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MR-FIX-IT
05-15-08, 11:52 AM
I've been reading alot about magnetics, and Neodymium Magnets...

I'm sure there has to be a way to generate free energy, if you get the right match up... I'm not a scientist. But I do have pretty good logic..
The laws of physics could be wrong here.

If you look up Magnet motor, you'll find many good attempts in trying to get a perpetual motor working without energy.

The more pricey magnets are very strong, with a pull force of 360Lbs, and can seriously injure you.

I've been looking at a few types and I think I have found the answer to this Perpetual motion issue...

You're probably saying NFW dude! How can you be the only one who has thought of it... But I've reviewed many documents, and none clear state my way of doing it...

Take some time to read and view some video's and then reply back... Its rather intriguing to say the least...

EmAn
05-15-08, 12:02 PM
I have been kicking some ideas around in my head and I have seen a fountain that is near perpetual...

It is similar to this diagram here

http://www.fightingfeynmans.com/vault/sciday/3/fountain%20%281%29.bmp

When I have time I am going to try and make one of these and see how it goes...

seadave77
05-15-08, 12:10 PM
In this forum, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!

Good luck to you. Really I mean it. But don't be offended when I say, I'll have to see it to believe it.

MR-FIX-IT
05-15-08, 12:10 PM
I have not made any diagrams yet, but will soon.

MR-FIX-IT
05-15-08, 12:11 PM
Good luck to you. Really I mean it. But don't be offended when I say, I'll have to see it to believe it.

I agree with that statement 100%

Which is why I think I found the answer...

Elif Tymes
05-15-08, 01:33 PM
See there is a difference between perpetual motion and harnessing currently unharnessed modes of energy.

Gravitics and magnetics, IMHO, is where harnessing untapped energh could be really useful. The earth has a huge magnetic and gravitational field.

Why aren't we using that?

Mr. Roboto
05-15-08, 01:39 PM
I have been kicking some ideas around in my head and I have seen a fountain that is near perpetual...

It is similar to this diagram here

http://www.fightingfeynmans.com/vault/sciday/3/fountain%20%281%29.bmp

When I have time I am going to try and make one of these and see how it goes...

The problem with most water based perp motion devices is that the water evaporates. If you have to keep adding water, is it truly perpetual?

Quailane
05-15-08, 02:14 PM
See there is a difference between perpetual motion and harnessing currently unharnessed modes of energy.

Gravitics and magnetics, IMHO, is where harnessing untapped energh could be really useful. The earth has a huge magnetic and gravitational field.

Why aren't we using that?

Gravity and magnetic fields are not sources of energy. You cannot convert gravity or a magnetic field into energy. You can use gravity in form of a hydroelectric dam to generate electricity, and only in similar ways. Gravity is a one way street as far as getting useful work is concerned. A magnetic field is useless for energy preduction. You can only get energy out of magnetic flux, or a change in the magnetic field. Unless you put in some energy, you can't get that magnetic field to change.

Perpetual motion machines are impossible. Not even the moon is in perpetual motion.

EmAn
05-15-08, 02:45 PM
The problem with most water based perp motion devices is that the water evaporates. If you have to keep adding water, is it truly perpetual?

We could try and keep it in a very humid and cool environment (sealed container perhaps) where the relative humidity is 100%.

Xenocide
05-15-08, 02:47 PM
I know how I am going to get my free energy. Just make a big coil and throw it under some high voltage lines.

Too bad some court ruled that the field generated by power companies is their property too :( LAME

Diddyu
05-15-08, 02:59 PM
With the fountain, it wont even start. Think of taking a length of tubing and a male to male coupler. the tube is then filled with water and made into a closed loop. That is basically what you have, but with added resistance from air friction and splashing water. The three bottle loop is akin to taking the tubing with water in it, forming a letter U with it, and somehow the water jumps from one of the hoses, through the air, perfectly into the other hose, and back out the other end again. As for the magnetic one, im not sure on what you intend to do, but as said before,
In this forum, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
Id like to see what you have working though, it may have some other purpose than just sitting there and spinning forever.
IIRC, the only "perpetual" motion machine involves moving electrons through a super conductive "wire" in a short circuit. Once the super conductor gets above a certain temperature it becomes resistive again.

Frodo Baggins
05-15-08, 03:33 PM
Perpetual motion machines are impossible.

Really? Are you sure?

I'm afraid you're wrong, my friend. The jury is still out on this one. Perpetual motion violates either the first or second law of thermodynamics. But while these two laws are backed by experimental and theoretical justification, it doesn't mean they can't be wrong or misinterpreted. The mathematical example, here, is the 19th century revelation that there are different kinds of geometries and that we may not be living in a space where lines are 'straight'. As for the original OP's claim, I'll stay out of it, except to mention that people who make revolutionary claims of paradigm shifts on forums aren't taken seriously. In fact, there are several Crackpot Indices (http://primes.utm.edu/notes/crackpot.html) for this (I especially love #16 under Hubris -- minus 20 points for naming something after yourself. E.g. "The Frodo Result", "The Hobbit Transform", and yes, "Team Frodo".)

All this to say, if you have revolutionary ideas -- probably a computer overclocking forum isn't the right place to cultivate your research.

FireMogle
05-15-08, 03:37 PM
IIRC, the only "perpetual" motion machine involves moving electrons through a super conductive "wire" in a short circuit. Once the super conductor gets above a certain temperature it becomes resistive again.

Even then the electrons will reach equilibrium at some point and motion will stop. Friction only speeds up the process.

As stated magnets do not produce energy at all... period. the fields they make can transfer energy but you have to add energy into the equation to get that transfer. In hydroelectric dams the sun is the source of the power, it does the work and the energy is stored as water above the turbines, then that energy is released when it flows downhill.

But good luck in your project and re-writing physics and all. Just remember what you learn in the process so when you see someone else trying you can tell them why it won't work.

Diddyu
05-15-08, 03:48 PM
Actually, the definition of a superconductor is something that has 0.000... resistance, no resistance at all.
http://www.chem.ox.ac.uk/vrchemistry/super/default.html

FireMogle
05-15-08, 03:58 PM
Actually, the definition of a superconductor is something that has 0.000... resistance, no resistance at all.
http://www.chem.ox.ac.uk/vrchemistry/super/default.html

Yes, and equilibrium will still occur. Voltage works by electrons moving from a negative charge to a more positive charge. Eventually they will evenly populate the wire or whatever you use... superconducting or no.

Shelnutt2
05-15-08, 04:17 PM
As stated magnets do not produce energy at all... period. the fields they make can transfer energy but you have to add energy into the equation to get that transfer.

What about the Hall Effect and MagnetoHydroDynamic (MHD) generators? They use magnets and the right hand rule to create electricity from flowing electrons.

Maybe you argue that they don't produce the energy directly, they can sure help. I'll also admit you have to get the electrons flowing first for the hall effect..i.e. put energy into it.

FireMogle
05-15-08, 04:53 PM
What about the Hall Effect and MagnetoHydroDynamic (MHD) generators? They use magnets and the right hand rule to create electricity from flowing electrons.

Maybe you argue that they don't produce the energy directly, they can sure help. I'll also admit you have to get the electrons flowing first for the hall effect..i.e. put energy into it.

I dont think either of these produce energy, or even help. In fact I would go as far as to argue that nothing that is known to exist can.

MHD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MHD_generator)

Hall Effect (http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/mw2_ge/kap_2/backbone/r2_1_3.html)

Elif Tymes
05-15-08, 05:33 PM
Gravity and magnetic fields are not sources of energy. You cannot convert gravity or a magnetic field into energy. You can use gravity in form of a hydroelectric dam to generate electricity, and only in similar ways. Gravity is a one way street as far as getting useful work is concerned. A magnetic field is useless for energy preduction. You can only get energy out of magnetic flux, or a change in the magnetic field. Unless you put in some energy, you can't get that magnetic field to change.

Perpetual motion machines are impossible. Not even the moon is in perpetual motion.

Everything is a source of energy. Now whether harnessing that source is as simple as a direct conversion or not is another matter :).

Take a magnetic field, in order to generate electricity from a magnetic field you simply spin something metal inside of it. Is the magnetic field a "source" of energy? By some definitions, yes. It is not energy itself, however.

Do I know how to harness gravitational pull to generate useful work? yes! Drop a book on a spider! ;).

Admittedly I'm dry on how to harness these potential energy sources, I still believe they are sources that could be exploited with sufficient advances in science and technology.

Therefore it is difficult for me to poo poo an idea which has the potential to generate work (mostly) indefinitely.

Fusion/Fission both appear to be the most effective forms of creating Energy, IMHO. It's simply a matter of harnessing the reactions properly and disposing of the waste appropriately.

I'm thinking disposable rockets being shot into the sun with radioactive cargo... ;)

thegreek
05-15-08, 05:50 PM
I also had the same idea, take a look at this video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=dYA5MA2BgtA

here you can see the magnet actually going all around up until the end and it stops becuase it doesn't have that little extra push. my idea is to pump (pulse) just enough energy to get it "over the hump" to make a complete revolution and it will spin forever.

the question now is would it output more energy then it needs to use to get it over the hump? if you generate a little more energy than is needed for the pulse you create free energy.

thegreek
05-15-08, 06:02 PM
my other idea was this

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e3/ge0rgieee/825aaa99.jpg

that's a closed water loop with a generator on top connected to a water blade. The thing on the bottom is a pump. It basically pumps water from the res to the top where it sprays water on a blade causing it to turn. You run the pump on solar power (will only work in the sun). Obviously this isn't very efficient but it does create free energy.


EDIT: this is an inside shot of how it might look like

http://www.freewebs.com/inhomegen/harris-wheel.jpg

4od
05-15-08, 06:29 PM
my other idea was this

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e3/ge0rgieee/825aaa99.jpg

that's a closed water loop with a generator on top connected to a water blade. The thing on the bottom is a pump. It basically pumps water from the res to the top where it sprays water on a blade causing it to turn. You run the pump on solar power (will only work in the sun). Obviously this isn't very efficient but it does create free energy.


EDIT: this is an inside shot of how it might look like

http://www.freewebs.com/inhomegen/harris-wheel.jpg

Well then your energy is from the sun. Why not just use a solar panel in the first place?

thegreek
05-15-08, 06:37 PM
Well then your energy is from the sun. Why not just use a solar panel in the first place?

you're right, I thought I can build this with some pvc and tubing from home depot vs the $$$$ solar panels. it was an idea I had, didn't actually try it out.

FireMogle
05-15-08, 08:27 PM
Everything is a source of energy. Now whether harnessing that source is as simple as a direct conversion or not is another matter :).

Take a magnetic field, in order to generate electricity from a magnetic field you simply spin something metal inside of it. Is the magnetic field a "source" of energy? By some definitions, yes. It is not energy itself, however.

Do I know how to harness gravitational pull to generate useful work? yes! Drop a book on a spider! ;).

Admittedly I'm dry on how to harness these potential energy sources, I still believe they are sources that could be exploited with sufficient advances in science and technology.

Therefore it is difficult for me to poo poo an idea which has the potential to generate work (mostly) indefinitely.

Fusion/Fission both appear to be the most effective forms of creating Energy, IMHO. It's simply a matter of harnessing the reactions properly and disposing of the waste appropriately.

I'm thinking disposable rockets being shot into the sun with radioactive cargo... ;)

The source of energy in your magnet example is whatever is spinning the metal, the source of energy in your gravity example is you(or whatever did the work to move the book against gravity).

Fusion/Fission do not create energy, they release it from atoms. E=MC^2 (Energy released is equal to the mass of the object times the constant of the speed of light squared) it that puts off alot of it. :)


you're right, I thought I can build this with some pvc and tubing from home depot vs the $$$$ solar panels. it was an idea I had, didn't actually try it out.

Its a nice project that could do some work, but solar cells are more efficient. If you are going that route it may be better to make it as a solar water heater as opposed to an electric generator,

Foxie3a
05-15-08, 08:31 PM
Are you trying to "make something out of nothing", or are you trying to just make more than you started with? I don't think this has been clearly defined by anyone.

Elif Tymes
05-15-08, 10:28 PM
Yes, Energy cannot be created or destroyed, you're arguing semantics here man.

When I say "Creating" energy I mean "transferring into a usable form"

Quailane
05-16-08, 12:47 AM
Yes, Energy cannot be created or destroyed, you're arguing semantics here man.

When I say "Creating" energy I mean "transferring into a usable form"

But there is no "magnetic energy" or "gravitational energy" to be tapped.

Foxie3a
05-16-08, 03:21 AM
But there is no "magnetic energy" or "gravitational energy" to be tapped.

I suppose you would need to "capture" energy from the movement of an object that is being acted upon by magnetism or gravity.

But the title talks about a perpetual motion machine. If we're adding electricity to make it move, then we might as well call myself a perpetual motion machine. The point is that it is 100% or greater efficient, which kind of goes against the rules. You can't have solar panel attached to it, that is cheating. :)

I suppose that even air is affected by gravity since it likes to remain on the top of water... At least I think that would be gravity helping the water push down and get under the air... or maybe it's something else, I wouldn't know.

This all really does interest me and I only wish I had ever taken some sort of physics class. I have done some thinking, and so far only one thing comes to mind that I can't instantly say wouldn't work. This has to do with the water picture uploaded a few posts up...

What if created one of tanks of water, and completely sealed it up and filled it all the way up with water, make sure there are no leaks... ;)

Then somehow shoot some air in there, more air than would normally flat in there on its own. I suppose the air would float up to the top eventually, but if there was "too much" water in there, could it create enough pressure on the water to push it down and up and out the nozzle that has some sort of flappers that spin around? When the water squirts out that nozzle it'll fall back down to where it originally was, and hopefully under the pressure would go through again. Probably be a pretty slow process, but if you kept it fully sealed, would it work? It would probably even be slower than this icon of this guy pounding his head against the brick wall, :bang head .... HAHA.

Probably be pretty tough to create something like that. You would need a see through tank, and also one that is strong enough to handle the pressure.

I don't claim to understand any of this or that I have thought up anything special. Just having fun. What are your thoughts on that?

Edit: Oh, and just for laughs, here is the first true perpetual motion machine! It spins forever! lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aJTmzEdb_8&feature=related

aja
05-16-08, 04:48 AM
Water based devices are doomed before they start. No fully inviscuous fluid exists, meaning that energy is lost internally to the system as soon as the fluid has any kind of motion.

Any energy losses prevent the system from working - thermal, sound, light, you name it. Splashing water converts some energy to sound. Evaporating water draws heat from the main body. Mechanical devices produce heat and have frictional forces acting within.

And even if you create a perpetual motion device - what do you do with it? As soon as you tap into the delicate balance it will slow down and stop.

I think time is much better spent researching current energy needs - different fuels, more efficient combustion engines and electric motors and most of all better battery technology

just wanted to share this site while I'm at it:

http://amasci.com/unew.html

and free energy section here:

http://amasci.com/freenrg/fefaq.html

MR-FIX-IT
05-16-08, 07:41 AM
I suppose you would need to "capture" energy from the movement of an object that is being acted upon by magnetism or gravity.

But the title talks about a perpetual motion machine. If we're adding electricity to make it move, then we might as well call myself a perpetual motion machine. The point is that it is 100% or greater efficient, which kind of goes against the rules. You can't have solar panel attached to it, that is cheating. :)

I suppose that even air is affected by gravity since it likes to remain on the top of water... At least I think that would be gravity helping the water push down and get under the air... or maybe it's something else, I wouldn't know.

This all really does interest me and I only wish I had ever taken some sort of physics class. I have done some thinking, and so far only one thing comes to mind that I can't instantly say wouldn't work. This has to do with the water picture uploaded a few posts up...

What if created one of tanks of water, and completely sealed it up and filled it all the way up with water, make sure there are no leaks... ;)

Then somehow shoot some air in there, more air than would normally flat in there on its own. I suppose the air would float up to the top eventually, but if there was "too much" water in there, could it create enough pressure on the water to push it down and up and out the nozzle that has some sort of flappers that spin around? When the water squirts out that nozzle it'll fall back down to where it originally was, and hopefully under the pressure would go through again. Probably be a pretty slow process, but if you kept it fully sealed, would it work? It would probably even be slower than this icon of this guy pounding his head against the brick wall, :bang head .... HAHA.

Probably be pretty tough to create something like that. You would need a see through tank, and also one that is strong enough to handle the pressure.

I don't claim to understand any of this or that I have thought up anything special. Just having fun. What are your thoughts on that?

Edit: Oh, and just for laughs, here is the first true perpetual motion machine! It spins forever! lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aJTmzEdb_8&feature=related

I'm no scientist.

But what I have discovered may be the answer.

I know you're saying, how can 1 guy from long island figured it out before the government?

Ok, this is the problem when people try to build such a device.

Now I'm going to make you think it can be done... read on.


Magnets have two poles, North and a south. When ever you use any magnet, it still has the other pole attracting, creating friction.

If you were able to channel the magnet in using only one pole, or making a mono pole magnet by shielding it, thus no more friction.

I believe this is the answer, and if I can find the material to do it, I will build a prototype..

I have my design on paper, and feel if I can channel the energy, and over come friction from the bearings and air, I can do it...

This is the step in the right direction (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFGiWiXMHn0)

noxqzs
05-16-08, 08:39 AM
This is the step in the right direction (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFGiWiXMHn0)


I fail to see this video's merit. For all we know 3/4 of the whole structure is not visible. There is no way to see what is going on. If you do decide to build a prototype, please post some pics.

FireMogle
05-16-08, 09:18 AM
I'm no scientist.

But what I have discovered may be the answer.

I know you're saying, how can 1 guy from long island figured it out before the government?

Ok, this is the problem when people try to build such a device.

Now I'm going to make you think it can be done... read on.


Magnets have two poles, North and a south. When ever you use any magnet, it still has the other pole attracting, creating friction.

If you were able to channel the magnet in using only one pole, or making a mono pole magnet by shielding it, thus no more friction.

I believe this is the answer, and if I can find the material to do it, I will build a prototype..

I have my design on paper, and feel if I can channel the energy, and over come friction from the bearings and air, I can do it...

This is the step in the right direction (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFGiWiXMHn0)

Thats not quite how magnets work but even if it were, your design needs to work in such a way that no forces work to slow down whatever you are trying to keep in motion. So it will need to be inside a perfect vacuum to start with. Good luck with everything though.

ps
that video is a known fake. It claims to go beyond the idea of perpetual motion and claims to actually create energy.

Malpine Walis
05-16-08, 09:45 AM
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d93/MalpineWalis/MiracleOccurs_big.jpg

AngryArtichoke
05-19-08, 11:40 PM
I know how I am going to get my free energy. Just make a big coil and throw it under some high voltage lines.

Too bad some court ruled that the field generated by power companies is their property too :( LAME

That's the best post I've read all week.