Which side do YOU take in this?(Creative and Daniel_K)

[Adragontattoo]

http://forums.creative.com/creativelabs/board/message?board.id=soundblaster&thread.id=116332

Daniel_K:

We are aware that you have been assisting owners of our Creative sound cards for some time now, by providing unofficial driver packages for Vista that deliver more of the original functionality that was found in the equivalent XP packages for those sound cards. In principle we don't have a problem with you helping users in this way, so long as they understand that any driver packages you supply are not supported by Creative. Where we do have a problem is when technology and IP owned by Creative or other companies that Creative has licensed from, are made to run on other products for which they are not intended. We took action to remove your thread because, like you, Creative and its technology partners think it is only fair to be compensated for goods and services. The difference in this case is that we own the rights to the materials that you are distributing. By enabling our technology and IP to run on sound cards for which it was not originally offered or intended, you are in effect, stealing our goods. When you solicit donations for providing packages like this, you are profiting from something that you do not own. If we choose to develop and provide host-based processing features with certain sound cards and not others, that is a business decision that only we have the right to make.

Although you say you have discontinued your practice of distributing unauthorized software packages for Creative sound cards we have seen evidence of them elsewhere along with donation requests from you. We also note in a recent post of yours on these forums, that you appear to be contemplating the release of further packages. To be clear, we are asking you to respect our legal rights in this matter and cease all further unauthorized distribution of our technology and IP. In addition we request that you observe our forum rules and respect our right to enforce those rules. If you are in any doubt as to what we would consider unacceptable then please request clarification through one of our forum moderators before posting.

Phil O'Shaughnessy
VP Corporate Communications
Creative Labs Inc.


Thread is 86 pages at last check, and I dont see ANYONE defending creative.

So do you think that Daniel was right or wrong in fixing Creatives broken support?

[Xenocide]

They should just hire him....

[jivetrky]

Well, just from reading the letter from Creative, I would have to agree with them. This is without knowing anything about the situation other than what I got from the letter. It sounds like he was offering drivers that increased functionality for creative cards but was also offering drivers that allowed creative drivers (or some sort of creative technology) to run on cards other than creative. Because of this I would agree with them that he should not be doing so. Or at least not doing so and requesting any kind of donations. perhaps if he was doing it absolutely free (without any links to donations etc) it wouldn't be such an issue, but if he is trying to make any kind of money on THEIR basic software, then it's not right. IMO, of course. :shrug:

And again, I'll say that I have NO prior knowledge of the situation nor do I want to read an 85 page thread to learn of it. I'm only going on the letter in the OP.

[Pandam00nium]

Well, just from reading the letter from Creative, I would have to agree with them. This is without knowing anything about the situation other than what I got from the letter. It sounds like he was offering drivers that increased functionality for creative cards but was also offering drivers that allowed creative drivers (or some sort of creative technology) to run on cards other than creative. Because of this I would agree with them that he should not be doing so. Or at least not doing so and requesting any kind of donations. perhaps if he was doing it absolutely free (without any links to donations etc) it wouldn't be such an issue, but if he is trying to make any kind of money on THEIR basic software, then it's not right. IMO, of course. :shrug:

And again, I'll say that I have NO prior knowledge of the situation nor do I want to read an 85 page thread to learn of it. I'm only going on the letter in the OP.

Based on just reading the letter and nothing else provided I agree with this.

[Neuromancer]

Based on reading the letter and not knowing creative I would agree with Creative.

Considering that creative refused to release Vista drivers for many of their products so that people were forced to upgrade rather then keep using a tried and true soundcard, I say stick it in their keister.

As for using it on other soundcards... I would need to look into it more and see if he added functionality for other cards or simply hacked their software to work on it.

All he has to do is stop pushing it for products other than Creative.

[SteveLord]

Siding with Creative.

I *think* the fact that he is supposedly asking for donations infringes on it even more.

[DvBoard]

Creative is in effect using their "rights" to the software to prevent it's use. While this is likely fair under law (although i'm not even sure of that), it's an ******* move by the company.

Thus i would NOT support creative on this front, just as i won't support any company that owns something purely to keep others from using it.

[=ACID RAIN=]

I would support the guy if no money or donations were involved. That would be for no profit, and would be just helping the community. However if he is asking for donations, he is in the wrong and just trying to make a few bucks under the table.

[Hazaro]

Having gone through Creative's own absolutely ****ty drivers myself, they can go **** themselves. Having my sound switch randomly, with bad playback, random changes of 44.1k-192k, sound only coming out the left speaker, and the inability to record Line In?

And you're telling me the ONLY stable XP drivers for my card are from 2002? Linked from a crazy (awesome) guy on Head-Fi? Bull-****. :temper:

If I'm reading this right, he is not only making stable drivers for Vista (which Creative is not doing) but also adding (or re-allowing) features that the cards shouldn't have.***
*** It looks like the features the sound cards had in XP would "not work" in Vista. a.k.a. Creative disabled the features and made inoperable, he just simply re-enabled them.

From a legal standpoint Creative is justified in their decision, but I don't like it.

*^ I doubt he's doing this for the money, work like this takes time and effort and it's a way to show appreciation and support for the guy. However, it adds another thing that Creative can justify.

[Hardin]

Creative sucks and I'm glad that I'm just using onboard sound now. No crappy driver issues to deal with. I'm totally on his side.

[Hazaro]

I would also like to add, that he is supposedly refunding all of his donations and taking a fee hit from Paypal.

All he did was enable the features the cards were supposed to have in Windows Vista.

[G3F0RC3<>R4D30N]

Having gone through Creative's own absolutely ****ty drivers myself, they can go **** themselves. Having my sound switch randomly, with bad playback, random changes of 44.1k-192k, sound only coming out the left speaker, and the inability to record Line In?

And you're telling me the ONLY stable XP drivers for my card are from 2002? Linked from a crazy (awesome) guy on Head-Fi? Bull-****. :temper:

If I'm reading this right, he is not only making stable drivers for Vista (which Creative is not doing) but also adding (or re-allowing) features that the cards shouldn't have.***
*** It looks like the features the sound cards had in XP would "not work" in Vista. a.k.a. Creative disabled the features and made inoperable, he just simply re-enabled them.

From a legal standpoint Creative is justified in their decision, but I don't like it.

*^ I doubt he's doing this for the money, work like this takes time and effort and it's a way to show appreciation and support for the guy. However, it adds another thing that Creative can justify.

Word... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829132005
^My next card :D

It's a morality based decision, and when one man can rearrange and fix what a team of developers, that are paid on a regular salary, is doing wrong, you know something's wrong in that company.

Creative's developers obviously suck and they might have wanted to offer this guy a job instead of snubbing his whole operation. This is what happens when HARDWARE companies consider themselves as software companies. I was mad at Creative within a year after Vista was released, it doesn't take a year to produce a driver. For a company, it should take no longer than a week.

I don't see Nvidia or ATi trying to kill RivaTuner or ATiTool... Creative blows, no more products from them.

[OnDborder]

http://forums.creative.com/creativelabs/board/message?board.id=soundblaster&thread.id=116332&view=by_date_ascending&page=1

[Adragontattoo]

Ok now a bit of a change to the question

Do you all object to his releasing the drivers themselves or to the fact that he requested donations?

Damn Geforce radeon above me beat me to my next question.

Do those who object to his actions use Rivatuner or similar?

[Shiggity]

Daniel K is really a cardboard box with a drawn on face + sunglasses.

[Hazaro]

http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=554065

[MadMan007]

Legally Creative has the right to demand he stop since he took donations. They probably also disallow redistribution or reverse engineering of their software and IP, say what you will about EULAs and such. What's sad is they probably reverse-engineered his stuff since they obviously couldn't do the same thing heh.

I think it's great the guy did those things and also tihnk that Creative could have made something very positive out of it but in terms of law Creative is in the right here.

[Adragontattoo]

This may well be the correct location for the thread, I am doing my thread based on the fact that the vendor will not (claims, can not) release drivers that are fully functional for older hardware.

[Adragontattoo]

Legally Creative has the right to demand he stop since he took donations. They probably also disallow redistribution or reverse engineering of their software and IP, say what you will about EULAs and such. What's sad is they probably reverse-engineered his stuff since they obviously couldn't do the same thing heh.

I think it's great the guy did those things and also tihnk that Creative could have made something very positive out of it but in terms of law Creative is in the right here.

ok so what about the optimized drivers for Video cards? I have not heard about Nvidia or AMD coming out against the optimized drivers.

I am assuming that Creative didnt like the slap in the face of saying that "We cant get them working in Vista" or "we are working on it" but yet one guy in his spare time managed to do what Creative's entire driver team had not done in a year?

[Hazaro]

This may well be the correct location for the thread, I am doing my thread based on the fact that the vendor will not (claims, can not) release drivers that are fully functional for older hardware.

Ok

[Hazaro]

Because if the cards start working in Vista, they won't buy the new $200 models that DO work in vista.

[redrumy3]

Because if the cards start working in Vista, they won't buy the new $200 models that DO work in vista.
x-fi still have crappy drivers under vista, they still cant fix battlefield 2142 bug :X

i might get either the asus pci-e or the prelude not sure yet

[Jab-tech]

I don't have a problem with him asking for donations, he wasn't selling the product, nobody was forced into handing over cash to get drivers. I also doubt that he made great globs of cash from any of the donations.
He was basically doing what creative should have been doing for a long long time.. It just wasn't in creatives business interest to have this guy making drivers and enabling features on cards that creative had disabled in there drivers.

[Adragontattoo]

It just wasn't in creatives business interest to have this guy making drivers and enabling features on cards that creative had disabled in there drivers.


This is my feelings exactly.

Personally, I have not bought a sound card new from the store EVER, and Creative's purposeful lack of drivers and attitude regarding fully functioning drivers for free from someone else has me doubting that I will pick one up for either the new build or for the HTPC.

Sorry Creative but I tend to try to avoid spending my money with Companies that play stupid just to increase their revenue.

[Adragontattoo]

Hell lemme PM a mod to get em combined if possible.

Oh noes, my post count will go down! Oh wait Vendor has no post count.

[G3F0RC3<>R4D30N]

ok so what about the optimized drivers for Video cards? I have not heard about Nvidia or AMD coming out against the optimized drivers.

I am assuming that Creative didnt like the slap in the face of saying that "We cant get them working in Vista" or "we are working on it" but yet one guy in his spare time managed to do what Creative's entire driver team had not done in a year?

Just in clarification... It's two years, and even saying two years grants them some slack, because they knew about Vista before it came out. They are idiots, I wonder what their HQ in Singapore is like...



x-fi still have crappy drivers under vista, they still cant fix battlefield 2142 bug :X

i might get either the asus pci-e or the prelude not sure yet

That sounds like something up EA's alley... They are like Creative, never fix anything and their patches only sometimes work.

Did you see that Asus Xonar I posted previously?

[satandole666]

I have my X-Fi installed in my HTPC now. It runs Vista 32bit as well.

I haven't noticed any problems or quality issues except some crackling on one of my OTA TV stations.

Am I missing something here?

And minus the fact he asked for donations I think he was doing a great thing. Too bad legal stuff always gets in the way.

[MadMan007]

ok so what about the optimized drivers for Video cards? I have not heard about Nvidia or AMD coming out against the optimized drivers.

I am assuming that Creative didnt like the slap in the face of saying that "We cant get them working in Vista" or "we are working on it" but yet one guy in his spare time managed to do what Creative's entire driver team had not done in a year?

NV and ATi might be able to do something about it if they wanted although I don't know the details of exactly what you're talking about. That's the key though, they'd have to want to stop it. I don't know that wanting to stop it in itself makes Creative entirely evil or anything but they could have had a better reaction as well.

[jmsanders2]

legally it sounds like they are correct

the money is not the issue here, he could say that any and all donations are going to a non-profit fund to subsidize his efforts in editing drivers, then the personal profit line goes out the window

I think creative really shot themselves in the foot and (although technically probably right) for all intensive purposes are in the wrong. if they cannot support their product with drivers for vista and someone has proven to do it for free which they have threatened, they have just lost many customers and will really have to do some pr to bounce back from any and all enthusiast markets.

Edit: I must say this, that was really really stupid to post that in a public forums on a friday. I bet there are people trying to get ahold of people at creative to have this taken care of or the thread frozen and they are probably all unresponsive till tomorrow.

[redrumy3]

That sounds like something up EA's alley... They are like Creative, never fix anything and their patches only sometimes work.

Did you see that Asus Xonar I posted previously?

nope its creative and x64 with 4gb of ram or more if i leave 3gb i dont have the cracking sound in 2142 so its creative and when i use the prelude drivers by forcing it i dont get 5.1 but i get 2.1 working i dont have the sound cracking noise with my 8gb in so its deff xfi drivers, im just saving and going with either the prelude or asus card

[dark_15]

I can't confirm that Newegg is really doing this or not, but apparently Newegg is pulling off any Creative Sound Card that is labeled as Vista compatible:

http://forums.creative.com/creativelabs/board/message?board.id=soundblaster&message.id=117948#M117948

[neonlazer]

Im with Daniel, i think Creative should hire him! I think its their problem they have crap support...at least daniel cares...cause he doesnt make all the corrupt $$ creative does.

I think the VP needs to go back to school and learn economics...and learn the phrase "Think before you speak"

[Hardin]

I can't confirm that Newegg is really doing this or not, but apparently Newegg is pulling off any Creative Sound Card that is labeled as Vista compatible:

http://forums.creative.com/creativelabs/board/message?board.id=soundblaster&message.id=117948#M117948

Holy plot twist Batman!

[Adragontattoo]

IT doesnt appear that Newegg is in fact doing that, I checked this morning and managed to find at least one card that they said they were pulling listed.

[Pinky]

Thus i would NOT support creative on this front, just as i won't support any company that owns something purely to keep others from using it.

Primary issue I have is that their profit is on the physical device and not on their (crappy) software. They should be grateful people like their hardware products enough to fix their buggy (crappy) software in their spare time.

[VinnyTAMU]

This thread gives me more of a reason NOT to buy Creative products.

[Shiggity]

I feel sorry for people who have creative stock, it's not going to come back and the company is just going to hemorage money from now on until they go bankrupt or someone buys them.

Monopolies are bad mkay.

I had nothing but problems with my audigy 2 ZS in vista, onboard sound > creative at this point imo.

[rseven]

Creative has been dealing with a declining need for their products for years with the advent of quality on board sound. This public relations debacle combined with their bad rep for driver support could just end up being a stake through their heart. Considering their products of recent years, I don't think it's a great loss to anyone, but their unfortunate shareholders. Fortunately, I'm not one of them, but I have my own problems, I have Toshiba stock. :eek:

Cheers! :beer:

R7

[SuperDave1685]

Well I guess a lot of folks here haven't read up on Creative... they sued Aureal 3D into oblivion, eating up their assets and technology only to NOT incorporate it into their products. At the time in 1998, Aureal 3D had superior 3D sound technologies than creative and Creative sued them on Patent infringement, which Aureal 3D eventually won a year later. But the process left Aureal 3D stripped for cash and then Creative bought them out. Creative has had a hold on the sound card industry way too long. We are just now seeing in the past 2-3 years or so, real competition begin in the soundcard sector. This is something that Creative absolutely hates. This competition is showing all Creative's flaws for what they are- lack of willingness to help their customers.

Personally, I hope Creative looses tons of business for this. They have had crappy drivers for a while now and still refuse to do anything about it. People should have woken up when the whole X-Fi and nForce 4 crackling issue was a hot topic. That should have showed you just how Creative held its users in contempt with their " Its the motherboard chipset's fault, not ours!" mentality and response.

The fact of the matter is that Creative voluntarily pulled itself from the NASDAQ listing as of Sept 2007. At that time, they were flirting with their lowest stock value ever. They closed at $3.58, just $0.08 above their lowest value of $3.50 in 1996. They obviously weren't committed enough to divulge all the strict reporting requirements that the NASDAQ has on its trading companies, so they got out of the American IPO markets and are strictly trading on the Singapore Exchange now. Another example of Creative's lack of commitment.

Daniel_K has done nothing wrong in my eyes. He was simply fixing what Creative refused to do and probably purposefully did. Albeit he was asking for donations, most driver modders/programmers ask for some donations. You don't hear a big stink about Omega's drivers and the donations he's received, or DNA, or Tweaksrus, do you? No. Its because of Creative's "screw you" attitude on support of the customer. If they can't make money in the process of supporting you, then they just won't. I highly doubt Daniel_K made a decent amount of money writing his drivers. In comparison to what Creative charges for its soundcards, the donations he received are nil, notta, nothing. I understand the fact that he reverse engineered Creative's IP, BUT, in my eyes, he was simply doing something that Creative themselves simply could not, would not, and refused to.

The Creative card I have in my rig right now is the last Creative card I'm buying ever again. Even in Windows XP, I still get sound crashes in BF2 for no reason. Its Prime95 stable for 12+ hours and F@H SMP stable, but for some reason, all my crashes feature a looping sound.... Hmmmmm.... Coincidence? I think not.

[rseven]

Well put, SuperDave! Two thumbs up. :thup::thup:
It emphasizes a point I continue to make here in the forum that all companies are not the same. There are good, bad and in between. Creative happens to be one of those bad ones.

Cheers! :beer:

R7

[VinnyTAMU]

I love to see threads that bring awareness to such topics, I can honestly say that because of this thread and the thread on the creative website that I will not be purchasing another Creative product for the foreseeable future.

[UnrealAlex]

Damn, newegg gets more loyalty from me for going along with this.

[jivetrky]

Damn, newegg gets more loyalty from me for going along with this.

I'd like to see some confirmation that it was really Newegg and not some Schmoe before I'd offer praise. Seems weird that they would just post it like that in a forum.

[G3F0RC3<>R4D30N]

I feel sorry for people who have creative stock, it's not going to come back and the company is just going to hemorage money from now on until they go bankrupt or someone buys them.

Monopolies are bad mkay.

I had nothing but problems with my audigy 2 ZS in vista, onboard sound > creative at this point imo.

Audigy 2 ZS was the best card they ever made(when speaking hardware and ability). This X-Fi crap they make now just repeats the same stuff that they had in the Audigy, except they have broken the cards up into categorization, ie. XtremeGamer, Xtreme Audio... I think they can just take their products and shove them up....<--you get the point :)

I have Daniel_K's back in this 100%. Creative may have full legal rights to this but, legal isn't always right. I am sure if this makes it to CNN or Fox, the media will paint an awful picture for Creative in the enthusiast market but, the regular EU market will not care at all. I hope Daniel_K starts his own company and buys out Creative for a mediocre amount just to put the pricks in their place.

[OnDborder]

You know, the person that posted that on their forums should be fired.
If it was a "legal" issue with Daniel, the legal staff should have taken care of it with a cease and desist order.
But it looks like Creative didn't seem to be too concerned about customer satifaction on driver support and compatibility..
Sounds alot like what Motorola's ceo is doing to that company. Too focused on the dividends than making good products.

[VinnyTAMU]

You know, the person that posted that on their forums should be fired.
If it was a "legal" issue with Daniel, the legal staff should have taken care of it with a cease and desist order.
But it looks like Creative didn't seem to be too concerned about customer satifaction on driver support and compatibility..
Sounds alot like what Motorola's ceo is doing to that company. Too focused on the dividends than making good products.

Exactly, why would they want to generate all that negative feedback. I mean its past 120 pages all slamming Creative.

[Hazaro]

They should of just PM'd him.

[thideras]

This is what you call "backfire" :D

I hope Creative suffers, I'd love to see them crawling on their knees just to get through (actually doing work)...it will be good for them!

[MadMan007]

I feel sorry for people who have creative stock, it's not going to come back and the company is just going to hemorage money from now on until they go bankrupt or someone buys them.

Monopolies are bad mkay.

I had nothing but problems with my audigy 2 ZS in vista, onboard sound > creative at this point imo.

Anyone who continued to hold Creative stock well AFTER the tech bubble burst deserves to lose lots of money. They should stick to keeping up with inflation with CDs :p

Creative has been dealing with a declining need for their products for years with the advent of quality on board sound. This public relations debacle combined with their bad rep for driver support could just end up being a stake through their heart. Considering their products of recent years, I don't think it's a great loss to anyone, but their unfortunate shareholders. Fortunately, I'm not one of them, but I have my own problems, I have Toshiba stock. :eek:

Cheers! :beer:

R7

It's hard to call onboard quality, it's just not as craptastic as it used to be and is sufficient for the majority of users, even those who listen to multimedia semi-casually or haven't ever had the pelasure of listening to really nice gear.

You know who should hire Daniel_K...Auzentech ;) They know they are a niche company and don't act otherwise but with custom drivers officially sanctioned by Creative or others like C-Media they could take their special hardware to another level. Asus is providing some good competition which is nice to see especially given how Vista handles sound. Can't wait for Creative to sue them over the emulated EAX Asus has touted recently :rolleyes: I wonder how Asus can promote that, legally wouldn't they need Creative's approval to put it on boxes as an official feature? Then again it won't matter in a few years nothing will use EAX.

I've got an Auzentech Prelude which had a bug or two but got fixed fairly quickly and I'm still pleased with the sound quality but for multimedia I'd say a USB DAC or optical out to an amp or a receiver is as good a deal.

[twEEkerAreUs]

Creative should of just hired him or told him this privately. Posting it publicly is such terrible PR. The best Creative sound card I've had to date has been the X-Fi, of course I don't use Vista so maybe that's why.

I can't blame Creative for going on the defensive since he asked for donations (Stupid move on his part), they are all about making money just like every other business.

[jivetrky]

I agree that is was really dumb of them to post something like this in their public forum.

I do kind of hope that this really hurts Creative (and with the really big buzz it's created I think it possibly could). If they bomb then hopefully there can be some kind of industry wide standard for 3D audio not proprietary EAX. Of course it'll suck for games that are already coded for EAX. But perhaps if they tank someone could be good enough to buy them up and do the right thing. I just don't like that I have to buy a Creative card if I want the best gaming card. Perhaps if we could get some good competition and make this similar to ATI/Nvidia or AMD/Intel, it could make things better for us in the end. /wishful thinking.

[greyharte]

Siding with Creative.

I *think* the fact that he is supposedly asking for donations infringes on it even more.

this is the key ... if he wasnt actively soliciting for donations/payment ... this would be a non issue and put creative in the hotseat for deliberately being jackasses ...

by actively seeking recompense for his efforts creative is well w/in thier rights to come down on him w/ the preverbial hammer

frankly i thought that the letter did exhibit some restraint and has given the guy a chance to desist w/o legal action

however as a consumer ... i wont be buying creative nor recomending it as system builder for a long time

[greyharte]

ok so what about the optimized drivers for Video cards? I have not heard about Nvidia or AMD coming out against the optimized drivers.

I am assuming that Creative didnt like the slap in the face of saying that "We cant get them working in Vista" or "we are working on it" but yet one guy in his spare time managed to do what Creative's entire driver team had not done in a year?

ATI has never willingly opened code source for their drivers ... thats why they take so long to mature - nvidia has - its in the manufaturers best interest not to keep supporting the older cards sad to say tho nvidia's unified drivers do

the peeps that really need to be slapped BIG time about unified drivers are the printer manufaturers starting w/ HP ... infact i wish someone would edit and rewrite those

[NettieZoom]

As much as I hate Creative as a whole I would have to side with them in this case.

[jivetrky]

this is the key ... if he wasnt actively soliciting for donations/payment ... this would be a non issue and put creative in the hotseat for deliberately being jackasses ...

by actively seeking recompense for his efforts creative is well w/in thier rights to come down on him w/ the preverbial hammer

frankly i thought that the letter did exhibit some restraint and has given the guy a chance to desist w/o legal action

however as a consumer ... i wont be buying creative nor recomending it as system builder for a long time

I agree. If he was just doing it and distributing it for free I wouldn't see any problem with it and I would almost resort the "boo's, hiss's and F-Creative's" that everyone else is. I still think that he was doing a good thing, just that he shouldn't have asked for money for it. If Omega and all those video driver modders ask for donations as well, I'd say the same thing about them. Just because they are doing a good thing for everybody doesn't mean that it's right.
I think it's a good thing that I could go and get a TV show from a torrent if I chose to do so. I don't have a Tivo or any way to record them if I miss them. And the network's attempts at providing their shows online is pretty terrible so far. But, while I think it's a good thing that they are available this way, I still believe that it's wrong on an official stance. It's the same with this situation. Though I think it's really a good thing, officially I'd still say it's wrong. -Though I think Creative shouldn't have handled it differently; they made a big flub in that and I kind of hope they get some blowback from it.

[redrumy3]

Here what daniel had to say

ALchemy
It all started when Creative released the first beta of ALchemy for X-Fi cards, saying it used X-Fi's advanced capabilities (EAX5).
After some investigation, I've found an EAX5.0 check and patched it... and it worked!
Sometime later, they released the final version of ALchemy X-Fi and the paid version of ALchemy Audigy.
I was realy mad at them, they didn't release a new Audigy driver and were charging Audigy owners for a software that runs on top of bugged drivers? What is the point of that?
Then I modified the X-Fi "free" version of ALchemy, not the paid version.
I did the same with the later versions, but when they released the 1.00.11, I couldn't patch it anymore.
So I bought it, just for the sake of it.
Well, I did manage to patch the latest version of ALchemy X-Fi to run on any card, without even removing Safecast, but I'm done with that.


The Audigy drivers
They took several days, countless Vista reinstalls.
Creative purposedly modified the Audigy drivers to disable some features when Vista is detected and also purposedly introduced some bugs to prevent some XP utilities from running.
I did a complete analysis of the driver to determine where all the checks and bugs were introduced and started modding.
Features that I've successfully enabled:
- Dolby/DTS decoding (originally discovered by another Creative forum member, but I've explained how to use it)
- CMSS, CMSS2 and Stereo Surround (originally only "CMSS" was available, this setting also affects ALchemy/OpenAL, so it is really useful)
- Advanced EQ and Special FX presets
- DVD Audio
- Hardware MIDI synthetizer (I wrote a small utility that automatically detects and changes the default Vista MIDI Synth during driver install or can change it later using its GUI. Some media players lets you choose the MIDI synthesizer)
- Equalizer (with preset saving, very hard to accomplish, had to deal with bugs in Creative software and use my creativity to find a workaround).
- WaveRT (a Microsoft replacement for ASIO, however I don't know if it really works or not)


The Live!/Live! 5.1 drivers
Creative have always released UDA (Unified Driver Architeture) drivers.
They purposedly ruined the Live! support in Vista: 2.1 speakers setting resulted in distorted sound.
After some investigation, I discovered the culprit module and replaced it with one from the last XP version and the problem was fixed.
In the later releases, Bass Management, Equalizer and EAX effects using software processing and Hardware MIDI support were added.
There was also an ALchemy for Live! cards.



The X-Fi drivers
I've added the following improvements: Hardware MIDI and WaveRT.
I didn't have a X-Fi to test, so modding was then limited to these features.

The Audigy LS/SE/Value/Live! 24-bit drivers
Officially, they lack Bass Management, Equalizer and EAx effects, once available in XP drivers.
I've found that the Audio Center utility (originally from the Vista Audigy Advanced MB drivers) worked just fine with these cards, so I made it available.
Also fixed an annoying bug present in the official drivers that cause the speaker type changing to Full Range speakers on reboot (disabling Bass Management).

The X-Fi Xtreme Audio drivers
Have the same speaker type bug. I fixed it.


Gameport support pack for Vista
Allows a limited number of gameport controllers to work on the x86 version of Windows Vista.


What Creative didn't like
I've learned how Creative enables or disables a feature for a specific model.
Alchemy:
My last ALchemy release (1.00.08) was complately unlocked and could be used with any sound device from any vendor.
Audigy cards:
Successfully enabled the software-based X-Fi Crystalizer for use with Audigy cards.
X-Fi:
Got Dolby Digital Live enabled on any X-Fi card. To clarify, I still didn't manage to enable DDL on Audigy cards.
A friend of mine bought a X-Fi, so I could test it, it really works.
The only current X-Fi based card that supports DDL is the Auzentech Prelude.
The P17 to Xtreme Audio mod
P17 is the codiname for a simple PCI audio controller that powers the Audigy LS/SE/Value, Live! 24-bit and X-Fi Xtreme Audio host-based soundcards.
Completely modded the P17 drivers to transform any Audigy LS/SE/Value and Live! 24-bit into a X-Fi Xtreme Audio (enabling Crystalizer).


Modding is OK
I don't think there was something wrong with mods themselves.
Modding is a common practice among enthusiasts and I don't recall some company threatning a modder, unless you allow an exclusive feature to be used with competitor products (ie: SLI on non-NVIDIA chipsers or ALchemy on competitor products, as I've said before).
Remember the Promise Ultra to Fasttrak mod? It was even published on a well known review site.
There was also the GeForce to Quadro mod, the NVIDIA nForce 4 to SLI mod, also published on review sites.

What I did wrong
I've asked for donations.
Do I really need the money? No, thank God I don't.
I thought it would be ok to ask for donations so I could buy new hardware to support.
I did buy some hardware: an used Live! 5.1 for ~$15 and a new Audigy SE for $60.
Computer hardware is really expensive here in Brazil.
An X-Fi Xtreme Gamer costs about $240 here, with taxes and shipping, The same card can be bought for ~$80 in the US.
I just can't spend my money buying new hardware that I won't even use.
Even the features I've enabled, I don't use.
Later I tried to encourage donations to release the DDL feature for X-Fi and Crystalizer for Audigy.
I said something like "the more people donate, the faster I'll release".
This was even worse, but I was so eager to modding that I didn't think straight. I was hoping to get a X-Fi asap.
While I did ask for donations, once released, the downloads would be public.
I do recognize that I deserve some criticism for that.
To date, I've got $146, with amounts ranging from $1 to $50 (this value is still uncleared).
Reversing ALchemy was also wrong, I know. But I reiterate, what is the point of improving ALchemy and changing for it, when it requires an improved driver? It was my protest against Creative.


What Creative did wrong
- They publicly threatened me, just to show their arrogance.
If they had contacted me by e-mail or private message I would do the same thing (remove everything) and no one would know about their insatisfaction.
- Removed everything I posted in the forums, even if unrelated to the "forbidden" stuff.
If they can't provide better drivers, let people make their own choice.
- They did not recognize my hard work.
I've been supporting about every Creative PCI soundcard, would even support USB devices if I had one of them.
To date, the Audigy Vista Support Pack was downloaded about 20,000 times.


The current situation
DDL encoder and Crystalizer were not publicly released.
I've deleted the P17 to Xtreme Audio mod and ALchemy from FileFront (where I store the files).
I've been told they will allow me to continue with my mods, except the "forbidden" ones.
I'm also allowed to receive donations.
Download of my mods
http://hosted.filefront.com/braziliantech/

[TTP]

nope its creative and x64 with 4gb of ram or more if i leave 3gb i dont have the cracking sound in 2142 so its creative and when i use the prelude drivers by forcing it i dont get 5.1 but i get 2.1 working i dont have the sound cracking noise with my 8gb in so its deff xfi drivers, im just saving and going with either the prelude or asus card

I have none of the issues you described with my XFi platinum and Vista business 64 with 4Gb DDR2. It's been a solid sound board for me.

I think DanielK's driver set were only applicable to the older audigy sound cards.:confused:

[VinnyTAMU]

Amazing but this topic just came up on slashdot!

LINK (http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/01/1938207&from=rss)

[maxfly]

this gent has talent.i cant imagine his money woes will last much longer.somebody will inevitably recognize his skill and make him a offer.

btw i dont care for creatives tactics one bit.the sooner they fall the sooner we will have truly innovative products to choose from.

[redrumy3]

I have none of the issues you described with my XFi platinum and Vista business 64 with 4Gb DDR2. It's been a solid sound board for me.

yea i know some ppl dont get it some do most ppl with xtremegamer card has the problem some dont so idk..im just probably going to get a prelude or asus card :D

[Adragontattoo]

http://forums.creative.com/creativelabs/board/message?board.id=soundblaster&thread.id=120975

Well Creative responded and is backpeddling like mad, too bad they deleted the original thread and are now trying to make it sound like a misunderstanding.

Creative, the damage has been done. The mistakes, inactions and outright fallacies you have presented have been revealed and examined. I dont claim to have one bit of a clue of how to rectify the situation, the internet has a very long memory, I doubt that the backlash will continue as it has been going but I do know that many people are sure to remember this and bring it up at any chance they get.

[Audioaficionado]

http://forums.creative.com/creativelabs/board/message?board.id=soundblaster&thread.id=116332&view=by_date_ascending&page=1
Why hasn't Creative deleted this thread yet :confused:

Maybe they want to see how deep this rabbit hole goes?

Creative is within their legal rights to not write Vista drivers and force everyone with Vista to upgrade. They can also cripple the cards as they see fit.

So unless someone writes cleanroom drivers, Creative can sue the pants off anyone like Danial doing so even if they don't take one red cent for donations.

However people can vote with their wallets and buy other brands.

I hope these enhanced functional drivers make to to a server in a nation that doesn't have to worry about any legal actions from Creative ;)

Edit: looks like Creative might be charging money for Vista functionality.
http://www.edbott.com/weblog/?p=1726

[Hardin]

That ed bott article is almost a year old, and Adragontattoo it looks like that thread was deleted as well. I'm getting a message not found error, but I did manage to see it before it was deleted.

[Adragontattoo]

Why hasn't Creative deleted this thread yet :confused:

Maybe they want to see how deep this rabbit hole goes?

Creative is within their legal rights to not write Vista drivers and force everyone with Vista to upgrade. They can also cripple the cards as they see fit.

So unless someone writes cleanroom drivers, Creative can sue the pants off anyone like Danial doing so even if they don't take one red cent for donations.

However people can vote with their wallets and buy other brands.

I hope these enhanced functional drivers make to to a server in a nation that doesn't have to worry about any legal actions from Creative ;)

Edit: looks like Creative might be charging money for Vista functionality.
http://www.edbott.com/weblog/?p=1726


I dont disagree that ANY vendor is within their rights to refuse to write drivers for the next OS. At some point legacy needs to be retired, what I DO object to, is a vendor crippling drivers to FORCE an upgrade.

Suing anyone who release a driver modification to (re)enable a function of a card while legal is probably one of the worst PR moves a company can make.

[maxfly]

I'm getting a message not found error, but I did manage to see it before it was deleted.

same here,anyone happen to copy the apology?

[AlabamaCajun]

Check out the link on Wired, creative got it's n*ts tied in a not on this one by the Wired comm.
I realize the letter is the same as the link by the OP and others but I just wanted to reader responses on Wired.

http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/04/daniel_k-who-fi.html

[aaronjb]

As someone said elsewhere, Creative Labs is and always has been a marketing/rebranding company. They have few engineers on staff, and their entire business is based around planned obsolescence.

After purchasing a new X-fi and dealing with pre-Alpha quality drivers for nearly a year, I've decided to look elsewhere for my next sound card. That, and finding out the CL simply disabled Audigy features in software under Vista, is the last straw.

Well, that, and the price gouging, proprietary jacks, incompatibility with their own speaker offerings, poor support...

[theELVISCERATOR]

I will def avoid creative in the future...and have had numerous problems sometimes fixable sometimes not with all of my creative cards...

[MadMan007]

It's funny how Creative has done some good fixes relatively fast for Auzentech when they've requested it and yet never bothered for their own card sales. I wonder if they're contractually obligated or just paid per time for that? In any case it shows that even Creative itself could do this stuff right they just don't bother, I guess they only care about the hardware sale.

[ScottinIndy]

What a P.R. nightmare for Creative, When the PR genius at Creative posted his scare tactics post, Daniel should have just posted a spreadsheet tracking his time spent fixing Creatives P.O.S. drivers and requested financial reimbursement.
I actually like my X-fi extreme card, Of course I'm using it on XP 32bit, I do think I will look elsewhere when I purchase my next soundcard.

[eggyhustles]

I think creative is only mad at the fact that he is taking donations..i wouldn't like it either if someone modded something in my product and was accepting money for it..while creative was terrible to disable drivers so they wouldn't work in vista he shouldn't be accepting money..

[AlabamaCajun]

I think creative is only mad at the fact that he is taking donations..i wouldn't like it either if someone modded something in my product and was accepting money for it..while creative was terrible to disable drivers so they wouldn't work in vista he shouldn't be accepting money..

So covering your expenses is ... er..wrong :shrug:

-----

After looking at this thread, reminds me of HP "Planned Obsolescence". They sell ink so who cares about XP64 drivers. The last Creative board I had was a pain 512PCI was donated to Goodwill along with 4-5 HP printers.

[vixro]

I agree with Creative's side. Hacking the drivers to work with other products IS stealing. Making them work how they are intended by fixing creative's problems is perfectly ok with me. Asking for donations is also not OK.



Covering your expenses for stealing IS wrong. He was using creative's driver, that creative made and has a license to, on hardware it wasn't intended to work with that Creative doesn't get money for.

[burningcpu]

Um, creative is mad because he is messing up their artificial obscolescence plan, calling him out for taking donations was just a ploy to get people on their side. And from what I've seen it is working pretty well.
Legal or not, Creative's management looks really shady after pulling this stunt. It will be at the front of my mind the next time I purchase a sound card or mp3 player.

[dealmaster]

I've finally had it with the constant BSODs I was getting in Vista with my Audigy 2 ZS. I thought it was an unstable overclock until I realized that every time the computer crashed, it was accompanied with very strange noises. Yanked that crappy card out of there and the BSODs stopped. This combined with them intentionally breaking many features of the card in Vista, then attempting to CHARGE me to get those features back, and seeing that as OK is the last straw in my mind.

Never Creative, never again.

That and their purposeful incompatibilities with front panel connectors ****es me off as well. I have headphone ports up front, I'd like to use them!

While Daniel shouldn't have solicited donations, as has been pointed out, he was trying to fix a really dirty situation caused by a nasty company screwing over their customers.

[Aktunka]

Unfortunately, it is Creative's hardware and software and they are the ones to determine how they choose to support or not to support their products. Same as if anyone else here is running their own business it is all your choice for how you run it.

For me, this is just validation for why I stopped buying Creative products. The last card I purchased was an Audigy 2 after my SB Live stopped working right and that had been purchased after my previous card had stopped working right due to driver issues. For about the past year and a half I have been using on board sound with very little noticeable difference from the Creative cards, but there was some there. I had been looking for a new sound card about 2 days before this thread was posted and this helped me make the determination that I do not need to waste the money on another Creative card. Then at Woot they had a Razer 7.1 card come up for about a third of the normal price at Newegg so I had to make that jump. Here is hoping for the best.

Anyhow, whether we all agree with Creative or not on this issue doesn't really matter. We need to speak with our wallets to make a difference. If you like Creative and how they have handled this, continue to buy their products. If you don't like it, don't buy from them. If they see a big enough drop then they will notice it, but not otherwise.