View Full Version : Car rad for WC setup?
Why dont more people use car rads for their WCing setups???.....
It seems quite logical to me if you can get a car rad for half the price of a 3x120mm off the shelf rad and its like twice the size whats the point in spending more money?
Fair enuf if you want all your sruf inside the case but if the rads gunna be ouside you can strap it to the side of your case.
It cant be that hard to convert the fittings either.
All opinions and views are welcome
thideras
07-15-07, 02:41 PM
Why dont more people use car rads for their WCing setups???.....
It seems quite logical to me if you can get a car rad for half the price of a 3x120mm off the shelf rad and its like twice the size whats the point in spending more money?
Fair enuf if you want all your sruf inside the case but if the rads gunna be ouside you can strap it to the side of your case.
It cant be that hard to convert the fittings either.
All opinions and views are welcomeThe only problem I forsee is: Isn't the tubing used to connect those like 2" ID?
Why wouldn't people use them? Space :cool:
Putting the rad on the side of my case would be immpossible for me as all my wiring goes behind the motherboard, it may work for others but I'm giving you an example where it would not. :bday:
EDIT: But I tell you what! That would look REALLY cool if you could strap that to the side of your case!
im a complete noob to WC...thats why i created teh thread rel...to see what people said.
When/if i get a WCing setup i will definiately try and get a beastly rad off a car working with it.
the tubing would be the main problem as you stated....how easy is it to get 2" to 1/2" converters?
JamesXP
07-15-07, 02:54 PM
You'd probably have to mod a the size tube you need onto it.... like with a heatercore.
I use a Copper cored truck radiator hanging down in the basement.
I have the inlet/outlet modded to 1" threaded female copper fittings.
Through 1" tubing, my water is pumped upstairs to my computer.
It splits to 3 parallel loops, CPU, NB, and a Ford heatercore.
The heatercore has a blower on it recirculating the case air, keeping the rest of the system ~55F (summer temps) and avoiding condensation with that cool water.
The problem with just converting a car rad to little sizes like 1/2" ID is that the rad is designed for much higher flow rates. The normal little pumps and tube sizes would make water just crawl through it, and you'd never see what the rad is really capable of.
For the most useful performance, you want a big pump (I use a Quiet One 3000 with 1" outlets) and big tubing. Then you can run parallel loops at the computer without noticeable loss there either.
If you're gonna use a little pump like a D5 etc.., then stick to a small rad. They fit hand and glove.
WonderingSoul
07-15-07, 06:37 PM
I use a Copper cored truck radiator hanging down in the basement.
I have the inlet/outlet modded to 1" threaded female copper fittings.
Through 1" tubing, my water is pumped upstairs to my computer.
It splits to 3 parallel loops, CPU, NB, and a Ford heatercore.
The heatercore has a blower on it recirculating the case air, keeping the rest of the system ~55F (summer temps) and avoiding condensation with that cool water.
The problem with just converting a car rad to little sizes like 1/2" ID is that the rad is designed for much higher flow rates. The normal little pumps and tube sizes would make water just crawl through it, and you'd never see what the rad is really capable of.
For the most useful performance, you want a big pump (I use a Quiet One 3000 with 1" outlets) and big tubing. Then you can run parallel loops at the computer without noticeable loss there either.
If you're gonna use a little pump like a D5 etc.., then stick to a small rad. They fit hand and glove.
I think we need pics Diggrr :D
Sam, I think the main reason more people don't use car rads is that they're huge. They're also mostly aluminum these days, and many are too restrictive for the fans we use. But there are some out there that would make good PC rads if you don't mind that your rad is as big as the rest of your computer.
It splits to 3 parallel loops, CPU, NB, and a Ford heatercore.
The heatercore has a blower on it recirculating the case air, keeping the rest of the system ~55F (summer temps) and avoiding condensation with that cool water.
Now that's an interesting idea. How exactly does it prevent condensation? Are you using it to warm the coolant or reduce the humidity of the air... or what?
freakdiablo
07-16-07, 03:04 AM
I think that people don't use them because of the restriction it would add.
what kind of restristions does it add?
freakdiablo
07-16-07, 03:35 AM
what kind of restristions does it add?
Basically radiators have lots of bends which add restriction. bigger radiators usually have more bends, so more restriction. And by restriction I mean restricting the coolants ability to flow. In a car this is ok since the pump is usually the car engine, but not good for the smaller electric pumps usually found in WC setups.
Now that's an interesting idea. How exactly does it prevent condensation? Are you using it to warm the coolant or reduce the humidity of the air... or what?
It's a sealed case I made of foam panels and fiberglass.
If you bring case air temp within a few degrees of the water temp, you'll never get condensation, no matter what your water temp is. The only weak point is the IO plate on the mobo tray, but I've never seen it form there.
The CD's and psu stay at room temp to prevent exhausting the cooled air or drive speed problems.
@ freakdiablo, the rad is built exactly like a black ice, but on a much larger scale, and with less restriction than theirs because of the size.
Pelikan and I came up with the same idea at the same time he as building his ground loop cooling....I guess ages ago in forum time. :)
http://home.wmis.net/~jberg/RadRad1.JPG
http://home.wmis.net/~jberg/RadRad2.JPG
http://home.wmis.net/~jberg/FurtherFront.jpg
Basically radiators have lots of bends which add restriction. bigger radiators usually have more bends, so more restriction. And by restriction I mean restricting the coolants ability to flow. In a car this is ok since the pump is usually the car engine, but not good for the smaller electric pumps usually found in WC setups.
ok...so a pretty powerful pump is needed then....what kind of spec?
It's a sealed case I made of foam panels and fiberglass.
http://home.wmis.net/~jberg/RadRad1.JPG
http://home.wmis.net/~jberg/RadRad2.JPG
http://home.wmis.net/~jberg/FurtherFront.jpg
...nice....
Nebulous
07-16-07, 07:22 AM
ok...so a pretty powerful pump is needed then....what kind of spec?
If you're going with a reg. car rad, you'll have to minimize the fittings to fit 1/2", then I suggest something along the lines of an Iwaki MD series pump. They run on household current (110-120v AC) Depending on how much footage of tubing the waterflow needs to travel, you'll have to calculate that upon your needs.
http://www.iwakiamerica.com/nav/cm.aspx?cmid=34
If you're going with a reg. car rad, you'll have to minimize the fittings to fit 1/2", then I suggest something along the lines of an Iwaki MD series pump. They run on household current (110-120v AC) Depending on how much footage of tubing the waterflow needs to travel, you'll have to calculate that upon your needs.
http://www.iwakiamerica.com/nav/cm.aspx?cmid=34
nice...a proper hardcore pump then.
freakdiablo
07-16-07, 07:30 AM
nice...a proper hardcore pump then.
Ya, gives you an excuse to get a big pump right?
Ya, gives you an excuse to get a big pump right?
certainly does lol.:D:D:D:D
QuietIce
07-16-07, 07:58 AM
This is a thread I was following last year - it might interest you :)
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=429836
http://www.surfinchemical.com/Zenjirou/upright.jpg
IMO - you really don't need a hardcore pump. A good pump like the MCP355+top or the MCP655 should do fine. Compared to what we run our water through most of the time a car rad is like a storm drain - lots of room for flow. Sure the water will move through it rather slowly because of the size but that's not a problem as long as it's moving 1-1.5 GPM. That car rad probably holds close to a gallon of water so it would take 40-60 sec for water to run through it - but who cares if you're replacing it with water that has been IN the rad for 40-60 sec bleeding off heat?
However, I do think a car rad is waaay overkill for a single rig. Dual heater cores are just as good, a lot cheaper, and are easier to work with. On the other hand the pic above does have a certain amount of WOW! to it ... :D
Nebulous
07-16-07, 08:23 AM
LOL, yeah QI, I remember that a while back ;)
gangaskan
07-16-07, 08:24 AM
if you really want something close to a radiator i would suggest
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=200&products_id=21622
thats as about as car radiator as you're going to get in a pc style environment regardless i would think a iwaki or something similar would be needed to push it to its peak performance.
QuietIce, While it's true you're still moving a gallon or more per minute, don't forget what's been hashed out here so many times before....water speed through the rad is as important to heat exchange as it is in the waterblock.
Speed is the key to beating laminar flow, and getting those warm molecules of water to collide with radiator's metal surfaces in order to give up that heat.
Yes, it should work fairly well at a slow leisurely pace, but who here settles for working well when so much more is available?
Bigger AC pumps are often even cheaper than D5's, and at <50 watts (for the careful shopper), there's little penalty in added pump heat.
There is certainly one glaring down-side though...now that I've had this system for two years or so, it's getting boring not having anything to tinker with on it. What could I improve?
Even the gains from a newer faster water block are disappointing because with water this chilly, any block I use gives about the same result. For instance, my old Gemini Spiral is only 1C warmer than my Swifty 6000 at load, and I know a "normal" system would see a much greater gain.
so a kick ass pump is still in the workings?....nice
and a heater core could be a gd idea...if i can find a cheapo on on ebay.
BTW me talking about buying this stuff is for the future...in a gd few weeks cos atm im case modding for more fans and better air cooling...then i will move into water....im trying to learn as much as i can about each.
RollingThunder
07-16-07, 05:06 PM
QI,
This is still priceless!
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?p=4791444#post4791444
I check it out all the time! :clap:
XeonStrikeForce
07-16-07, 10:20 PM
Basically radiators have lots of bends which add restriction. bigger radiators usually have more bends, so more restriction. And by restriction I mean restricting the coolants ability to flow. In a car this is ok since the pump is usually the car engine, but not good for the smaller electric pumps usually found in WC setups.
You really haven't worked on car rads befor have you?
Series parallel channels, just looking at them will move water.
I use AC copper rad. it's 1/2 so i don't have to mod. I cut the rad into 2 pieces coz it's kind of too big.. summer time spend sometimes on the street or dumpsters you'll find some dead AC. if you use AC rad you don't need fans coz it's overkill
sadly i dont live in the US and hardly anyone has AC in the UK so that not really an option...i guess ill be looking on ebay for car heater cores and rads.
QuietIce
07-17-07, 09:23 AM
There's got to be a good, cheap option for a heater core in England just like there is here. The core most recommended (the 2-302) is $20 at the local parts shop in the US and is used on a wide variety of cars. I'm sure England (Europe) has a similar core if you can just find it.
If you can't find a cheap core, radiators may be comparable in price over there. If it weren't for that one cheap core (that I know of) a rad would be cheaper than multiple cores here. Most cores run $40-50 - a couple of those and you may as well buy a full rad ...
if i search 2-302 on ebay i get nothing and if i search heater core i get 3 results lol...i think a full on rad may have to be the chioce.
JamesXP
07-17-07, 09:56 AM
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VAUXHALL-VECTRA-HEATER-MATRIX-EXCHANGE-HEATER-CORE_W0QQitemZ290137597042QQihZ019QQcategoryZ10404 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
2.50 anyone?
QuietIce
07-17-07, 10:09 AM
if i search 2-302 on ebay i get nothing and if i search heater core i get 3 results lol...i think a full on rad may have to be the choice. After doing a little looking you may be right.
Just for grins I called one of the companies over here that ships to Europe and they were saying ~$90 just for shipping plus $40 for the core (instead of the usual $20). :eek:
Guess the radiator is good, though. Whether you need it or not it still gives you a good excuse to get a hard-core pump ... ;)
JamesXP
07-17-07, 10:10 AM
oh,
overclockers.co.uk stocker watercooling.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VAUXHALL-VECTRA-HEATER-MATRIX-EXCHANGE-HEATER-CORE_W0QQitemZ290137597042QQihZ019QQcategoryZ10404 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
2.50 anyone?
hmmm...tempting...i think i mite bid...see what happens
there are also some pretty cheap full rads on ebay....hmmm :D:D
this could be the start to my watercooling bid lol.
QuietIce
07-17-07, 02:15 PM
hmmm...tempting...i think i mite bid...see what happens
there are also some pretty cheap full rads on ebay....hmmm :D:D
this could be the start to my watercooling bid lol. It looks like it may be aluminum (or rather aluminium ;)) - not the best thing to mix with copper in a WC loop ...
It looks like it may be aluminum (or rather aluminium ;)) - not the best thing to mix with copper in a WC loop ...
why??? what happens?
QuietIce
07-17-07, 02:31 PM
Copper and aluminum tend to create galvanic corrosion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion) - essentially they start eating each other ...
oh god....is there any way to stop it...or to avoid it??...aluminium water blocks?
QuietIce
07-17-07, 02:55 PM
You can add extra anti-freeze to your loop (10-15% pure, not pre-mixed, instead of the usual 2-5%) but anti-freeze does decrease your cooling performance. Anti-freeze is nowhere near as good a heat conductor as water, so the more you add the less heat you can transfer ...
oh gdgd....id rather it a few degrees warmer and the components work lol.
I just invested in this:
http://i3.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/aa/0b/db34_1.JPG
£6 delivered!!! bargain....and its got 1/2" fittings...so no converting needed. wooot.
what kinda of gallonage per hour should i look for on a pump for this setup as the rad is biger than usual?.....300+??
i dont need any pump names i just want a GPH rating cos most of the pumps in the US i cant get over here.
JamesXP
07-17-07, 04:35 PM
GPH isn't what you reall u need its head pressure, also OCUK has mcp350 655 and d5 for 50 but out of stock ATM.
check ebay.
what kind of head pressure do i need then?
http://www.paceproducts.co.uk/ makes custom rads. They used to have a chart with surprisingly good prices, but now their instructions on "how to use the price lists" say to call them for the price.
well iv got a rad now :D:D lol....looks like a nice site tho
QuietIce
07-17-07, 05:29 PM
what kinda of gallonage per hour should i look for on a pump for this setup as the rad is bigger than usual?.....300+??
i dont need any pump names i just want a GPH rating cos most of the pumps in the US i cant get over here. Well an MCP350 is the minimum I would use for any system. Here are the important specs for it:
Maximum Head: 10.8 ft (3.3 m)
Maximum Discharge: ~ 116 GPH (440 LPH)
Maximum Pressure: 22 PSI (1.5 BAR)
IIRC there is a European version of this pump (also called the Laing DCC3.1). It's slightly more powerful brother, the DCC3.2, is also a good choice as is the Laing D5 (either fixed speed or "Vario" version). Both DDCs have 3/8" barbs but an adapter is easy to make with 1/2" PVC and the 3/8" plastic barbs included with most water blocks. There are also custom tops (from the States or Australia) for the DDCs, which have 1/2" barbs. The D5 comes stock with 1/2" barbs. The Eheim 1250 (made in Germany) is also a good choice, it has less head but lots more flow. If you want that monster pump the Iwaki's are the best - look for 1200+ LPH and a head of 4m+.
The main thing you're looking for is reliability - the last thing you want is the pump to fail when you're not around. The Laing, Eheim, and Iwaki pumps are very reliable and why they're so often recommended ...
what kind of head pressure do i need then?
I wouldn't go below 6ft (2m). 10ft is good. More is better. Your goal is to pump about 4l/min through the system.
Keep an eye on the pump wattage, though. Most of that's going to wind up heating your loop. You should be able to find a good pump under 30w.
I know Laing's pumps are available in the UK.
D5 for performance.
DDC3.2 less noise, still a performance pump.
DDC3.1 extraordinarily quiet, but will proably get you well within 1c of the other two if you use a modified or aftermarket top.
http://systemcooling.com/mcp350_mod-01.html
http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?p=1440226
The D5 has 1/2" barbs, and the DDC's come with 3/8" barbs. You can use the DDC's with 1/2" tubing, though, if you use an adapter or modified top, or if you run 3/8" tubing to adjacent components and 1/2" in the rest of the loop.
thanks for all the graet info on pumps dudes.....might go brousing ebay this afternoon.
I still cant believe i got that rad for £6!!! lol
Well im going to use a Copper Car Rad
Its being cleaned and fittings welded right now in a car rad shop :)
Steel reinforced 1/2" ID tubing
MCP655
Apogee GT Bowed
Will be cooling just the CPU
And thats my 1st water cooling attempt
also i have another Copper Car Rad from an old soviet car :D
I really dont see how a car rad is restrictive :confused:
Well im going to use a Copper Car Rad
Its being cleaned and fittings welded right now in a car rad shop :)
Steel reinforced 1/2" ID tubing
MCP655
Apogee GT Bowed
Will be cooling just the CPU
And thats my 1st water cooling attempt
also i have another Copper Car Rad from an old soviet car :D
I really dont see how a car rad is restrictive :confused:
looks like a very nice setup....i dont think a car rad is restrictive....you just have ti have a nice pump to go with it.
I really dont see how a car rad is restrictive :confused:
It won't be on the water side. The reason for using a serious pump is that the rad is precisely the opposite. A car rad produces very little coolant restriction because the coolant path is so wide. If the coolant velocity drops low enough, laminar flow will reduce the rad's efficiency. But it would still blow the doors off a dinky little 120mm x 360mm rad.
Some car radiators are fairly restrictive to air flow, though. Your average automotive radiator fan is an F5 tornado compared to the fans most of us use, hence what's good for a car rad isn't necessarily good for a comp rad.
OTOH, the PA160's design was inspired by an old Honda clown car radiator Cathar dug up somewhere. IIRC, it was about one inch thick and had 13 or 14 fins per inch.
Finding a car rad that works well for using with a computer is not an easy task. I used a car rad for about a year, and it worked very well with no fans on it whatsoever. I just changed to a PA120.3 when I made my own custom wood case and built the PA120.3 into the case. (http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=476168)
I searched long and hard to find a good car rad. Most rads are simply huge, aluminum, and have lots of holes in them. I lucked across an MG Metro rad for I think a 1984 model or so on Ebay. It is copper core and was brand new. It is the perfect car rad to use as it had no fill cap, no trans cooler, and was perfectly sized. All I had to do was to epoxy a PVC piece to seal a temp sensor hole, and epoxy PVC elbows into the rad and then screw on some brass fittings. I had it mounted onto the side of my case.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/front2.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/rear.jpg
There is certainly one glaring down-side though...now that I've had this system for two years or so, it's getting boring not having anything to tinker with on it.
I know how you feel. Not that my current custom wood case is perfect, but I find myself a bit bored in that i don't have any major project to tinker with at present. The only thing I am doing is inlet and outlet modding a DDC top at the moment.
I know how you feel. Not that my current custom wood case is perfect, but I find myself a bit bored in that i don't have any major project to tinker with at present. The only thing I am doing is inlet and outlet modding a DDC top at the moment.
It was nice of Laing to leave you something to do, eh? :) If they'd made that pump without an inlet elbow and threaded it for your choice of barbs, you'd have to take up taxidermy or something.
It was nice of Laing to leave you something to do, eh? :) If they'd made that pump without an inlet elbow and threaded it for your choice of barbs, you'd have to take up taxidermy or something.
Taxidermy??? That's funny. :)
The idea of scraping out animal guts just doesn't sound too appealing. I've have to be way, way too bored to go that route.
The problem is that if I'm left to my own devices, I'll think of something else to build or may actually get started on a couple of undone projects that have needed to be done for some time that are not computer related.
wow.....v nice setup voigts....looks awesome....so you had no fans on it at all....did u ever try fans? did they make much diff?
well forget a radiator, that's too huge.. how about an auxiliary transmission cooler? smaller fittings... a lot more available.. nice anodized aluminum one's too.. much smaller and thinner.. so how about it?
wow.....v nice setup voigts....looks awesome....so you had no fans on it at all....did u ever try fans? did they make much diff?
I really didn't try fans as the idea with that setup was to go with no fans. I was striving to get the quietest system I could. I really doubt they would have made much of a difference though as my temps remained the same over using a BIX3 with 6 fans on it that I had previously.
Almost a year ago however I changed over to a PA120.3 for a couple of reasons. First, I got tired of trying to make a metal case do what I wanted it to do, and decided that since I like woodworking that I wanted to build my own furniture-grade computer case where I could put the rad into the case. I had a bit of extra money (which is rare) and got a steal on the PA120.3 new from Danger Den on a rare slick deals 25% off coupon for $105 shipped.
Being able to integrate the rad into the case just looks a lot better, and that is the main problem with using a car rad is that it is hard to not have it be bulky. And running 3 yates at only 4volts ea doesn't contribute to noise levels to speak of.
well forget a radiator, that's too huge.. how about an auxiliary transmission cooler? smaller fittings... a lot more available.. nice anodized aluminum one's too.. much smaller and thinner.. so how about it?
Mine is a heater core and its 180mm,50mm,250mm with 1/2" fittings....well thats what the bloke on ebay said...i havnt actualy recieved it yet.
voigts -d' u recon it will need fans?
heater core has a fan on it.. and it's a bit small. it'll act like the heater in your car i imagine. why does everyone go to ebay to buy this stuff you can get it cheaper at the pick n pull :confused:
heater core has a fan on it.. and it's a bit small. it'll act like the heater in your car i imagine. why does everyone go to ebay to buy this stuff you can get it cheaper at the pick n pull :confused:
mine doesnt come with a fan on it...i might attatch 2x120mm ones onto it if i need.
pick n pull??? i dont have one of them near me. and £6 is pretty cheap in my books.
would this be any gd for a pump????
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1750-LTR-INLINE-IMMERSIBLE-WATER-PUMP-AQUARIUM-POND_W0QQitemZ150142624472QQihZ005QQcategoryZ93636 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
QuietIce
07-19-07, 04:47 AM
The specs seem OK but I can't comment on it's reliability ...
The specs seem OK but I can't comment on it's reliability ...
ok...thanks for the advice anyway.
Mine is a heater core and its 180mm,50mm,250mm with 1/2" fittings....well thats what the bloke on ebay said...i havnt actualy recieved it yet.
voigts -d' u recon it will need fans?
Heatercores are very thick and hence will probably need some kind of airflow to work. Since you are in the UK you might be able to find an MGMetro radiator reasonably.
As for the other post about the pull-a-part, you don't want to use used radiators or cores in your watercooling loop as there is just to much of a problem with build up and gunk with parts that have been in cars. Spend a few bucks and use new parts.
well i've kind of just bought a heater core lol....how should i clean it out?..vinegar?
QuietIce
07-19-07, 04:27 PM
well i've kind of just bought a heater core lol....how should i clean it out?..vinegar? Everything you can think of! :) If it shows signs of lime build-up then Lime-Away (or something similar) would be a good start but be careful with that stuff and aluminum. Several applications are better than one long one for that. Otherwise soap and very hot water and shake vigorously, then repeat and rinse well.
IDK about the vinegar with aluminum so I'll leave that for someone else ...
ok...thanks....
btw i just bought a nb waterblock off ebay for £8.50....another bargain. yey :beer:
I was just thinking on that same subject, and come to think of it, I use vinegar to clean out my coffee brewer and that's an aluminum tube...
Just make sure you rinse it plenty well afterward with nice hot tap water. You don't want ANY of it left in your cooling loop.
There's also products meant to clean out your car's cooling system at any auto parts store. That might just be your best bet since it's been used in an auto and that's what you want removed.
I wouldn't recommend using it in your watercooling pump though.
QuietIce
07-20-07, 04:16 AM
Typically you have to get those car products up to full operating temperature (180°F+) to activate the cleaning compounds in them. Probably wouldn't work too well at room temps though I guess you could use boiling water as a substitute and shake 'em to death to simulate the speed of the car coolant. Then rinse very, very thoroughly with cold tap water.
I'd still go with soap and hot water after that followed by vinegar and warm salt water, since Diggr thinks it's OK. When you're through cleaning I'd let water run through it for a good 10-15 min - maybe even a half hour or so ...
thanks for all the great advice Digrr and QuietIce....i will try some of that stuff when i get my heater core.....hopefully it will come in the next few days.
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