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Copper vs. Aluminum?
- Thread starter BobcatDan
- Start date
- Joined
- May 11, 2004
- Location
- Montana tech Butte mt.
Well considering the best radiators are not made by koolance and the best radiators are made out of all Cu I would ask Koolance to pass the bong.
- Thread Starter
- #5
speed bump said:
I agree about the koolance radiators, but was wondering more on the point of having to epoxy the fins to the water channels. I can't remember where I heard it, but I believe their assertion is correct, that thin copper sheets can't be welded or brazed. The question being, does a well designed/built aluminum radiator out perform and an equally well designed/built copper radiator? I have no idea, but I know every true performance (auto) radiator I have ever seen is all aluminum (though this could easily be for other reasons, and is an apple to oranges comparison).
Dan
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2006
The "compititors rad" looks like a BIX.
It just looks like they cut a BIX I and a BIX II.
I would have prefered to see a thermochill cut open and a bix cut open and one of their rads cut open.
And correct me if im worng but aluminum is dam hard to weld or melt... you have to use TIG and the aloy MUST be SUPER clean otherwise the joints will burnt.
I am also wondering if there are any all copper rads (no brass) because im sure you can melt copper to copper.
I would presume that aloy radiators are used in sport cars to reduce weight because copper would weigh a lot more than aloy.
It just looks like they cut a BIX I and a BIX II.
I would have prefered to see a thermochill cut open and a bix cut open and one of their rads cut open.
And correct me if im worng but aluminum is dam hard to weld or melt... you have to use TIG and the aloy MUST be SUPER clean otherwise the joints will burnt.
I am also wondering if there are any all copper rads (no brass) because im sure you can melt copper to copper.
I would presume that aloy radiators are used in sport cars to reduce weight because copper would weigh a lot more than aloy.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2005
- Location
- Boston, MA
Koolance also failed to mention the many other methods that could be used to construct radiators. They(most companies) usually pick the worst case scenario, and use it as a means to make their product look better. It wouldn't make sense for them to post a superior product. I would have focused on the many other positive factors, like being able to use just one material to simplify things and reduce costs. The minute you start talking about how you saved the consumer money, is when you start seeing profits. Pointing the flaws out in competitors, just like Mac does with its commercials, is just childish.
- Thread Starter
- #9
Mycobacteria said:
That was my first thought, though if copper is that much better you might be able to reduce the size of the rad enough to compensate (it's not just the material but also the weight of the added water).
This is why I asked, because I don't know. Not that it really matters, I don't even know of a decent all aluminum rad. But I figured it could be an entertaining discussion.
Dan
- Thread Starter
- #11
Yeah, I bothered myself to look up the densities of copper and aluminum, and aluminum is about 1/3 of copper (didn't know it was that much), with double the thermal resistance that's not a bad trade off. I doubt the reduced water weight would make up the rest of the difference (as it's 1/9 the density of copper).
Aluminum is very difficult to weld, but I know auto aluminum radiators (the good ones anyway) are not epoxied but welded (or otherwise fused). FWIW, the melting point of aluminum is lower than copper (by 300 C), though I have no idea what this means for manufacturing copper or aluminum radiators.
Dan
Aluminum is very difficult to weld, but I know auto aluminum radiators (the good ones anyway) are not epoxied but welded (or otherwise fused). FWIW, the melting point of aluminum is lower than copper (by 300 C), though I have no idea what this means for manufacturing copper or aluminum radiators.
Dan
- Joined
- May 11, 2004
- Location
- Montana tech Butte mt.
With a machine its pretty easy to tig weld a radiator, with our schools robotic welder once its set up I could whip these out as fast as the machine can weld.
If your really curious on how water cooling radiators are made, I would suggest getting ahold of [oc-uk]marci here since he is the owner of Thermochill and he would probably happily explain how thermochills are assembled.
If your really curious on how water cooling radiators are made, I would suggest getting ahold of [oc-uk]marci here since he is the owner of Thermochill and he would probably happily explain how thermochills are assembled.
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2007
So how much of difference does this make at this scale? Koolance claims that the typical temperature difference from waterblock to waterblock is about 1 degree C.
Also what about corrosion? I'm ready to deal with changing water but not with having to replace corroded waterblocks. Here is a quote I took from Koolances' web site.
"However, all Koolance copper components are gold-plated, which avoids corrosion.
Gold also resists the oxidation process, forever retaining its luster and transfer properties. In contrast, bare copper blocks quickly oxidize in water or air, becoming blotchy and eventually degrading performance."
I've been told this is a non issue yet in these very forums I just read that someone has a corroded waterblock and is trying to figure out how to clean it.
Also what about corrosion? I'm ready to deal with changing water but not with having to replace corroded waterblocks. Here is a quote I took from Koolances' web site.
"However, all Koolance copper components are gold-plated, which avoids corrosion.
Gold also resists the oxidation process, forever retaining its luster and transfer properties. In contrast, bare copper blocks quickly oxidize in water or air, becoming blotchy and eventually degrading performance."
I've been told this is a non issue yet in these very forums I just read that someone has a corroded waterblock and is trying to figure out how to clean it.
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2001
- Location
- Indianapolis, IN
There is a good point here. All high performance automotive rads are all aluminum. Why is that?
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2006
From my understanding TIG is expensive and difficult to master.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tig
It would be difficult to apply the TIG to a rad (not sayin it cant be done). As your tryin to heat up the aloy to make it melt the rad will almost just as quickly disipate the heat that you have applied. (the rad is designed to disipate heat quickly). As you heat the metal up it expands and warps a little makin it just that little bit harder to weld a straight line.
The argon gas you consume is dam expensive stuff. The amout of power you consume is massive. Think water cooled cables because TIG can draw so much energy the copper power cables can actually melt if you forget to switch the water cooling on.
They would have to sell A LOT of rads to recover the cost TIG.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tig
It would be difficult to apply the TIG to a rad (not sayin it cant be done). As your tryin to heat up the aloy to make it melt the rad will almost just as quickly disipate the heat that you have applied. (the rad is designed to disipate heat quickly). As you heat the metal up it expands and warps a little makin it just that little bit harder to weld a straight line.
The argon gas you consume is dam expensive stuff. The amout of power you consume is massive. Think water cooled cables because TIG can draw so much energy the copper power cables can actually melt if you forget to switch the water cooling on.
They would have to sell A LOT of rads to recover the cost TIG.
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2006
- Location
- Just outside Wright-Patterson AFB
My guess is weight and cost.
Here's a question, though. Aluminum is generally avoided for water-cooling PCs because of having mixed metals. I can't think of any copper components in a car's cooling system (could be wrong, just can't think of any...). There are aluminum blocks, aluminum heads, lots of steel, iron blocks, etc.
Here's a question, though. Aluminum is generally avoided for water-cooling PCs because of having mixed metals. I can't think of any copper components in a car's cooling system (could be wrong, just can't think of any...). There are aluminum blocks, aluminum heads, lots of steel, iron blocks, etc.
samuknow said:
Because in order to increase fin to tube contact area, you need wider tubing. However the wider the tubing is you need an increased wall thickness for structural integrety. They use aluminum because it is lighter, plain and simple. If they used copper instead, it WOULD cool the engine better, but it would weigh almost twice as much.
However in our case, weight is not an issue and copper alloy is the best material for our application.
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- Nov 13, 2001
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- Moderating
Alu rads for the automotive industry are cheaper to produce than copper ones.
Alu absorbs heat better.
Cu disapates heat better.
Having mixed materials, makes corrosion. Chemicals are needed.
Having big tubing, in systems like ours (PC's) helps the transfer of heat.
So, we use Cu rads in our applications.
IMHO, YMMV
Hope this helps.
Alu absorbs heat better.
Cu disapates heat better.
Having mixed materials, makes corrosion. Chemicals are needed.
Having big tubing, in systems like ours (PC's) helps the transfer of heat.
So, we use Cu rads in our applications.
IMHO, YMMV
Hope this helps.
