Hierarchy; limits to how important it is?

[Agashka]

Hi, my name is Vincent, I am 17 years old, graduating this year, going to college outside the city for 2 years in Programmation.

I went to pick up stuff at my aunt today, it's far away. During that 30 minutes ride, I had one of the worsts conversation ever with my dad.

Lets begin with the beginning shall we?
Last year I left my 'friends' because they acted really mean with me, and trashed some of my stuff. I had nowhere to go, but I met Remy, my today's best friend.
So Yesterday we hanged out with some girls, they had a ride, but Remy didn't, so I invited him to sleep at my home, I do this often because he live far away, and his parents don't have car.
The conversation began with talking about 3 type of people, poor/medium/rich. My dad situated us as almost rich, because we don't own any money to banks. He classified my friend as poor (without directly telling me, but the message was clear).

He said people like us, should be friend, or stay with higher people in the hierarchy, so we would look good to other people, when it come to getting a job and such. He said people will remember, if they've seen you with 'poor' or 'stylish' people.(my friend shave rarely, and have a piercing, along with tattoo), and our town is really small. To what he said, he doesn't want me to be friend with poor people, for a hierarchy concern. When he told me that I couldn't argue because it... just didn't make sense to me. What to do? I know he's gonna talk about this with me again, but I won't have anything to say.

[FireMogle]

In a small town yet it will, anywhere else.... no. Unless you are taking bums to job interviews anyway.

[Ebola]

Bite you tounge until you're free. Some people have old world ideas and nothing you say will change their perception. Until you can pay your own bills, I would hold off from saying anything. He is the hand that feeds you.

Poor, rich, whatever; unlike relatives, you get to choose your friends. You will most likely change your views several times by the time you're on your own. You may find some irony in how things end up. Most of my friends are in the same social class as me. We all have professional jobs and most of us went to college or grad school.

[BenF]

I grew up in a very small farming town and who you were friends with had a very large impact on your life. It affected how teachers treated/graded you, whether you were on sports teams or not, whether you could find a job in the town or not, what would happen if you got pulled over by the police etc...basically, if affected your entire life.

I then spent a couple years in Hannover, Germany (500,000+ people) and I learned that it didn't really matter who I was friends with or how I acted. This has been re-enforced even more in Uni (University of Michigan, 40000 students or so). Once you are out of a small town environment it doesn't matter who you are friends with (excluding networking for jobs/internships).

[Captain Newbie]

I suppose that you're in high school and as such, hierarchy actually still matters for you. Once you get out it matters less, although there are peculiar/absurd rituals that the corporate world still observes (like walking on eggshells/less-than-accurately representing the truth to upper-upper management or only upchannelling good news) that, I suppose, are a necessary evil since upper management simply cannot be bothered.

As far as the high school hierarchy, it is rendered null and void the minute you receive your diploma. My first year out of college I wound up working at the same company that our valedictorian wound up working at as an intern[1]: with the same title and same pay schedule. And as for while you're in high school, if your friends actually want to hold you to that hierarchy, then they are stupid and ugly, and you need new friends. Indeed, if anybody tries to hold you to that, then they're not really your friends.

When a friend tells you that you can't do something the first words out of your mouth should be "why not?"

[1] This is a source of considerable humor and irony; although she's won a small grant now we still work pretty much the same jobs, despite disparities in spending on our education. When you consider that most of the people between us on the former academic hierarchy are spending their time guzzling beer and making no productive contributions to society, I think we're going to be okay, although I hesitate to use a personal plural pronoun when referring to the situation.

[Frodo Baggins]

I suppose that you're in high school and as such, hierarchy actually still matters for you.

This is a true observation. But I don't agree in lumping this into a 'high school' thing. Why not? Read on.

My school, for example, is afflicted with a little bit of this problem -- though it's more prevalent at the undergraduate level (see, for example, the Laura Spence Affair (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura_Spence_Affair). The thing is, the younger you are, the less sure you are of your place in the world. This is why, in part, high school kids like to cling to stereotypes and cliches groups. The older you get, the more confident you are of your background and social status and the more you learn to 'cope' with it.

In other words, there is always going to be a social and hierarchal ladder. There's always going to be separation between poor, middle, and rich families. But the older you are, and the more independent you are, the less it matters.

If you go searching for it, you'll always find hoity toity rich kiddies who bunch together in smoking jackets and pompously discuss cricket and polo. They're there at every generation, not just high school.

My first year out of college I wound up working at the same company that our valedictorian wound up working at as an intern[1]

This is exactly what I'm saying. The older you are, the more opportunities you're given to break from the mold and find your own way. You can think of it like a tree. The older you are, the more directions and branches you have to grow. When you're young, you have limited options.

As far as the high school hierarchy, it is rendered null and void the minute you receive your diploma.

Yes, but then you enter into the college hierarchy, and then there's the workplace hierarchy. It doesn't disappear. It just doesn't mean as much. High school is an interesting period in one's life.

[Captain Newbie]

Yes, but then you enter into the college hierarchy, and then there's the workplace hierarchy. It doesn't disappear. It just doesn't mean as much. High school is an interesting period in one's life.
This is also true, unfortunately...although the hierarchy is slightly less apparent to me at the moment, I'm sure I'll bang into it (repeatedly) if/when I try to go to graduate school.

If you go searching for it, you'll always find hoity toity rich kiddies who bunch together in smoking jackets and pompously discuss cricket and polo. They're there at every generation, not just high school.
Aye. **** those people...pardon my Finnish. I try to ignore them as much as is possible, although I suppose that at least in England it's nicer, since they actually talk about something (cricket, and polo). Here in the good ol' US, most of those pompous folks are hanging around talking about what (or whom...) they did the evening before at their raging parties, before they get in their BMWs to drive home for the weekend.

[Frodo Baggins]

This is also true, unfortunately...although the hierarchy is slightly less apparent to me at the moment, I'm sure I'll bang into it (repeatedly) if/when I try to go to graduate school.


Actually, it's pretty nonexistent in grad school (science grad school I mean). I mean, everybody's a geek. Everybody's pretty much accepted it by then.

[Captain Newbie]

Actually, it's pretty nonexistent in grad school (science grad school I mean). I mean, everybody's a geek. Everybody's pretty much accepted it by then.

There are two grad degrees I intend to pursue (although I've thought of others, like a master's in public administration): a PhD C.S., or an MBA, emphasis in aviation management...I figure that either of those are specialized enough that the people involved do admit their geekitude, which, when read sideways, means "passion for the job at hand".

[SkuToV]

Paraphrased quote from a number of different places: "Money, gender, race and any other variable you can think of shouldn't be barriers to friendship, If they are, then you are being prejudiced."

[Frodo Baggins]

Paraphrased quote from a number of different places: "Money, gender, race and any other variable you can think of shouldn't be barriers to friendship, If they are, then you are being prejudiced."

Well...duh(...?) But denying prejudice is impossible. We're all prejudiced to some extent. This is like denying that we treat beautiful people differently. We all do it. Some to greater extents, but all the same.

I've had this good friend for ages, and I've always known that she's had a bit of a crush on me. She comes from a very rich family, however, and so she's always the one to shower me with expensive gifts on Christmas and my birthdays. She doesn't flaunt it, however -- or, seems to try not to. But there's still something there that's always made me a bit uncomfortable. It's not shallow of me. It's just natural to feel a bit of unease around people of different social standings.

You want to talk about hierarchal systems? Let's talk about whether you'd be okay with your wife/partner making more money than you and having the 'better' job. I had a discussion about this very issue with a friend, and both of us are not exactly Neanderthals, but we both agreed that it's not something we'd be comfortable with. This is why it's difficult to date someone in your profession. There is a certain element of competitiveness that is always there. And the fact of the matter is, some of us (males) are still raised to believe that we should be the mean breadwinner and the successful one on the household. You can even argue that it's an evolutionary and historical thing.

And so I say again, this doesn't disappear after high school. Just exactly how comfortable would you be married to a wonderful, loving wife...who just happens to make more money than you, earn better grades than you, and has a better job than you?

[Captain Newbie]

This is why it's difficult to date someone in your profession.
+1 It's difficult to date anyone who's competing with you on any field; attempts to do so can lead to disaster.
There is a certain element of competitiveness that is always there. And the fact of the matter is, some of us (males) are still raised to believe that we should be the mean breadwinner and the successful one on the household. You can even argue that it's an evolutionary and historical thing.
I don't know. With the increasing liberalization of the workplace (not political liberalization I'm talking about here) I think that we'll probably start seeing a lot more of this. I'm actually okay with it too, so long as equality of opportunity implies equality of expectations, professional and ethical standards, and responsibility.

We ball-bearing testosterone-producing people are being screwed in elementary and secondary education right now by a curriculum that is pretty much tailored to females.
And so I say again, this doesn't disappear after high school. Just exactly how comfortable would you be married to a wonderful, loving wife...who just happens to make more money than you, earn better grades than you, and has a better job than you?
Quite comfortable, sir, because I can see through all that, notwithstanding the breadwinner complex. :)

I've had this good friend for ages, and I've always known that she's had a bit of a crush on me. She comes from a very rich family, however, and so she's always the one to shower me with expensive gifts on Christmas and my birthdays. She doesn't flaunt it, however -- or, seems to try not to. But there's still something there that's always made me a bit uncomfortable. It's not shallow of me. It's just natural to feel a bit of unease around people of different social standings.
(Emphasis mine.) I would argue that is a systemic shortcoming, and say something well-thought-out about the expanding gap between rich and poor, and so forth...but I'm simply too tired to do so at the moment. :cool:

[Frodo Baggins]

+1 It's difficult to date anyone who's competing with you on any field; attempts to do so can lead to disaster.


See, they don't even have to be competing with you directly.

It's funny because the staff and students at my department were discussing the statistics of marriage within the department just the other day (one of our grad students was just married). There have been some instances of within-departmental marriages (not a lot, but a few). We were wondering whether the current status of the marriage was: divorce, rocky, or solid.

Even though the sample was statistically insignificant (maybe only 5 within-departmental marriages), I think quite a few ended in divorce.

That being said, I could never stand for it. I get enough math as it is. I don't want any more in the form of a woman.

[Captain Newbie]

See, they don't even have to be competing with you directly.

It's funny because the staff and students at my department were discussing the statistics of marriage within the department just the other day (one of our grad students was just married). There have been some instances of within-departmental marriages (not a lot, but a few). We were wondering whether the current status of the marriage was: divorce, rocky, or solid.

Even though the sample was statistically insignificant (maybe only 5 within-departmental marriages), I think quite a few ended in divorce.
You should forward these results to someone in sociology (or some similar field) and have them conduct a study with larger N; I too would be interested in the results.

That being said, I could never stand for it. I get enough math as it is. I don't want any more in the form of a woman.

:D :clap: Glad to hear that; I thought I was the only one who, at the end of the day, was sick of hearing about his field and needed to hear about something else! I probably couldn't handle dating most of the female computer scientists I know simply because at the end of the day/week I've simply had quite enough.

[twEEkerAreUs]

See, they don't even have to be competing with you directly.

It's funny because the staff and students at my department were discussing the statistics of marriage within the department just the other day (one of our grad students was just married). There have been some instances of within-departmental marriages (not a lot, but a few). We were wondering whether the current status of the marriage was: divorce, rocky, or solid.

Even though the sample was statistically insignificant (maybe only 5 within-departmental marriages), I think quite a few ended in divorce.

That being said, I could never stand for it. I get enough math as it is. I don't want any more in the form of a woman.

My experience is never date someone from your job and tread carefully working at a place with a good friend. Relationships tend to almost always spill over into the work place which really nobody needs to hear that bs.

Friends well you might find out some traits or things about them that will annoy or **** you off, usually you have better chances having things work well with a friend though.


He said people like us, should be friend, or stay with higher people in the hierarchy, so we would look good to other people, when it come to getting a job and such. He said people will remember, if they've seen you with 'poor' or 'stylish' people.(my friend shave rarely, and have a piercing, along with tattoo), and our town is really small. To what he said, he doesn't want me to be friend with poor people, for a hierarchy concern. When he told me that I couldn't argue because it... just didn't make sense to me. What to do? I know he's gonna talk about this with me again, but I won't have anything to say.

Small Town, Rich Area, New to the country, Older age, Etc.......Really I've met a lot of people that fit how your Father acts, he's probably looking at the perspective of (I want to keep my son on the straight and narrow, to become successful). Sadly he is going about it in the wrong way, but hey his house his (Screwed up) rules.

[TheCheat]

I agree with pretty much everything everyone has said.

To the OP:
Wait till your out of the highschool and get the first year of partying at college out of the way... you'll realize that 99% of what your experiencing now won't even matter to you.

If I had a nickel for everytime I got worked up over the popularity contests in highschool... I probably wouldn't have to pay for college!

[z0n3]

If you go to smaller schools for college there are still popularity contests. I have friends at Rose-Hulman, a small private engineering undergrad school, that claim the old high school social hierarchy is alive and well even in a land infested with nerds, geeks, and the worst hell-spawn on earth, the engineering major.