Finalizing parts for build. Need your brains, mmm brains!

[PearlJammzz]

Ok so I have read a lot but still have some questions, maybe you guys can help me decide. Here is some important information and a picture of my setup to take into consideration:

Case: Lian-Li V1200Plus (http://lian-li.com/product/product06.php?pr_index=8&cl_index=1&sc_index=1&ss_index=2&type=b)
CPU: Q6600 quad-core
Other computer parts: 8800GTX, x-fi card, 2x1 gigs of ram, 2 HDD's, Enermax Infiniti 720watt PSU.

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/240/possiblev1200plussetupom0.jpg

I am ONLY planning on cooling the CPU at this point and almost for sure wont do the video card, but might do the chipset at a later point. Looking to over clock this CPU as much as I can on liquid, am hoping for 3.5-4.0ghz.

Here is what I am looking at for a build, suggestions or remarks are VERY welcome. If there is ab etter choice then what is listed, please let me know and explain why :).

CPU block:
-Fuzion: $65
-Apogee GTX: $73
Any difference in these? The price is pretty close, but the Fuzion is a universal mount :). Anything else pro's/con's for these two? Does one outperform the other? One a PITA to mount or anything?

Pump:
-MCP355-modded: ~$75 and some time
-MCP655: $75
Now from what I have heard the 355 is quieter but on Swiftech's site they state that the 655 is less audible. How do they compare in noise? and how about performance? I will be running 5x120mm fans in the system plus an 8800GTX w/ the stock cooling set at max. Is noise going to even be a factor?

Radiator:
-Swiftech MCR-220: $45
-Thermochill PA120.2: $120
There is a HUGE price difference here, but I wont mind if the PA120.2 makes a big enough difference. I know the radiator kind of depends on the fans, which you'll read below I am pretty much unsure of all together. Size may also be a factor but I think everything should fit regardless of which one I get. Thoughts? Other suggestions? Really not set in this department.

Reservoir:
-Swiftech MCRES: $20
Pretty much the setup I like and I have heard nothing but killer things about this. Any reason NOT to have it other than just having a t-line?

Tubing:
-1/2'' Tygon Silver: Expensive but worth it I believe.

Fans:
I am not really sure here. I am not sure how powerful of a one I need. I would like to keep it somewhat silent, or at least under control. No jet-engines taking off lol. Suggestions? 120mm.

[Otter]

CPU block:
-Fuzion: $65
-Apogee GTX: $73
Any difference in these? The price is pretty close, but the Fuzion is a universal mount :). Anything else pro's/con's for these two? Does one outperform the other? One a PITA to mount or anything?
These are very close in performance. It takes very rigorous testing to overcome the variation in mounts and get a clear comparison. The best testing I've seen so far on these blocks is Nikhsub's. Unfortunately for your purposes, he tested with a single-die CPU.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=151781

Now from what I have heard the 355 is quieter but on Swiftech's site they state that the 655 is less audible. How do they compare in noise? and how about performance?
Unless they've made changes to the 655, the 355 will be quieter. The 655 will probably give you a slightly better flow rate, but you're not likely to notice much difference in your temps.

I will be running 5x120mm fans in the system plus an 8800GTX w/ the stock cooling set at max. Is noise going to even be a factor?
No. With a bunch of fans running at 12V, you won't even hear the pump. The difference in noise among the three Laing pumps is probably of concern only to silencers.

Radiator:
-Swiftech MCR-220: $45
-Thermochill PA120.2: $120
There is a HUGE price difference here, but I wont mind if the PA120.2 makes a big enough difference.
Unless 10-15% is big enough, save your money. Going to a triple rad would make more of a difference (about 33%), but of course it's larger.

Fans:
I am not really sure here. I am not sure how powerful of a one I need. I would like to keep it somewhat silent, or at least under control. No jet-engines taking off lol. Suggestions? 120mm.

The Yate-Loon D12SM-12 is good choice if you're not sure how much fan you'll need. Noise is similar to the very quiet but slower D12SL-12 when run at the same RPM's, but you can rev up the medium speed fan much higher. Yate Loon makes all their fans both with and without the tach output, so if you want RPM monitoring, be sure the ones you order have it.

[PearlJammzz]

Thanks for the information :).

As for fans, do you think 2 Silverstone FM123's (http://www.petrastechshop.com/12sifmcafanw.html) would be overkill? They seem to have a VERY good CFM/dBa ratio. They aren't much louder than the D12SM-12 but pump TONS more air.

Are these fan ratings even true? Or they just blowin smoke up people's arses?

[PearlJammzz]

I found this interesting read: Seems the Fuzion might be edging out, seems to on most tests I have seen.

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/hardwarecanuck-reviews/1033-cpu-water-block-round-up-apogee-gt-gtx-vs-storm-vs-fuzion-vs-apogee-vanilla.html

[Otter]

Silverstone FM123's (http://www.petrastechshop.com/12sifmcafanw.html) would be overkill? They seem to have a VERY good CFM/dBa ratio. They aren't much louder than the D12SM-12 but pump TONS more air.

Are these fan ratings even true? Or they just blowin smoke up people's arses?
Often enough, it's the latter. But even when everyone is being honest, you can't compare sound pressure ratings from different manufacturers because they there is no standardized way to measure fan noise and unless the tests are done exactly the same, the numbers are completely useless.

If you look at these test results, you'll see why I recommend the Yate-Loons in spite of the fact that the manufacturer's SPL numbers are higher than all that arse smoke. There are plenty of other good fans, though, and some of them were included in the test.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=137832

[PearlJammzz]

Wow, that Sharkoon did awesome, how come no one ever recommends them?

That Yate does do VERY well in the low-speed fan area, but do you think that'd suffice on the radiator?

[Fushyuguru]

Fans: I'm a huge fan of SilentPCReviews Fan reviews: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article739-page1.html

I also second the Yate Loon recomendation. I also like the Scythe S-Flex fans on a controller for rad's.

[Fushyuguru]

That Yate does do VERY well in the low-speed fan area, but do you think that'd suffice on the radiator?

Depends on wether youre more satisfied with maximum performance or noise reduction. *Personal preference required* I prefer the later, and find the Yate Loons just fine (not to mention a great priced fan as well).

[Otter]

Wow, that Sharkoon did awesome, how come no one ever recommends them?

That Yate does do VERY well in the low-speed fan area, but do you think that'd suffice on the radiator?
I think it would probably be enough, but I'm not you. The Loon in the tests is the low speed version. The D12SM-12 should give you a pretty good noise/airflow ratio all the way from inaudible to slightly obnoxious. They're also very cheap, so you could afford to get something that better matches your needs once you have a clearer idea what they are.

I don't recommend the golfball fan because I've never tried it and don't know many who have. It does look good on the tests, though.

[PearlJammzz]

I have a s-flex fan and I really like the noise (I have the high speed one, f maybe?) but it feels it doesn't pull/push through a radiator (or in my case ultra 120-extreme). I may have to just buy 2-3 fans and see what I like and how they compare noise to performance wise.

Am I correct in assuming that with the thinner radiator, I will be able to use a slower speed fan effectively?

[billb]

Fans.......The blind being lead by the unknowing.

YOU don't choose the CFM rating of the fan you need, the rad chooses the CFM's it needs to do it's Job. If you don't give it the right fans it will either not cool enough or be too loud. Without doing the calculations you are guessing (or believing other peoples guesses) at what are the correct fans to use.

[PearlJammzz]

Exactly Bill, but I have no idea what calculations are needed or how to do these. Can you point me to something that will help me find how much CFM I need with the given radiator?

[Otter]

Fans.......The blind being lead by the unknowing.

YOU don't choose the CFM rating of the fan you need, the rad chooses the CFM's it needs to do it's Job. If you don't give it the right fans it will either not cool enough or be too loud. Without doing the calculations you are guessing (or believing other peoples guesses) at what are the correct fans to use.
That's very helpful, Bill. :rolleyes:

[Otter]

Exactly Bill, but I have no idea what calculations are needed or how to do these. Can you point me to something that will help me find how much CFM I need with the given radiator?

You might find this discussion useful, PearlJammzz.
http://www.comairrotron.com/engineering_notes_02.asp

Keep in mind, though, that this equation estimates the amount of air you need get through your radiator, and this will be less than the free-air CFM spec for your fan. But P-Q curves are not available for most of the fans and radiators we use, and there are approximately four gazillion variables that affect performance. Hence the experimental approach is quite reasonable when you're starting out.

[PearlJammzz]

Looks like more of a tech doc than a discussion, lol. Looks like a good read though, I'll have to look at it more in depth tomorrow when I am more awake and see what I get out of it. Thanks :).

Anyone else have any suggestions/thoughts?

[AZNBoiOnFIYA]

You might not get that much of an oc on quad if youre cooling with just a dual rad. I would go triple rad but then again you might have space issues. The other best possibility is to go with the pa120.2. As for cpu blocks, there really hasnt been much testing done on quads but I would just go with the fuzion cause I don't really believe in anything aluminum no matter how well plated it is.

[PearlJammzz]

The PA120.2 really worth the almost 2x cost? Or am I only gunna see a difference of a degree or 2?

[AZNBoiOnFIYA]

Well, if you just want to cool your q6600 then the mcr will do the job, but if youre looking for extra performance then go with the pa120. IMO its probably not worth the price difference and there arent alot of tests out concerning quad performance so it might be better off waiting, or if you cant then just get the mcr and be over with it. If its possible to fit a triple rad into that case then I would go with that over any dual rad.

[treatmentx]

i think since you're just buying in now, go with the triple rad hell, or even the quad.

Q6600 + GPU (you'll get the cooling bug one day... i did anyway). And let me tell you, my GPU temps went from 68idle to 38idle. And my CPU temp only went up by 1 or 2C (depending on time of day). And if you're doing some performance clocking, then you'll definitely need the 3 anyway... and presumbaly, you'll want to take off the water and put onto an ew system one day when you upgrade, etc etc. go with 3! =)

[Otter]

The PA120.2 really worth the almost 2x cost? Or am I only gunna see a difference of a degree or 2?
There are many variables, but that's a reasonable guestimate. Depending on your load and the fans you use, you might not even get 1C. With quiet fans, the PA will take 10-15% off your coolant to air temp differential. To see a 3C improvement, the coolant in the MCR would have to be at least 20C over ambient, and that's not going to happen cooling just the CPU unless you don't use fans or your cat falls asleep on the rad.

[PearlJammzz]

3 has crossed my mind, but where to put it is a big question...3x120 is a pretty big radiator lol. Any suggestions? Some things to keep in ming:

1. I don't want anything external
2. My case modding skills are slim to none, mounting this on the bottom and cutting it out will be my first adventure into the art.
3. It must look clean and efficient.

Thanks Otter, I wont spend the 2.5x the money for the PA :).

[Otter]

Looking at the picture and the external dimensions from Lian-Li, I think you might just bareley have enough room for an MCR-320 in the floor. This rad is only 16" long, a PSU is about 6" long, and your case is 24.6" long. That leaves you a couple inches for minor details like the walls and that protuberance next to the PSU.

You might have to remove the front fan, but that's okay. That vent will be a very direct intake or exhaust for the rad, hence you don't really need a fan on it. Have the other two fans blow the opposite of the rad. For example, if the rad blows in, have both case fans blow out.

The pump can either be mounted on the shelf in front of the MOBO or be suspended from the drive cage or shelf. You could even cut a hole in the self and suspend it so that part of the pump is on each level. Yes it's best to have the pump at the bottom, but a few inches won't matter that much, and you could always go with a long T or res filler line to increase the depth.

I'm just throwing out an idea here, so measure carefully before you commit to this plan. I didn't!

Oh, and btw, while I was looking at the pic I noticed you're going from res to rad to pump. Res to pump to rad would help you keep air out of the pump and take about .05C off your CPU temp.

[PearlJammzz]

Very nice, I'll have to do some measurements VERY carefully and see if that could work.

Sorry for the crappy MS paint drawing but the way I have it setup is res>pump>rad>cpu>res>pump>etc. Thatnkls for the suggestion, I just picked it and really had no idea there was a benefit, lol.

I figure I'll buy the case, and then make my measurements, I agree that it will be VERY close if it'll work or not so I wouldn't wanna buy it to end up short.

So about the pump issue, can you mount it upside down just fine? Would there be any sort of a drawback (hard to get to something, bad flow, etc) to doing that?

[billb]

Exactly Bill, but I have no idea what calculations are needed or how to do these. Can you point me to something that will help me find how much CFM I need with the given radiator?I'm neither going to wade through this stuff to quote the exact data you need, nor do the calculations for you, but everything you need is here or on the manufacturer's site for the particular piece of equipment you need info about.
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=12581&highlight=optimal+120
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.cooling-masters.com/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dcooling-masters.com%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG
http://thermal-management-testing.com/
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=77260
http://www.procooling.com/index.php?func=articles&disp=131
http://www.procooling.com/index.php?func=articles&disp=38&pg=1
http://www.mouser.com/catalog/622/1316.pdf
http://users.erols.com/chare/elec.htm
http://overclockers.com/articles1155/
http://overclockers.com/articles1088/
http://www.delta.com.tw/product/cp/dcfans/dcfans_main.asp

[Moto7451]

Fans.......The blind being lead by the unknowing.

YOU don't choose the CFM rating of the fan you need, the rad chooses the CFM's it needs to do it's Job. If you don't give it the right fans it will either not cool enough or be too loud. Without doing the calculations you are guessing (or believing other peoples guesses) at what are the correct fans to use.

After reading this I feel like we should be drinking tea and reading voltare & nietzsche, not overclocking :D.

What it really boils down to is having enough pressure to push air through your fan. Buying new fans with twice the pressure of my old Masscool fans (I now have some of those nice 38mm triblade deltas :)) lowered my temps another two degrees. An $8 upgrade that kicked butt. If you're concerned about noise, just get a PWM.

Also another point to make is that the thicker the fan (i.e. 25mm, 32mm, 38mm) and the higher the pitch of the fan blades, the more pressure the fan will make. To this effect, at the same or similar CFM the thicker, higher blade pitch fan will perform better than the thinner fan. The tradeoff is that these fans are usually slightly louder, partially because of how the blades cut through the air and partially because of the increase in flow.

[PearlJammzz]

How do fan shrouds help? They needed really?

[billb]

How do fan shrouds help? They needed really?Yes they work. especially in a push configuration. Here's why...

[PearlJammzz]

Ok ya, that makes sense. I will be pulling I think on all 3 (pretty sure) so is the difference pretty small? Or am I looking at several degrees C difference?

[Otter]

So about the pump issue, can you mount it upside down just fine? Would there be any sort of a drawback (hard to get to something, bad flow, etc) to doing that?
Yes, you can mount the pump upside down, sideways, or on the diagonal of your choice. Keep in mind, though, that you must get the air out of the pump before you start it. Centrifugal water pumps will not pump air or prime themselves. If there's air in the pump when you start it, the pump may not be able to clear it, and the Laing pumps you are looking at will quickly trash their bearings if run dry. So however you mount the pump, be sure to turn it (or the entire case) so that any air trapped in the impeller chamber can find its way out.

[billb]

Ok ya, that makes sense. I will be pulling I think on all 3 (pretty sure) so is the difference pretty small? Or am I looking at several degrees C difference?No, probably less than a degree in a pull setup.

[PearlJammzz]

Very nice, this is great info guys, I prob. wouldn't of remembered to get the air out of the pump! Here is what I have decided on:

CPU block: Apogee GTX - $73
Pump: MCP655 - $75
Radiator: Swiftech MCR-320 - $55
Reservoir: Swiftech MCRES - $20
Tubing: 1/2'' Tygon Silver - amount TBD
Fans: 3x Yate Loon D12SM-12 and 3xD12SH-12 $36 - will test performance/noise of each.

The loop will be res->pump->rad->cpu->res, etc. The rad will be a 3x120mm (if it will fit, if not, 2x120mm) using 3 fans in a pull setup with no shroud. The rad will be mounted on the bottom with some fan grilles once I get sorted how to cut up the case and whatnot. I will be using pure distilled water, no additives. Total cost will be ~300

[Otter]

I will be using pure distilled water, no additives.
Will the res get any light?

[PearlJammzz]

The case wont have a window, so not really. Only when testing the loop/spraying the inside of the case, adding/removing parts, etc. Is that really going to matter much?

[Otter]

The case wont have a window, so not really. Only when testing the loop/spraying the inside of the case, adding/removing parts, etc. Is that really going to matter much?
Probably not. But if you want to make sure, a few drops of iodine and algaecide won't affect your performance at all.

[PearlJammzz]

Awesome, thank you.