vinegar instead of water?

[Dissolved]

i was thinking of trying this in my water cooling system..
anyone else ever tryed it?

[funnyperson1]

Vinegar is an acid...i wouldnt use it if i were you, over a period of time your computer would be corroded....

[Dissolved]

Originally posted by funnyperson1
Vinegar is an acid...i wouldnt use it if i were you, over a period of time your computer would be corroded....

i know it is, but what about distilled vinegar?

[Jeff Bolton]

i don't know anything about water cooling, but what's the point? if vinegar is an acid it will corrode your water system...you are wanting to get away from water yet distilling it throws water back into the equation. seems like you'd have to get a perfect mix of both to get away from the harmful effects of both if it was to work. is there some crazy property of vinegar that i don't know about? :D

jeff

[Dissolved]

does anyone know facts about this? im looking for answers not guesses..

[AntmanMike]

All vinegar has a pH below 7, which means its an acid. Acid's corrode metals and other materials. It would wear away your tubing (yes, the tubing will weat away, metal, rubber, etc.), the radiator, the water block, and definately the pump. Vinegar isn't too good of a heat conductor either I beleive. I wouldn't want my PC smelling like it either.

[Christoph]

I know that if you were dead set on using vinegar, you could probably neutralize it with baking soda or some other base so that it wouldn't eat away at your waterblock. Why do you want to use vinegar anyway? Water has a very high heat capacity, and if you mixed it with vinegar, you'd probably lower the heat capacity.

[ButcherUK]

Originally posted by AntmanMike
All vinegar has a pH below 7, which means its an acid. Acid's corrode metals and other materials. It would wear away your tubing (yes, the tubing will weat away, metal, rubber, etc.), the radiator, the water block, and definately the pump. Vinegar isn't too good of a heat conductor either I beleive. I wouldn't want my PC smelling like it either.
Any decent tubing would be resistant to acid. It would corrode the rad, blocks, etc. though.

[jbell]

how about maple syrup???


that would work wouldnt it??

plus it smells great - imagine firing up the old rig and mmmmm I want pancakes!

how cool!

[Iamghey]

I heard that using oil is good, but I don't know what kind... baby oil? cooking oil? I don't know...

[Dissolved]

Originally posted by jbell
how about maple syrup???


that would work wouldnt it??

plus it smells great - imagine firing up the old rig and mmmmm I want pancakes!

how cool!

that wouldnt flow, and sugar would eat away too..

as far as vinegar, my moms bf said it would be good, only reason why i was wondering..

btw, i got some "vons"(supermarket in so calif) and it started to currode my water block.. i would of taken pics, but i couldnt seeing all i have is a web cam..
its only about 2+weeks old, and it was curroded pretty bad.. so i dunno what to do.. im gonna get a different brand of water, new tubeing and a new smaller pump next month.

[Iamghey]

Oh oh oh!I think car engine, no, wait Castrol GTX? no wait, that's a lubricant.0.0

[ol' man]

Originally posted by Iamghey
Oh oh oh!I think car engine, no, wait Castrol GTX? no wait, that's a lubricant.0.0

Vinegar will eat away aluminum if it has not been anodized but it will not harm copper usually unless it is very strong and very "HOT" but still if you had a leak you would kill everything in your computer very very fast as it will short out stuff cause it is a electrical conductor cause of its ionic properties. Do not use vinegar unless you are doing so for a short time to clean out some carbonates in your block. Even then I would say pull out your block and let it soak for a day or so and not to run it in the system but you know some people just cannot do with out their box so some may do this. Vineagr will not help the cooling. If you have a Aluminum block I would highly suggest against it.

I am not guessing and since I am in my third year of studying chemistry I think I am slightly qualified to give you a answer that is not a guess. DON"T USE VINEGAR! Use distilled H2O just for the sake if it leaks you will possibly not kill your system with alos a small amount of antifreeze(10%) to stop the production of electrolytes.

[BigBlockk]

What about alcohol? I've seen frost form on the outside of the injector stacks on dragsters and sprint cars that run alcohol. And thats in the middle of summer. I know this is vaporizin a liquid but alcohol may absorb more heat than water in a liquid form.

How bout gittin some a that wetter water stuff you put in cars. It brakes down the molecular (boy I hope I spelt that rite) structure of water and allows it to soke up more heat. Make a car run 15 maybe 20 degrees cooler they say. Just a thought.

BigBlockk

Later.....

[Christoph]

Countless hours of debating have resulted (AFAIK) in the consensus that water is the best stuff to use. Most people with closed watercooling systems also add a little water wetter to dercease friction (speed up flow) and some even add a drop or two of liquid dish soap to get rid of any surface tension.
There are also those who own eMachines who say that water and computers don't mix. :rolleyes:

[Dissolved]

Originally posted by IdeaMagnate
Countless hours of debating have resulted (AFAIK) in the consensus that water is the best stuff to use. Most people with closed watercooling systems also add a little water wetter to dercease friction (speed up flow) and some even add a drop or two of liquid dish soap to get rid of any surface tension.
There are also those who own eMachines who say that water and computers don't mix. :rolleyes:

haha, i like that last saying..

[Diggrr]

I've used vinegar once thinking it would clean out my waterblock, radiator, and bong.

It's not that it eats this metal, or that one, of course it will. And honestly the cooling was about the same.

The problem was that the battery effect copper plated the brass hose barbs everywhere the solution touched. Then it started to turn very brownish red. Nothing could clean out that poor bong and all the tubing attached, and now it's in the basement as a condo for the spiders.

And where do think all the copper deposites came from to plate the brass and turn the pvc and vinyl brown?

I have tried it, and I would recommend you Don't . It's not something I'd do to an enemy.

And neutralizing it with baking soda? Try it in the driveway....cause the ensuing foam could safely be used to land airplanes in. Mine held a gallon.
After they land, cook them dinner on your 300C Athlon cause foam doesn't pump and it doesn't cool.

If your block is corroded, take it out of the system, remove the brass barbs, and fill it with the vinegar. Let it sit for a day or two as it's not that strong. Rinse, dry, and re-install.
It will clean metals as long as it's one at a time, and there's no battery circuit.

[ButcherUK]

Originally posted by Dissolved


that wouldnt flow, and sugar would eat away too..

as far as vinegar, my moms bf said it would be good, only reason why i was wondering..

btw, i got some "vons"(supermarket in so calif) and it started to currode my water block.. i would of taken pics, but i couldnt seeing all i have is a web cam..
its only about 2+weeks old, and it was curroded pretty bad.. so i dunno what to do.. im gonna get a different brand of water, new tubeing and a new smaller pump next month.

You're getting corrosion, are you running stright water or do you have water wetter or antifreeze in there? If not you should have with the block you list as it's an Al/Cu mixed block which is just asking for battery effect in untreated water.

[SavageHenry]

Originally posted by BigBlockk
I've seen frost form on the outside of the injector stacks on dragsters and sprint cars that run alcohol. And thats in the middle of summer.

I bet the frost is forming because of the phase change (alcohol going from liquid to vapor as it's injected). It's the same theory behind evaporative cooling towers. Alcohol wouldn't be good for PC evaporative cooling because it would evaporate too quickly, you'd constantly be refilling your reservoir.

[Christoph]

Also, dragsters aren't exactly the hallmark of effeciency. I think that they average about 56 gallons of fuel for 1/4 of a mile.

[tahustvedt]

What if the pump stopped in a system with alcohol. :)


KABOOOM!!!


lol.

[BigBlockk]

As I said in my post, in race cars you are vaporizing a liquid. This draws a lot of heat out of the surrounding surfaces hence the frost. Vaporizing water in a vessel doesn't cause it to frost up. Thus the latent heat of vaporization of alcohol is more than water it seems to me. In a water block system there is no vaporization but I wonder if liquid alcohol would absorb more heat than water.

I don't know. Someone with with more brains then me will have to come up with the answer to this one, I'm just making an observation. Anybody out there got any smarts about thermal or gas dynamics?

BigBlockk

Later.....

[jbell]

Originally posted by Dissolved


that wouldnt flow, and sugar would eat away too..



LOL it was a joke man

[Iamghey]

So would Baby Oil be better than water?
Engine Oil?
Mineral Oil?

[ButcherUK]

Originally posted by Iamghey
So would Baby Oil be better than water?
Engine Oil?
Mineral Oil?
No, no, and no. Water is the best liquid available within it's temperature range.

[Dissolved]

Originally posted by jbell



LOL it was a joke man

i know..

[Iamghey]

I've heard that Mineral oil is synthetic or something and that it doesn't conduct electricity, I think it was either mineral oil or hydralic oil... anyway, I heard that they both conduct heat better than water

[Diggrr]

Mineral oil is a non-synthetic oil use in big power transformers like the one that's hanging from your phone pole. They switched to mineral oil because it does not contain PCB's that are very costly to dispose of. It's so costly, the power will give you a used transformer for about $1.00 a pound to save the cost of disposal.

Mineral (Baby oil if fragrance is added) is dielectric. Problem is that it's about 6-8 times the viscosity of water. The pump to push it would be large and expensive, I imagine. Your magdrive is out of the question.

Transformer oil is about $8.00 a gallon up to $15.00 a gallon. As is the problem with mineral oil, it doesn't pump well. Transformers have no pump. The oil moves heat by convection. You've seen transformers with a kind of radiator on them. That works great if what you're cooling can take 200F-300F like the copper core of a distribution transformer can. Convection works too slow for us.

Tests posted in other threads show that if you refrigerate your fluid, then alcohol is a good additive to your water, but starts loosing ground in performance compared to just plain water when it approaches room temp.

Water seems to be the best. The additives like WaterWetter and anti freeze work best at a room temp situation mixed with water.

To improve cooling, we'll need to look at a better means of getting heat out of the water. There is as yet no magik bullet (water additive) yet capable of increasing the efficiency of the radiator to air interface. You just plain need a better radiator.

Anyway, someone else's turn on the soapbox.:D

[Iamghey]

Basically, use water and CAR anti-freeze? How much % of each should I use?

[Diggrr]

I only use 10cc to a quart of water. I only use it to stop corrosion in my copper, and because I'm too cheap to buy water wetter. Much more than that tends to make your temps worse.

Here's a good recipe from overclock-watercool.
http://data-detective.com/overclock/coolant.html

[Iamghey]

I'm even cheaper and a newbie too... what does the antifreeze do? why does the waterblock/radiator corrod? Would plain water work???

[Diggrr]

In science class, you took two different metals, added a weak acid, and made a battery.

Same thing. The stuff disolved in tap water can make a weak acid (or alkiline, same result). Antifreeze is made to stop this.
If you read you cars owners manual it said to use distilled water with the antifreeze also. A car has copper seals, aluminum radiator, steel engine block. Distilled water works with the antifreeze to stop corrosion in an engine, and it will in your computer too. You have a copper waterblock, brass hose barbs, and an aluminum radiator.

You need to use both.
Super cheap people (like myself) have gotten by with boiling a pot of water, let it cool by itself all the way, run it through a coffee filter, and use it in the 'puter. This is temporary, as it does not get all the minerals and disolved gasses out of the water.

[Iamghey]

would u say that I can get by with plain distilled water? or filtered boiling water? What Anti-freeze would u recommend?

[Diggrr]

Any green antifreeze will work. I hear the red GM stuff eats plastic parts in your system.

Like I said, the boiled version is temporary. Just enough to get you to payday.

Plain distilled water will work for a couple of weeks, but I wouldn't go longer than that. Especially if you have aluminum parts in your system. They corrode faster.

Besides, distilled water is only a buck a gallon. That's only 10 doper dollars (returnable pop cans).

[Iamghey]

Are u sure that aluminium corrodes???

[Diggrr]

Most definately. It gets all white and fuzzy looking. Copper gets dark and multi-colored. If you've got any acids/alkalies' in the system this all happens much faster and much worse. Copper starts to get green and fuzzy.

These 'oxide' coatings insulate pretty well, and will cause many problems with temp/stability.

I believe that's the problem that started this post :D

[Iamghey]

Does anyone know of a get-paid-to-read-emails-company I would be rich cuz I'm getting notification emails like every minute!

[CrystalMethod]

Originally posted by BigBlockk
What about alcohol? I've seen frost form on the outside of the injector stacks on dragsters and sprint cars that run alcohol. And thats in the middle of summer. I know this is vaporizin a liquid but alcohol may absorb more heat than water in a liquid form.

How bout gittin some a that wetter water stuff you put in cars. It brakes down the molecular (boy I hope I spelt that rite) structure of water and allows it to soke up more heat. Make a car run 15 maybe 20 degrees cooler they say. Just a thought.

BigBlockk

Later.....
The frost is formed due to the air flow and the atomized fuel. Pretty much the same principal as bong cooling. If one of the carbs on my car is not adjusted right, that cylinder either misfires (detonation), or that carb freezes up completely. Has almost nothing to do with the fuel used, alcohol just evaporates faster so the effect is more intense.

[ButcherUK]

Originally posted by Diggrr
The stuff disolved in tap water can make a weak acid (or alkiline, same result). Antifreeze is made to stop this.

You get it regardless of tap / distilled choice, the Cu / Al dissolve slightly in the water and ionise it, same reason distilled water will fry your comp if it leaks. As you say antifreeze (or water wetter) is a must have.

[ol' man]

Originally posted by ButcherUK


You get it regardless of tap / distilled choice, the Cu / Al dissolve slightly in the water and ionise it, same reason distilled water will fry your comp if it leaks. As you say antifreeze (or water wetter) is a must have.

Tell me how a hydronium ION is going to dissolve Cu. It isn't going to happen. Aluminum it will if it is freshly exposed! Copper is not low enough on the oxidation series to be oxidized by the H3O+ ion. Also I would dare you to put pure H2O in an aluminum tank and tell me how many thousands of years it takes for it to corrode through it. Now if you use oxidizing tap water with a dissolved anion such as Cl- which will form other compounds regarding what cations are present, then you will have a different senerio. I have had crystallized H2O form on my mobo in cryo cooling experiments that later turned to water when the machine was running and it ran fine. It is when you have dissolved solids in the soltution that there are problems. Usually the worse ones are anything above what ever solid metal you have your block made from.

Her is a good short lesson on what happens and why H3O+ will not attack Cu by its self.

http://www.chemistry.ohio-state.edu/~grandinetti/teaching/Chem121/lectures/Solution%20Reactions/ActivitySeries.jpg

Notice H+ is above Cu so it will not attack Cu.

[ButcherUK]

Well if you have completely pure water, yes, but buying distilled water doesn't mean it's completely pure, they guarantee 90% (I think) :) Also I was making the point about a mixed Al / Cu system (sorry if that was a little unclear), in that it doesn't matter what's in the water, water conducts itself so you'll get battery effect.

[PsYko420]

Ok again but in another post
MINERAL OIL IS A HORRIBLE CONDUCTOR OF HEAT!
And as for the alcohol just put 1/3 alcohol in your rest then 2/3 water it won't start on fire (not concentrated enuff) and won't evaporate (no where for it to evaporate(water cooling is a closed system))

[Slurgi]

I would like to point out that in an earlier post somebody mentioned mixing the following.

CH3COOH (vinegar) + NaHCO3(baking soda) ---> CH3COONa(sodium acetate) + H2O(water) + CO2(carbon dioxide)


Basically acidity is hydrogen ions which are very apt to reach out and grab a molecule of something and not necessarily hold on. OH ions take a hydrogen and thus are the opposite of an acid (thus making it a base).

The bubbles you see are carbon dioxide. Put your nose up and sniff. Smells good doesnt it? ;)

basically putting both together is pointless. You end up with sodium acetate, water, and carbon dioxide. This only kills the amount of heat water can store and how fast it can transfer heat. All you get in your water cooling solution is more water and sodium acetate. Also, the yielded solution sodium acetate is still a weak base, which can still dissolve copper i beleive.

I hope this information is correct, I am not actually 100% sure. This is half information from the internet and half what i actually know from physical science. I havent even taken chemistry yet (i am already signed up for next year).

Can any chemistry nuts tell me this information is valid or not?

[Christoph]

Seems valid (I'm in chemistry now). I was thinking of how to neutralize the metal dissolving properties of acetic acid, but you're right that to do that, you'd have to change the chemical makeup of the vinegar, and then it wouldn't be vinegar anymore.

[ol' man]

Originally posted by Slurgi
I would like to point out that in an earlier post somebody mentioned mixing the following.

CH3COOH (vinegar) + NaHCO3(baking soda) ---> CH3COONa(sodium acetate) + H2O(water) + CO2(carbon dioxide)


Basically acidity is hydrogen ions which are very apt to reach out and grab a molecule of something and not necessarily hold on. OH ions take a hydrogen and thus are the opposite of an acid (thus making it a base).

The bubbles you see are carbon dioxide. Put your nose up and sniff. Smells good doesnt it? ;)

basically putting both together is pointless. You end up with sodium acetate, water, and carbon dioxide. This only kills the amount of heat water can store and how fast it can transfer heat. All you get in your water cooling solution is more water and sodium acetate. Also, the yielded solution sodium acetate is still a weak base, which can still dissolve copper i beleive.

I hope this information is correct, I am not actually 100% sure. This is half information from the internet and half what i actually know from physical science. I havent even taken chemistry yet (i am already signed up for next year).

Can any chemistry nuts tell me this information is valid or not?

Well try it and find out. I am thinking that NaOAc will not dissolve copper in solution as it would take something like silver acetate to dissolve it. Na+ ion for the above reasons is not enough to suck e-'s from the solid Cu forming a ion. I though I made that clear above. I am not saying though that a solution of a vary hot 80% solution of acetic acid would not dissolve the Cu over time but there is a big difference between Concentrated Acetic Acid and the Na salt of it. As has been mentioned I though time and time again it takes a oxidizing acid such as HNO3 and or over time H2SO4 will finally get a reaction going but it is not a direct H+ attack it first is the reaction of the SO3+ ion with the Cu that gets the reation started. A mixture of HNO3 and HCl will dissolve it too as also probably HCN in solution. H2S in solution may also but these operate by different mechanisms. I have never made a solution NaOAc and tried to see how it affected say a penny? Sounds like a good experiment:D Take a equal molar amount of baking soda and acetic acid and combine to form a solution of NaOAc. Then drop a panny in it and tell me how many days it takes to expose the Zinc underneith. If it truly dissolves Cu then the penny will turn silver and then it will eventually eat away the zinc too. My guess is you will be waiting for about 1 month before it does anything. It may turn slightly green after awhile. I know if I leave copper next to the kitchen sink the water we have where I live will leave a green spot under the copper after repeated contact cause we have Chloramines and all kinds of weird ionic oxidizers. Our water sucks and if one really though about running this through a copper block they ought to have the head examined.

I also suggest you simply take a penny and put it in vinegar and tell us how long it takes to start turning the solution green. This may happen but it will take awhile. I think CuOAc is soluble in H2O but it may not be. The thing that will have to react fist will be the HCO3- ion with the Cu as I have said above the H+ itself will not react cause it is above Cu in the activity series. When you start using organic acids and make the time frame a couple of months the reaction will happen possibly. Anything over time will react but as a chemist I hate waiting for more than a few hours for something to go. The longest reaction I have ever done lasted around 12 hours. I left it over night went home and checked it in the morning.