Which P45 should I get?

From http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...&N=2010200280+107172615+4018&name=$200+-+$300

I'm making a gaming computer so I want the best P45, so which one is better thent he tohers or are they equal? Also are there any other P45 versions then the ones shown?

My choice would be asus p5q dlx, actually that's what I got.

The performance gain of P35 vs 45 is negligible. You can only see the gains when you run benchmark tests. But those small gains can't transfer into real performance gains.

So the good thing to use P45 is its support of newer technology (eg DRR3). If you don't need those support now or in near future, you should go for a P35 board.

Wai_Wai said:

The performance gain of P35 vs 45 is negligible. You can only see the gains when you run benchmark tests. But those small gains can't transfer into real performance gains.

So the good thing to use P45 is its support of newer technology (eg DRR3). If you don't need those support now or in near future, you should go for a P35 board.

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Not quite true......, the P45 enables you to run 45 nm quads at much higher FSB than with a P35 or even some X38/X48 boards, it also regulates voltage more effectively resulting in lower CPU and chipset over-voltages required and lowers overall CPU and chipset temps. Its also has dual x 8 PCI-e 2.0 lanes whereas the P35 has only x16 plus x4 lanes on the graphics. I can go one but you get the picture I hope.

To the OP, the Asus P5Q series are doing pretty well, I had a P5Q deluxe and was quite impressed with it, the P45 is fine for mid range CF as well, if you look at higher end 4870's the a X38 or X48 with duall full x16 lanes would be a better choice. The P45 does not OC RAM as well as I would have hoped but we talking about above 500 FSB here

P5Q premium .... i jsut got a p5k premium black pearl edition can't wait to use it

its the best model of teh best brand ... how can you go wrong?

Brolloks said:

Not quite true......, the P45 enables you to run 45 nm quads at much higher FSB than with a P35 or even some X38/X48 boards, it also regulates voltage more effectively resulting in lower CPU and chipset over-voltages required and lowers overall CPU and chipset temps. Its also has dual x 8 PCI-e 2.0 lanes whereas the P35 has only x16 plus x4 lanes on the graphics. I can go one but you get the picture I hope.

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That's why i say it may help if you really need to the new technology they afford. If you buy an expensive motherboard but using components which don't need such an expensive mobo, it's pointless.

P35: I believe it has x8 + x8 too.

Also higher bandwidth means nothing if no application (or even hardware) can make use of them.

FSB 1066 vs FSB 1333 gets less than 1% gain. It takes some benchmark gains into account so the real performance gain is even less.

I read a review about PCI Express 2.0. It compares 2.0 x1 x4 x8 x16. the performance is nearly topped after PCIe v2.0 x4 (=PCIe v1 x8). Sometimes you will see funny results like PCIe v2.0 x8 manages to get to the top while PCIe v2.0 x16 is the third. Of course this happens due to margin error of the benchmark program. So you see, how negligible the real gain is.

Generously speaking, I would say 3% gain. This requires an expensive motherboard which may be outdated within a few months + expensive components + highly intensive/demanding application to redeem the 3% gains.

Things may change in future when they start to take advantage of it. However you will have something much better at that time it comes true. I see no point in getting the (underutilized) "future technology" now.

I don't know how helpful the improved voltage is. It can be a gimmick or really helpful. I don't care much on lowering temps as long as they stay within limits. But it may be helpful for those who do extreme OC.

One thing is true. don't just read the specifications and imagine the gains you can get. Theory and reality can have different stories. Learn to research before you believe.
Examples:
* Dual-channel (double bandwidth, double performance)
* DDR3 (100% faster, +100% performance)
* SLI / CF (Great! I can get double performance for 2 cards, can't I?)

Wai_Wai said:

That's why i say it may help if you really need to the new technology they afford. If you buy an expensive motherboard but using components which don't need such an expensive mobo, it's pointless.

P35: I believe it has x8 + x8 too.

Also higher bandwidth means nothing if no application (or even hardware) can make use of them.

FSB 1066 vs FSB 1333 gets less than 1% gain. It takes some benchmark gains into account so the real performance gain is even less.

I read a review about PCI Express 2.0. It compares 2.0 x1 x4 x8 x16. the performance is nearly topped after PCIe v2.0 x4 (=PCIe v1 x8). Sometimes you will see funny results like PCIe v2.0 x8 manages to get to the top while PCIe v2.0 x16 is the third. Of course this happens due to margin error of the benchmark program. So you see, how negligible the real gain is.

Generously speaking, I would say 3% gain. This requires an expensive motherboard which may be outdated within a few months + expensive components + highly intensive/demanding application to redeem the 3% gains.

Things may change in future when they start to take advantage of it. However you will have something much better at that time it comes true. I see no point in getting the (underutilized) "future technology" now.

I don't know how helpful the improved voltage is. It can be a gimmick or really helpful. I don't care much on lowering temps as long as they stay within limits. But it may be helpful for those who do extreme OC.

One thing is true. don't just read the specifications and imagine the gains you can get. Theory and reality can have different stories. Learn to research before you believe.
Examples:
* Dual-channel (double bandwidth, double performance)
* DDR3 (100% faster, +100% performance)
* SLI / CF (Great! I can get double performance for 2 cards, can't I?)

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You are just grabbing numbers out of the air and making wild statements based on some reading you have done, I would suggest you do some actual testing on hardware and then we talk again. I have benchmarked all the hardware I quoted and have experienced it 1st hand, so my advice is based on actuall experience, hope you can learn from it.

Brolloks said:

You are just grabbing numbers out of the air and making wild statements based on some reading you have done, I would suggest you do some actual testing on hardware and then we talk again. I have benchmarked all the hardware I quoted and have experienced it 1st hand, so my advice is based on actuall experience, hope you can learn from it.

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Except the "I would say 3% gain" intended as a way to give the reader a general feeling of how small a gain could be, all other numbers are not make-ups. Simply saying "small" alone can mean 1%, 10%, 20% difference depending on the context. Anyway, there are some sources which support my numbers/observations:
http://www.legitreviews.com/article/511/1/
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/cpu-charts-2007,1644-8.html
http://www.anandtech.com/memory/showdoc.aspx?i=2989
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/pci-express-2-0,1915.html
http://www.pcisig.com/specifications/pciexpress/base2

Note when you read benchmarks: Some benchmarks only try to mention the theoretical gains. For example memory benchmark, average read access etc. You should focus on real performance gains. Bottlenecks and underutilization are one of the reasons why real performance gains greatly differ from the pure benchmark tests. If you read the technical details about PCI Express 2.0 for example, you will understand why we are not going to take much advantages anytime soon.

Regrading to experiences, for example, if someones say "I bought a XXX motherboard. I used it and I tested it. I feel it is 10x faster. It's worth every penny!! LOL" Perception itself is inaccurate. I can show two pictures with two straight lines. People may say one is longer than another. However both lines are the same in length. Of course some kinds of experiences are good. (Don't get me wrong that I say your experiences are useless!).

Yes you pointed out the interesting parts of the specs of P45. But you haven't mentioned anything about the real performance benefits. If you have benchmarked P45 motherboard, would you mind showing figures about how a P45 motherboard perform against a P35 motherboard?

Currently my advice is: if money means nothing to you, go all the ways out to make an expensive build with P45 motherboard. You will feel good because you know you are using "the best". Otherwise save your money.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

PS: In effect there are comparative reviews about P45 motherboard. You can always google and read it yourself.

Wai_Wai said:

Feel free to prove me wrong.

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Coming from a guy that just went from P35 to P45, there is a SERIOUS gain, especially in Crossfire. P35 was x8 by x8 PCIE1.1 whereas P45 is x8 by x8 PCIE 2.0 (double the bandwidth). The P35 severly limited my 2x 3850s OCed in crossfire, and while my FPS was registering fairly well (35fps on crysis, can't remember the settings), it was laggy and choppy. I went to 40 FPS with just a board change, with no lag, no chop, no studder...

There is also the fact that the P45 has a higher FSB wall.

yes, P45 is much better, much faster, because Id efinately saw the difference.

P35 was x8 by x8 PCIE1.1 whereas P45 is x8 by x8 PCIE 2.0 (double the bandwidth). The P35 severly limited my 2x 3850s OCed in crossfire

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It's an example of perception vs reality. It's hardly true to say it is "severely limited". The bandwidth provided by x8 + x8 are adequate for a lot of games and purposes.

Note: PCIe 2.0 x4 (= PCIe 1 x8).




Note that x4 can even outperform x16. Of course it doesn't make sense. It's because the results are too close that it's within the margin of error. There's no noticeable difference after PCIe 2.0 x4 (= PCI 1 x8).

Performance gain of Crysis:

Coming from a guy that just went from P35 to P45, there is a SERIOUS gain, especially in Crossfire.

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I wouldn't say it's a SERIOUS gain when you see what it gains is a few FPS. Lowering the graphic settings slightly can make up the lost FPS. Personally I feel it's a good trade-off for crazy games which push the card too hard (expression of opinion only, not to prove/invalidate anything).

But I agree small gain may make a good difference when you come to play crazy games like Crysis with MAXIMUM settings. It pushes the cards too hard. Stupid Microsoft Flight Simulator is another exception due to its poor graphic engine. It doesn't have good optimization and caching so it unnecessarily strains graphic cards.

Anyway CrossFire is a really cost ineffective. The gain is much smaller than expected. If I were you, I would try to max upgrade your single card first (eg buy a high-end HD4850 / HD4870), you should experience a much better performance.

P45 has more going for it then what you make it out WAI. its not just the small performance gain. P45 is cheaper for intel since they are using a small die process for it vs P45. the Gigabyte EP43-DS3L is the same price as the EP35-DS3L, the EP43 has more features and higher PWM phase. P4x also runns cooler then P35, as well as having no fsb issues with 45nm quads, as intel stated a while ago. now while P35 sports x16/x4 and asus did make a board that did CF in x8/x8 mode. P45 makes CF x8/x8 mode native from the NB, instead of P35 having to use 4 lanes from the SB for CF support.

As it stands P35 was a good when it was release P45 just makes things better. as well as being cheaper so that higher phase pwm can be added to boards. there is more to the P35 vs P45 talk here then what it seems your looking at.

My vote is P5Q Deluxe or P5Q3 Deluxe if you have DDR3 Ram

Wai-wai, I'm getting pretty tired of argueing with people such as yourself that all they do is quote stuff they read and quote pieces of it mind you to prove a point. Once you actually use some of the hardware and experience it for yourself only then I'm prepared to continue this debate, in the meantime I would encourage you to be cautious to continue you to try and influence people with no solid experience base on the hardware you try to dis-prove.

I have no reason to promote the P45 over the P35 but I do have more and enough 1st hand experience to know there is a substancial gain across the board going from the P35 to P45 especailly with OCing 45nm CPU's and CF configurations. I still own several (4 in fact) P35 boards and I will continue to do so.

To the OP, apologies for hi-jacking your thread but I would hate for to you make a decision based on ill-informed and theoretical advice.

P45 has more going for it then what you make it out WAI. its not just the small performance gain. P45 is cheaper for intel since they are using a small die process for it vs P45. the Gigabyte EP43-DS3L is the same price as the EP35-DS3L, the EP43 has more features and higher PWM phase. P4x also runns cooler then P35, as well as having no fsb issues with 45nm quads, as intel stated a while ago. now while P35 sports x16/x4 and asus did make a board that did CF in x8/x8 mode. P45 makes CF x8/x8 mode native from the NB, instead of P35 having to use 4 lanes from the SB for CF support.

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Thanks for the post.

Of course P45 itself is better than P35. Don't get me wrong that I'm saying P45 is no difference from P35. I don't know if people get the following points though:
(1) How much it's better and whether it justifies the cost (this is a very personal judgement. Different people have different values on "money"). There is more cost than just P45 motherboard alone. You should remember the cost of dearer DRR3, dearer CPU, expensive CF/SLI setup etc. to make a P45 build.
(2) Are you able to (fully) materialise those gains/benefits? Are they really useful to you?

I often see people building something that they don't need it at all (eg buying HD4850-HD4870 to watch HD movies). People also mismatch their components (eg buying 1000W PSU for a gaming system which needs max 300-400W)

OP only mentioned he needs a gaming system. Gaming alone doesn't tell much about his needs. Different gaming needs can lead to different suggestions.

Actually I'm interested to know why you think such a build is worthwhile. Is it because you don't mind spending proportionally more for relatively less gain? Or do you really think it's worth it, cost/performance-wise?

wai,
now you lead me to think you didnt even read my post.... as P4x cost less then P3x, as you can get a P43 based board from gigbyte for the same cost as a P35 board. im not one for suggesting all out money spending. i make suggestions based on what the person has for $$ and what motherboard has the best band/$$. P4x is just that over P3x, you seem to fail to see that. you make it out like P4x the highend boards are the only ones that matter when they dont. the main points of P4x out way what your tring to argue for. as if your building now there is no way to suggest a outdated chipset such as P35. considering that in alot of cases P4x board cost the same as P35, with P4x have more features. if you build/upgrade now and plan to keep the system from 6months to a year then you need P4x. PCIE 2.0 support is here to stay and can be used by current and last gen GPU's.

if i were to buy a board now for the ones im looking at compared to P35 ones. i would gladly pay in some cases the extra $10-20 bucks for P4x. after all i spend $189 on my Abit IP35-Pro last summer. now i can buy a P45 based board from Asus with more features and better CF for $149. that completly kills your argument that P35 is cheaper. please compare
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813127050 <- as you can see this is still the pro but with a minor update for better quad core ocing. this board is now $169 but my basis is for what i paid for my board new last summer.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131299&Tpk=asus+P5q-pro <- clearly the better deal at $149, so i saved $20 for more features and better performance, SWEET!

here agian throwing your P45 is more costly out the window.

Brolloks, your reply sounds rude.

Brolloks said:

Wai-wai, I'm getting pretty tired of argueing with people such as yourself that all they do is quote stuff they read and quote pieces of it mind you to prove a point.

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Funny enough.

When I list the reasons why P45 may not be a good choice for that price (especially if you don't know what you are doing), you said:

Out of the air? How did you know?

Then I showed my proofs and gave more explanations. You said:

All? How did you know it's all that I do?

If I were to quote one source, you might say:

Well... What could I say?

A person who likes to keep drawing generalization thoughtlessly said:

I don't know how good such kinds of 1st-hand experiences are.

Even if I quoted a friend of mine who used a P45 motherboard and told me it wasn't worth it, what would you say?

...I would hate for to you make a decision based on ill-informed and theoretical advice.

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To be blunt, what you does is to repeat the theoretical benefits of the specifications, together with a nice statement "I do have more and enough 1st hand experience to prove it" as a proof. Well, actually I'm a doctor in computer engineering, so why don't you trust my experiences?

I did make mistakes. I don't claim my advice is the best and 100% correct, but I don't see how "practical" your advice is either.

After all, what's wrong in quoting sources/quotations to back up my statements? Are you happier if I remember to reveal I actually have 1st-hand experiences on PCI Express and FSB issues?

I'm simply trying my best to tell what I know, trying hard to give reasons and facts so the OP can judge itself. It takes time to type and gather sources. I didn't intentionally mislead the OP and have any hidden agenda. Is there a rule that only people who have tested that particular motherboard is allowed to give "free" speech?

==================

If you own a P45 motherboard, what did you do better than the reviewers who also used the motherboard, provided statistics and gave their comments?

Simply by saying "WOW! I have first-hand experience now and I feel there is a substantial gain. Go for a P45 motherboard!"?

Of course your subjective 1st-hand experience is much better than their comments backed with objective benchmarks results and statistics. Their comments and experiences are just, well, rubbish. Your experiences and comments are superior, aren't you?

I remember someone said he used both, and he could proudly say this product from brand A is much better than that product from brand B. But what he doesn't realise is the fact that both models are the same and is produced by the same OEM. What a good 1st-hand experience!

Finally I want to make it clear that I never say 1st-hand experience is always rubbish or worthless, in case if you start "generalizing" again.

PS: Sorry for the OP about the rant. This is probably my last reply to him unless he brings up factual info which is relevant to the topic.

Evilsizer said:

wai,
now you lead me to think you didnt even read my post.... as P4x cost less then P3x, as you can get a P43 based board from gigbyte for the same cost as a P35 board.

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I read that. If this is only the 2 boards that you can choose, it's not a bad idea to go for P43 (of course you should also compare the other aspects of the boards, not just the chipset alone). Sorry if I sound like that you must still stick with P35 even if the price favours P4X. It's not my intention.

After all P35 motherboards are still cheaper than P45 motherboards, generally speaking. I'm still looking for a P35 motherboard as an upgrade. There are a few P35 boards with US$7X-$8X only which can build a decent gaming system. In case if you are interested, I'm thinking about Foxconn P35 series. You can get P35A in newegg. I wan to buy P35A-S which is available in my local stores at a cheap price (US$8X).

If you accepts P31, it would be cheaper (US$5X-6X). I can buy them in my local stores.

Note: The P45 board that I might be interested is at least US$40 expensive in my case, so I chose not to pick a P45 board.

i make suggestions based on what the person has for $$ and what motherboard has the best band/$$. P4x is just that over P3x, you seem to fail to see that. you make it out like P4x the highend boards are the only ones that matter when they dont.

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Sorry, but did you read that I said "P45 is better than P35 itself"?

I did mention you shouldn't look at the cost of the motherboard alone. When you pick a higher version of motherboard, you may sometimes need to pay more in other aspects too (eg upgrade old components which can't fit in the new motherboard, or upgrade to make use of the new features/technology), or higher electricity bills if it matters to you, and so on. [if those issues don't apply to you, just learn to ignore them, ok?]

I have one question: what if my other components can't take real advantages of the new motherboard P45, should I still pay the premium (ranging from US$2X-7X)?

if you build/upgrade now and plan to keep the system from 6months to a year then you need P4x.

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A new socket is coming out. Your board will be outdated soon. I would save money and buy a cheap P35 motherboard, and wait for a better motherboard later, or just not upgrade at all.


Finally, although it should be obvious, if the P35 boards that you like are about the same price as the P45 boards counterparts, I agree it's not a bad idea to go for P45 boards even though the real performance gain is small. The support of new technology is a great thing.

Wai_Wai said:

It's an example of perception vs reality.

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Exactly. Your perception is that its the same speed. In reality, its not. I can read my own benches thank you. And I know when someone (Who has no experience with these 2 products in similar conditions it seems) is wrong.

Surprised no one has recommended the Maximus II Formula. That one would get my vote if we're talking DDR2. If we're talking DDR3, I say that new Gigabyte GA-EX45C Extreme something or other. I might be way off on the model number

-Collin-

Cheator said:

Exactly. Your perception is that its the same speed. In reality, its not.

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That's incorrect.

You DID feel the difference, and it's true. However the reasoning is wrong.

First PCI Express 1.0 (P35) is not severely limited, even if we are running CF/SLI, as you may seem to think. Actually they can provide enough bandwidth in most cases, as seen by the benchmark tests. Jumping from PCI Express 1.0 (P35) to PCI Express 2.0 (P45) only boost the performance slightly (that is the FPS gain in that case), as seen by the benchmark tests.

However due to the fact that a few modern games push the graphic cards so hard, a few FPS boost can make a REAL difference. Crysis is one of the few.

Hope it's clear now.