View Full Version : WC Consultation
I am relatively new to these forums so I spent the better part of last night reading all the stickies and the first page or two of posts in the water cooling section. This will be my 1st time water cooling a system (cherry popper). I just built a computer with the following specs:
AMD athlon 64 x2 6000+
ASUS M2R32-MVP
2x1gigs corsair XMS2 6400
Liteon DVD drive
Sapphire 2900XT 1gig ddr4
Rocketfish 700w
250 SATA WD
case : http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811226005
I am wanting to water cool because this graphics card is smoking hot. Under a good load I have seen it in the 90's celsius. I have also never done water cooling before so this would be a good time to give it a shot.
Goal: Water cool the CPU and the GPU in a closed loop with a radiator and a res.
I don't want to cut up the case if I don't have too. As far as price its not a big deal but I will cut costs when I can. So far I am planning to go with the dtek fusion block for the processor. I am not sure what the best way to water cool the graphics card is. A water block or a full card cooler. I plan on using 1/2" tubing with either a 5.25" res or one of the micro res's. Seems like the micro is the better choice for performance from what I have read. Pump I have no idea. The reason I linked the case is because I need help figuring out where to fit all this stuff. So far I love the design of the case, but I really didn't have watercooling in mind when I picked it. Right now the bottom 4 5.25's are empty I have a memory card reader in the top external 3.5 and a HD in the top internal 3.5 I will probably move the HD under the card reader and free up that whole internal drive bay.
So in the end my questions are:
What pump should I get that wont take up a lot of space but still gets the job done? (I would like one that turns on when the comp does)
What should my loop order be? ex : pump > rad > GPU > CPU > res > pump
What type of cooling medium is best for a noob?
Where do I put all this stuff!?
I would prefer to order all my parts from 1 site so far I checked out frozencpu and newegg are there any other places with good selection and prices?
How much wood could a wood chuck chuck?
What pump should I get that wont take up a lot of space but still gets the job done? (I would like one that turns on when the comp does)
Swiftech MCP655.
What should my loop order be? ex : pump > rad > GPU > CPU > res > pump
Doesn't really matter much. Just try to reduce the length of tubing if possible. Putting the pump right after and below the reservoir is generally a good thing though.
What type of cooling medium is best for a noob?
Medium? Do you mean what to use as coolant? Distilled water and 5% antifreeze, with a couple drops of iodine.
Where do I put all this stuff!?
Really, the only thing you'll need to worry about is the radiator.
I would prefer to order all my parts from 1 site so far I checked out frozencpu and newegg are there any other places with good selection and prices?
SVC (Silicon Valley Computer) and Sidewinder are both ok, I've ordered from them both.
How much wood could a wood chuck chuck?
A woodchuck can chuck as much wood as a woodchuck can chuck, if his dentures are any good.
So I'm trying to get a price worked out here just did as much as I could from 1 site
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/swapexpebl.html
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/swmcre1.html
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/ty1idx11odx3.html 8 feet
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/brmihocl7int1.html x 12
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/swmc12vdcpuw.html Don't know if its worth it to go with the one with speed control or not.
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/hwlablicegtb2.html
Do the prices seem reasonable?
I have AS5 sitting here at home. I don't know what GPU cooler is going to
work with a 2900xt going to have to do a bit of research on that. If someone knows a few offhand that would be great.
How big is that pump? (looks about baseball sized)
Will that be enough tubing?
I want to have a little extra incase i botch a line or 2.
I am open to any tweaks or suggestions since this is my 1st time water cooling. If their are any compatibility issues please let me know.
eightballrj
07-13-07, 02:36 PM
I have AS5 sitting here at home. I don't know what GPU cooler is going to work with a 2900xt going to have to do a bit of research on that. If someone knows a few offhand that would be great.
MCW60 with two packs of ramsinks... nuff said
Thanks for the info guys I'll be ordering in a few days here. Just gonna browse for some good prices. Again any more modding sites that have good prices and service would be great :D
Not sure a 1X120mm rad will be enough. You'll be better off with a 2X120mm rad. The Black Ice series rads are good, but you'll need high output fan(s). I personally like the Swiftech MCR220 Quiet Power 2X120mm rad, in fact, that's what I'm using right now.
I don't think i can manage to fit a 120x2 rad in the case. If that one isn't enough then i might be able to fit a 2nd one in the case somewhere.
I added:
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/swmcbgamera.html x2
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/swmcvgacowim.html
Anyone else have any comments on the radiator?
Space is gonna be tough, if I need to get a 120x2 for cooling I may be able to squeeze it in the front or chop a hole in the bottom. I really don't want to be cutting though. I can also find room for a 2nd 120 radiator if It is needed.
Swiftech's MCR series rads currently occupy the price/performance sweet spot. I haven't heard as much about them, but CoolingWorks Coolrad x2T series is probably very similar.
Two single rads will restrict your coolant flow a bit compared to a double, but not enough to really matter with a good pump. You definitely want more than one 120 if thermal performance is your main reason for going with watercooling.
Have you considered mounting your rad above the case on standoffs? You can bring your tubing out the back of the card stack to avoid using the hole saw on your case. If you're also averse to drilling small holes in it, you could use the PSU screws to anchor the standoffs at the back. I'm not sure how you'd secure the front of the rad to the case, but with the case there to look at, perhaps you can come up with something.
Though the current version of the mcp355 is considered by many to be a disappointment because the head is lower than in previous versions, it's still a good pump. If the 655 is too big for your case, the 355 will do almost as well, and it will fit almost anywhere.
I would really like to do this right if I do it. I would prefer it all enclosed in the PC since I will be moving the computer around at times, and I like the clean look of it. I saw a 120x2 steal bracket somewhere that mounts on the outside of the case for an interal rad, I thought looked real nice. After taking a long look at my case the only spots I can fit a 120x2 is the bottom or the top with cutting the case for ventilation. Top IMO being the better option since the legs give the bottom maybe 1/3" clearance. I'll just have to find someone with a decent saw to cut aluminum. I've only cut a case once before my guess is a jigsaw with some starter points drilled would be the best option.
Is the 655 about the size of a baseball? If it is I can find a spot for it. There is one with an adjustable speed should i fork the extra few bucks for it or will I want to run it at the one speed anyways?
Should I go with a res? Since I'll be moving the 5.25" drive bay down for mounting the rad up top (internal) I might not be able to get a res in there. I was planning on putting it in the bottom of the 5.25 bay. If not there the only other spot I could put it would be at the bottom of the case at the same level of the pump. I would like something thats easy to fill and drain.
Couple more simple questions as well...
Should fans suck are through the radiator or blow it through?
Does it matter which way the water flows through all the blocks/rads (do they have an in and an out) or are they fairly universal?
Top IMO being the better option since the legs give the bottom maybe 1/3" clearance.
Top mount is probably more common, but you could give the case longer legs.
Is the 655 about the size of a baseball?
It's a little larger. Dimensions here:
http://www.swiftnets.com/products/mcp655.asp#
There is one with an adjustable speed should i fork the extra few bucks for it or will I want to run it at the one speed anyways?
The pump isn't terribly loud, but if you're going for near silence, you might want to turn the speed down. But then, if you want silence, you'll want the an MCP350 with a modified top instead of the 655. Slowing down the pump can help get the bubbles out of your loop a little sooner.
Should I go with a res? Since I'll be moving the 5.25" drive bay down for mounting the rad up top (internal) I might not be able to get a res in there. I was planning on putting it in the bottom of the 5.25 bay. If not there the only other spot I could put it would be at the bottom of the case at the same level of the pump. I would like something thats easy to fill and drain.
Res or T-line is really a matter of personal preference. I've never used one, but everyone who has the Swiftech microres seems to like it.
http://www.swiftnets.com/products/MCRES-micro.asp
Whatever you do, don't get a bay res. No one has anything good to say about those.
Should fans suck are through the radiator or blow it through?
This varies from setup to setup, but generally, people trying to minimize noise prefer to have the fans pull (suck). Thermochill claims that pushing gives the best thermal performance with their rads, and IIRC, this was backed up by Cathar's experience with the PA160. I wouldn't worry too much about this, the difference between pushing and pulling will be slight.
Does it matter which way the water flows through all the blocks/rads (do they have an in and an out) or are they fairly universal?
It usually doesn't matter for radiators, but blocks often have a designated inlet. The manufacturer should tell you this. If one barb is in the center, and the other is toward the edge, the center barb is almost certainly the inlet.
Otter is giving you some good info. But, I have a Swiftech bay res and I love it. Generally, it's better to have fans blowing into the rad.
Noise isn't a huge deal with me if its quiet thats a bonus. Right now my 2900xt gets up to 95C and that worries me. If I put the fan on 100% it goes down to 85C on load (stock clock-speed) but that fan is extremely loud on 100%. Once I get the temp down I might play with over-clocking but I'll take it one thing at a time. I'm going to grab a http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/swmcqupo2x.html instead of the single. One thing that is very appealing about the design on this as well is the end has a wide "V" cut to it. I have about 12.5" between the front of my case and my power supply so that will actually help give the cables some more room to come out.
The swiftech micro res was on my list of things to get for the system. I think for the price I will order it. If I can make it fit awesome, if not oh well ill have some more stuff to toss in my extra part box. After looking at the T-lines I think I would prefer a res. If I can't get the micro to fit somewhere I might just go with a bay res. The micro does seem to be a better design, vertical makes more sens then horizontal as far as water turbulence/bubbles.
I was just going to use water / a little antifreeze but after reading some of the posts from earlier members about the health risks with it I might be looking at a different additive. Are there any clear additives that keep growth out but wont pose health risks?
Thanks for all your help so far guys looks like my components are starting to line up!
Side note: After changing some parts and looking back at my list I am now looking at almost all swiftech parts excluding the ransinks/pump/tubing etc. I'm guessing they make some quality parts for WC.
Whatever you do, don't get a bay res. No one has anything good to say about those.
:eh?: I happen to rather like my Alphacool Repak bay res. Just like any other component quality of designs on the market varies greatly. Some cheaper designs tend to be prone to leakage at corner joints but the Repak is machined from solid.
http://home.cogeco.ca/~legarep/P1010355.JPG
For a smaller case I would recommend the MCP350 for its small size.
Here is an example of a system I assembled a couple years ago into a similar size case, slightly smaller in fact. CPU and GPU bocks, dual rad, 7/16 tubes, no cutting applied. The BlackIce BIP2 is a good rad option for smaller cases given its thin profile, and works well with lower cfm fans.
http://home.cogeco.ca/~legarep/images/P1010061.JPG
Noise isn't a huge deal with me if its quiet thats a bonus. Right now my 2900xt gets up to 95C and that worries me. If I put the fan on 100% it goes down to 85C on load (stock clock-speed) but that fan is extremely loud on 100%.
The D5/MCP655 is fairly quiet. However, if you make a point of quieting down all your fans, and have a quiet PSU and reasonably quiet drives, the pump will become the loudest thing in your system. But it doesn't sound like you're really going for silence at this point, so you'll probably be happy with the D5 if you've got room for it.
Once I get the temp down I might play with over-clocking but I'll take it one thing at a time. I'm going to grab a http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/swmcqupo2x.html instead of the single.
The MCR series is a good choice. It's a bit less restrictive than the now obsolete BIPs and hence gives a little more performance quiet fans.
The micro does seem to be a better design, vertical makes more sens then horizontal as far as water turbulence/bubbles.
I think that's part of the reason bay reservoirs have such a bad rep. Apparently I was wrong about no one having anything good to say about those. I can't recall ever having heard praise for a bay res before, though.
I was just going to use water / a little antifreeze but after reading some of the posts from earlier members about the health risks with it I might be looking at a different additive. Are there any clear additives that keep growth out but wont pose health risks?
Antifreeze is safe enough as long as you don't drink it. If you're concerned about pets or children getting into it, though, propylene glycol is much less toxic.
Antifreeze won't kill the small stuff, though. We use it to prevent corrosion. 5-20 drops/liter of clear iodine and some aquarium algaecide (preferably not copper sulfate, as that will increase the conductivity of coolant), will take care of algae, bacteria, and fungi.
Side note: After changing some parts and looking back at my list I am now looking at almost all swiftech parts excluding the ransinks/pump/tubing etc. I'm guessing they make some quality parts for WC.
It's easy to recommend Swiftech. Pretty much everything they sell is quality, and they have great tech support too.
After a few days of checking things out in terms of pricing and reading more threads I have decided to go with 3/8 instead of 1/2. I am worried about routing the tubing in the case and I think 3/8 will be easier. I read the tube sticky and it doesn't make a big enough performance difference to go with 1/2". I will also make a little diagram how I plan to set it up. As for the list of parts it has changed a little bit!
Instead of the MCP 655 I am going with the 350
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16835108063
Space might be what it comes down too and it seems like this is a decent pump as well. I was also worried the MCP655 was going to be more work with the 3/8" tubing.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16835108077
Good price and with some ramsinks. One thing that worries me is that it does not say the tubing size.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16835108086
Same rad :D
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16811998127
Some cheap fans because fans are fans to me. Getting 3.
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/blny3nptthto.html
For the rad / extra's that hopfully fit the VGA waterblock if I need them (need info here for thread size.) I will check out swifts site too.
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/brmihocl7int.html
x12 to get a few extras just in case
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/tyr33id5odla.html
10ft of tubing I hope is enough.
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/arast2xalbla.html
grill for the top of my case
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/swmcbgamera.html
more ramsinks because this video-card is a beast with stuff I need to cool.
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/swapexpebl.html
Same water-block.
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/swmcre1.html
The res.
Thats the list of parts I am planning on ordering on Monday which gives us a few days to get some minor tweaking/add parts to the list that I will need. I want to have EVERYTHING I NEED to get this setup going when I get the parts. So is their anything I missed?
Getting distilled water from store.
Getting some clear iodine(where do I get iodine?)
Getting some algaecide from a petstore
Going to see if I can bum a little anti-freeze from someone so I don't have to buy a huge thing of it. or should i just get:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835703026&Tpk=water%2bwetter
PS: Right now I am looking at ~315$ with shipping to get all this done.
Edit:::: After reading swiftech's site I think I need http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/mcg80adkitfo.html to get it to mount on my 2900xt So I added that to the list as well.
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/2881/casedu8.th.jpg (http://img508.imageshack.us/my.php?image=casedu8.jpg)
Thats my plan.
JamesXP
07-21-07, 03:34 AM
Junk the fans and get yate loons, I think they're like 3$
You can get iodine at the drugstore. Not all of them carry clear, though, so you might have to try two or three. I think it's sometimes called white iodine or decolorized iodine too.
I agree with James on the fans. The Yate Loon D12SM-12 is rated for a few more CFM than the fan you picked from Newegg and will probably be a lot less noisy. Jabtech has them for $3.15 if you get three of them. It works out to be only about a buck more than the $5 newegg fans even with the extra shipping charge.
http://www.jab-tech.com/product.php?productid=3770
You might want some way to lower your fans' speed. The Loons work well undervolted and don't make obnoxious noises on PWM. The adjustable fan headers on most motherboards work by PWM. Keep in mind that some mobos can't take more than one medium speed fan.
I didn't see thermal paste on your list, but maybe you already have that.
I have AS5 to use that I bought when I purchased the parts. Hows the loop work?
Catscratch
07-24-07, 05:08 AM
One more newbie here :D
Ciler, Is it reliable to do it like you drafted, pump>gpu>cpu>rad>res ? CPU doesn't suffer from heated water from gpu ?
JamesXP
07-24-07, 05:21 AM
The order doesn't matter, eventually the water in the system will reach one temp.
Ciler, Is it reliable to do it like you drafted, pump>gpu>cpu>rad>res ? CPU doesn't suffer from heated water from gpu ?
As GPU's dissipate more and more heat, component order will start to matter, but only slightly. I'm not sure whether or not I believe it, but they say the 2900XT uses slightly more than 200 watts. Though some of this heat might be dissipated with ram and transistor sinks, that's still a lot of heat added to the loop.
You can estimate the temperature rise across any component or group of components with this formula.
c=.0038*watts/gpm
With a 200w GPU, a 10w pump, and flow rate of 1.2gpm we get
.0038*210/1.2=.66c
But with the res and pump mounted as shown, I'd probably pick the same loop you did, Ciler. OTOH, if I were going to run a t-line in that case, I'd put the T between GPU block and pump and reverse the flow to shave half a C or so off the CPU temp.
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