Who says piracy "doesn't effect the industry"

[eye of the hawk]

I just got into a debate with someone about this, so i took them to a popular torrent search site and searched Crysis, i counted up all the leachers that i could as shown through the results on THE FIRST PAGE

just over 20,000

20,000 * $50=$1,000,000 in sales

Seems fairly significant to me :)

[PhysX]

yep.

[Jayws]

I'm not trying to defend the piracy of the game but it's much more complicated than "omg one million dollars lost". Piracy effects industry? ... duh? Look at it from the economic perspective.

I'm sure EA is writhing in pain when they've managed to sell complimentary copies in combo packs with video cards. Maybe if the price wasn't $50 a game they wouldn't have such a problem, and sure 20,000 is a big number but it's all relative to context. What if 1 million copies have been sold? I'm sure this is accounted for in the $50 price point, I can't wait to see if EA takes Crysis and repackages it oh say 5 times or so then sells the same thing (slightly tweaked of course) as they did with the BF series.

[zexmarquies01]

oh yeah, the numbers are staggering!

but then you also have to take in account, that quite alot of pirates wasn't going to buy the game to begin with. though, we don't know how many of those 20,000 were going to buy the game if they couldn't d/l it.

Not all pirates were going to buy it anyways. So the numbers arn't perfect representations of profit loss.

just playing devil's advocate here.

[eye of the hawk]

oh yeah, the numbers are staggering!

but then you also have to take in account, that quite alot of pirates wasn't going to buy the game to begin with. though, we don't know how many of those 20,000 were going to buy the game if they couldn't d/l it.

Not all pirates were going to buy it anyways. So the numbers arn't perfect representations of profit loss.

just playing devil's advocate here.

No, but 20,000 is also just the number from today from a single website off of 1 page of results through one way of stealing the game ;)

Don't get me wrong, the industry is doing fine for the most part (from what i understand), but it's not like they aren't losing money.

[eye of the hawk]

By the way, i'm guilty too as i started it, but we should all be using "affect the industry"

stealing affects the industry, the effect is a loss of money :)

[Vrykyl]

Ok, this may be cutting it close to the knuckle, BUT - here was for example the situation a 'FRIEND of mine' found themselves in.

They had crysis on preorder for quite some time, and come what may were going to buy it. They already had the demo installed, but lo and behold someone releases Crysis early onto the internet - a full retail disc image, the whole experience - before their preorder had shipped....

Why should the average thieving johnny get to enjoy the game for free before those who have paid?
So off my friend scuttles and downloads the dodgy version of crysis - plays it and loves it, and yes enjoys it like countless others before its official release date, at zero cost.

HOWEVER, come release day their full retail version comes, in its nice shiney box that they paid good money for. The dodgy version is uninstalled, saved games backed up, and the real purchased deal is installed and save games put back. Multiplayer is fired up, and off they go for the full purchased experience....

Did that piracy cost the industry anything? Nope, as they had the $$$, the customer just got a sneaky early play....like opening a pressie on christmas eve ;)

Sadly most downloaders arent like my friend, and will get things they arent ever going to buy - just stealing them.....but if they were never going to buy the game at all anyways.....nothing is lost.... gaah its a moral dilema

[eye of the hawk]

There are always going to be various cases like the above, sure. I know that. I'm not defending or critiquing anyone really. Nor am i saying anything about my own habits, and i'm sure there are a bagquadillion threads (yeah, real number...) on the topic.

I just found it kind of interesting.

[gibletzor]

Did that piracy cost the industry anything? Nope, as they had the $$$, the customer just got a sneaky early play....like opening a pressie on christmas eve ;)

Sadly most downloaders arent like my friend, and will get things they arent ever going to buy - just stealing them.....but if they were never going to buy the game at all anyways.....nothing is lost.... gaah its a moral dilema

I have to agree with Vrykyl on this one. I know it's initially wrong, but I'm guilty of this also. Being on a tight budget for college, I don't like wasting money on terrible games. I'll download a game I'm unsure about to get a sample of it to see if I want to buy it. If I enjoy it, I go buy it. Does the company lose anything? No. Is it wrong? Technically yes. But in the end, the company that makes a quality game gets their money, and I don't lose money on a game I'll play once and throw in the drawer because it sucks.

[thideras]

I just got into a debate with someone about this, so i took them to a popular torrent search site and searched Crysis, i counted up all the leachers that i could as shown through the results on THE FIRST PAGE

just over 20,000

20,000 * $50=$1,000,000 in sales

Seems fairly significant to me :)Yes, except you forgot one of the biggest things to bring that side down.

"How many of those 20,000 people would have bought the game if they could not get it online?"

My guess is not that many, so they didn't lose 1M in sales...much less than that.

What you did is called "twisting facts".

You also failed to mention how much they have made on the game already, I'm sure it is much more significant than that 1M.

[Ben333]

Let me make this point: If it is free I'll take it. Costs money? No thanks

I have 5 rigs in my room running Windows XP Pro, lets say only one is legit. I am not saying they have a pirated OS but to get myt point across this is what I am saying, If XP is there and free then lets use it. OK no piracy, so the company makes more money but now I still can't afford the product for all my rigs so one of them gets XP and the rest go to linux. What I mean is some people download things they can't pay for so it dose not mean more or less money to the company when the software is copied. On the other hand if a company pays one of the workers $1000 to buy and install windows on 10 computers and insted he pockets the money and downloads and installs for free then that IS a problem because MS just really did loose $1000. Just how I feel anyway...

[Burninate]

Keep in mind that there are many countries around the world that can't legally purchase a game that is for sale in the US/Australia/Western Europe (say..... countries in South-East Asia for example). If they're making up a sizable portion of the downloading crowd and the game is and may never be available in those countries (for various economic and possibly political reasons), what has the industry lost by those individuals downloading a game?

[eye of the hawk]

You also failed to mention how much they have made on the game already, I'm sure it is much more significant than that 1M.


Besides the point. In fact that has nothing to do with anything.

Let me make this point: If it is free I'll take it. Costs money? No thanks

I have 5 rigs in my room running Windows XP Pro, lets say only one is legit. I am not saying they have a pirated OS but to get myt point across this is what I am saying, If XP is there and free then lets use it. OK no piracy, so the company makes more money but now I still can't afford the product for all my rigs so one of them gets XP and the rest go to linux. What I mean is some people download things they can't pay for so it dose not mean more or less money to the company when the software is copied. On the other hand if a company pays one of the workers $1000 to buy and install windows on 10 computers and insted he pockets the money and downloads and installs for free then that IS a problem because MS just really did loose $1000. Just how I feel anyway...

You guys don't know much about business i see...when ya'll get older it'll all make more sense ;)

[thideras]

You guys don't know much about business i see...when ya'll get older it'll all make more sense ;)That was uncalled for. Don't ask for people's opinion on something and then dismiss it because of age. That is pretty rude.

My point still stands.

[Ben333]

Keep in mind that there are many countries around the world that can't legally purchase a game that is for sale in the US/Australia/Western Europe (say..... countries in South-East Asia for example). If they're making up a sizable portion of the downloading crowd and the game is and may never be available in those countries (for various economic and possibly political reasons), what has the industry lost by those individuals downloading a game?


Well you could argue that they could have contacted someone in the states and had them ship it to them. Because of that I almost think my reason is better :p
That was uncalled for. Don't ask for people's opinion on something and then dismiss it because of age. That is pretty rude.

Also, age is not known so he is making a pretty stupid guess.

[>HyperlogiK<]

There are a number of factors which could sway the numbers:

- Firstly, those numbers aren't necessarily from just one site, they are from just one torrent. The *.torrent and associated tracker info could be on a huge number of bit torrent indexing sites, hence the huge number of people downloading.

- As has already been stated there are likely a significant number who would never have bought the game in the first place. These aren't a drain on the publisher at all, and may inadvertently help increase the retail sales by a tiny amount when discussing the game online or with friends (free advertising).

- There are a small number of people (I often do this) who buy legit game serials from ebay (It's generally not a good idea, but there are a few reputable sellers) and then need a copy of the software, and so torrent one.

- Finally, you are assuming that each seed/leecher has only DL'd UL'd once. Often on private trackers, members who have downloaded a torrent on a previous occasion may join a re-seed of that torrent in order to boost their upload stats.

Finally, according to a recent study for the Canadian government the average casual music pirate purchases more legitimate CDs than the rest of the population. Now I'm mentioning this as a point of interest (I haven't read through it yet and am reporting it on the basis of a newspaper article), there may be problems with it and what is true for the music industry needn't necessarily apply to games. However I think it is quite plausible to suggest that a number of casual game and music pirate's pirating behaviour is very closely bound up in their legitimate purchasing behaviour and dealing with them too harshly might have unforeseen consequences.

linky:http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/site/ippd-dppi.nsf/en/h_ip01456e.html

[Burninate]

^Well you could argue that they could have contacted someone in the states and had them ship it to them. Because of that I almost think my reason is better :p

Which may still not be legal. Some games available in the US have content that may not pass censors in other countries around the world. Maybe for Drug use, violence, nudity. Take your pick. Also take into account import duties can be huge, more than likely making the game cost much more than $50 once it actually reaches Asia. That would make the cost of obtaining most games legally out of reach for most audiences, especially markets in South-East Asia with wages downwards of $1 to $2 an hour.

[thideras]

Also, age is not known so he is making a pretty stupid guess.Mine is in my profile.

[eye of the hawk]

The reason i bring up your age is because i'm guessing you've never had a product that was available to be stolen. Until you have, then i'm beginning to think you cant fully appreciate this topic.

[Ben333]

Besides the point. In fact that has nothing to do with anything.
That means they already have more than enough money to pay the programers and designers and what not.

[thideras]

The reason i bring up your age is because i'm guessing you've never had a product that was available to be stolen. Until you have, then i'm beginning to think you cant fully appreciate this topic.Actually, I did a competition for programming, won first place, I put lots of time into it. After the competition, the teacher forgot to remove it from the server. Next year, someone knew about it and used most of my source code. Same thing except change money for competition. It happens, it was my fault I didn't make sure it was out there.

So yes, I have had code stolen from me. ;)

[eye of the hawk]

That means they already have more than enough money to pay the programers and designers and what not.

:bang head

Profits. Business is about profits. Sorry if you don't like that, but the goal of business is making money, not breaking even.

[Jon]

MY point will be that if you take something that you did not pay for and that was not explicitly given to you, then it is theft.

Any of you can justify an act of piracy any way you wish, but I will still call you a thief. The originator of the software will do the same. They do not care what your intent is...if you have it without paying or having received a legal copy as a gift, then it is stolen merchandise.

By the way, I'd say the excuse of just about every thief on the planet is that they "couldn't afford it and the owner won't miss a few bucks anyway".

I should just ban our self-proclaimed piracy advocates. We won't miss a few accounts anyway...we have more. So goes the mindset.