione]

Date : 01 April 2007

:bday:

[BossBorot]

wow they really didn't try very hard; excellon LOL

even worse

In your opinion, which one of these leaders gives you wet dreams at night?

a) NVIDIA President & CEO Huang Jen-Hsun -> 0
b) AMD Chairman & CEO Hector de J. Ruiz -> 1
c) ATI President & CEO Dave Orton -> 2
d) Intel Chairman Craig R. Barrett -> 3
e) Intel President & CEO Paul S. Otellini -> 4

http://www.techarp.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=392&pgno=1

[Evilsizer]

umm wth

[BossBorot]

also they have an almost duplicate article about bugs in the g80 that leads you to this;

One Last Question...

Congratulations! If you made it this far, we are pretty sure you are NOT an NVIDIA lawyer, or from ATI. Have a beer on us.

We have just one more question for you... Do you know what day it is today?

Yes, my friend, it's April 1st. Adrian's uncle was born on this day, but it's really more commonly known as April Fool's Day.

Unfortunately, there is no secret page where you can buy cheap NVIDIA cards. How we wish it were true though. Graphics cards are so very expensive.

The good news is that there is no such bug in the vertex shader of the G80. So, if you are an owner of GeForce 8800 GTX/GTS cards, you can relax on that count. Your oh-so-expensive graphics cards are not crippled in any way.

But if you are one of those who were, just moments ago, feeling vindicated that it was the card that caused your gaming skills to suffer, we are sorry to bust your chops but as they say, don't blame the tool, blame the user.



Before You Leave...

We hope you enjoyed the little soiree. Remember, it is the journey that counts, not the destination.

With that said, you should be proud of your achievement. After all, you are one of the few who have taken the effort to get to this end. For that, you should not go unrewarded.

As a token of our appreciation for your participation, we would like to offer you a discount on our online BIOS Optimization Guide subscriptions. Normally, subscriptions go for £6 for 3 months and £12 for a full year. But you can now subscribe for only £5 for 3 months and £10 for a full year. Just use the coupon code 0104 when you register.

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Disclaimer

Please note that the "facts" and questions and answers in the previous pages do not necessarily reflect the personal or professional opinions of anyone at Team ARP. They were created with comic intent in mind.

http://www.techarp.com/0104.htm

[The_Jizzler]

wth, some of you are actually buying this? cmon guys....

[meionm]

If nobody noticed author name is C. Lee Yu,>>>> Silly you. April fools started bid early in USA

[PWatterson]

Ha. Its what I get for not reading. To think I took it seriously for a moment... :beer:

It sounded cool.

[ViperJohn]

http://www.techarp.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=392

sounds really cool almost gives me a reason to switch to amd...:eek: :beer:

It is highly unlikely and even if it were true it is doomed. AMD would be sticking an R600 core inside an AMD
dual core CPU that is now and will be hopelessly outclassed by Intels Core2Duo's and Core2Quads for years.

Viper

[BossBorot]

When I was reading that I was wondering how in the world you would cool and power a dual r600 die drop in chip and how fake the word excellon is.

[Rattle]

I thought it would be cool lmao, seemed sort of plausible...

[ViperJohn]

I thought it would be cool lmao, seemed sort of plausible...

Oh it is going to happen eventually at least with mainstream boxes. The high end is a whole nother ball
game. One of the reasons AMD bought ATI was to aid in and speed up the integration of the GPU into the
CPU for mainstream users. It is also no secret that AMD in not a fan of discrete GFX cards either. There
are a couple of problems though with CPU/GPU integration.

One is the CPU you integrate the GPU into had better be the best. An R600 stuffed into (more like trapped
inside) even an FX64 class CPU is going to get smoked by a 8800GTX G80 running in a system with even
a cheap low end, stock OC'ed Core2Duo. It is no secret that even the best AMD dual cores have bottle
necked the high end cards since the 7800-512's/7900GTX's unless you OC the hell out of the CPU. Even
then the same GFX card running in a much lower cost and stock OC'ed Core2Duo will easily out run em.
That only gets worse as the cards get ever faster. A modded 8800GTX is taxing a 3.9Ghz C2D to keep
up with the card as it is.

Also do not think I am an Intel fanboy. Far from it but I finally had to go with a C2D myself when my 3.3Ghx
FX60 just could not support a 8800GTX CPU speed wise. The last Intel CPU I had before the C2D was a
100Mhz 486!!!

Another issue with integrating the GPU into the CPU is staying at the high end without breaking your wallet.
You are going to pay dearly for that top of the line CPU with the top of the line GPU stuffed inside and in 6-8
months that GPU stuffed inside is going to be a long way from top end. So what are you going to do to stay
current with the best??? Well in the best case if you can you will disable the GPU inside the CPU
and buy the new top end GFX card. In the worst case you will have to again pay dearly for a whole new
CPU with the new top end GPU stuffed inside. From the upgrade, stay the best, standpoint, a CPU with the
best current GPU integrated inside would be no better than a motherboard, if one was made, with the best
current GPU on board.

I think you can also safely bet that with CPU/GPU integration if you want the top end GPU you will have to
buy the top end CPU at the same time. You will not see the top end GPU stuffed into the lesser CPU's.
That is marketing 101 plain and simple. CPU/GPU integration is not about user choice, ease, perfomance
or anything pro end user. It is about the bean counters bettering bottom line for the share holders.

Viper

[Krome]

Best avatar ever Viper! ^^

[metloaf]

Best avatar ever Viper! ^^

Yeah it's almost a viper....LOL But it looks good regardless.

This will be interesting when it does finnaly hit the market. Soon I hope. I have been waiting for a while and really didn't want to spend the money on an 8800 just as a stop gap measure, until the R600 is out. :beer:

[ViperJohn]

Yeah it's almost a viper....LOL But it looks good regardless.

This will be interesting when it does finnaly hit the market. Soon I hope. I have been waiting for a while and really didn't want to spend the money on an 8800 just as a stop gap measure, until the R600 is out. :beer:

Heck ya waited this long ya might as well get an 8900. They will be out with out slightly after the R600.

I am a bit worried about AMD at this point. They are 3 billion in debt, their cash reserves are very low and
they need another billion is cash to make it through 2007.

Viper

[Evilsizer]

Heck ya waited this long ya might as well get an 8900. They will be out with out slightly after the R600.

I am a bit worried about AMD at this point. They are 3 billion in debt, their cash reserves are very low and
they need another billion is cash to make it through 2007.

Viper
8xxx line refresh will hit in around june, thats when NV did it last year for the the 7xxx line refresh. that is what im savin up for a 8900gts.

[ViperJohn]

8xxx line refresh will hit in around june, thats when NV did it last year for the the 7xxx line refresh. that is what im savin up for a 8900gts.

The R600 due in late May IS the refresh. The original R600 was supposes to be out 6 months ago remember.

Viper

[Burdman27911]

Have any clue as to how "late May" it'll be for the R600 to come out? I'm to the point where I think I'll be building my new system on May 18th or so... I'm just so sick of waiting for new parts and prices to fall. I think I'm going to have to go with the 8800gts if I do indeed build then, but I hope the r600 release will at least encourage some price drops for the 8800 line.

[ViperJohn]

Have any clue as to how "late May" it'll be for the R600 to come out? I'm to the point where I think I'll be building my new system on May 18th or so... I'm just so sick of waiting for new parts and prices to fall. I think I'm going to have to go with the 8800gts if I do indeed build then, but I hope the r600 release will at least encourage some price drops for the 8800 line.

Well if everything goes right (and that seems to be a BIG if with Dammit's history on the R600) they should
be (hopefully??? lol) buyable around the 4th week at around the $500 mark.

nVidia is delaying the the 8900GTX (or the 8950GX2) release to coincide with the R600 release to rain on
ATI's parade.

Viper

[One Bull]

Well if everything goes right (and that seems to be a BIG if with Dammit's history on the R600) they should
be (hopefully??? lol) buyable around the 4th week at around the $500 mark.

nVidia is delaying the the 8900GTX (or the 8950GX2) release to coincide with the R600 release to rain on
ATI's parade.

Viper

It seems like both intel and nVidia is trying really hard to push amd/ati out of the game. Intel with the price drops and Nvidia with their G81 release. I sure hope it doesn't work...

[ViperJohn]

It seems like both intel and nVidia is trying really hard to push amd/ati out of the game. Intel with the price drops and Nvidia with their G81 release. I sure hope it doesn't work...

Yeah unfortunately Dammit is in dire straights. They have over 3 billion in debt, have been and are burning
cash at a phenomenal rate to the point they need to raise 1 billion cash to get through 2007.

After thumping Intel with the A64 CPU's for years they sat on their laurels in the R&D dept and find them
selves again hopelessly outclassed by Intel. They have a large inventory of non competitive CPU's to get
rid of at a loss to make room for the new 65nm parts. Intels upcoming price cuts are only going to make
the situation worse and it is very doubtful AMD's new 65nm CPU's will be competitive with Intels die shrunk
parts either. The R600 has cost them a bloody fortune they will never come close to getting back this late
(6 months) in the game.

It's definately not looking good for AMD on Wall Street as their stock has been on a downhill slide for a
year with the share price dropping about 70%. While AMD has been in trouble more than once in the past
and recovered they didn't have the debt load back then that they are carrying now either.

Viper

[vixro]

Am I the only one that doesn't really care? Am I the only one that will buy the next generation AMD products without a second thought and will buy the r600 when it hits the market? If so, I'm not sad one bit because I have YET to be disappointed by either. :) That kind of confidence has to count for something on AMD's part because it wasn't created out of nothing.

[One Bull]

Am I the only one that doesn't really care? Am I the only one that will buy the next generation AMD products without a second thought and will buy the r600 when it hits the market? If so, I'm not sad one bit because I have YET to be disappointed by either. :) That kind of confidence has to count for something on AMD's part because it wasn't created out of nothing.

Well, that's not really the point. Sure the R600 will come on the market, yes it'll propably crush the 8800's. Sure people will buy next generation amd's when they hit the market. The products are good and you won't get diapointed by them. But what's after that? AMD/Ati is propably going to disappear as it stands now. And that's the real problem..

[ViperJohn]

yes it'll propably crush the 8800's.

The R600 will be certainly be faster (damn well better be!!!) than an 8800 but it won't crush them and on AMD
rig, even a well OC'ed one, you will see little if any difference. You will need a well OC'ed Conroe to see the
difference.

The 8800GTX is not the competition for the R600...at least not the R600 "refresh"incarnation that will finally
see the light of day now six months late, respun to death, and die shrunk. The die shrunk, higher piped G81,
8900 is it's competition and NV isn't quaking in their boots over that contest.

Viper

[ViperJohn]

Am I the only one that doesn't really care? Am I the only one that will buy the next generation AMD products without a second thought and will buy the r600 when it hits the market? If so, I'm not sad one bit because I have YET to be disappointed by either. :) That kind of confidence has to count for something on AMD's part because it wasn't created out of nothing.

Poorly worded opener but yes I care about Dammit. Between the 100Mhz 486 I had 8 years ago to the C2D
i've had for 3 months now there was nothing but AMD CPU's in my rigs. The only reason I went to a C2D was
AMD has nothing with the horsepower to allow these new high end GPU to perform to their max. You need
Conroe horsepower for that and that will include the R600's when they finally pop. It is pretty pointless to stuff
an R600 into an any AMD rig.

Without AMD in the picture we would probably still be paying $500 for a 1Ghz P4 and CPU's like the Conroe
would be just a dream for the distant future...and probably an unaffordable dream too.

Viper

[Nandro]

After thumping Intel with the A64 CPU's for years they sat on their laurels in the R&D dept and find them
selves again hopelessly outclassed by Intel.

Amd didn't necessarily sit back, they just don't have the funds to drive 3 concurrent dev teams like Intel does. Intel has a massive advantage there as does NV.

As fat as buying Intel over AMD or NV over ATI, They are both monsters in their respective markets and ATI is now trying to get this merger working right to furthur inroads into the OEM and mobile chipset markets. If it works out long term they will have more funding for the high end product development. In the short term they will be spanked in the high end segment. I think as soon as Barcelona or R600 are out that NV and Intel will have virtually instant product answers. This may happen well into the next gen before they can catch back up I believe.

[ViperJohn]

Amd didn't necessarily sit back, they just don't have the funds to drive 3 concurrent dev teams like Intel does. Intel has a massive advantage there as does NV.

The R&D time to develope a successor to the current A64 crop was long before ATI was acquired.
They just got lazy riding the A64 's success.

Viper

[Evilsizer]

The R&D time to develope a successor to the current A64 crop was long before ATI was acquired.
They just got lazy riding the A64 's success.

Viper
intel will prolly do the same thing with "core".

[ViperJohn]

intel will prolly do the same thing with "core".

I seriously doubt it. They got burnt by the A64's riding (milking?) the P3 and early P4 success and Intel isn't
likely to make the same mistake twice...at least not in such short a time.

They know AMD's Barcelona is coming too. While the Barcelona's capability is probably being greatly over
blown and stretched to the breaking point by AMD's PR dept, Intel is no doubt keeping a close eye with the
intent of keeping the speed crown they now wear.Intel is very active in R&D with 45nm CPU development.

Pesonally I want to see AMD get back in the CPU (heck and GPU to) race. We need them to be competitve
to promote R&D on both sides and to keep prices in check through competition. The last thing we need is for
Intel to become another MicroSoft and be the only game in town!!!

Viper

[Nandro]

Well said... here's to wishful thinking. Let's hope they can pull a rabbit out of the hat. maybe we're underestimating them although I doubt it.

[deathman20]

The 8800GTX is not the competition for the R600...at least not the R600 "refresh"incarnation that will finally see the light of day now six months late, respun to death, and die shrunk. The die shrunk, higher piped G81, 8900 is it's competition and NV isn't quaking in their boots over that contest.

Viper

I'm sure you already know this Viper from the other thread but clarification to anyone who reads this the R600 didn't have a Die Shrink. Its still the 80nm process.

R650 which the 2900XTX 1gig version is suppositly the 65nm process thats coming out soon.

[ViperJohn]

I'm sure you already know this Viper from the other thread but clarification to anyone who reads this the R600 didn't have a Die Shrink. Its still the 80nm process.

R650 which the 2900XTX 1gig version is suppositly the 65nm process thats coming out soon.

Yes it did actually. ATI could not get clock speed yield worth a damn at 80nm that could match an
8800GTX even after 3 respins. ATI didn't give the 65nm die shrunk core a new R number initially. It
was only after ATI decided to use the relatively small number of 80nm R600 cores that did speed bin
on the less than top model R600 cards the R650 designation was born. The first R6X0 cards coming
are not the ones you want.

Viper

[deathman20]

Yes it did actually. ATI could not get clock speed yield worth a damn that could match an 8800GTX even
after 3 respins. ATI didn't give the 65nm die shrunk core a new R number initially. It was only after ATI
decided to use the relatively small number of 80nm R600 cores that did speed bin on the less than top
model R600 cards the R650 designation was born. The first R6X0 cards coming are not the ones you
want.

Viper

Well the R630 cores might be worth it, they are 65nm. Wait which ones the 2600's?

Ya the R650 is really wants wanted with the improved speed, just don't get hopes up for improved power consumption for the big guy, maybe the 2900XT on 65nm, but the 2900XTX will be probably a power hungry bugger.

[ViperJohn]

Well the R630 cores might be worth it, they are 65nm. Wait which ones the 2600's?

Ya the R650 is really wants wanted with the improved speed, just don't get hopes up for improved power consumption for the big guy, maybe the 2900XT on 65nm, but the 2900XTX will be probably a power hungry bugger.

Hmmm That should have read"could not get clock speed yield worth a damn at 80nm" lol.

It's going to get very confusing on the cards initially I think and then you will get the in between R numbers
for the more value oriented cards a little later to muddy the waters even further. Had ATI just released on
time months ago it would have been much simpler and we would just be looking at a normal refresh card
about now lol.

The drop to 65nm from 80nm will lower the power consumption roughly 30% or so at the same clock speeds.
Of course one of the reasons you shrink the die is so you can clock higher which takes some of that power
saving right back again.

Viper

[deathman20]

Indeed, damn them for making me wait til mid summer for my new GPU*shakes fist*

[Nandro]

ViperJohn: is NV going to do a die shrink for their refresh or are they just going to stick with this and shrink for the next series? Or will they pull a partial shrink deal?

[Douken]

Can you switch to the main thread? since you are all offtopic

http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=483679

[ViperJohn]

ViperJohn: is NV going to do a die shrink for their refresh or are they just going to stick with this and shrink for the next series? Or will they pull a partial shrink deal?

The 8900 is 80nm, versus 90nm for the 8800 and 160 shaders versus 128 shaders for the 8800. All GTX cards
of course. There is going to be lots of game playing with model numbers/descriptions and the G core numbers
just like on the ATI side of the street though as they dance around each other trying to get an edge...be it real or
just PR fluff.

Viper

[TDubbs05]

why put a out a dx10 card when there's nothing worthwhile that can use it? smart move on ATI's part.

[ViperJohn]

why put a out a dx10 card when there's nothing worthwhile that can use it? smart move on ATI's part.

It's called get ahead of the game lol. DX10 capable games are not very far off and ATI needs to get DX10 cards
in the field running in Vista on many platorms so they can dial in the Vista drivers (and game specific debug).
You can't do all of that in driver R&D on a few system at corporate. You can get close but you need 10's of
1000's of running setups to really tune drivers up.

Viper

[greenmaji]

Can you switch to the main thread? since you are all offtopic

http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=483679

The artical was an April fools day joke, its just moved on to the real* situation ;)

*inside industry and percived

[Douken]

The artical was an April fools day joke, its just moved on to the real* situation ;)

U said it urself, then you just have to "move on to the real* thread ;)"

http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=483679