Smoothwall > router with tomato for QOS?

[bLack0ut]

I've got a buffalo WHR-HP-G54 running tomato as my router atm, but its QoS is a little shaky. It does fairly well sorting normal downloads, streaming video, and games, but once heavy bittorrenting comes into play (1000+ connections), web surfing and gaming all get hit by high pings/delays.

I'm pretty sure it's due to the memory/cpu limitations of the router, so I was wondering if a smoothwall on a PII with 128mb ram would be able to handle QoS better at that levels of bittorrent.

EDIT: reworded question:

Will smoothwall on, for example, a 266mhz/256mb or 400mhz/512mb show significant improvement over my current router in QoS with heavy bittorrenting and online FPS/web surfing? To the point where I can view web pages as if I'm not downloading anything at all?

[VinnyTAMU]

I've got a buffalo WHR-HP-G54 running tomato as my router atm, but its QoS is a little shaky. It does fairly well sorting normal downloads, streaming video, and games, but once heavy bittorrenting comes into play (1000+ connections), web surfing and gaming all get hit by high pings/delays.

I'm pretty sure it's due to the memory/cpu limitations of the router, so I was wondering if a smoothwall on a PII with 128mb ram would be able to handle QoS better at that levels of bittorrent.

Well I don't have experience with smoothwall, but I can tell you that pfsense (http://pfsense.org/) ran fine and provided a great firewall appliance on a PIII 1.0GHz 256MB of ram dell.

[thideras]

I run my smoothwall with a P2 400MHz processor and 512mb of RAM. It will max out the RAM, but that is not because of QOS. I have never had it choke.

Even with that slow of a processor, usage never goes about 10% or so.

[bLack0ut]

I run my smoothwall with a P2 400MHz processor and 512mb of RAM. It will max out the RAM, but that is not because of QOS. I have never had it choke.

Even with that slow of a processor, usage never goes about 10% or so.

Sorry, that's what I meant. I think the router is struggling with all the connections from BT with its 14mb ram, which is also screwing up its QoS. How many connections can your smoothwall handle?

@Vinny: Did you run snort/ntop on that as well? pfsense.org says a minimum of 512mb RAM is needed to run those packages as well (http://www.pfsense.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=52&Itemid=49)

[rainless]

I've got a buffalo WHR-HP-G54 running tomato as my router atm, but its QoS is a little shaky. It does fairly well sorting normal downloads, streaming video, and games, but once heavy bittorrenting comes into play (1000+ connections), web surfing and gaming all get hit by high pings/delays.

I'm pretty sure it's due to the memory/cpu limitations of the router, so I was wondering if a smoothwall on a PII with 128mb ram would be able to handle QoS better at that levels of bittorrent.

My WRT54G is already 200mhz... I guess having more ram would help (I think my version 2.0 has 16 megs ram, I think QOS is pretty ram heavy.)

But your PII wouldn't be faster. Hard to believe most modern routers are faster than old computers. :)

[Adragontattoo]

My WRT54G is already 200mhz... I guess having more ram would help (I think my version 2.0 has 16 megs ram, I think QOS is pretty ram heavy.)

But your PII wouldn't be faster. Hard to believe most modern routers are faster than old computers. :)

P2 400MHz processor and 512mb of RAM

umm you are saying that a 200mhz processor in a router is faster then a P2 400?

[Trap05]

I hope not

[Jayws]

I swear by my WRT54GL on v24 SP1 dd-wrt. Absolutely no problems torrenting or pulling heavy traffic through. My (new) connection averages 30mbits (3.75 MB/s) down and I've simultaneously torrented around 2.5MB/s down for extended periods of time without slow downs or hang ups. I love dd-wrt because I am able to limit my total amount of connections as well as set the time-outs for UDP and TCP connections to remove idle ones quickly and efficiently.


$60 on the egg, it was on sale with free shipping but not anymore :\
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833124190

[bLack0ut]

I swear by my WRT54GL on v24 SP1 dd-wrt. Absolutely no problems torrenting or pulling heavy traffic through. My (new) connection averages 30mbits (3.75 MB/s) down and I've simultaneously torrented around 2.5MB/s down for extended periods of time without slow downs or hang ups. I love dd-wrt because I am able to limit my total amount of connections as well as set the time-outs for UDP and TCP connections to remove idle ones quickly and efficiently.


$60 on the egg, it was on sale with free shipping but not anymore :\
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833124190

According to the specs, it has only 2mb ram more than mine. I've tried running dd-wrt, its always been slower/more bloat than tomato.

The problem isn't just bittorrenting, as my router does that just fine. The problem is heavy bittorrenting with QoS while playing some online FPS like TF2. Even if I set Bittorrent to the lowest priority and TF2 to the highest, my pings will still jump all around 300+.

I want to be able to run a bunch of torrents and still be able to surf the web/play games as if I'm not downloading anything at all (QoS should scale back bittorrent to provide more bandwidth to the more important applications). I guess I should reword my question.

Will smoothwall on, for example, a 266mhz/256mb or 400mhz/512mb show significant improvement over my current router in QoS with heavy bittorrenting and online FPS/web surfing? To the point where I can view web pages as if I'm not downloading anything at all?

[rainless]

P2 400MHz processor and 512mb of RAM

umm you are saying that a 200mhz processor in a router is faster then a P2 400?

Obviously not. :)

I saw the 128 and in my "completely out of it" mind... I thought it was 128mhz... which, in retrospect, makes no sense. :beer:

[Jayws]

According to the specs, it has only 2mb ram more than mine. I've tried running dd-wrt, its always been slower/more bloat than tomato.

Yes, on your router. I'm not sure about the specific processor and wireless card specs between the two but simple numbers like processor speed and RAM aren't everything when comparing routers. There are also many variations of the dd-wrt firmware. The recommended one for my router didn't do too well so I experimented with a different variation and found much better results.

The problem isn't just bittorrenting, as my router does that just fine. The problem is heavy bittorrenting with QoS while playing some online FPS like TF2. Even if I set Bittorrent to the lowest priority and TF2 to the highest, my pings will still jump all around 300+.

That could either be your router or it could be bittorrent chewing up your bandwidth. Try excersizing some limitations? When multi-tasking while torrenting I limit my download to 75% and my upload to 50% through the torrenting application. The only time that I've had the problems that you describe here is when the torrents chew too much bandwidth, not connections.

I want to be able to run a bunch of torrents and still be able to surf the web/play games as if I'm not downloading anything at all (QoS should scale back bittorrent to provide more bandwidth to the more important applications). I guess I should reword my question.

Programs/routers designed to regulate QoS are not always that intelligent... if you allow very active torrents to max your connection you will experience a slow down. Some methods of ensuring QoS are better than others. Priority setting doesn't come to mind to me as one of those solutions. Like I mentioned above, try limiting the amount of bandwidth your torrents can use.

Will smoothwall on, for example, a 266mhz/256mb or 400mhz/512mb show significant improvement over my current router in QoS with heavy bittorrenting and online FPS/web surfing? To the point where I can view web pages as if I'm not downloading anything at all?

I am not sure about this, my experience with smoothwalls is limited. I'll leave that for someone else to answer.

[bLack0ut]

That could either be your router or it could be bittorrent chewing up your bandwidth. Try excersizing some limitations? When multi-tasking while torrenting I limit my download to 75% and my upload to 50% through the torrenting application. The only time that I've had the problems that you describe here is when the torrents chew too much bandwidth, not connections.

QoS, with the proper total bandwidth settings correct, should be able to handle this on the fly.


Programs/routers designed to regulate QoS are not always that intelligent... if you allow very active torrents to max your connection you will experience a slow down. Some methods of ensuring QoS are better than others. Priority setting doesn't come to mind to me as one of those solutions. Like I mentioned above, try limiting the amount of bandwidth your torrents can use.


Limiting the bandwidth is avoiding the problem... I am looking for a QoS solution where I DON'T have to limit any bandwidth, and instead simply have to list priorities. The QoS should be able to perform traffic shaping on its own.

That being said, I have used dd-wrt on several different routers, and it always just seemed slow and bloated to me. I am thinking that a real computer with smoothwall (or pfsense) should be able to handle QoS more efficiently, but I would like someone to verify this before I build a smoothwall box.

[Jayws]

Sorry then, that's not me. :\

[thideras]

That being said, I have used dd-wrt on several different routers, and it always just seemed slow and bloated to me. I am thinking that a real computer with smoothwall (or pfsense) should be able to handle QoS more efficiently, but I would like someone to verify this before I build a smoothwall box.I have not tried custom firmware on my linksys router, but my smoothwall has absolutely no noticeable lag.

If you have a computer that can run it, it is like it isn't even there :)

[bLack0ut]

I have not tried custom firmware on my linksys router, but my smoothwall has absolutely no noticeable lag.

If you have a computer that can run it, it is like it isn't even there :)

I'm assuming you have QoS setup. You mind running a little test for me?

Also, why does smoothwall max out 512mb ram? jw

[thideras]

I'm assuming you have QoS setup. You mind running a little test for me?Sure, PM me the details please

Also, why does smoothwall max out 512mb ram? jwIt does? That is all I have for it...

[splat]

the problems with Torrents come from the thousands of TCP connections it makes. See if you can drop the timeout and increase the number of connections. Obviously raising the # of allowed connections means more are available, and dropping the time out means that dead connections will be freed up faster.

[bLack0ut]

the problems with Torrents come from the thousands of TCP connections it makes. See if you can drop the timeout and increase the number of connections. Obviously raising the # of allowed connections means more are available, and dropping the time out means that dead connections will be freed up faster.

I've messed around with those settings, setting it 4096 connections, 30s tcp timeout, 90s udp, doesn't really help. Mind you, this is only at around 750 connections, and I'd like to be able to use 4k+ if I wanted to.

thid's gonna test the max capability of his smoothwall for me, so that should be a good indicator :)

[Nebulous]

Great info guyz, thx for posting. I was thinking what to do with the P3 1.2Ghz crapbox I have collecting dust and now I know; turning it into a smoothwall :D:thup:

Has plenty of balls:

768mb ram
40 or 60gb hdd
cdrw
1 NIC

I can always add another NIC and I'll be in business. Found a few tuts too. This will be interesting.

[Trap05]

That will work nicely I have a similar machine and I'm just waiting on my new interweb connection before I fire it up once again.

[thideras]

Here is where my gaming session started crapping out (400+ ms).

I ran this on my server to make sure it wasn't a local limitation.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g121/thideras/torrentmax.jpg

I really don't think this is a smoothwall limitation since CPU usage capped out at 25%

[Lotec25]

i been running smoothwall for a few years now. And I usually have 30 to 50 torrents running at one time and i have never had any major lag. A P2 with some ram is a dang good box for a smoothwall. I also have a WRT54G modded with firmware and no matter how you do it they just cant hold up to a dedicated computer with a good firewall running on it. You can also check out http://m0n0.ch/wall/ . Same area as smoothwall just not as many mods available. I have ran this for a few months at times.

Linux uses memory different then windows does. I have 215mb in my SW and it stays full. Does not bother it at all.

[bLack0ut]

i been running smoothwall for a few years now. And I usually have 30 to 50 torrents running at one time and i have never had any major lag. A P2 with some ram is a dang good box for a smoothwall. I also have a WRT54G modded with firmware and no matter how you do it they just cant hold up to a dedicated computer with a good firewall running on it. You can also check out http://m0n0.ch/wall/ . Same area as smoothwall just not as many mods available. I have ran this for a few months at times.

Linux uses memory different then windows does. I have 215mb in my SW and it stays full. Does not bother it at all.

You guys recommend snort/ntop on the smoothwall box as well?


Here is where my gaming session started crapping out (400+ ms).

I ran this on my server to make sure it wasn't a local limitation.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g121/thideras/torrentmax.jpg

I really don't think this is a smoothwall limitation since CPU usage capped out at 25%

And just to clarify, it crapped out due to too many connections or to too much bandwidth?

Did you add torrents in succession until QoS failed?

Either way, looks pretty solid, think smoothwall is the way to go :). Thanks for the testing thid.

[thideras]

No, I can max out my bandwidth, I'm sure it is my ISP limiting my connection number.

[Lotec25]

snort/ntop are ok. To tell yea the truth not really needed. The OS comes stock locked down so well there is really no need for it. You can allways install them see how it works. SW is easy as all heck to install so if you have to reinstall it a few times not really a long process. I have the same problem with mine. I max out my provider connection way before i ever start to slow down the smoothwall. Just Keep in mind the more mods you add the more memory/cpu SW will use. I allways try to keep the mods low just a few that make it a little easier. Like Time sync for my comps i do have snort installed. And Adv firewall. Some of the addons eat alot more then others like proxy/vpn those are CPU killers