View Full Version : Upgrade plans (E4400?)
Long time no see guys. Lately i've noticed my system starting to crawl and its amazing to think i've had this same rig for so long when i used to change parts monthly.
This beast has lasted me over 2 years with only a video card upgrade a year and a half or so ago. When i built this system the first dual core was still a few months away.
Times have changed significantly. When i used to browse O/C all the time I never gamed, now i never browse O/C and constantly game. My timesink of choice is WoW and at times its pretty demanding on my system. I also record my gaming with fraps sometimes for new boss kills for the guild and others interested to watch, this really crawls my FPS down into the 10-20fps range, while still playable somewhat its not pretty.
All that said.. help me update this thing!
Took a quick look around here and also on anandtech and noticed the E4300 was very popular for overclocking with most getting around 3000-3300 without much worry. I then saw there was a new E4400 coming out later this month at a higher multiplier (10x). Several of the threads i've seen are showing lots of motherboards limiting overclock so this 10x multiplier seems to be a good way to get a better OC with existing boards.
My system is in my sig, cpu, cooler, mobo, ram, video card obviously have to go. Power supply is only 420W but its a solid performer that cost a pretty penny when I bought it when it was released, hopefully it can still be used.
Another issue is Vista. Vista release came and went and I really didn't look at it at all. Is Vista something I should get and also is it stable with good support for most programs/hardware? I'm fine with my XP, but new toys are always fun.
I prefer Abit boards from my past dealings and will not use Asus no matter what, but i'm game for most any other manufacturer. I see 975 the latest greatest chipset and people are saying 965 is limited in the FSB department so i'll steer clear of those.
I'll leave the floor to you guys.
Good to see ya here again. I have a couple systems pretty much completed save for the processors but am waiting for the price drop. Am seriously considering the E4400 myself for the same reasons.
fordsierra4x4
04-06-07, 05:59 AM
1) Avoid Vista like the plague
2) If that PSU can handle a P4 and a 7800GT, it'll handle a C2D and a newer graphics card
i had a feeling about vista with it being so new. guess i'll stick to the tried and true XP.
you guys have any suggestions for particular parts? not looking to spend alot and most likely will perform a mild OC (3.0-3.2) that i can run for months without having to check on it. took at look at some of the abit motherboards and saw the 975s were anywhere from 110-180ish on newegg. i see most of the 8800's are over 300 which i'd rather not spend atm. if thats really what i 'should' get i think i'll hang onto my 7800GT for a while longer.
memory is quite a bit cheaper than i expected. 2x1gb packs for 150-200. i think i paid like 320 for this pair of gigs way back when and this stuff was fairly low end ram at the time.
this computer is never off so this PSU has been going strong for at least 2 1/2 years and i've never had a problem. good to know i can keep using it with the new stuff.
i guess with the socket still being LGA775 i can keep my current cooler and fan, i just hope there's more room on the new board than this fatal1ty board cause i nearly had to rip the board in half to get it on last time i changed chips from 3.0 to 3.2. course i am using a 120mm fan for the cpu... lol. its a quiet rig atm and i'd like to keep it that way.
Big Mike
04-06-07, 06:47 AM
You'll definately want to wait on the video card until ATI's DX10 solution drops and Nvidia has to start reconsidering "whatever the elite are willing to pay" as a price tag. The 8600 (i think it was the GTS specifically) series that is comming soon also look impressive, the results most places are seeing is with a doable overclock they reach or exceed X1900XTX speeds and are slated to sell for 200 bucks.
I like Vista personally. There's plenty of stuff in the UI that just makes it nicer to use than XP IMHO...though I'm in the vast majority in believing that apparently.
4400 should be okay, they seem like they might end up being noticeably better clockers than the 4300's. You're lucky to have returned right when DDR2 prices are on a downfall. Just a couple of months earlier they were pretty much double what they are now in many cases. Prices are close too, pretty much the range you gave.
You got it kind of reversed. 965 yields higher FSB, but is a little slower clock for clock than 975. It's really a tough decision between the two because they're just so close. If you're an Abit aficionado though both the AW9D (i975X) and AB9-QuadGT (i965) are great choices. If you end up going with a 10x multi or even 9x multi chip, the 975 will be a bit snappier in most cases.
Just a point to ponder though, by years end we'll have 45nm, new chipsets and very possibly DDR3. Still months away though.
ZanexGt
04-06-07, 01:48 PM
4400 should be okay, they seem like they might end up being noticeably better clockers than the 4300's.
That all depends on the heat output. An e4400 may be wonderful if one can keep the temps down while increasing the FSB. Being a 10X multiplier, the e4400 may/may not be a great overclocker. But, the argument can be made that if the 10x multi is just too much, one could dial it down to 9.
But, if your going to use a 9x multiplier, why not save some $$ just get an e4300?
I do hope that the e4400 and subsequently the e4500 are great overclockers! I might have to trade up if that's the case ;)
Evilsizer
04-06-07, 02:00 PM
well for what you want max i would go this route, since you said with a low budget in mind.
E4300
Abit AB9-Pro/Asus P5B-DLX non-wifi/DFI INFINITY 975X
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813127004
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131045
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813136168
2gig DDR2-800
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231098
for video i would wait a bit NV is coming out with 8500gt/8600gt/8600gts, then in june the 8900 refresh of the 88's is out. the psu you have will more then enough right now.
4400 should be okay, they seem like they might end up being noticeably better clockers than the 4300's. You're lucky to have returned right when DDR2 prices are on a downfall. Just a couple of months earlier they were pretty much double what they are now in many cases. Prices are close too, pretty much the range you gave.
the comments on the problems of FSB make me cautious of a lower multiplier if i can get a possibly more guaranteed OC from a barely more expensive chip just due to less chipset problems.
You got it kind of reversed. 965 yields higher FSB, but is a little slower clock for clock than 975. It's really a tough decision between the two because they're just so close. If you're an Abit aficionado though both the AW9D (i975X) and AB9-QuadGT (i965) are great choices. If you end up going with a 10x multi or even 9x multi chip, the 975 will be a bit snappier in most cases.
good catch, i guess i got them mixed up when reading through so many comments. so a 975 is faster clock for clock, but 965 gives you a higher OC, does the higher OC on the chip outperform the more efficient mainboard bus?
Just a point to ponder though, by years end we'll have 45nm, new chipsets and very possibly DDR3. Still months away though.
looking to get these upgrades in about a month, video card can wait a bit longer if the 85/600s come out in 2-3.
evilsizer looks like a really good deal on that ram. i might have to snag that up pretty soon. i'll look into motherboards tonight to see whats up. ty for your help.
Evilsizer
04-06-07, 08:37 PM
good catch, i guess i got them mixed up when reading through so many comments. so a 975 is faster clock for clock, but 965 gives you a higher OC, does the higher OC on the chip outperform the more efficient mainboard bus?
well lets say that if you went with the E4300 and maxed the chip out at say 3.2ghz then compared both a 965 to 975 the 975 would be slightly faster as the timings to the chipset are tighter on the 975. that is why in some cases the 975x does not reach the high fsb of 965. the chipset timings for 965 are not much looser but it does show, irc i think it was about 5-10% difference.
looking to get these upgrades in about a month, video card can wait a bit longer if the 85/600s come out in 2-3.
evilsizer looks like a really good deal on that ram. i might have to snag that up pretty soon. i'll look into motherboards tonight to see whats up. ty for your help.
as far as the video is imo the best deal is going to be the 8600gts with gddr3 mem vs gdd2 on the gt. with some volt mods from reviews on the net you can get the core of these up to 1ghz.
yea no problem with the E4300 for 3ghz your looking at a 333fsb then if you use say the abit ab9-pro with 4:5 ratio(ddr2-667 as labeled) this will put the ram slighty above stock speed.
*edit*
o btw if you get a 965 and install xp be aware you need to install the intel SB/jmicron drivers or else you will get a BSOD during the start of the install.
Tyranos
04-06-07, 08:44 PM
With the prices dropping soon I'd consider a 6600 or 6700 paired with a 975 motherboard. You'd be able to get 3.6ghz pretty easily and have the extra cache as well.
good catch, i guess i got them mixed up when reading through so many comments. so a 975 is faster clock for clock, but 965 gives you a higher OC, does the higher OC on the chip outperform the more efficient mainboard bus?
You kind of opened a can of worms by asking that question...lol. I would say sometimes yes in favor of the 965, but in order to make it shine you need very good ram. With cheaper ram, you'd be bound to a lower FSB, and the 975 would win. In most cases, believe it or not, 975 is the faster choice. Neither a 9x nor a 10x are especially low multipliers though and neither chipset would give you trouble with either. I just get a feeling after looking at the leaks that the 4400's might be binned a bit better.
And I also put in a vote for a 4MB cache part if at all possible.
With the prices dropping soon I'd consider a 6600 or 6700 paired with a 975 motherboard. You'd be able to get 3.6ghz pretty easily and have the extra cache as well.
i'll have to check the prices. 3.6ghz sounds pretty nice. is that an average with quiet air?
You kind of opened a can of worms by asking that question...lol. I would say sometimes yes in favor of the 965, but in order to make it shine you need very good ram. With cheaper ram, you'd be bound to a lower FSB, and the 975 would win. In most cases, believe it or not, 975 is the faster choice. Neither a 9x nor a 10x are especially low multipliers though and neither chipset would give you trouble with either. I just get a feeling after looking at the leaks that the 4400's might be binned a bit better.
And I also put in a vote for a 4MB cache part if at all possible.
sounds like 975 it is then if neither board will most likely be limited.
aww the days of the 25x multiplier on the 2.5a p4's :eek:
i'll do some more looking at the 6 series tonight.
Evilsizer
04-06-07, 11:00 PM
i'll do some more looking at the 6 series tonight.
just remember the E63/64 are allendales(2mb) and the higher ones are conroe(4mb).
3.6 might not be so easy with the latest steppings (they are poorer clockers than earlier ones) 3.3 is a safe bet with anything besides a 4300, and I'd say 3.1 is a safe bet with a 4300.
Evilsizer
04-06-07, 11:04 PM
Gautam is right all the cherry picked cores are going into quad cores atm.
acc'd to info i posted in the nVidia forums the 8600GTS is very lackluster.
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=507312
looks like i'll be saving for a 8800GTS 320.
been looking at the 965 and 975 abit offerings, but haven't really seen anything to entice me one way or the other. still looking at that.
still to do: gotta look at ram reviews and catch up on which rams are the best now and why.
also E4400, this would be a 2,0ghz product correct? so this would be a DDR2-800 stock speed correct?
Maxvla, how ya doin' bro? Long time.
Personally, I've had good luck with my Abit AW9D. They run out of FSB about 420-430 FSB, but anything up to 400 FSB is fine. But, they only has 1 PCI slot if that is a concern.
The E4400 is 10X200=2 gig, but that does not equal DDR2-800 speed at the 1:1 ratio. Technically, you could do 333 FSB and run DDR2-667 RAM perfectly in spec using the 1:1 ratio. These new systems don't mind running a higher memory ratio though (like the 4:5 or 3:4), so definitely get DDR2-800 RAM for more head room. A little more memory bandwidth never hurt.
Personally, I'm not sure the E4400 will have any advantage unless it really is binned with higher yielding core, but that is a complete unknown at this time. You will not run into FSB limitations with the 9X E4300 unless you get some terrible el cheapo mobo.
If you are on a tight budget, then get the E4300. But if you can afford a bit more, the extra cache of the Conroes have some advantages, especially in gaming and they seem to clock a little higher on average. Too bad you nixed Asus, because the P5B-Deluxe paired up with an E6420 would be a hot combo. You could probably still get 3.4 gig out of the E6420 with the AW9D or maybe even the AB9/AB9 Quad.
The only real gamer advantage to Vista is DX10. I think Vista will be ok once SP-1 comes out later this year.
hey batboy, so what is the ram supposed to be running with these chips if its not 1:1? i see on newegg the 4300 says 800FSB (effective) and the 6300 says 1066FSB (effective) and you just said 266fsb is stock for ram so i'm a bit confused. i know you can run all different dividers I just need to know what default is so i know where to aim with ram.
only reason i'm getting a 4400 is that its new and nobody has one and its cheap enough that i don't mind paying a little extra to have and test something others will be interested in seeing the results.
1 pci is enough for me all i use is my old soundcard. on the topic of motherboards. i see the AW9D @ 179, then another AW9D which is the MAX version @ 209, any discernable differences or is the $179 part fine? mostly all i see is a few extra cables and round cables vs flat cables for IDE/Floppy. the southbridge isn't connected to the heatpipe on the non-max, but does a southbridge really put out that much heat on current boards?
Ok, I made one little goof. I forgot the E4300/E4400 are 200 FSB default not 266 FSB like the others. The 800 and 1066 are system bus speeds, remember the quad pumped bus? Ignore that when figuring RAM speed. For example, the E4300 is 200 FSB default or 800 system bus, meaning that using the 1:1 ratio at default speed, RAM is DDR2-400. With my E6600 the default is 266 FSB or 1066 system bus which means RAM at 1:1 is DDR2-533. When I run my E6600 at 400 FSB (1600 system bus), then RAM at 1:1 is DDR2-800.
Hey, the E4400 might be the next jewel is the rough, it would make sense it would O/C a tad better than the E4300, maybe.
The AW9D-Max has 7 SATA channels I think compared to maybe 4 SATA connectors on the plain version? Originally I thought the Max version was supposed to be the only one with solid state caps, but maybe the plain jane AW9D has that now too? You are not missing anything with the Southbridge unconnected to the OTES heatpipe. It's the N/B and mosfets that get hot, some as before.
Not sure what soundcard you have, but the AW9D has pretty good on-board 7.1 audio. I use it and it's fine for me. It has a little daughter card that plugs in a special slot on the mobo.
Maybe a visual CPU-Z screenshot will help.
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/batboybain/Conroe/E6400+3600+CPU-Z.JPG
Oh yeah, and to brag a little, here is my suicide shot that got me into the 4 gig club.
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/batboybain/Conroe/E6600-4000-CPUZ.jpg
Ignore the vcore, CPU-Z don't report correct voltage.
Ok, I made one little goof. I forgot the E4300/E4400 are 200 FSB default not 266 FSB like the others. The 800 and 1066 are system bus speeds, remember the quad pumped bus? Ignore that when figuring RAM speed. For example, the E4300 is 200 FSB default or 800 system bus, meaning that using the 1:1 ratio at default speed, RAM is DDR2-400. With my E6600 the default is 266 FSB or 1066 system bus which means RAM at 1:1 is DDR2-533. When I run my E6600 at 400 FSB (1600 system bus), then RAM at 1:1 is DDR2-800.
Hey, the E4400 might be the next jewel is the rough, it would make sense it would O/C a tad better than the E4300, maybe.
The AW9D-Max has 7 SATA channels I think compared to maybe 4 SATA connectors on the plain version? Originally I thought the Max version was supposed to be the only one with solid state caps, but maybe the plain jane AW9D has that now too? You are not missing anything with the Southbridge unconnected to the OTES heatpipe. It's the N/B and mosfets that get hot, some as before.
Not sure what soundcard you have, but the AW9D has pretty good on-board 7.1 audio. I use it and it's fine for me. It has a little daughter card that plugs in a special slot on the mobo.
yeah i remember how all this works, just saw a 200 default chip bus with you saying it was 266 so i got confused. ddr2-800 is what i should be looking at to buy right? would assume with this speed ram i'd use a divider to push memory faster than fsb for better bandwidth since i doubt i'd see 400fsb on a E4400 on air :eek:
can you tell i'm rusty? :o
solid state caps, that translate into performance or is it just a bell and whistle?
i'm just using my oldschool chaintech AV710 sound card. i doubt anything thats an onboard (even daughterboard) solution would touch it in sound quality.
Yeah, I have that same Chaintech soundcard in my HTPC.
As for RAM, good DDR2-667 would be perfectly fine for the E4400. Some of the DDR2-667 stuff will do DDR2-800 speed anyway. The faster RAM will future proof your system. For example, this G. Skill RAM will work fine in Abit mobos (see link). I put this in a buddy's rig and it's running great. He paid $60 more last fall. It's not the sought after D9 chips, but it's almost as good.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231087
Yeah, solid state caps means no more bulging and leaking caps. It's a good thing. They're a little more expensive, but worth it. I looked on the Abit webpage and it looks like they have 'em on both AW9D models.
Solid State Capacitors
Armor plated abit Technology; all the major capacitors have been replaced with solid state electrolytic capacitors giving longer life, durability and stability for those crucial demanding components. Abit engineered to be the finest motherboard in its class.
that ram looks like a great buy. acc'd to anandtech review it is the D9 chips, but a slightly slower bin which is fine with me. they got their gskill to 1067 with 5 5 5 15 and 2.35v, but it also ran at 800 4 4 4 12 with only 1.9v which is very good, and for only 150 bucks for 2gb i can't pass it up.
looks like i'll go with the cheaper AW9D board then since both have those solid state caps.
still narrowing the video card choice, 250 bucks for the non tweaked/oc'd ones or just over 300 for the more premium ones. hmmm
Oh yeah, the AW9D Max version has really cool blue flashing LED lights on the mobo... which I have disabled from day one. ;)
First thing to do after you get the AW9D up and running is update the BIOS. Deanzo and I have put together an AW9D overclocking sticky over in the Abit section. I started it and Deanzo took the ball and ran. Good thing too, I'm getting lazy in my old age. Here is the link. It's really not much different than your AA8XE.
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=500342
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