View Full Version : Can you make Linux and Windows work on the same WU?
I have a dual boot machine which I fold on. Most of the time it's in Linux, but sometimes it's in Windows. What happens sometimes is that Windows will download a new WU, and then it won't finish before I'm back in Linux. The WU will sit there, and expire. (The opposite can happen too, although it's less common.)
What I'd like to do is make it so that Windows and Linux both work on the same WU, so it doesn't matter which OS I'm in, it's still folding away on the right unit and not letting things linger/expire.
I have read/write access to the Windows partition from inside Linux.
Is this possible to do?
WarriorII
06-21-08, 05:50 PM
No, you can not.
Your Kung Fu in not strong enough. :sn:
That would be great but this is why there are different clients.
maybe next time. :(
harlam357
06-21-08, 05:57 PM
I have moved a WU from Windows -> Linux, or was it Linux -> Windows, in any case the WU did start but it started at the beginning and I lost any progress made on the unit.
I'm not endorsing this radical behavior in any way :D it's not supported to do such things. What you want to do, I fear, would effectively yield the same result I observed.
You could have one OS do the folding work in a VM instead of dual booting.
I've tried VM's but they always crash on me. It works for a bit, then within 10 minutes dies horribly. Anyways, I'm not a fan of virtualization yet... I find it too unstable and annoying.
Interesting that you were able to move the unit over, but that it restarted... I am not convinced this task is impossible. I'm betting if I make the right set of links and/or scripts I can make it continue from where it left off.
I will be poking around some... please let me know if any of you have any ideas as to how this works.
thideras
06-21-08, 06:13 PM
I've tried VM's but they always crash on me. It works for a bit, then within 10 minutes dies horribly. Anyways, I'm not a fan of virtualization yet... I find it too unstable and annoying.What program did you use for the client? I know you are one for open source, but VMWare has always worked perfectly for me :)
I have to desire to get involved with non-free software. While I do use some and have become attached to it, my policy is not to get involved with any new non-free software programs. As time passes, I am abandoning the non-free software... I don't want to get attached to any other proprietary software programs, as proprietary software is a dying breed anyways and will eventually all be replaced by free software, which would force me to abandon what I've learned and start all over.
I have tried Virtualbox mostly, as well as qemu a bit. It starts windows up perfectly in a window, boots up, and I get to a desktop. Then, no matter what I do, it dies horribly and forces a system reboot (even Linux is completely hosed). I have to use the restart button on the computer. The freeze happens within minutes. I have no idea why. Basically, I consider the program too immature for my needs at this point, and am waiting for virtualization software to become more stable/tested.
Also... I need control from within Linux regarding the starting/stopping of folding. All of my machines function as slave mythtv backends. That means that they get transcoding and commercial flagging jobs. I have a cron job that checks if such a process is running, drops its priority down to the minimum, and then shuts off folding. The same process will restart folding when there is no myth job running. I cannot control folding in windows from the linux cron. Also, running a full Windows OS virtualized all the time to fold wastes substantial resources when I could just be running the Linux client anyways.
I cannot completely abandon either OS and use only virtualization in place of dual boot due to poor support for accelerated video (opengl and directx). If I am booting into Windows, it may be for gaming (not always though), in which case, I can't virtualize it. In Linux, I use a composited desktop which requires opengl acceleration (compiz-fusion).
gsrcrxsi
06-21-08, 08:18 PM
you do know vmware server is free right? i use it to virtualize windows for my engineering programs. i also used it to run 64 bit VMs inside the 32-bit OS, with no issues. only reason i dont use it for the 64-bit VMs anymore is because i moved to a native 64-bit OS
gsrcrxsi
06-21-08, 08:22 PM
also a side note. what if you had the folding folder installed to a hard drive that could be used by either OS. and had both clients in the same folder. that way when you are in windows, you load up the windows client, and in linux you load up the linux client and just share the work directories, logs, and client.config files
That's basically what I'm trying to do. The question is which files are the same between them and which are different.
VMWare isn't free. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VMware_Player
License (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_license) Proprietary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprietary)
VMWare Server is though:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VMware_Server
VMware, Inc. makes Server freely available in the hope that users will eventually upgrade to VMware ESX Server.
No, it's not. You are confusing freeware (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeware) with free software (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software).
Freeware is computer software (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software) that is available for use at no cost or for an optional fee.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeware#cite_note-0) Freeware is often made available in a binary-only, proprietary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprietary_software) form, thus making it distinct from free software (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software). Proprietary freeware allows authors to contribute something for the benefit of the community, while at the same time allowing them to retain control of the source code and preserve its business potential. Freeware is different from shareware (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shareware), where the user is obliged to pay (e.g. after some trial period or for additional functionality).Free software or libre software is software (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software) that can be used, studied, and modified without restriction, and which can be copied and redistributed in modified or unmodified form either without restriction, or with minimal restrictions only to ensure that further recipients can also do these things. In practice, for software to be distributed as free software, the human readable form of the program (the "source code (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_code)") must be made available to the recipient along with a notice granting the above permissions. Such a notice is a "free software licence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software_licence)", or, in theory, could be a notice saying that the source code is released into the public domain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain).
The first formal definition of free software was published by FSF in February 1986.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software#cite_note-bull6-3) That definition, written by Richard Stallman, is still maintained today and states that software is free software if people who receive a copy of the software have the following four freedoms:
Freedom 0: The freedom to run the program for any purpose.
Freedom 1: The freedom to study and modify the program.
Freedom 2: The freedom to copy the program so you can help your neighbor.
Freedom 3: The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements to the public, so that the whole community benefits.Proprietary freeware is proprietary just like any other proprietary software. The only difference is that it doesn't cost you any money to use it. The "free" in "free software" does not refer to money. It refers to freedom. "Free as in speech, not as in beer," as they say.
VMWare is all proprietary software, so I will not use it. qemu and virtualbox are free software.
gsrcrxsi
06-21-08, 10:28 PM
free monetarily is all that matters to me. personally it doesnt make sense to use inferior software just to "make a stand". but whatever works for you i suppose. i use VMWare Server, its costs nothing, and it works perfectly. nothing more i can ask for.
but as for which files are the same, i not exactly sure. i would just try it out and see if it works. install one, then take the other version's client executable and toss it in the same folder, and see if it works.
Well, as for free software vs. proprietary, that's a long discussion and off topic for this thread. Suffice it to say that I am more concerned about freedom than money. I could run Windows with Office on all 12 of my computers, fully legally, with a small fraction of the money I give away (much of which goes to free software projects). Free software, on the whole, is not inferior software, although there are some examples where it is (just as there are examples where proprietary is inferior software). However, in the FS movement, we think big picture and long term, and we believe that we will enjoy the best user experience when we are collectively in control of the software we use and need, and not subject to the whim of a corporation. Of course, part of freedom is respecting that others can disagree with you and have different values, and if you consider the price more important than the freedom, then I am happy we live in a society where you are free to hold that view.
Anyways, back to the topic at hand. You can't just point them to the same directory, as the directory includes binaries. Linux and Windows aren't binary compatible, so they won't work (a quick inspection shows the cores are completely different sizes too). I believe what I will need to do is use the Windows partition as the main folding data spot, and create a secondary one on the linux partition that uses soft links to some of the files, but not all of them (i.e. the binaries would not be linked to the windows partition, but the txt files and work folder would be). The trick is figuring out what is the same and what is not. It's also possible that the work uses a different format entirely... if that is the case, then it might be impossible to do this without major efforts... but I have no reason to believe that is the case... yet.
gsrcrxsi
06-21-08, 11:46 PM
well i wasnt trying to generalize, i was just saying that in this instance of dealing with VMs, that vmware is tried and true, and you seem to have been experiencing issues with the truely free stuff. thats it. i know the inferiority can go both ways. hell i run linux and like it loads better than XP. i was just suggesting that VMW server would most likely solve your VM woes, and to discard it simply because they wont let you change it, doesnt seem fair to VMW IMO. not even giving it a chance. but like i said, i agree to disagree, and if its your wish to have everything truely free at a sacrafice of not having everything working the way you want, then so be it. and its not that i have a problem with things being proprietary, i just want to have software that does exactly what i want to do with little or no cost to me. so anything's fair game as long as it fits.
good info about the binaries and stuff, i for one didnt know they were so different, i figured just the client executables were different but it generated the same work and config files for everything else, guess i was wrong. but it sounds like you are well on your way to figuring it out lol. :thup:
It may generate the same work and config files. What I know for sure is different are the cores. Anything that isn't an executable could potentially be the same... but might not be.
One thing to think about... you probably only have freeware VMWare because of the existence of free software alternatives. If VMWare charged a lot, people would all just move to the free software alternatives, and they don't want that, so they offer a crippled freeware version. If there were no free software equivalents, VMWare could charge lots, and people would have no choice but to buy it or do without virtualization, so you are benefiting from free software, even if you don't realize it.
In fairness to qemu, I haven't really given it a shot. I can definitely say that I tried to get VirtualBox working, but I just had no idea what was causing the problem. I suppose if I were interested enough in virtualization, I'd screw around with qemu some, but to be honest, I don't find virtualization to be that useful for my purposes; dual boot works better for most things.
gsrcrxsi
06-22-08, 10:06 AM
of course if VMWare server wasnt free, id probably use another free alternative. but i tend to use the best free alternative, which right now for me, is VMware. i wouldnt call it crippled. it has everything except hardware vid accelleration and you cant have more than 2 cores, but for what i use it for (no games) its fine. heck, i use my VM to print stuff cause my printer isnt supported under linux. it would be very annoying having to reboot to print something. only thing i dual boot for is stress testing/benchmarking, because it doesnt work under VM (hardware monitors and such) and all the good programs are for windows. sure i can run prime with wine, but ive hated wine since i installed it, and my current fresh install wont have it.
but i think we both understand each others position, and i wont take this thread anymore off topic. have you tried lumping everything into one folder yet?
That sounds pretty crippled to me. =P Any software where functionality is deliberately removed to make you pay them money falls into the crippleware category for me, and I wouldn't touch it. For what it's worth, I hate Wine too. In concept, I love it, but in practice I can almost never get it to do what I want and usually just get annoyed. It's taking them forever, but I guess it's understandable since it's such a massive project.
i use my VM to print stuff cause my printer isnt supported under linuxOuch. I'm very careful to pick hardware that won't force me to use proprietary software. I got a nice, networkable brother laser printer. Works flawlessly from any client on my os in any os I've come across. Some of the really cheap printers or really exotic ones (and a lot of all in one machines) are not well supported in Linux, but you can find some that are if you make it a point to check support.
i tend to use the best free alternative, which right now for me, is VMware.VMWare isn't free though, it just doesn't cost any money.
have you tried lumping everything into one folder yet?Not yet, I need to try to figure out what to link and what to keep separate copies of.
gsrcrxsi
06-22-08, 12:20 PM
well thats what i mean by free, lol. our definitions are slightly different lol. but yea, i have a lexmark printer. it was given to me for xmas and its an all in one thing. ive searched and searched but no drivers exist for linux so VM works. id rather use a VM than buy another printer.
It's quite possible that there is no good linux driver for that. All in one's are notoriously difficult because the manufacturer's are cheap and don't put much in the hardware, instead offloading all processing tasks to the computer. Higher end machines generally function better as they have their own processing units. Postscript printers function very well, because the processing is all done in the printer, and the drivers just send raw postscript code over to the printer, which doesn't vary between OS's. That's also why postscript printers have always cost more (that's what I use). Most printers can be made to work to at least some degree in Linux... even the all-in-one's can usually be made to print, but as for copying, scanning, faxing... that's where it gets hairy.
The real problem in the terminology is that there is an ambiguity in English. We use the same word "free" for two totally different meanings, as in "free speech" and "free beer." This is not true in most languages, as those two meanings are rather unconnected. That's why you'll often here it called FLOSS (Free Libre Open Source Software) or Libre Software, which draws on the fact that Spanish has two different words for free, gratis (free as in beer) and libre (free as in speech... think the same root as liberty). So Free Software advocates in other languages don't run into this problem.
ihrsetrdr
06-22-08, 02:30 PM
MRD, I didn't see any mention of which folding client you are running, the standard uniprocessor or the SMP? If SMP, then Virtualbox would not be the answer, as VB only supports 1 cpu per guest O/S. As an "emulator" QEMU would be painfully slow. VM ware server supports 2 cpu's per guest.
If you're running the FAH504-Linux client maybe you could: Throw a Linux image like slax (http://www.slax.org/) on a pendrive, run your WU on that [live]while in windows, then once rebooted back to Linux- just run it native in a local directory.
-just something to consider...
I'm running the 32 bit uniprocessor client. Accessing the files isn't really the problem - I don't think a flash drive buys me anything. All the computers also have constant access to a file server that shares via samba and nfs. I can access files on a Windows partition from within Linux, and if I really need to, I can do the opposite (I could make Linux folding run on a separate partition that Windows can read, or on the regular Windows partition). The issue is making them run on the same WU when many of the files are different formats.
I don't know a lot about virtualization... is there a reason qemu should be slower than vb or other virtualization software? Just curious, I don't think virtualization will be the answer here.
Audioaficionado
06-22-08, 03:35 PM
you do know vmware server is free right? i use it to virtualize windows for my engineering programs. i also used it to run 64 bit VMs inside the 32-bit OS, with no issues. only reason i dont use it for the 64-bit VMs anymore is because i moved to a native 64-bit OS64bit VM on 32bit host OS will only work if the CPU has virtualization technology or it's equivalent.
And of course, the 64 bit VM will only work on a 64 bit cpu, which I do not have. =P
Yes... I know... it's time to upgrade. I'm working on it...
Shelnutt2
06-22-08, 07:21 PM
I skipped reading the thread because I feel the need to tell you it is 100% possible.
Simply install the v6 windows client onto your windows partition via WINE in Linux. Then reboot and install it again in the same location and then windows will be setup and Linux will be setup and you'll be able to run the same work unit from either OS. Now this will only work with the single client not the SMP client.
Are you suggesting running the Windows client in Linux under Wine instead of the native Linux client, or did I misunderstand you?
Shelnutt2
06-22-08, 08:18 PM
Are you suggesting running the Windows client in Linux under Wine instead of the native Linux client, or did I misunderstand you?
Correct. It has been done many times before, and way back when it was more popular (as far as I know it hasn't been used lately due to SMP and all), but when it was used before there was only about a 5% performance hit compared to running native linux client.
ihrsetrdr
06-22-08, 08:39 PM
I'm running the 32 bit uniprocessor client. Accessing the files isn't really the problem - I don't think a flash drive buys me anything. All the computers also have constant access to a file server that shares via samba and nfs. I can access files on a Windows partition from within Linux, and if I really need to, I can do the opposite (I could make Linux folding run on a separate partition that Windows can read, or on the regular Windows partition). The issue is making them run on the same WU when many of the files are different formats.
I don't know a lot about virtualization... is there a reason qemu should be slower than vb or other virtualization software? Just curious, I don't think virtualization will be the answer here.
Yea, if your cpu/mobo doesn't support virtualization then it's a moot subject anyway. *edit* that's probably the main reason for the troubles you mentioned in this post (http://www.ocforums.com/showpost.php?p=5648125&postcount=23).
If it is as Shel mentions that running fah in Wine only yields a 5% performance hit, then that's not a bad deal at all.
Hmm, I don't like the Wine idea because I have cron scripts that start and stop folding based on what other apps are running, and I'd lose that functionality. Otherwise folding hogs too much cpu versus other low priority processes that are more important.
Shelnutt2
06-23-08, 06:59 AM
Hmm, I don't like the Wine idea because I have cron scripts that start and stop folding based on what other apps are running, and I'd lose that functionality. Otherwise folding hogs too much cpu versus other low priority processes that are more important.
How would you loose that ability? Instead of your scripts executing "./fah6" they would run "wine fah6.exe". I know you have a strong dislike for WINE but this is your only option in order to run the same workunit with your setup.
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