Watercooling & Limited airflow...doable?

I've finished a htpc build and have some trouble with heat building up in my rig. People over at htpc hinted this is the ultimate place for water cooling questions, so here it comes.

The rig I have is placed in an indent in the wall in the livingroom. I though it had farily enough space for cooling, but it seems that after changing all original noisy fans, and putting in a Zalman 9500 it still sounds a bit of a jet engine to keep it cool enough. Running silent is a no-no. Due to the indent and limited airflow, it tends to go hot after some 2-3 hours and temperatures on CPU reach 52-56, NorthBridge around 43-45 sometimes triggering the PC Probe (Asus) alarm.

I have frowned earlier at watercooling. Hey, liquid and electricity? Right
But I'm willing to give it a shot. If you guys think it helps and could quiet down the rig.

The questions are:
- Is it possible to achieve a cooler environment with water cooling and also get it to work if the airflow is limited still? (I'm thinking of the area around the radiators at the back). I might use 2 80 fans up front on the sides to suck air into the system though in silent mode if necessary.

- Can this be achieved with an internal liquid cooling system?

- I have 2 80 mm fan outlets at the back. 3 more (1 on each side, and one underneath the HD bay up front). So I'm lacking 120 mm... still achievable without modding the case too much?

- Components? I've been looking at Thermaltake pump and block cooler. I definitely need suggestions especially on the northbridge that tends to go to hot. Unfortunately Swiftek seems like the only place that does 80 mm radiators. Should I opt for two of these? How hot does the air go with watercooling?

I don't intend to overclock, game too much. More a peaceful system, opting for queit, tv watching and recording.

My rig is a:
932B Moncaso Chassi
Intel Core 2 Duo E6300
P5B Deluxe
Asus GeForce 7600GS
Zalman 460B PSU
Corsair 2 Gb
Samsung HD spinpoint.
Cooling with Zalman 9500 and 5 Cooltek fans (11db).

Thats kinda hot...

you still need fans on the rad so it will be as noizy as the fans you buy for your rad.... get some yates of something...

A larger rad offers more surface area to disipate heat and an oportunity to use quieter fans so I recomend a tripple 120mm rad if you have the space and cash for one.

The water is only goin to get as cool as the ambient temp, so puttin it into a stuffy corner doesnt help.

You may want to just buy a passive NB heat sink... but if your movin to water you might want to buy a water block for your NB.

Thanks for the suggestions.
I guess I'm hoping for too much from water-cooling? Ater all, the rads do need somewhere for the heat to dissipate into. I was thinking though that having them at the back of the case just next to the outlet, heat wouldn't build up so much inside the case as it does today, and hopefully I could try to vent it out somewhat...

120 mm fans are way to big for my rig unfortunately... but I could actually fit in 2 80 mm with rads on the sides and below the machine. And actually reverse the fans at the back and suck in the air from another indented compartment above the htpc? basically reverse the flow so it shoots out all the hot air towards the opening?? But with airflow, I'm limited in this...Hmmm... hard to explain. Guess I'll just have to try. The question is if 2 x 80 mm rads with queit fans is enough to cool down the water... I'm planning an on a reservoir, but it doesn't change the math that much I guess?

Having a water-cooled HTPC, I feel I can offer some good input (may also want to ask Landshark. He started with a better case, and therefore came up with a far more elegant solution). My HTPC case had only 2 60mm exhaust fans. No intake, nothing. I had also lined the case with automotive sound deadening, back when I only had an AthlonXP and a passively cooled 9600 video card. My solution was to mount a rather massive passive radiator on the top of the case (makes it look like a high-end amp). It added about 1.5-2 inches to the height of the case. I eventually cut a hole for a 120mm fan (intake) to blow directly on the HDs, and added a 1x80mm radiator (to act as a better and more silent exhaust)where the 2x60mm fans were. If you really do have very restricted airflow, this still may not work. I'd recommend the Zalman reserator, if it were built of higher quality components.

Welcome to the Forums, gentle man

Do you have any pics of your chassis? What I'd think would be a good solution is either front or top mount your radiator, depending on your case and what tools you have to work with.

Budget is also an issue. Seeing as you want a quiet rig, I'd get a Thermochill PA series rad (Preferably a 120.3), however, those are expensive. They are the best radiators out there I believe, and they can run very quiet fans without hindering performance (Yate Loons are a good balance of quiet and performance). Depending what you want to cool (as it's an HTPC, I'd suspect only the processor), you will need cash for blocks as well. I'd recommend a Swiftech Apogee or an Apogee GT, whichever you can afford. For a Pump, there is no better than the DDC/MCP350 for quiet. However, to get the best performance out of that pump, you will either need to mod the inlet and outlet to 1/2" barbs yourself, or buy an aftermarket top (Alphacool or Petra's top, Petras can be found here. There are also two versions of it, a 10w and an 18w version. The 18w, as you may suspect, is louder and puts more heat into the loop, however it is more powerful. I doubt you'll need the 18w for a single block loop, but it comes into play when you're running a restrictive loop. If you want a pump that requires no modding, the D5/MCP655 is the best option. It has a dial on the back so you can change the speed of the pump to fit your needs.

The biggest dilemma I see is your radiator mounting. Post back with pics of your case if possible, and I'll try to think of something.

I would highly recommend not buying a prebuilt WC loop (anything Thermaltake, Zalman, Kingwin etc). The only loops you should buy prebuilt are Swiftech, Danger Den or Petra's (which use a variety of high quality water cooling parts).

I would second the zalman reserator....

Afterall your not goin to OC... so you probably dont need custom parts.

Is this insane thinking?

Hi all and thanks for a very nice welcome
And thanks for all good suggestions!

I would like to avoid external (I know, making it easy isn't my thing). The reason is that a htpc case is never finished. There's allways something that needs adding or removing. TV cards etc etc.. you know the drill. So having it out once in awhile will be an issue if externally cooled...

I have enclosed a picture of the case below. Had to steal a pic or two from a review...

I actually had a very crazy idea just a few minutes ago.

I have a feeling that a lot of hot air is just being circulated around inside the case, and yes, adding the fact that it is built in an indent doesn't make it better. But then having a Zalman 9500 blowing hot air towards 2 x 80 mm fans running semi-quiet mode... Whatever they can't cope with will just remain inside the case and then enter the circle again. Whatever gets pushed out, will eventually travel up the sides of the case and reach the front part of the indent where unfortunately air is being sucked into the case by the side fan intakes... see picture below for my chassi.

I have added a 120 mm fan in the shelf at the back of the case (where the 80 mm fans are located). The fan either sucks cool air into the compartment (from a lower indent). It can also push the air into the lower indent, but it doesn't seem to work very well unfortunately, maybe because the shelf isn't that tight and hot air does seem to rise...

And now to the crazy idea!
How about changing it all? Reversing the airflow? Rethinking everything? And adding water-cooling?
The Zalman 9500 can for obvious reasons not turn the flow into the other direction (it would be stupid if not insane to start heating up the front of the chassi with HD, LCD screen, DVD etc. Besides, heat would still build up inside the case, where you don't really want it to be first place. So how about adding two radiators (80 mm) with a fan on each where the intake is located up front on the side. Instead of sucking the air in, I would push it out!?

To make sure the air dosn't get sucked towards the back of the indent due to underpressure, my 120 mm shelf mounted fan would be pushing cool air into the back, and if necessary the 80 mm at the back of the case would just have to be reversed and would suck the cool air into the case

Is this totally insane?

But then again, can one or two 80 mm radiators with a quiet fan each running at 11 dB (with 34 m3/hour) do enough to cool the liquid in the system containing a hot core 2 duo and a bummer of a hot Northbride on my Asus?

That's where you guys enter the picture

It would help to have a picture or two of your actual PC, populated with all the parts, and where it will actually be located.

For reversing the airflow, I'm not sure I get it, but if you think part of the problem was that there was nowhere to exhaust the hot air to, why do you think there will be cool air for the intake when you reverse tha airflow?

I'd strongly suggest you look for LandShark's HTPC build on the forums. If I ever get my lazy *** in gear, I'll post the pics of my rig. Pretty on the outside, fugly on the inside!