Superquiet WC build - help needed...

Hello folks.
Pretty new to this forum and I'm in desperate need for some assistance.
The rig I have is a HTPC and some might think - hey - what is this kid doing over in the overclockers departament.
Well - I am more and more thinking that the only solution for my setup is a water - cooled system. And that is a quiet, if not very queit one, due to heavy loading. Most people tell me I'm nuts with watercooling, but the echoing of my fans tell me differently!

The hardware:
Asus P5B Deluxe 775 socket
Intel Core 2 Duo - 1.8 GHz
NVidia GeForce 7600 GS (silent 256 Mb)
PSU; Zalman ZM-460 - (Silent - but not fanless)
4 Samsung HDD 500 Mb
RAM: 4Gb fast bugger - Corsair.

Case: Moncaso - Moneual 932P (as seen on enclosed image - not with my hardware installed - snitched that picture from a review only to show how beautifully loaded it gets)



Fans Internal: 4 x Cooltech 80 mm 9db brushless fans
Fans External: 1 x 120 mm Cooltech Brusless fan (se below why...)

When running the HTPC - I get temperatures at 50-54 C normal usage, and up to 60-62 C on heavy load - that is Matroska files for h264 Videos.
Mobo temperature ranges from 48-50 up to 55 when under heavy stress.
These temperatures are not helped by the fact that this machine is fitted in a indent in the wall. It has about 20 cm behind it, 10 cm above, and 10 on each side.
In order to cool the system I have installed a fan in the bottom of the shelf, that leads to a bigger indent where a subwoofer is located. I,ve experimented and the best solution has been to suck air into the computer area so that it is pushed forward and out of the indent.

The problem is the NOISE!! When temperatures go too high, the silent mode is pretty much disabled and the 9500 is running like crazy at 2200+ and it makes an awful lot of noise.
When putting my hand behind the rig, the air is hot. But the 2x80 mm 9db fans can't do much more. It feels like hot air is trapped inside. There is no way I can install a 120 mm fan unless I rip up the whole case. and that is beyond the point. It is hot, hot, hot and it won't cool down without speeding fans or putting it on the sofa table. Wife-approval = nothing. I've tried insulating with high-end insulations - but somehow I get exactly what I was dreading - higher temperature by a degree or two... and the fans run some faster yet.

So, back to subject. Is there any way I can have a quiet system? Really quiet using Watercooling? I have been looking on different pumps, reservoirs etc... but at the end of the day, which one is the queit one?
I'm willing to cough up 250-350 USD for a good system.
So help me out.

- Which quiet pump should I opt for? With queit I'm looking at 10-12 dB

- Reservoir? Should the pump be submerged for super quietness or is this causing extra headaches? I can fit something like 10x10x10 cm in the case in front of the PSU. Any suggestions?
- Radiator - I only have 2 x 80 mm vent holes in the back - should I opt for a Black Ice Micro II from Danger Den? Place it externally behind the 80 mm outlet and that will at least solve the problem with too much hot air building up inside the case? I'm not up for having an external system, but a rear-mounted radiator is okey however...
- Finally - should I try to cool down the HDD as well? At the moment there are two side-intakes with fans mounted in front of the HDD keeping them at 41 C or below... I only run 1-2 HDD at each given time as they are shut down when not used. Basically products from Kooltech?
Please advise... I'm lost!
Many thanks in advance!

Well, you mention that you want to stay away from doing an external enclosure. So, your only real option looks to be using a BIM2 (Black Ice Micro 2). You're not going to be abel to cool more than the cpu with it, but yo ucould at least reomve that heat from the case.

My suggestions:

Swiftech Apogee Gt CPU block (3/8" barbs)
MCP-355 pump
BIM2 radiator (3/8" ID barbs
Swiftech Micro res.
Clear flex 60 3/8" ID tubing. (stuff aint that expensive so get a few feet more than you think you'll need)

You might want to put some more powerful 80mm fans on that BIM2, but using that setup should give you a fairly quiet system, that will adequately cool your CPU and remove some heat from your case.

If you get a larger radaitor you may be able to go fanless.

Jas said:

Swiftech Apogee Gt CPU block (3/8" barbs)
MCP-355 pump

Swiftech Micro res.

Click to expand...

I've read somewhere that the MCP-355 is a tad louder than the 350 or 650 make... and the 350 is listed at 24-26dB which could be too loud?

Concerning Swiftech Micro Res - is it not better to go for a bigger reservoir = less heat-buildup and a chance to cool HDD?

How high temperatures should I accept in a HDD by the way... operating temperatures on some are up to 60... but isn't that closing the range for long-term data melt-down?

Regards!

I'm not sure about how much louder the pump is. under 30db won't be that bad., especially inside an enclosure. The main reason for that pump is it's smaller size and that it is 3/8" native. Given the small size of your case and cramped room, you'll want to go with thinner tubing, to make things easier for you.

As far as a res goes, bigger isn't always better. no matter how big your resevoir, your loop will reach equilibrium at some point. The Resevoir is mainly there to make filling the loop easier. Not to act as a heat dump.

And don't worry about your HDDs. once you pull the hot air from the cpu out of the case, everything else will cool down too. If you are really worried about it, make some additional fan mounts in the case, and install some "silent" fans. One or two would make a difference.

The MCP350 is considerably quieter, so you should probably go with that.

If you want a superquiet fan setup, the Scythe S-flex at 1200rpm on a fan controller should be next to silent depending how slow you want to run the fans at.

MCP350 should be a good choice for a pump as well. The D5 is noisy to me. Intolerable on 5, acceptable on 1.

I went into watercooling for silence/performance, so I have tried lots of combinations to get my setup quiet, and I am a noise freak.

The MCP350 is the pump you want. It is the quietest pump of its size available. There are some modified Eheim 1048 pumps that are quieter, but they are much larger, are AC powered, and are sold in europe and would cost over twice as much.

I hate to say it, but what you really want however is to defy physics, which no one has yet figured out how to do. The only way to really get silent is to increase the cooling capacity and decrease the airflow needed to dissipate the heat. With watercooling, this requires a larger radiator with less airflow.

I bought a PA120.3 for this very reason as I use an MCP350 with yate loons fans at 4-5v each and it cools my overclocked E6400 and 8800GT very well, yet is below room ambient noise levels.

That dual micro rad may handle your CPU, which could lower your case temps, but you aren't going to see stellar performance from it due to its size. And even if you use that the heat still has to be able to have enough air around the case to dissipate.

You simply can't have it all. The heat has to go somewhere, and you have to provide a means and a place for it to go.

I personally would enlarge the inset area in the wall to accomodate an external watercooling box. That way you wouldn't have to cram everything into that small case, and you could find a way to use a 3x120mm rad and fans without tearing your case apart. Or that may give you a way to mount a triple rad on top of the case. If you want silence your options are limited.

It looks to me like you need to consolidate the fan INs and OUTs, then isolate the in and out sides using baffles of some kind - maybe black foam-board wouldn't look too bad. If needed you could add a pair of silent 80mm fans to the intake and exhaust sides near the front of your cabinet opening (behind nice-looking grills, of course ) ...

Can you go passive with just a heat sink?

Mycobacteria said:

Can you go passive with just a heat sink?

Click to expand...

You can, but it's not a good idea unless the hardware is low power/low heat output. It's best to at least have some airflow, like using silent fans as some have suggested. It doesn't look like you'll be able to fit a radiator inside that case, so your only options for watercooling would be external-either a radiator strapped to the back, or one of those koolance towers (though they're not the best performers, it should get the job done).

Generally pumps aren't going to make much noise, you've got to have the case open and really lean in close to hear the MCP650. In your case the 350 would be a better choice just for space constraints, but the fans are inevitably going to make more noise. You should probably look into a 2x120mm radiator and a radbox attached to the back of the case, that would be able to cool your CPU & GPU with silent fans.

Thanks so far...

voigts said:

The MCP350 is the pump you want. It is the quietest pump of its size available. There are some modified Eheim 1048 pumps that are quieter, but they are much larger, are AC powered, and are sold in europe and would cost over twice as much.

That dual micro rad may handle your CPU, which could lower your case temps, but you aren't going to see stellar performance from it due to its size. And even if you use that the heat still has to be able to have enough air around the case to dissipate.

Click to expand...

I somehow knew I was trying to defy physics...
But, if the golden rule of energy applies (which it should) then I might solve this with excellent help at this forum!

The problem, as you've mentioned, consists of two parts. The first is the heat inside, the second is the heat buildup behind the rig. Unfortunately I'm not really in the mood of installing an external (separate) radiator system since I want to be able to take the rig out when modding with it...

At the moment - too much noise comes from actually trying to remove the heat from inside the rig.
I'm also a noise freak and with 4x80 mm fans, 1x12 mm fan + PSU 12 mm and Zalman 9500 + projector at 24 dB my house feels like a space shuttle seconds before launch.

I might be able to solve the problem with heat buildup behind the rig. The 60 cm deep indent is actually part of a closet (big sliding door kind of closet) in the adjacent room. Basically when sliding the glass doors open, you have a separate mdf board door covering the indent from the side. When you open that door - magic - you are facing the computer from the side. (don't know if that description makes sense)

Now I have a possibility to shave down - lets say a few centimeters of the door covering the indent, basically letting the hot air flow up along the sliding door and shelves. A bonus - the clothes get preheated in wintertime...
I've experimented with removing the door and sure it gets cooler, but fans still run like crazy....

Question 1: If I rear mount the radiator externally (behind) the 80 mm outlets - will I get rith of the all the PSU heat build-up in the case? The memory and Graphic card will have to find a way to survive. It requires a bit of case modding to get cooling tubes out- but I'm up for it...

Question 2: Would a 12 cm radiator do better than the twin 80 mm radiators (BIM2)? I could do some case modding even for that purpose. it would stick up a bit - but who'll notice...

Question 3: With a better rear-heat dissipation - can I expect this investment to work? I'd like to remove the CPU fan (that is the main issue I have) and if possible the 2 HDD fans up front without increasing the temperatures on them. Leaving me with only 2x80 or 1x120 mm fan? Or is it still going to be the radiator surface that kills it for me? This of course, if I get the heat out in the indent..?

I'll have a look at the Eheim pump. I live in Europe

QuietIce said:

It looks to me like you need to consolidate the fan INs and OUTs, then isolate the in and out sides using baffles of some kind - maybe black foam-board wouldn't look too bad. If needed you could add a pair of silent 80mm fans to the intake and exhaust sides near the front of your cabinet opening (behind nice-looking grills, of course ) ...

Click to expand...

The thought crossed my mind and I've experimented. Didn't change much unfortunately... You need stronger fans = more noise to make it happen...

Mycobacteria said:

Can you go passive with just a heat sink?

Click to expand...

I don't think the rig will cope with that - too much heat already. Will fry the system. Even at 2200 + RPM the system goes above 60 C (which to mee is a bit too much)). And that is running the QFan in Silent... when running optimal it gets up at 2800 RPM...

Gentle_man27 said:

The thought crossed my mind and I've experimented. Didn't change much unfortunately... You need stronger fans = more noise to make it happen...

Click to expand...

What I was talking about was adding a couple of very low noise (S-flex "D") 120mm fans behind a speaker-looking grill at each side of your unit at the front of the cabinet. The baffles behind the fans would direct cooler intake air to your HTPC's inlets and the exhaust side would pull heat from the cabinet (and your HTPC fan outlets) and push it on out into the room. The Scythe S-flex "D" is an extremely quite fan ...

You will not be able to have a silent system using internal watercooling in that case. Silent requires a large rad (PA120.3, MCR320-QP, BIP III) with slow speed fans.

A BIM2 or single 120mm rad wont be able to cut it, IMO you're better off sticking with air cooling in that case.

Also, 9db on those 80mm fans? That must be a typo...

Clockwork_Apple said:

You will not be able to have a silent system using internal watercooling in that case. Silent requires a large rad (PA120.3, MCR320-QP, BIP III) with slow speed fans.

A BIM2 or single 120mm rad wont be able to cut it, IMO you're better off sticking with air cooling in that case.

Also, 9db on those 80mm fans? That must be a typo...

Click to expand...

Okey... I get the general feel for what is possible and what is wishful thinking...

I've done some demolishing since yesterday. I've shaved off the door (5 cm) leading into the cupboard so better air-venting, stripped my case, remvoing all insulation, an extra TV card and firewire card and removed everything I could and I've now dropped CPU temperatures under load to 52-54 C!
(basically 5-6 C)

The decrease in temp has rendered the CPU fan to run at 1800-2000 RPM instead of 2200. The case doesn't get as hot, the air is not as hot either at the rear-end. What I get as a bonus is the increased noise from not having insulation...

And no, there was no typo...the 80 mm fans at 9dB are from Coolink http://www.coolink-europe.com/main.php?show=art_list&item=1&cat=1&cat_set=1 Obviously not the strongest sucker out there, but after the change in environment, it does it's job since temperature inside the case feels much better. The problem still lies with removing the CPU heat without running the CPU fan...

I'll have a look into Scythe as well...

I'm contempating doing some major artwork. Raising the top shelf, giving the space for more air-vent above the rig, getting a 3x120 mm rad and mounting it ontop of everything. But then God Dammit! it has to be able to run wihtout any fans!!!

Or am I defying physics again???

Gentle_man27 said:

And no, there was no typo...the 80 mm fans at 9dB are from Coolink http://www.coolink-europe.com/main.php?show=art_list&item=1&cat=1&cat_set=1

Click to expand...

That's 9dB/A, not 9dB. I'm no expert, but I believe the /A means the dB rating is weighted against something.

There is no way those fans are 9dB, lol.

The 120.3 on top would be an excellent idea. I can turn off the fans on my tripple rad and run passive when I'm idle, temps get to about 50C idle though, with graphics card in the loop and CPU overclocked to 3Ghz.

I have two 120mm fans that are variable speed turning 1200rpm and doing so at 23dBA. About 85cfm total going thru the rad. It's a much quieter system than before and I lowered the core temp by 20°C. Cranking up the speed of the fans or the pump (MCP655) doesn't help either. I only have a apogee CPU block, microres, pump and fan, so my flow rate is still excellent at low pump speeds.

Now I walk in the room and don't hear it, makes me wonder if it crashed for a second! Then I see the LED blue glow and realize it's ok.

http://usera.imagecave.com/sstrokerace/DSCN1705.JPG

These two fans would be worth looking at:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835185004
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835226023

I like variable fans to change the airflow depending on the time of year, but if you don't mind spending the money on the Scythe fans they are going to be ultra quiet for you. I personally don't like sleeve bearings and the fluid dynamic bearings they use are awesome. With 33cfm per fan going thru a dual rad I don't see any issues at all with your setup. Compared to the Zalman the two 120mm rad fans with H2O are going to give you a better temp drop and be very quiet. You might also just want to look at a fan for the HDD's.

Also when you put the rad fans on, figure out which way they make less noise pushing or pulling air thru the rad and give them room to move the air into and out of the area. Paying attention to that is important for cooling and noise.

Bret