Radeon 3870 fails

[Rinne]

Just recently I bought a new computer, including a Radeon 3870, a Gigabyte S3-G board and a Aerocool AeroEngine 3T case.

I couldn't mount the mainboard in the case at first, because the mounting screws were missing, and the shop had to sent me some which took some days..

So I testet the system without a case, just sitting there on my table and mounted a HR-03 to my card after making sure it works properly..

Everything went fine and really smooth, but now I got the mounting set and of course placed the board inside the case...

I am now facing regular failures from the card, and started to investigate..

First I thought it might have been a grounding issue, then I suspected the PSU (Seasonic S-12 500), until I could finally pin it down to the PCI-E connection...

I tried to move the card inside the slot a little (grabbed one edge of the card and moved it up/down) and whenever I do that the screen goes blank..

Now it seems like some vibrations are present and thats why I have this issue during normal use...

Long story short: has anyone got any possible solution to this?

Regards..

[EDIT]:
Seems like the problems is something else...
It runs rock solid now when idling, but fails under load...

Full system specs:
Case: Aerocool Extreme Engine 3T
PSU: Seasonic S-12 500W (16A + 17A on the 12V rails)
CPU: Intel Core2Duo E8200
RAM: OCZ ReaperX 8500
GFX: Sapphire Radeon 3870
Board: Gigabyte S3-G
HDD: 2 WD Caviar 80GB
DVD: 2 Sata drives (don't ask me which exactly, but both are DVD-RW)

everything is at stock, and as said.. it worked before, but I only had one DVD drive attached..

[FileAnt]

1/ Need 18A+
2/ The card is heavy so you need to screw the card in. Don't wiggle it!
3/ Gigabyte suck

[oakstave]

Yeah, don't wiggle stuff when your machine is plugged in. You could fry your components that way. :eek:

What do you mean by 'regular failures'. Do you mean you are getting an error? What does it say? Is the screen going black? What are you doing when it happens? Is it only when you are gaming, or just at the desktop?

Also, I agree with FireAnt if you haven't screwed the card into the case.

If I were to guess, I'd say the PCI-E slot has a problem. If you have more than one, try switching slots...with the machine unplugged ;)

[Rinne]

Thanks File Ant and oakstave,

My understanding was that the amperage of the rails has to be added, that would be 16A+17A=33A... At least it's a Sli/Crossfire PSU... Correct me if I'm wrong..

Also it did run very well before, even overclocked..

oh, and it was of course screwed into the case!

I figured the problem was something else..

When put into the case, the heatsink of the card was facing downwards, and there was only very small space for the hot air to escape, could it be that it has built up and heated some critical component on the card?

I removed everything from the case again, and tested to stress the card again, with the mainboard lying on the table, so the ait could escape from the card..
It crashed again, but as soon as I added a fan, everything was rock solid again.. Even overclocked to 885MHZ/Core, where it would crash nearly instantly in the case...
That could strenghten the theory

But now I have an even bigger problem..
As I figured this would be the problem, I decided to mount the HR03 backwards, so that the heatsink would be on top and more in the airflow of the case..

I did this, and when I put the card back in... guess what?
Nothing happens..
All I get is an error beep from the mainboard, concering the graphics card..
I used a Geforce 8800 from my brother to test if the slot was defect, but that works just fine...
I attached the standard fan of the Radeon to the card to see if it spins up, and it does, so it is provided with power at least..
But nothing else happens..

I have now disassembled the card to see if I damaged something, but it seems that everything is ok...

Anyone got an idea on this?

I don't think Sapphires guarantee covers modified cards, does it?

[oakstave]

I don't think Sapphires guarantee covers modified cards, does it?

Nope :cry:

[Rinne]

ordered a new one, set me back over 120€ :(

Not going to attach the HR03 to this one, trust me ^^

[boarderjw]

My understanding was that the amperage of the rails has to be added, that would be 16A+17A=33A... At least it's a Sli/Crossfire PSU... Correct me if I'm wrong..



you usually don't add them up. those numbers just mean that they can do a max of 16A and 17A on those lines, but doesn't mean they can do those numbers at the same time. for that seasonic PSU though it looks like it actually can do those numbers at the same time. the specs show a max 396W on the 12v rail.

[Sarsbaby]

Maybe you have a grounding problem?

How did you attach the board to the case? Did you use anything between the screws and the board ( like those crappy little paper circles )?

[oakstave]

I used those crappy little paper circles... I thought the board grounded through the PSU, not the board stand-offs? :shrug:

[Rinne]

Maybe you have a grounding problem?

How did you attach the board to the case? Did you use anything between the screws and the board ( like those crappy little paper circles )?

well.. actully I did..

But as said, it works with the Geforce ´stuck in to it.

I might try to remove them, though..

EDIT: Nope, it didn't work..

[Super Nade]

Did you crush the core? That can happen with after-market HSF's.

[Essenar]

First of all:
Running your rig without a case, sitting on your desk is a big big NO! There's many reasons to have a case, and looking cool isn't the main one. First is cooling, second is stabilizing the components from SHOCK (Big one for you), and the third is most important, and that's a chassis that GROUNDS them. (Also big for you)

When using aftermarket cooling, especially Thermalright cooling, it's VERY important that your components are grounded and in a case, because not only are their coolers very robust in size and viable to hit other components in movement, but they're very heavy.

The 3870 didn't fail, but likely you installing it on the card without the motherboard being safely mounted to a chassis caused the weight to distribute uneven. You could've crushed the core, had it sit and cool uneven and short or even just caused an error on the main PCB.

These video cards are much more fragile than ATI Rage 128 Pro's, so next time don't try an aftermarket cooler until you have a case to put it in.

Remember, only gaming hardware review magazines try rigs without cases, and trust me, being that I used to test hardware and write for one, we DID have hardware fail on us by not using a case. That's the reason manufacturers send us 2-3 counts of each product for testing. Not extras to make us biased. :)

[henzo]

Nicely said Essenar, was about to say mostly the same thing, except of course about the testing for cpu mags lol.

[FileAnt]

I would say it is just the rail you are using has the MB and disks on it as well and the Amps is just a tad too much when loaded.. use the 12v PCIe connector that is coming from the second smaller clump of wires (to get the second rail).

I had problems to and had to screw it in properly and swap to the second PCIe connector on mine (i.e. I had both those problems). My power supply is rated 20A 20A 20A but it is really 17A 20A 20A i think (from a review i read online.. bit fuzzy since I read it). In theory 17A should be fine as I use 16.2, but in practice for me it was just a tad too low, so my guess was 18A to be sure, but a PCIe connector on the second rail should do it fine.

[Rinne]

First of all:
Running your rig without a case, sitting on your desk is a big big NO! There's many reasons to have a case, and looking cool isn't the main one. First is cooling, second is stabilizing the components from SHOCK (Big one for you), and the third is most important, and that's a chassis that GROUNDS them. (Also big for you)

When using aftermarket cooling, especially Thermalright cooling, it's VERY important that your components are grounded and in a case, because not only are their coolers very robust in size and viable to hit other components in movement, but they're very heavy.

The 3870 didn't fail, but likely you installing it on the card without the motherboard being safely mounted to a chassis caused the weight to distribute uneven. You could've crushed the core, had it sit and cool uneven and short or even just caused an error on the main PCB.

These video cards are much more fragile than ATI Rage 128 Pro's, so next time don't try an aftermarket cooler until you have a case to put it in.

Remember, only gaming hardware review magazines try rigs without cases, and trust me, being that I used to test hardware and write for one, we DID have hardware fail on us by not using a case. That's the reason manufacturers send us 2-3 counts of each product for testing. Not extras to make us biased. :)


Well, first of all thanks...

But as said, the card failed when it was mounted in a case, and it did run well without it. Also it was very stable outside the case, while it bent a little inside..

Did you crush the core? That can happen with after-market HSF's.

I think I really did that when I mounted the HS backwards... There are some small dots beside the ATI logo on the Die, that I thought was some left Thermal paste at first, but I can't get them off, so they are probably scratches... Although I'm sure they were there after I removed the original cooler, already..

FileAnt:
I already tried all Rails, makes no difference..

Just to give a cleaner overview of the chronology of what happened:

-installed everything without a case -->rock solid

-installed HR 03--> rock solid, even overclocked, (used it quite steadily for around a week, mostly with the GPU under load and @885MHZ)

-mounted everything in the case: The card would fail when under load for a period of time (2-3minutes) The thermal sensor of the GPU never went into the 50's btw.., but I don't know about the other components.. as said before, the hot air had no way to escape

-removed everything from the case again: -->rock solid

-remounted the HS backwards -->nothing happens but errors from the mainboard (beep code states error with GFX)

-remounted the HS forward again -->same error

That is also why I say it can't be the PSU.... I doubt that the PSU starts being a problem as soon as I mount everything in the case...

Still thanks for the help though, some really helpful comments for the next card here..

[Super Nade]

Try the stock HSF and see what happens?

[Rinne]

nope, no effect...

Guess I'll just wait for the new card to arrive....

I even guess it would be the best to wait for the HD 4000 cards, but heck, I have already ordered the new one...

Sadly there's no Step Up for ATI cards :(

[Cheator]

Jesus, don't wiggle it! Man my skin crawled when you said that.. .thats not good at all. Even moving components slightly, sometimes can kill it. I've killed a few components in my time doing that (Hard drive and CDrom)

[wingless]

I know you checked it out but did you actually swap the PSU out and try another one? If you don't have a spare PSU then borrow a friends. When you have strange problems that you can't track down its usually the component that "appears" to be working just fine, the PSU. Sure, you get power, but it ain't GOOD power so components randomly fail.

I've been folding on my old 2900XT for 2 months now 24/7 and it still overclocks to 930mhz and performs just fine. Its a Diamond. You may have a bad card but the basic reference design from ATI is pretty solid. Try the card in a friend's system to rule out the motherboard/PSU/CPU/RAM. RMA it and try another if you can't find that any other component is failing.

[corruption]

First of all:
Running your rig without a case, sitting on your desk is a big big NO! There's many reasons to have a case, and looking cool isn't the main one. First is cooling, second is stabilizing the components from SHOCK (Big one for you), and the third is most important, and that's a chassis that GROUNDS them. (Also big for you)


I find it almost humorous that you seem set on the fact that you will kill hardware if you don't have a case. I've had cases flat out short out motherboards before. (Most commonly cases with stand-offs that cannot be removed, even if the nipples line up.) If you have your motherboard on a non-conductive surface, and don't move any components after powering it on, you should not have any failures.

Fugger and and Crotale don't use cases for most of the overclocks that I've seen pictures of either. Example (http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://techreport.com/r.x/12612_Abit_boasts_X38_mobos_high_overclocks/abit3.jpg&imgrefurl=http://techreport.com/discussions.x/12612&h=1200&w=1600&sz=305&hl=en&start=55&um=1&tbnid=STAZHJ__iTdH5M:&tbnh=113&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfugger%2Boverclocking%2Bpics%26start% 3D42%26ndsp%3D21%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN)

One of the only reasons that I don't run case-less is because of my cat. I know that ||Console|| ran without a case for a few months with no issues. You just have to be careful around non-secured components.

Now....I think it's time to finish my rum and coke and go to bed before I ramble any further.... :beer:

[FileAnt]

I have an all perspex case, but I still earth the MB (as well as the PCI screw rail and drives) to the outside of the powersupply. The recommended earth screw hole on the MB is sometimes even marked.

[Super Nade]

Earthing is important to prevent ground loops, but it is not necessary to merely get the device working.

[FileAnt]

I think the original suggestion by Sarsbaby above inferred something might be earthed that is not suppose to be earthed.

I was just seconding Essenar on earthing vs not earthing. I know Nvidia have made some GForce cards that have put current out the earth to the monitor instead of the -ve to the PS. What happens then if the monitor is unplugged while the PC is on? It is always a good idea to be careful and not just trust what you have done or that the MB, Cards and PS are correctly wired.

[mrbobc]

why didnt u try your card in your bro's pc when you tried his 8800?

thats the first thing u should try if u havent yet!