View Full Version : 2900XT user feeling gloomy
I've had my 2900XT since the date of conception and was very happy with it in DX9 games. It's very fast and has the quality that I wanted with the resolution and quality turned up. I am no longer perfectly happy and need some advice about 8800's. It's with these very recent DX10 type benchmarks that I am starting to be a little... ****ed off to be honest.
I just ran knights of the sea DX10 demo and got 20.5FPS. The game graphics didn't look that great and I was unable to run the test with AA on without running like a slideshow.
On high settings, with no AA in 1680x1050, I got 20.5fps with a minimum at 5.
On the call of juarez benchmark, I think I had similar disturbing results, but I ran it at 4xAA instead of 0 so it looked a lot better (except for the trees appeared to have straight lines like a fence instead of looking like leaves).
Anyway, I am not very happy with the image quality and speed I am getting. I have been a GF4 user, 9800Pro user, x800, 7800, 1800xt, 1900xt, 1950xtx, and whenever I have been unhappy with the image quality I have used what is best. I had great luck with the x1xx series so I had no worries about the 2900xt until now.
Here are my questions:
Based on the rig in my signature, will I notice a significant increase in performance if I upgraded to an 8800gtx or 8800ultra?
Will I notice better image quality in Dx10 games without suffering performance at the resolution I use?
Is it ok to buy a new card now, or does Nvidia have something openly being released soon?
How is driver support on Vista 32bit and Vista 64bit now? I have been very happy with the ATI driver support so far on this OS, other than the image quality of course.
What else should I know from anyone that has made the switch?
Also, my 2900XT heatsink/fan is way too loud. How do the 8800gtx/ultra SOUND when they are being used in 3d programs? Are they as loud, close to as loud, and are there other cooling options that are widely available for air cooling on these cards? (the 2900xt is pretty limited, generally the current cooler does the best job)
Last but most important: is it worth the money to change from 2900XT to 8800GTX? I will be losing money selling my 2900XT used and almost be paying at least half price for a new card.
Any suggestions or help would be appreciated, I don't want to just jump in on this because it's not a simple switch from a 1900xt or something. I already do have a top end card, just not quite as satisfied as I wish I could be. :o
Wayward_Son
09-30-07, 03:03 PM
I can't answer most of your questions as I have no experience with any ATI products. I can say, however, that the fan on my 8800GTS is inaudible in my experience so far. When my computer POSTs, the fan spins up to 100% and then back down, and it IS loud. However, it is not bearing noise; rather, it is the sound of rushing air. The flip side of that is I have yet to reach a point in 3D gaming where the fan ever spins up fast enough for me to hear it. If I turned off my speakers and turned off all my case fans, then MAYBE I could hear it while gaming, but I don't see the point. My XFX runs quietly and apparently stays well within it's heat limits.
ViperJohn
09-30-07, 04:27 PM
I've had my 2900XT since the date of conception and was very happy with it in DX9 games. It's very fast and has the quality that I wanted with the resolution and quality turned up. I am no longer perfectly happy and need some advice about 8800's. It's with these very recent DX10 type benchmarks that I am starting to be a little... ****ed off to be honest.
I just ran knights of the sea DX10 demo and got 20.5FPS. The game graphics didn't look that great and I was unable to run the test with AA on without running like a slideshow.
On high settings, with no AA in 1680x1050, I got 20.5fps with a minimum at 5.
On the call of juarez benchmark, I think I had similar disturbing results, but I ran it at 4xAA instead of 0 so it looked a lot better (except for the trees appeared to have straight lines like a fence instead of looking like leaves).
Anyway, I am not very happy with the image quality and speed I am getting. I have been a GF4 user, 9800Pro user, x800, 7800, 1800xt, 1900xt, 1950xtx, and whenever I have been unhappy with the image quality I have used what is best. I had great luck with the x1xx series so I had no worries about the 2900xt until now.
Here are my questions:
Based on the rig in my signature, will I notice a significant increase in performance if I upgraded to an 8800gtx or 8800ultra?
Will I notice better image quality in Dx10 games without suffering performance at the resolution I use?
Is it ok to buy a new card now, or does Nvidia have something openly being released soon?
How is driver support on Vista 32bit and Vista 64bit now? I have been very happy with the ATI driver support so far on this OS, other than the image quality of course.
What else should I know from anyone that has made the switch?
Also, my 2900XT heatsink/fan is way too loud. How do the 8800gtx/ultra SOUND when they are being used in 3d programs? Are they as loud, close to as loud, and are there other cooling options that are widely available for air cooling on these cards? (the 2900xt is pretty limited, generally the current cooler does the best job)
Last but most important: is it worth the money to change from 2900XT to 8800GTX? I will be losing money selling my 2900XT used and almost be paying at least half price for a new card.
Any suggestions or help would be appreciated, I don't want to just jump in on this because it's not a simple switch from a 1900xt or something. I already do have a top end card, just not quite as satisfied as I wish I could be. :o
There is a Cat 7.9 HotFix out for the Knights of the Sea DX10 demo that should improve the 2900XT's performance in it. That will not solve the root issue with the 2900's when running AA and in DX10 applications apps/games/demos though.
The issue is the 2900's just do not have the ASIC design for thrilling performance when you start dialing in AA dialed and DX10 where they really struggle. Dial in the AA in a DX10 App/Game/Demo and they can just fall flat on their face.
A 8800GTX is a definite improvement over a 2900XT when it comes to DX10 but an Ultra is really the way to go as they will OC a hell of a lot better, especially on the shaders and memory.
When it come to the 2900's IQ ATI really lost the crown of King of the Image Quality to the 8800's in a complete flip/flop from the previous cards. 8800's have noticeably better IQ in games and in DX10. The difference in CoJ DX10 between a 2900XT and an 8800GTX/Ultra is VERY noticeable to my eyes.
Viper
Any opinion on the fan noise viper? I know you generally have water cooled versions, but have you heard both fans? Also how is the Vista driver support currently on the Nvidia cards?
Also, the MSI ultra is cheaper.. and clocked higher than the evga ultra, by what appears to be a pretty significant amount (40 on the core) for stock.
Evga: $599.99 after rebate - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130090
MSI: $574 after rebate - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127288
Which of the two would you choose? A hardOCP article comparing the MSI 8800 Ultra OC pretty much showed only a 5-10% increase in framerates over the 8800GTX. Why does it make sense to purchase the Ultra, which has the same technology, just refined, than the 8800 for almost $100 less?
El<(')>Maxi
09-30-07, 06:12 PM
I'd wait for the new cards, it's not that big of a difference unless your game play is effected. The GTX/Ultra does run quiter under extended loads but imo ATI still has the upper hand in IQ...at least in the games I play.
I say goto vista 32, unless you NEED x64, I say keep the card, "looks like you never happy with what you have, judging by what you've recently had" hell.... go crossfiew if you really need to, use
THIS----->>>>http://www.frozencpu.com/products/6348/cpu-tri-47/Thermalright_HR-03_R600_6-Heatpipe_VGA_Cooler_ATI_HD-2900XT_512MB_and_1GB.html
to stay cool and quite.
I say goto vista 32, unless you NEED x64, I say keep the card, "looks like you never happy with what you have, judging by what you've recently had" hell.... go crossfiew if you really need to, use
THIS----->>>>http://www.frozencpu.com/products/6348/cpu-tri-47/Thermalright_HR-03_R600_6-Heatpipe_VGA_Cooler_ATI_HD-2900XT_512MB_and_1GB.html
to stay cool and quite.
I never am happy, you are right. Most recently I tried to do the DX10 demos and I was very mad with the quality. Knights of the Sea has horrible quality ( in my opinion), Lost Planet DX10 doesn't even work for me, and I had nothing but lag in Call of Juarez with really long load times.
Is this because of the 2900XT card, or the immaturity of DX10. That's all I really want to know. If the 8800 truely has a better looking picture in DX10 then I have no qualms upgrading.
The sound is also very aggrivating, my fan speed kicks up to 50-75% within minutes into a game and it's so loud, even with headphones. That cooler you linked, would it need some time of fan? It's out of stock, plus FrozenCPU has the worst outright customer service I have ever dealt with so I will not be purchasing from them.
ViperJohn
09-30-07, 06:36 PM
I'd wait for the new cards, it's not that big of a difference unless your game play is effected. The GTX/Ultra does run quiter under extended loads but imo ATI still has the upper hand in IQ...at least in the games I play.
You need to clean your glasses lol.
Viper
g14novak
09-30-07, 06:46 PM
I think this page will answer all your IQ questions. ;)
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTM4NCw3LCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==
Basically, their is no IQ difference, but i'd still take the 8800 over the 2900 because it has proven better performance on any benchmark you read about it.
ViperJohn
09-30-07, 06:51 PM
Any opinion on the fan noise viper? I know you generally have water cooled versions, but have you heard both fans? Also how is the Vista driver support currently on the Nvidia cards?
Also, the MSI ultra is cheaper.. and clocked higher than the evga ultra, by what appears to be a pretty significant amount (40 on the core) for stock.
Evga: $599.99 after rebate - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130090
MSI: $574 after rebate - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127288
Which of the two would you choose? A hardOCP article comparing the MSI 8800 Ultra OC pretty much showed only a 5-10% increase in framerates over the 8800GTX. Why does it make sense to purchase the Ultra, which has the same technology, just refined, than the 8800 for almost $100 less?
The MSI's have done very well here. The true running clocks out of the box are 648x1512/1152. Since
both cards are actually built by Flextronics in China and get the same exact parts (so you luck in the draw is
the same either way) It really comes down to warranty and RMA if ever needed. MSI can be a bit slow
compared to eVGA should you ever need to RMA for some reason.
Refined is putting it mildly. While they share the same ASIC design the Ultras get G80-450-A3 cores where
the GTX's get G80-300-A2 cores. They are made in different fab processes and the -450-A3 will typically
clock higher on the core ROP clock and far higher on both the core Shader and Memory. The 450-A3's
have much improved memory controllers too. The Ultra's are just sweeter cards than GTX's and that is not
subjective. If you have had both, several of both in my case, you soon find the Ultra's simply feel better,
smoother, etc. Not really sure how to describe it better than that but it is noticeable especially when you
jump from one to the other and back a few times. The Ultra is worth the extra $100 (actually I think it is closer
to $75) IMO.
Viper
They both look like crap on CoJ! Are there other posts with different games comparing the two?
Unfortunately this test doesn't show the FPS difference between the ultra and the 2900XT while in DX10 with 4XAA (which shows the best looking game).
ViperJohn
09-30-07, 06:57 PM
I think this page will answer all your IQ questions. ;)
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTM4NCw3LCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==
Basically, their is no IQ difference, but i'd still take the 8800 over the 2900 because it has proven better performance on any benchmark you read about it.
Whoever did that "review" needs new glasses too. The 88" look a heck of a lot better in CoJ DX10 than 2900's when you are actually playing. That may simply be due to the higher frame rates of the former and that doesn't show up in screen captures.
Viper
ViperJohn
09-30-07, 06:59 PM
They both look like crap on CoJ! Are there other posts with different games comparing the two?
Unfortunately this test doesn't show the FPS difference between the ultra and the 2900XT while in DX10 with 4XAA (which shows the best looking game).
CoJ DX9 and DX10 looks good here on GTX's and Ultra's and definately better than 2900's do here.
Viper
ViperJohn
09-30-07, 07:00 PM
I'd wait for the new cards, it's not that big of a difference unless your game play is effected. The GTX/Ultra does run quiter under extended loads but imo ATI still has the upper hand in IQ...at least in the games I play.
You may be waiting a long time lol.
Viper
That's just the thing, my gameplay ISaffected. I'm just trying to decide if it's worth the 300 bucks extra.
Call of Jaurez trees in DX10 look like total trash to me. Almost like... fences and lines. I will take a screenshot for you and show you what I see.
For the best looking picture, see the full size version, click on the picture and then click on the link below the picture that says "Get Original Photo" this will link you to the changing hotlink of the 1680x1050 version.
http://images28.fotki.com/v1033/photos/8/873576/5233857/jaurez10-vi.jpg (http://public.fotki.com/vixro/gaming-screenshots/random/jaurez10.html)
The game looked great under
2048x2048 shadow
Shadow quality medium
1680x1050
4xAA
no supersampling
Except for the trees and bushes literally looked like spray paint (used on older version of M3 Paint) and did not look realistic whatsoever.
Not to mention check out my AWESOME RESULTS:
Min: 5.8
Max 30.9
Average: 12.2
It was like watching a slideshow, are you kidding me?
Don't even get me started on PT Boats KNights of the Sea.
That game looks like somebody created the best looking water and gun shot lighting ever and forgot about everything else in the game. The hills look like DX7 texturing with huge contrast and anti aliasing doesn't even work for me without making the benchmark take over a half an hour.
Like I stated before, is it just me, is it just DX10, or does the 2900xt just not do what it's supposed to do in DX10?
El<(')>Maxi
09-30-07, 07:52 PM
Run an 06 and post the compare URL @ High Performance driver settings.
Run an 06 and post the compare URL @ High Performance driver settings.
10790
I tried uploading but it lagged out on me (froze). It has been a long time since I've been on a router behind NAT networking, do I need to forward any ports to upload on 3dmark?
It worked this time, must have been down. The new ORB has a strange feel to it and I don't like it, but here is the published version:
http://service.futuremark.com/compare?3dm06=3221565
El<(')>Maxi
09-30-07, 09:04 PM
The new ORB is waay faster, especially searching ;) Port 80 is all you need.
OK first off what drivers are those?
El<(')>Maxi
09-30-07, 09:19 PM
First impressions is your cpu score is lower than it should be by around 600 points, might be because of Vista. Are you running AI Advanced?
AI Advanced is on, my CPU score has always been that speed (ever since I've had Conroe even on XP), it's 3.2ghz on Vista 64bit.
Cat 7.9
What does this have to do with my DX10 results and how crappy it looks?
Even if I did get better framerates, it's not going to make Call of Jaurez not look like it has screen door leaves or make Knights of the Sea have snow that doesn't look like Directx 7 textures, or make Lost Planet snow not look like White Paint bucket with huge contrast.
I don't know how you're getting poor IQ in Juarez, the game looks damn good in DirectX 9 and 10.
I've run it on my 8800GTS and a 2900XT and the IQ looked the same to me in D3D_9, in DirectX 10, the 8800's graphics looked pretty much the same, and the 2900XT did look better, but it was artifacting, but it looked to be from bad drivers.
As for the performance drop suffered between DirectX 9 to 10, about %30 for the GTS and %50 for the 2900. :shrug: Pretty bad for a theoretically more efficient D3D.
I did all of this a few months ago, so I'm shure things have changed.
As for Knights, GG to the devs.
Something is horribly wrong if you're getting lower IQ in DirectX 10.
El<(')>Maxi
09-30-07, 09:54 PM
ORB says 3600MHz, your really @ 3200?
Hey just trying to help :beer:
yes, I am really at 3.2ghz, I do appreciate the help.
I am just trying to figure out if it's just me or the card, which is what you're helping me do.
The more I talk about it, the more I want to hit "add to cart" and instead of reselling the card I want to stomp on it. Over
and over
and over
and then set it on fire.
I am just trying to figure out if it's just me or the card, which is what you're helping me do. Well it must be you because I've instructed plenty of people who are completely computer illiterate on how to put 2900XTs in their computer without any problems. :burn:
Ha ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- . -
Subtotal $989.96
Tax $0.00
Shipping $28.01
Order Total $1,017.97
evga 8800 ultra
q6600 quad
bioshock
gw:en
overnight shipping
:mad: WHO'S THE ----- NOW 2900XT :mad:
:temper:
I shall share the results when it all arrives.
White_Pawn
09-30-07, 11:02 PM
u really jumped the gun.
That was pretty fast. :santa:
El<(')>Maxi
09-30-07, 11:19 PM
LOL when all else fails kill the problem with new hardware, I do it all the time :beer:
Make sure to record the 2900 destruction session, we need to see it :D
Wow you really loose hope on things pretty fast...
Did you even overclock that 2900XT?
Did you just buy an 8800U just to play a demo?
I dont really see much purpose in anything more then an 8800GTS right now TBH, when a game comes out that really needs more then that then something better will be out.
Can I have your 2900XT? :p
I bet I can pwn your stock 8800U with that 2900XT and a flick of the wrist.
If you do smash it, you really need less cash to burn.
Anyways, you really need to think things through and actually solve problems instead of trying to avoid them with money.
You could of got a second 2900XT and you'd end with a HUGE anount of performance over a single 8800U.
The 2900Xt, whether you reach the same speed or the same frames of the 8800 are not going to change the fact that the image quality was lacking.
That is what it all came down to. It was the fact that it failed in EVERY single DX10 test I threw at it in the quality department. Call of Jaurez had ugly trees in the background, PT Boats Knights of the Sea had ugly looking textures, bad snow, bad lighting, and no good AA. Lost Planet looked like I was playing Goldeneye 64 in the snow with the same quality of graphics, the speeds were not there, the fan noise is way too loud, the card draws more power than I want it to.
There was more than one factor and everytime I went to try to fix something, then another part just got worse. I bought for the future. If, and only if I had managed to fix the problems I had with the card... what was I supposed to do when HL2 ep2, TF2, Crysis, and other games are released. Cry and tweak some more? I bought the card to be the best, it's not the best it doesn't have even close to the performance I thought it would, so I bought something new.
It's not like the 3dmark scores were low, or my DX9 performance was lacking whatsoever. Quite the opposite, I was extremely happy in every Dx9 game that I play. The frames and quality were there, but you know what, I didn't pay money for Vista to sit in DX9 on games because my card can't handle it, did I?
This had nothing to do with having cash to burn. In fact, this decision came at the heart of an entire month of research and I only just came into the Nvidia forums to choose the right choice of change. I will be swapping down from 64bit Vista to 32bit to encounter a few less issues and starting on a fresh and clean format. I am going to make sure that I have the best and most stable overclock of my new CPU, just like I did for this current CPU. I am more than likely going to overclock the new 8800U to reach as high of speeds as I possible can. I have overclocked the 2900XT, but have not gained a huge noticable frame rate gain. Most of my FPS and 3dmark score gains came directly from tweaking with the CPU.
I have noticed these image quality problems since the inception of the card. Many I have been able to tweak or make better, or to change entirely for a different result. I was completely dismayed at the lack of DX10 support on the video card. Everywhere I searched or went pointed to the fact that I had a "2900XT" and the games were optimized for Nvidia because the 2900XT was too new. Constant responses from ATI stating that the card was not meant to be a top end enthusiast card and meant to be more of a midrange card just further enhanced the want for something different.
I am not going to actually burn the card, somebody else can do what I couldn't have and get the performance and picture that they want. Yes I did give up on this card but no I did not just glibly make the decision that it "sucked" and wanted to buy something else because I couldn't figure it out.
You could of got a second 2900XT and you'd end with a HUGE anount of performance over a single 8800U.
This needs it's own direct quote for emphasis.
I did not want my computer sounding like an airplane taking off. This was one of the MAIN reasons I changed cards, not the only reason of course, just one of the main reasons.
Adding a second card would have done the exact opposite of what I wanted, instead of decreasing sound I would have doubled it! Not to mention adding at LEAST 180watts more worth of usage at load compared to the 8800U.
Also, sorry if I seem rude or abrupt. I have been tweaking and modifying and messing with this for so long that it finally just got the best of me.
ViperJohn
10-01-07, 01:39 AM
This needs it's own direct quote for emphasis.
I did not want my computer sounding like an airplane taking off. This was one of the MAIN reasons I changed cards, not the only reason of course, just one of the main reasons.
Adding a second card would have done the exact opposite of what I wanted, instead of decreasing sound I would have doubled it! Not to mention adding at LEAST 180watts more worth of usage at load compared to the 8800U.
Also, sorry if I seem rude or abrupt. I have been tweaking and modifying and messing with this for so long that it finally just got the best of me.
Vixro I just tried the Knights of the Sea Demo with a 621/972 8800GTX with the BM set at High Quality
and 4X AA. I got 28 fps average / 36 fsp max / 17 fps min. CPU is an E660 at 3.5Ghz.
I will say one thing and that is KotS has to be one of the poorest damn demo's I have seen in years.
The texturing/shading and physics are really very poor and there isn't a card made that can make bad
code look good lol.
Viper
At least that's positive news. YOu doubled my framerate with 4xAA when I used 0xAA
Immortal_Hero
10-01-07, 07:20 AM
This needs it's own direct quote for emphasis.
I did not want my computer sounding like an airplane taking off. This was one of the MAIN reasons I changed cards, not the only reason of course, just one of the main reasons.
Adding a second card would have done the exact opposite of what I wanted, instead of decreasing sound I would have doubled it! Not to mention adding at LEAST 180watts more worth of usage at load compared to the 8800U.
Also, sorry if I seem rude or abrupt. I have been tweaking and modifying and messing with this for so long that it finally just got the best of me.
Ever hear of after market coolers? Could have cooled both cards passively for less than $150.
Seems like an even worse decision seeing that DX10.1 isn't that far off and the current card's won't support it.
ViperJohn
10-01-07, 11:51 AM
Ever hear of after market coolers? Could have cooled both cards passively for less than $150.
Seems like an even worse decision seeing that DX10.1 isn't that far off and the current card's won't support it.
Pair of passively cooled 2900XT's...not that is a laugh. You would have to underclock them so far to keep the
heat down they would crawl.
DX10.1 is a moot point. It only makes mandatory what is currently optional in DX10. You will not see a DX10
only game for at least 18 months, and probably longer, unless the game maker wants to commit suicide.
10.1 would be even longer and they will no doubt fall back to 10.0 if needed.
Viper
Immortal_Hero
10-01-07, 12:05 PM
With good case air flow I am pretty certain an HR-03 would run them passivley. Worst case you strap a quiet 92mm fan on them.
ViperJohn
10-01-07, 12:27 PM
With good case air flow I am pretty certain an HR-03 would run them passivley. Worst case you strap a quiet 92mm fan on them.
You would need a case hurricane and ya need that with a stock CF pair let alone passive as 2900XT(s)
running full rack in 3D are Thermo-Nuclear furness(s).
Per ThermalRight - NOTE: In order for HR-03/R600 to run effectively, it is strongly recommended that a
92mm fan is installed. 2900XT's running full rack in 3D are a Thermo-Nuclear furness(s).
Second problem...like that you can not run a CrossFire as there isn't enough room between the cards for
lower cards fan to breath on it's fan air intake. You also can have issues getting a card into upper the PCIe
on some MB's without interference with the MB's chipset or CPU cooler.
Also considering a 2900XT's poor DX10 performance with AA dialed in having a CF pair, in ME-II no less, is
still likely to be slower than a single, well stock OC'ed, Ultra. SLI and CF only scale about 50-60% when the
second card is added assuming you have enough system speed behind them. It is not a double for the
money or the trouble lol.
Viper
8800 ultra eVGA $560 at microcenter right now vix
http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0260398
Maverick0984
10-01-07, 12:43 PM
8800 ultra eVGA $560 at microcenter right now vix
http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0260398
Pretty darn good deal. When I bought my GTX they were going for about that price.
ViperJohn
10-01-07, 12:50 PM
8800 ultra eVGA $560 at microcenter right now vix
http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0260398
Yeah if you watch the sales/specials you can get a pretty good price on an Ultra's. They come and go
quick though. If you have been watching Ultra prices have been drifting higher for about the last 6-8
weeks. A couple of months ago you could get both the MSI and the eVGA for about $550 from NewEgg.
They have been inching up ever since.
Another place to keep an eye on is www.ClubIt.Com .They have some real good numbers sometimes.
Viper
Passively cooled 2900XT's in crossfire on the HR-03s. Where would I find the space for that, not to mention the latent heat would kick up my case temp by 5-10c if not more.
Then comes the problem of "where am I supposed to put my Auzen x-fi prelude now?
That would not work as already has been stated by viperjohn.
Vipasnipa
10-01-07, 02:31 PM
You should sell me that 2900XT. I promise I'd treat it like trash! :D
You should sell me that 2900XT. I promise I'd treat it like trash! :D
You can be sure once I have the 8800U installed and running tomorrow, the 2900XT will be in the classifieds within a few days with the retail box, cabling, and plugs.
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