Radeon 8500 vs Radeon 8500-oem.. whats the deal?

[Treker]

Hey guys,

I ordered a Radeon 8500-oem, and noticed only after completing my order that the oem's where actually Slower than the retail versions.. thats a lil foggy marketing to me.. I was told it was just like the retail but basicaly bare and in a white/brown box with out all the goodies (papers, cd's, ect).

Now I hear its partly cripled in speed and perhaps in other areas as well?

Hurm, almost makes me wish I would have spent a lil more for the retail..

Whats your thoughts on this?

-Trek

[kilacomp]

umm there are posts all over the internet and info at ati's site about the different cards! They are still fine cards though, what did you spend on it! Does it have any specs of the card where you bought it from!

[funnyperson1]

where did you buy it from? that can make a lot of difference some sites have good 3.6 ns fully volted ram on the 8500 some have 4ns/fully volted ram and some have 3.6 ns lpwer voltage ram......oems are normally clocked at 250/250 and retails at 275/275/....

[Treker]

I got it from newegg with fed ex shipping for 185 bucks, basicaly it had the same description as a retail radeon, just said something about 'white box' oem, ect.

-Trek

[-Exi|e-]

OEM = the same as the retail card except for the core/memory speeds, you get all the features and all but with slower speeds. If its a card made by ATi you'll probly have 3.6ns memory but if its a third party card, you might have 4ns RAM. When you buy OEM products, you get what you pay for.

[Silversinksam]

Trekker,
I feel for you bro, but Newegg is definitly not at fault as they are one of the few vendors that specificly tells you that thier OEM white box has a 230 core(BUT depending on when you ordered it, I am told they changed thier item description, so you may be able to return it with no restocking charge.....key word is may


This is thier item description:


ATI RADEON 8500 LE 64MB DDR - OEM/White Box Powered by the revolutionary RADEON™ 8500 world’s fastest and most advanced graphics processing unit (GPU) Features ATI's TRUFORM. SMARTSHADER SMOOTHVISION™, and HYPER Z II technologies The only GPU to support DirectX® 8.1 Supports OpenGL® 1.3 features 64MB of (DDR) memory Dual monitor and Video output support Industry-leading DVD video playback w/tv cable only - Core: 230 MHz, NO DVI to VGA Adaptor! Fedex Saver Shipping $6.00


What that add doesnt mention is that most likely you got 4ns ram to boot.


I would return it and get this as it appears to be a 250/250 OEM version possibly with 3.6ns ram



$129 8500 (http://forums.overclockers.ws/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53855)



I have been saying avoid the Newegg OEM Radeon 8500 on several threads. :( But even so if you decide to keep it its still a nice card :)

[Silversinksam]

Originally posted by -Exi|e-
When you buy OEM products, you get what you pay for.


Exi|e, I dont agree I bought an OEM Radeon 8500 (http://www.overclockers.com/tips757) and its just as fast as a retail 8500 or possibly faster.

Another example is CPU's, Since most of us void the warranty in the first 5 minutes installing better heatsinks on Cpu's whats the point in buying retail if the OEM is exactly the same minus the warranty that is useless if you are honest.

[-Exi|e-]

I agree with you Silversinksam, i too bought my cpu as an oem but i dont think you can compare cpus and graphic cards. A cpu will never come underclocked because third party cpus dont exist (yet?) I did void the warranty on my cpu about 10mins after installation:). I did read your other threads and you have a good card, thats great but i do stand by my point, that oem is cheaper than retail because it is made cheaper (with some exceptions) but that doesnt mean you wont have as good a product as a retail version but i do try to stay away from oem products as much as possible.

[Silversinksam]

Exi|e-,

I definitly agree with you that the OEM situation with the Radeon 8500's is confusing the cr@p out of alot of people.

Poor guys like Treker imho were under the impression that the OEM was the same like a cpu OEM>retail

If I didnt already have my Radeon 8500 after reading all this about all the OEM configurations, I be buying a Gigabyte Retail Radeon 8500 (3.5ns Ram 275/275 and hardware monitoring)

[Silversinksam]

To further illustrate how confused OEM owners are let me share this email I recieved.

It started when someone mentioned my article on Radeons was on the front page of Rage underground.

I went to the forums to write a simple post that people unfamiliar with electronics and such should avoid testing thier OEM card and changing thier resistors if they didnt understand how electronics worked.

Anyway i read this on the Rage underground forums after I posted my quick post:

So how can i overclock my Radeon8500 without using powerstrip?Email me to find out(xxxxxxxxx@hotmail.com)
(or icq me 25xxxxx36)

So I am curious and I emailed him my Radeon article (http://www.overclockers.com/tips757) (he didnt read it lol but he wrote me back this:



ok here's the deal.


if you own an Radeon8500LE (the OEM one), you can just use a RETAIL FLASH ROM, which will just change to the BIOS to think its a RETAIL (275/275) instead of (250/250). The only problem is, its hard to find the BIOS and the software to do it, because its VERY illegal. (this just turns a Radeon8500LE into a Radeon8500 RETAIL for free).

Secondly, if you wanna overclock past 275/275, you can just download a nifty program called "powerstrip" which will take care of everything.

One thing you should also know, ATi leaked a beta driver "9005", which is as fast as the 7191 driver, with the image quality of the 7206 driver! Its hard to come by, but if you can find it i suggest giving it a whirl. The driver names your card "R200" which makes sense, because ATi is currently working on their new card the "R300".

anyway, if you wanna chat, just MSN me, or ICQ me @ 25xxxxx36!



Merry Christmas!


I got him on ICQ and explained the real deal to him and as it turns out his 8500 was only able to go to 265/265 without artifacts and the bios flash wouldnt have done him any good.


At Least this kid knows the deal now and will help others like I have been trying to do.......I did think the part in his email about it being Illegal was pretty funny :) But I did convince this nice kid to join Overclockers.com as this site helped me learn most of what I know about Overclocking and other stuff that has smelted into my brain.


I will explain the Radeon 8500 OEM situation to every OEM owner if it takes me forever :)




;)

[-Exi|e-]

Originally posted by Silversinksam
Exi|e-,

I definitly agree with you that the OEM situation with the Radeon 8500's is confusing the cr@p out of alot of people.

Poor guys like Treker imho were under the impression that the OEM was the same like a cpu OEM>retail

If I didnt already have my Radeon 8500 after reading all this about all the OEM configurations, I be buying a Gigabyte Retail Radeon 8500 (3.5ns Ram 275/275 and hardware monitoring)

That statement couldnt be more true. All im saying is, if you wanna buy an oem product, do your research first, of course i would buy an oem product if it was just as good as a retail. Im just a bit cautious when it comes to oem. I hope i didnt offend anyone in my other posts (Silver?).

[Wega!]

Originally posted by -Exi|e-
OEM = the same as the retail card except for the core/memory speeds, you get all the features and all but with slower speeds. If its a card made by ATi you'll probly have 3.6ns memory but if its a third party card, you might have 4ns RAM. When you buy OEM products, you get what you pay for.

I have en OEM that say's "Power by ATI", and it's with 4ns RAM's...

[Treker]

Damn it!

Newegg is'nt very returner friendly, man I hav'nt felt this 'screwed' in ages.

*sighs*

Well atleast its better than my Voodoo 3...

-Trek

[Treker]

well, as long as its not set up with 4ns ram, all hope isnt lost.. but I'm pretty sure if I open the box to find out I Deffinatly wont be able to return it.. argg..

What todo what todo.. it should be here in a couple days.
(I'm watching the fed ex tracking )

-Trek

[Yodums]

Originally posted by Treker
well, as long as its not set up with 4ns ram, all hope isnt lost.. but I'm pretty sure if I open the box to find out I Deffinatly wont be able to return it.. argg..

What todo what todo.. it should be here in a couple days.
(I'm watching the fed ex tracking )

-Trek

Well sheat happens :/

Usually online stores never have a good return policy although at least its better than the Voodoo 3 :p

[funnyperson1]

you mean at least its faster than a Ti200;) .....

[Silversinksam]

Originally posted by -Exi|e-


That statement couldnt be more true. All im saying is, if you wanna buy an oem product, do your research first, of course i would buy an oem product if it was just as good as a retail. Im just a bit cautious when it comes to oem. I hope i didnt offend anyone in my other posts (Silver?).


LOL of course not -Exi|e-!

This whole thing reminds me of an ex girlfriend I had and her family owned a clothing mill, they made many shirts for POLO and they just embroidered the POLO logo on thier shirts.

They were under licence by POLO but they just weren't the same quality so your point is dead on and I am in the wrong.

OEM can be junk and sometimes you can get lucky and get a good OEM but if in doulbt buy retail and pray it isnt an OEM with a retail badge lol :)

[Treker]

Well I supose even if it is a peice of crap, its a good priced peice of crap and will serve me well enough for the 6 months to 1 year I plan on keeping it.. I hope.

I just PRAY it dosnt have 4ns ram.. UGH!

-Trek

[Silversinksam]

Treker,

Dont sweat it nor lose any sleep over this as I am sure you will be happy with it.

Walter has a similiar version and seems to be pretty content with his.

The difference between a 250 core and a 275 is something like 5-8% difference performance wise in the charts I have seen thus far. So like I said don't sweat the small stuff.

Let us know how it all turns out.

:)

[Treker]

Originally posted by Silversinksam
Treker,

Don't sweat it nor lose any sleep over this as I am sure you will be happy with it.

Walter has a similar version and seems to be pretty content with his.

The difference between a 250 core and a 275 is something like 5-8% difference performance wise in the charts I have seen thus far. So like I said don't sweat the small stuff.

Let us know how it all turns out.

:)

Thanks, actually I'm looking forward to getting it, maybe it will take a bit more to overclock her but I'll get my moneys worth one way or another :)

Also the $129 card just went up to 185$, which is what I paid for mine, with express shipping.. so I don't feel to bad, even better when I saw what they wanted for shipping on top of the 185.. outrageous!

-Trek

[Cisco Kid]

Originally posted by Treker
well, as long as its not set up with 4ns ram, all hope isnt lost.. but I'm pretty sure if I open the box to find out I Deffinatly wont be able to return it.. argg..

What todo what todo.. it should be here in a couple days.
(I'm watching the fed ex tracking )

-Trek

Pst your 3D Mark 2K1 scores, I am interested to see what you get taking in to account the differences between system setups if it is huge. I do not recall your sig as I am typing this but I have just formatted and will be in installing all the newest drivers , agp, via ,bios and vid card drivers for my system.

I am expecting to crack 5500 with my 7500 that cost me no more than $120 US. I feel good about what I paid for a retail card. I was very impressed by the 3D Mark 2K1 scores posted by 7500 owners

IMO I would not buy a OEM Radeon 8500 just because I see the luck people are having ( larger percentage not being satisfied by what they get)

Then again I could be wrong but I do not feel the performance of a retail overclocked 7500, (thats if it is a good one) is that much off a OEM overclocked 8500 (thats if it is not overclockable friendly) well at least the $150 canadian diff or the $80 US difference, even though you get support for a few extra features and bigger pipe, (smoothvision, full support of DX8)

lets hear what y'all have to say!! Few rums tonight , hic-cup

ciao al the best


Cisco kId feeling like the crisco kid
Silversinksam , your card is the exception I would say:beer:

[Silversinksam]

Cisco,

Heres my score with CPU 1g @ 1g and 8500 @ 275/275

1024x768 32bit settings at Quality in both Opengl and D3d
(hopefully when you hit the link it will show both 16bit and 32 as I ran it twice)


http://gamershq.madonion.com/compare2k1.shtml?2276409

[Wega!]

Originally posted by Treker
Well I supose even if it is a peice of crap, its a good priced peice of crap and will serve me well enough for the 6 months to 1 year I plan on keeping it.. I hope.

I just PRAY it dosnt have 4ns ram.. UGH!

-Trek

4ns RAM's isn't THAT bad.... I have 4 ns RAM's, and I'm still able to overclock it to almost retail speeds. I'm happy about my Radeon, even though it's with 4 ns....

[iggybaseball]

I was going to buy the oem Radeon 8500 from newegg but now i am not so sure. I right now have onbard 8mb video so I was hoping this card would be better. I do not plan on instantly overclocking it since I know little about overclocking video cards, maybe in a month. What's the difference between 3.6 and 4ns? Will I notice the difference ? Should I still get the card? Will it still beat the GF3 TI200? What about the GF3? What should I do?

[Silversinksam]

Iggy,

I would buy from a different vendor, Newegg charges $179 for a 230core and possibly 4ns version.

For $210 you can get a 275/275 3.6ns retail version HERE (http://www.componentauthority.com/atirad8564dd1.html)


Or you can take a chance buying an OEM from another vendor where you may get a 250/250 Oem version(You may or you may not get 250/250)

The same vendor that has that $210 retail 8500 also lists THIS (http://www.componentauthority.com/atirad8564dd.html)

Notice they dont list a core/memory speed......Its a total confusion festival......At least Newegg is honest enough to accuratly describe what thier selling, but imho you should order elsewhere.

[iggybaseball]

ok, i think i will go with reatail.will the retail version allow me to overclock it? Why can't i just overclock a oem version to a status of retail?

[iggybaseball]

oh yeah,if 4ns ram is bad, how come i only have seen gf3 ti200 with 4ns ram. does this make them bad and hard to overclock?

[Silversinksam]

Originally posted by iggybaseball
ok, i think i will go with reatail.will the retail version allow me to overclock it? Why can't i just overclock a oem version to a status of retail?


The reason you cant just overclock the majority of 8500 OEMS is that there is two resistors that are different on some OEM's and the Retail versions.

READ THIS ON THE SUBJECT (http://www.overclockers.com/tips757)


Also there is nothing wrong with 4ns ram as thats rated for 500mhz, just theres no possible way to flash an OEM to retail with 4ns ram.

[iggybaseball]

Originally posted by Silversinksam



The reason you cant just overclock the majority of 8500 OEMS is that there is two resistors that are different on some OEM's and the Retail versions.

READ THIS ON THE SUBJECT (http://www.overclockers.com/tips757)


Also there is nothing wrong with 4ns ram as thats rated for 500mhz, just theres no possible way to flash an OEM to retail with 4ns ram.

ok, i think i finally got it. different cards come with different vmem. however 4ns means that you cannot flash a retail bios, right? Ok, so why can't u use powerstrip to overclock it to 250/250? Is this a reasonable overclock or is it not possible because u have 4ns? sorry about all the ?'s

[Silversinksam]

Iggy,

Not only is the Vmem possibly a different resistor but also its possible the gpu resistor is inhibited as well.

But using Powerstrip to try is attain 250/250(or faster) is worth a try after all 4ns ram is rated at 500mhz

[funnyperson1]

from most people who have 4ns OEMS i have heard that getting to 250 is not hard but the goal is to acheive retail status...

[iggybaseball]

Originally posted by Silversinksam
Iggy,

Not only is the Vmem possibly a different resistor but also its possible the gpu resistor is inhibited as well.

But using Powerstrip to try is attain 250/250(or faster) is worth a try after all 4ns ram is rated at 500mhz

thank u, just one more question: theoretically would u have to buy a special vid card fan to overclock to 250/250 or could u just use the fan and heatsinks the card comes with?

[Silversinksam]

Iggy,

Thats a very good question you ask, presently I am investigating why some ATI 8500's (And OEM) produce very little heat @ default while others seem to get very hot.

Mine produces very little heat (35*c under load with thermal probe on back of gpu method)

My memory also produces very little heat and the Alpha pal 15u mod and Silversinks on the ram was just a prevenative measure, since I bought OEM and had no warranty It was in my best interest to do so.


Personally I think the Ati heatsink is a piece of junk and its merely a decorative piece of hardware as its has a thin base, very pathetic fan with probably 5cfm's or less, and no fins or pins for surface area.


If your going to overclock your card get yourself a blue orb($7) or a crystal orb ($9.99) to protect your investment.


You can get a larger heatsink like an IU cooler which range in price from 9.99-$30 but on the 8500 reference design you will need to slightly
modify it to fit. (http://www.overclockers.com/tips759)


The instructions in the link above are sound ways to affix an aftermarket cooler to an 8500's GPU. (and since ATI isnt kind enough to have push pin holes for the gou Heatsink, it has to be affixed with arctic silver adhesive or arctic alumina adhesive(some people use superglue on the corners but I have shown why this is not a good idea in the past)


If you plan on not overclocking the 8500 and leave it at default speeds that pathetic ATI heatsink will be ok, but feel the backside of the GPU to determine how hot its running under load.

OH yah in the Immortal words of my friend Bladerunner, I'll end this post with his words on how ATI and 3dfx and most Manufacturers glue on thier heatsinks.


"The Gluing on of sinks by manufactures is a completely different league though and horrible at best. At least the Radeons don't get that hot I suppose, but Voodoo 5's were appalling in the heatsink bonding. Most looked like a bunch of untrained monkeys had applied some thick grunge sparingly with a baseball bat and the heatsink had been randomly dropped on to the card by a passing helicopter. "



:eek:

[Silversinksam]

This guy used an interesting method in his resistor mod as he added a POT.

Pretty good idea

http://www.1337info.com/images/ocp/R8500%20vmemmod/xma_0017.jpg

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33596412

[Treker]

Hey Guys,

Just a follow up and maybe shot some life into this thread -

Anyways, I got my card a week ago or so, really havnt had time to mess with it yet, but I find it has 4ns Ram UGH, yet it looks like 3.6ns Ram, my only clue that its not is I can only get 250mhz stable! (which is the limit of 4ns), besides its oem so its probaly 4ns.

Anyways the core will go stable around 280-285mhz which is cool, I have another fan blowing on it for now as well.

The problem is, I'm not even breaking 1900 3d 2001 marks!!!!

I have no clue what the hang up is, got a new hd, new radeon 8500, good ram, good cooling, new hsf on my p3 (Thanks Joe!)
droped my temps 10c (gotta update my sig) but now I have to leave my p3 at 933mhz, my new grafix card dont like the over clock, and my hd scrables after 162mhz or so (its still fubared gonna have to reinstall everything have it riged just to get IE to work).

I'm looking to put a freshinstall of winME on here and reinstall everything FRESH, maybe that will clear up some problems.

I've also found a program that will let me flash any bios to my card as well as make my own with custom settings, I've tryed it out a few times but it never takes properly.

I'm gonna see about finding a new hsf and ram hs' for my card as well as bumping the voltage, I've heard 300mhz is abtainable on memory with a voltage bump.

Also I'll be putting a couple tualatins in my Vp6, waiting on them in the mail with the adapter from powerleap (review to come asap).

Hopefully I'll get them this week, I'm gonna e-mail to check (cant wait!).

So any ideas what is holding back my score?

my cpu is at 933mhz
my gpu is at 275mhz
my memory is at 250mhz

-Trek

[Silversinksam]

Treker

Whats it say on the memory wafer? 36 or 4


I read that they are going to be making Korean retail Radeon 8500's soon. As all OEMs are made in Taiwan,Hong Kong and The Netherlands(Club3d (http://www.club-3d.com/) is making a 300 core version)

[Treker]

Hey Sam

The chips say

hynix 145A
HYDV641622AT-36
KOREA

Also I'm on a fresh installation of win98se formated my new hd and started over, I got 5000+ 3dmarks with out even tweaking her yet. 230/230 is what my card runs at default.

Gonna do the voltage mod and go for 300/300 (along with some cooling mods mind you)

Thanks

-Trek

[-Exi|e-]

Originally posted by Treker
Hey Sam

The chips say

hynix 145A
HYDV641622AT-36
KOREA

Also I'm on a fresh installation of win98se formated my new hd and started over, I got 5000+ 3dmarks with out even tweaking her yet. 230/230 is what my card runs at default.

Gonna do the voltage mod and go for 300/300 (along with some cooling mods mind you)

Thanks

-Trek

That -36 at the end means 3.6ns memory. You got lucky with your OEM!

[funnyperson1]

try to see how far it will go without volt mod as it is 3.6ns ram (as Exile said by the -36 at the end) maybe that could be a good place to get an 8500LE

[{PMS}fishy]

I have the OEM ati 8500 didn't know that there was a differnece, untill now. Was able to O/C to 275/275 with no problems. here Check it out.

[Treker]

Hey Guys!

I tweaked my computer for 3 hours or so and put on new drivers, more aggressive memory timmings as well as overclocking the card a bit more I"m going to trace the resistors tomorrow and go for 310/310 :)

Anyways, I got my P3 running faster than hell and memory is better, my 3dmark2001 score is now

6094!!!

Before drivers and tweaks it was around 5100
Before reinstalling windows it was under 1900 :(

Cant wait to see how it works with the voltage bump.

-Trek

[mikester]

im not sure if this has been mentioned (i didnt bother to read the other page) but you can flash the OEM 8500's to think they are retails and they will o/c themselves accordingly.

a friend of mine did it and it worked fine (until he broke it using a voltage monitor).

[Silversinksam]

Originally posted by mikester
im not sure if this has been mentioned (i didnt bother to read the other page) but you can flash the OEM 8500's to think they are retails and they will o/c themselves accordingly.

a friend of mine did it and it worked fine (until he broke it using a voltage monitor).


mikester, not all Oem's can be flashed

http://www.overclockers.com/tips757/

[-Exi|e-]

Blue looks good on you Silver :cool:

[moonman]

have anyone of u guys tried pencil trick? well I did after I flash bios to the retail one, then did pencil trick, running at 295/580 compared to 250/500 before.

[iggybaseball]

i heard that flashing some oems with retail bios can burn the card. is this true?

[Silversinksam]

Before you flash an OEM card you should run Powerstrip or similiar program and discover if your card can run at 275/275 artifact free, then Flashing is ok

Treker, I'd like to hear more about your tracing project as that is great news for some of the people that have 230 cores (with 3.6ns Ram)

PS Thanks -Exi|e- :)


PSS I bought a cheap PCI card on Ebay for like $3 as Im going to Flash my card this week.

Its kind of foolish to Flash mine as I will have to use Powerstrip to reach 300/300 But Flashing it was on my to do list.

I cant go over 305mhz Memory and maybe the BIos Flash will help. Probably not but worth a try.

[Treker]

Originally posted by Silversinksam
[B]Before you flash an OEM card you should run Powerstrip or similiar program and discover if your card can run at 275/275 artifact free, then Flashing is ok

Treker, I'd like to hear more about your tracing project as that is great news for some of the people that have 230 cores (with 3.6ns Ram)



Well basicaly I'm going to trace the ends of the resistors together instead of getting out the solding iron, it will give me a nice power bost with out all the hassle.

And no I cant run 275/275 artifact free, more like 280-90/250-55
but thats because I'm hardly getting any juice!

Soon as I pick up a trace pen I'll fix that problemo.

And as far as the bios goes, you can make your own bios to have it run at your custom speeds, then flash it - or I"ll make it for you, just tell me the speeds you want for mem and core, what kinda of card you have exactly, ect.

-Trek

[Silversinksam]

Treker,

That Bold print was for everybody except you :)

Ps Do you have a dig camera? If so will you take a pic when you use your trace pen. Thanks

[moonman]

use the pencil trick and up the vmem voltage then overclock ur memory it will work fine with no artifacts. I have my 250/500 at 295/590 no artifacts.

[Treker]

Originally posted by Silversinksam
Treker,

That Bold print was for everybody except you :)

Ps Do you have a dig camera? If so will you take a pic when you use your trace pen. Thanks

Sam,

Heh,

And nope I dont have a digital camer, but my Brother has a web cam, though I highly doubt it can take a good enough shot to see the traces, I'm gonna pick up a trace pen tomorrow, well maybe tonight but its almost 9pm here.. might find a rear window defrost pen at that gas station though..

-Trek

Also I noticed the newest Drivers for my Radeon mess up my new spider man game :(