220W Peltier Assisted water cooling - 22'c idle 28'c under load!!!!! HELP!

[stewarttherippe]

Hi,
I am using an AMD Duron (Morgon) 1GHz CPU on A7V-266e and am getting 22'c idle and 28'c under load despite having water/de-icer cooling with a 220W peliter (running about 180W on 12v)
I am using a DangerDen Maze copper waterblock,
standard 3/8" reinforced tubing,
radiator with 2x12cm Fans,
about 50% 'Holts deicer and summer coolant' with 50% water,
artic silver II,
'Anodised Reservoir' bought from tekheads.co.uk.
220W peliter (rated 220W at 15.1v but im doing around 11.41V),
400W Macron PSU running 1x 12cm fan on 5v, 1x 12cm fan on 12v and 220W peliter on 12v.
450W Enermax PSU running everything else.

I notice 'ice' forming on cold plate when cooler is running (i took water block off cpu and just had the pump, fans and pelt running) i put a drop of water on it and it froze in about 10seconds so I assume it is below 0'c.
I have put artic silver on both sides of the peltier.
I also put foam around the water block held on with 'duck tape' to prevent condensation when on CPU (this also improved the cooling of the CPU by about 3-5'c.

I have the radiator in the house and my room temp is around 19-22'c.


Help Me, what is the problem likely to be?

[WarriorII]

1st Welcome to the FOURMS!

ok.... what problem? for what you describe, everything sounds normal.
Although, I am not a expert with pelters.

It sounds like you have a MAJOR cool pelt. Or should that be MAJOR OVER KILL pelt?

28c ? ya ya ya. I'm lucky to get 40c. :p

Please explain your prob. I think I'm missing your prob.

[stewarttherippe]

I have heard people getting around 5'c and lower with 160W peliters and very similar set ups to me. So I am concerned that maybe my water block is a bit lame and not smooth enough etc.
I am putting about 180W into my peltier so I should be getting at least as low as 10'c.
:(

[Krusty]

Originally posted by stewarttherippe
I have heard people getting around 5'c and lower with 160W peliters and very similar set ups to me. So I am concerned that maybe my water block is a bit lame and not smooth enough etc.
I am putting about 180W into my peltier so I should be getting at least as low as 10'c.
:(


You're putting about 180 watts in. Lets say you are creating 100 watts of heat from your cpu. That leaves 80 watts of heat dissipation. The delta T from hot side to cold side optimally is about 70c. Since you are running at about 1/3 the optimal level now, you should be running with a delta T of about 20c, right?

So...what's the temperature of your water? If it is as high as 45, that is about the temperature expected.

What are you using to measure temperature? mbm5 is known to give false readings.

[Miss_Man]

Did you measure with your multimeter to see what voltage you're getting with the peltier plugged in? How many amps does the macron give at 12v?
3/8"? I bet flow rate must be pretty slow, is your waterblock or water too warm?
Is there enough pressure between peltier and cold plate?

[WarriorII]

Ahhhhh, ok. (re-reading your post now)

OK, 3/8" tubing, Need 1/2". Better flow.....
For ever quart of water, use 1 oz of water wetter.
and depending on the total capasity of your system a "Touch" of anti-Freeze.
Anti-Freeze is not very heat absorbing.
The water wetter will make up for this.
Both have anti-corrosive properties in them, for dis-similar metal systems.

Please go through some of the other post and read about thier set ups. If you haven't already.
Also, read anything else you can find in the water cooling section from the front page.

I have a H20 sys I am currently working on.

Good luck.

[trey_w]

it should be alot cooler than that

i run a koolance setup with the same temps, and most of the time better

[Colin]

I'm not quite sure what radiator you have but it may not be up to the task. Check your coolant temps. Cutting back the amount of antifreeze in your coolant will improve the heat capacity.

If your coldplate gets frosty, the CPU may not be making good contact with the coldplate. Pelts are often concave and require more thermal goop in the center. You may want to pull the cold plate and check the contact patchs for the pelt. Note that you can get a frosty coldplate even with poor contact between the waterblock/pelt/colplate but it won't function well under load. I prefer to run a Compunurse probe on my coldplate to get an idea of what is going on.

[Les56]

Agree with Colin.
Although there maybe a number contributing causes my suspicion for a major player is water temp.Suspect your waternayberising to nearly 40c.
I am currently cooling a Morgan1200 with a 220w Pelt and Maze2.2 on a ECS K7S5A .
At default 1.75v v-core would be getting Idle Tenps 25+C below water .temp. Dunno the temp cos never run at default.
However @1500 and 1.92 V-core(75w*????) am getting "In socket" I dle temps ~ 10c C and Loaded ~ 17C.with water/reservoir at ~30C. From the limited data available I suspect the ECS K7S5A reads high on sub-ambient/case /mb temps (conversely low on above anbient) so would expect your temps to be no higher than mine.
To maintain a water temp at ~30c I run 2 Heath-Robinson cooling loops with radiotors and fan-cooled dash-plates.With only 1(Senfu) radiator my water temp will rise ~40c with corresponding increase in CPU Temps.

* Treating as producing 90% wattage of Athlon MP. Not got sorted out yet.

[stewarttherippe]

I am using the standard thermistor in the BIOS.

The radiator does feel like its about 40'c, if I was to mount the
radiator on the outside wall of my house I would expect it to get to at least 10'c or maybe even freezing (I live in the UK ;).
Would this drop my CPU temp by about 30'c or something like that?

Also I did notice that when I removed my peltier from the water block, by looking at the Artic Silver mark there was a significant lack of it around the center so I might stick some more on there.

In your replys could you vote weither I should be getting lower, higher or I am getting about the normal temp for my cooling system.

Thanx
StewartTheRipper;)

[trey_w]

if your using the reading from your bios that could be your problem of the temp reading too high

[Warlord2]

I would say your getting way too high of temps.....
I run a much hotter system thin you and am getting only 10c higher with just a H20 setup

I would say your looking for subzero temps if your doing it all right.

how many AMPs did you say your pelt is running on?
and how much pressure are you putting on the pelt?
and how fat is your coldplate? If its too thin you could be bending with too much pressure.

[stewarttherippe]

My PSU can handle 15A on the 12V rail. The cables on the PSU are actually getting fairly hot (about warm radiator heat).
I wouldnt say I was putting loads of pressure on the peltier, but it's as much as I could turn the screws on the water block.
My coldplate is about 80mm fat I am certain it wont be bending.

[Warlord2]

I dont think you have enough AMPs going to the tec

heres the 220watt tec specs

Qmax = 220w
Vmax = 15.1v
Imax = 23.8A
Delta = 68c


you should get better psu before you burn that one out

[stewarttherippe]

As I am only running the Pelt at 11.40V the current drain goes down. (There is an inverse square law). I worked this out and at 12V the pelt would drain about 170W and my PSU can handle 180W on 12V.

[stewarttherippe]

This is my waterblock BTW.
http://www.tekheads.co.uk/products.php?view=product&productId=600501

I will we getting a new Athlon XP 1600+ (1.4GHz) Tommorow and a bottle of water wetter ;)

What should I be able to get the XP to with a temp of around 25'c (according to the thermal sensor)???? Is there a chance I might get it up to 1.7GHz (beyond 2000+) on my A7V266-e???

[SteenkyBastage]

i dont pelt cool my watercooling rig...

i did see a few things i was curious about, tho. and i could be way off, so lemme know if i am.

warlord... am i misreading your specs on the pelt itself? i come up with almost 360w using those specs (w=v*a). i've never looked at pelt specs before, so maybe i am misinterpreting.


stewart... your psu can handle 180w on the 12v. you are running your pelt at 12v. that means (if i'm doing this right) you can have a total of 15 or so amps being delivered to the pelt (minus your fans or whatnot else you have running). if warlord's specs are correct, it's supposed to be 23.8a @ 15.1v. is it possible that you are actually just SERIOUSLY undervolt/amp'ing your pelt to the point that it is not performing up to par?

from what i've read in other posts, most people have used separate, higher amperage/voltage dedicated psu's for their pelts. i would have to imagine this is due to the computer psu's lack of volt/amp when it comes to these high drain pelts.

once again, i'm no pelt expert. so this could all be way off... just a thought, tho.

good luck!

and welcome to the forums, btw!

[Warlord2]

stewart... your psu can handle 180w on the 12v. you are running your pelt at 12v. that means (if i'm doing this right) you can have a total of 15 or so amps being delivered to the pelt (minus your fans or whatnot else you have running). if warlord's specs are correct, it's supposed to be 23.8a @ 15.1v. is it possible that you are actually just SERIOUSLY undervolt/amp'ing your pelt to the point that it is not performing up to par?

thats what Im trying to say

and yes your specs are correct

a computer psu wont do

you need a bench psu that can handle that much current

[ButcherUK]

Have you measured voltage and current? if not you should do. If your TEC draws 180W it's not providing more than about 100W of cooling. If your TEC draws more than 180W your PSU will burn out. Either way you'll need a bench PSU I suspect. www.wsplc.com will sell you a nice bench psu with a suitable rating (Check their special offer section for a 15V 40A psu for £100 - bargain).
Also check your clamping pressure it's very hard to overclamp TECs due to the huge pressure required.

[Les56]

For info:
Just popped a Duro800 into the 220w Peltier/Maze2.2/ ECS K7S5A.rig .(Morgan sleeping)
Ran 220w Peltier at 8v,8a(both measured) and Duron @ 1000 and 1.6v ( = 45watt = MP @1000 and 1.75v[Radiate]).
Temps (not fully Stabilised)
Water ~25c, "In Socket" CPU ~ Idle 11c , Load ~15c.

[Miss_Man]

Darn Butcher, you bring up clamping pressure on every pelt thread and its making even me doubt the pressure I have on mine, even though I remembered screwing down my screws pretty hard. :)
BTW, tabulating some results right now and I forgot the technical term for the difference between ambient and CPU temp. Delta T?

[KILLorBE]

I'm pretty sure your PSU cant handle the TEC.
According to my calculations I found the following:
@ 12V your TEC draws about 15.7A (~188W)
@ 11.4V your TEC draws about 14.8A (~169W)
If these calculations are correct, it would explain the voltage drop (from 12V to 11.4V), as your PSU is rated @ 15A 12V, another thing with your PSU is, that it is a generic PSU, and these are usually overrated.
**NOTE** these calculations are on the low side, so your TEC probably draws more.

Another thing I found (I'm not sure if this is correct):
When you try to get rid of 100W with your TEC it would draw the following:
@ 12V 17,4A
@ 11.4V 16.56A
Don't ask me why, I'm trying to figure out why that is myself.

BTW:you should try to run a PSU at about 80% of its max rating (or less).
oh and about the "lack" of AS around the center, it might mean you have good contact and enough pressure on the CPU, I have that too, the AS is only meant to fill the microscopic gaps.

[ButcherUK]

Originally posted by Miss_Man
Darn Butcher, you bring up clamping pressure on every pelt thread and its making even me doubt the pressure I have on mine, even though I remembered screwing down my screws pretty hard. :)
BTW, tabulating some results right now and I forgot the technical term for the difference between ambient and CPU temp. Delta T?

Heh, well the acid test will soon come as my 220W peltier came today (Whee) so we shall see if my clamping pressure is up to scratch :D

[stewarttherippe]

Hi,
Well I got my PSU from Maplin about a week ago and they have a 15 day return policy...
I am only running the pelt on 12v and 2 fans on the 5v that's it.
Do you think I should take my PSU back and buy one of them 15v things from www.wsplc.com????
Your Opinion will be my choice. ;)

[stewarttherippe]

Just been looking at those PSUs on www.wsplc.com I think Im getting one!
Just realised that one of them could power 2 220W Pelts - Im getting a dual Athlon MP board in about 2 weeks or so and 2 MP 1900+'s!
Cheers For pointing that site out ButcherUK.

StewartTheRipper

[SteenkyBastage]

yeah, i'd be willing to bet on a better psu working much better for you. according to warlord's specs, those pelts would actually draw up to 360w each. that's double what your current psu is rated for.

now i have a pelt question. since it seems that the pelt wattage is not the actual wattage it draws from the psu... is that intended to be a heat wattage ammount? in other words, where does the 220w come from if it actually draws 360w from the psu?

[KILLorBE]

Originally posted by stewarttherippe
Hi,
Well I got my PSU from Maplin about a week ago and they have a 15 day return policy...
I am only running the pelt on 12v and 2 fans on the 5v that's it.
Do you think I should take my PSU back and buy one of them 15v things from www.wsplc.com????
Your Opinion will be my choice. ;)

I would take the PSU back and look for a "MeanWell" PSU, tho these "MeanWell" PSU's are probably pretty expensive.
So the 15V 40A from www.wsplc.com is a good solution (I would go for that).

Good luck with your decision, and let us know how things go.

[John1975]

here is my .02

all I know about pelts I have read here, the same with water cooling.

the pelt can get the temp down to way below freezing right?

so I guess you are hoping to get your temps that low.

but the water cooler can only get the temp down to room temp.

so if your cpu is not putting out enough heat to get the pelt over room temp at an idle, then your watercooler is actually helping to heat your pelt up instead of cool it down and the lowest temp you can get is room temp.

if you think this post is garbage I can delete it also

[Warlord2]

does www.wsplc.com sell to the US?
if so how much would the 15v at 40amp one be in US money?

[ButcherUK]

The 220W is heat moved deltaT = 0. The actual consumption is much higher as they aren't 100% efficient. I fired mine up today - at 15V it draws 23A. At 13.8V it draws 21.5A, these are with a bare coldplate so with a cpu on it may be a bit higher. The 20A figure was about 12.5V (might be of use for dual TECs on a 40A supply - a 50A would be better though). These volt/amp figures are off the meters on my psu (3-15V @ 25A cont.) so I'm not sure of accuracy - 5% probably. So at 13.8V you are looking at around 290W consumption - this thing gets HOT. With my maze2 on it the hotside of the block got very warm to the touch. Meanwhile the coldplate iced up.
Not sure about wsplc shipping to the US, you should be able to find somethign cheaper over there anyway. £100 is about $150 in US money, plus shipping (which could add up to $50 - these things aren't light)

[stewarttherippe]

Right that's it, im going for it! Getting that 40A Beast £99.00!!!!

I got my XP 1600+ today and got it to 1.74GHz juts by altering the FSB, no multipliers or voltage change!!!!
I think the think that stopped it getting higher was the mobo/ram being unstable, so I'm gonna have to unlock it and do it the 1337 way! I got some silver paint ;)

BTW I got 15A cable for my pelt from Maplin and it gets very warm! I though it was only meant to be drawing about 15a so the cable should handle it! WIERD! Also the actual cable attached to the pelt gets warm to (the one that came with the pelt!)
Does it matter if I put the current the opposite way round the pelt (+ to - and - to +) if I change the pelt over? Does this affect the efficiency of the pelt? I ask this because I pulls the wires off when I got it by accident and soldered them on (not sure if the right way) so I checked which side was cold after wiring and used it like that. Should this be a problem?

StewartTheRipper

[ButcherUK]

I'm using 3 6A cables in parallel atm (as I forgot to bring my 30A cable back from my parent's house). They get a bit warm. At 13.8V this thing is running at 21.5A so I'm exceeding cable specs. ;)
As for opposite direction, it shouldn't matter. I can see how easy it'd be to break those cables off though, the connector is thin ;)

[stewarttherippe]

I've been experimenting!
I got my XP 1600+ to 1575Mhz rock solid stable just by doing FSB to 150 and increase volts to 1.825 with current CPU temp at 33'c? under normal load (about 20-30%) is that a good, bad or normal OC for 220W Pelt assisted water cooling?

[CrystalMethod]

Still sounds a bit high. What fans ( how big, how many)are you using on your rad?

[stewarttherippe]

I am using 2x 12cm Sunon fans running at 15V (fans rated at 12V)