First-timer WC setup RFC

[QBobWatson]

Hi all,

Back in the day I would keep my case open and point a 2-foot room fan at the inside, but in my old age I've gotten tired of fan noise and addicted to (computing) power, so I'm finally ready to make the leap to water cooling. The goals of this setup are silence and performance, in that order. I'm hoping to keep this under $500. I have a basic toolbox, but I have no means to do even simple fabrication or modding. Here's what I'm hoping to cool:


Gigabyte GA-EP45T-DS3R: the northbridge gets unacceptably hot
Intel Q9550, overclocked to 3.57 GHz at 1.3V
ATI Radeon HD 4850, possible upgrade to 4870x2 in a few months
All of this inside the beautiful and amazingly quiet Antec P180 case


I'm hoping to cool it all on a single loop (I realize I'll probably need a second with a 4870x2), chained together in this order:


Swiftech MCP655 Vario
Apogee GTZ
Swiftech MCW30
Swiftech MCW60-R2 with Scythe VGA chip heatsinks
Swiftech MCR320-QP
Swiftech MCRES-MICRO Rev2


Here's the complete list of other hardware I believe I'll need:


3*Yate Loon D12SL-12 (the slow ones) for the radiator
10' Tygon 1/2" ID tubing (is that enough?)
Danger Den high flow fittings to replace plastic fittings
Stainless steel worm-drive clamps
Petra's PT Nuke
2*radbox v1 for mounting


Also I'd be uncomfortable without some monitoring hardware:


Scythe KM02 fan controller and temp monitor
Koolance temp sensor plug for the reservoir
Koolance inline temp sensor inserted just before the radiator
Koolance INS-FM17 Flow Meter: lets you monitor your coolant flow on a fan meter! How cool is that?


I'd really appreciate it if you could give me any suggestions. I do have some specific questions:


Is there anything I'm forgetting? It will drive me up the wall if I order all this and I'm missing something essential that I can't pick up locally.
I'm planning on putting the radiator on top of my case with the fans on the bottom blowing up, but I'm not willing to drill screw-holes, so I was thinking I'd screw the resboxes onto two of the fans and attach some feet, and just sit it on top of the case. Is this reasonable?


Thanks in advance for your help!

[billb]

Hi all,



Scythe KM02 fan controller and temp monitor
Koolance temp sensor plug for the reservoir
Koolance inline temp sensor inserted just before the radiator
Koolance INS-FM17 Flow Meter: lets you monitor your coolant flow on a fan meter! How cool is that?



If you put temp controlled fans on a rad, as the rad heats up the fans speed up and cool the water better, then the cooler water causes the air going through the rad to cool, and the fans slow down. Then the water gets hotter, the fans speed up and it all starts over again.

A water temp sensor (1/2") anywhere in the loop and a manual fan speed controller is about the best setup. There's no reason to monitor the rad air temp.

If you can't find 1/2" stuff, use a bypass loop. You don't need to know how much water is flowing (you can always do the "bucket test") just that it is flowing.

[QBobWatson]

If you put temp controlled fans on a rad, as the rad heats up the fans speed up and cool the water better, then the cooler water causes the air going through the rad to cool, and the fans slow down. Then the water gets hotter, the fans speed up and it all starts over again.

A water temp sensor (1/2") anywhere in the loop and a manual fan speed controller is about the best setup. There's no reason to monitor the rad air temp.

If you can't find 1/2" stuff, use a bypass loop. You don't need to know how much water is flowing (you can always do the "bucket test") just that it is flowing.

Thanks for the advice billb. The fans on the Scythe controller are actually independent from the temp readouts, so I don't think this will be a problem. Honestly the only reason I want the two readouts (before and after the radiator) is to be able to calculate its wattage capacity. And as long as the flow meter won't hurt anything, the circuitry that lets you read the number on a fan speed indicator is just too cool a gadget to pass up.

[QuietIce]

You can certainly use the in-line sensor you have planned but just as effective with less restriction is a simple piece of 1/2" copper pipe insulated by some good foam to isolate it from room temps and a normal thermal sensor attached to the copper. Readouts will be just as accurate and since the copper pipe doesn't require fittings and is the same size as the tubing it adds no resistance to the loop.

You may also want to consider a couple of feet of thin-walled Tygon and some SmartCoils to make those tight bends between your blocks. The CPU-NB or NB-GPU bends are very tight for normal tubing.

I've found the best screw clamps at the auto parts store (YRMV). Stainless steel with brass screws are excellent clamps if available.

[phil178821]

alright, so your choices look great.

so a few things..

first I would go for a Thermochill 120.3pa rad over the Swiftech. Its a lot more expensive, but it can perform a few degrees better at a much lower noise level.

That said, low yate loons are not enough if you stick with the Swiftech rad. I would get high yates if you stick with the swiftech rad or mediums if you go with the thermochill.. all in all, I would tie them all into a sunbeam rheobus. they are cheap and great for silencing your fans. You can possibly add a shroud, although performance game MAY not be noticeable. Also, you can add fans to each side in a push pull fashion.

One big thing you may not have noticed.. The Yate loon fans have CLOSED CORNERS, thus, long screws are needed for mounting them. ( I didnt realize that and had to tape my fans on a for a few days, which resulted in them falling off and one breaking!) Petras has some long ones for the TC rads.

also, do your best to find the version of the rad box that is metal not the crappy flimsy plastic. I think ver. 1 is metal, so you should be good.

And yea, I would definitely suggest a second loop if you upgrade your vga.

[phil178821]

I'm planning on putting the radiator on top of my case with the fans on the bottom blowing up, but I'm not willing to drill screw-holes, so I was thinking I'd screw the resboxes onto two of the fans and attach some feet, and just sit it on top of the case. Is this reasonable?


Now sure If i get what you are going for. Maybe sketch it out? I would probably mount it off of the back, though. Top mounted rads, imo, are hideous and would ruin your case.

[QBobWatson]

You may also want to consider a couple of feet of thin-walled Tygon and some SmartCoils to make those tight bends between your blocks. The CPU-NB or NB-GPU bends are very tight for normal tubing.

Good call -- can you tell me where to buy thin-walled Tygon? All the Tygon I could find is 1/2" ID, 3/4" OD. Also, what are the SmartCoils for?

[QBobWatson]

first I would go for a Thermochill 120.3pa rad over the Swiftech. Its a lot more expensive, but it can perform a few degrees better at a much lower noise level.


The ThermoChill doesn't seem to be in stock anywhere -- how are the Feser X-Changers?

You can possibly add a shroud, although performance game MAY not be noticeable.


It looks to me like the fins on the rad are recessed a bit from the fan screws, so I was thinking a shroud probably wouldn't be necessary. Honestly I'm more worried about noise -- I currently have a fan that's right up against a grill, and the weird airflow makes a slight buzzing noise.

One big thing you may not have noticed.. The Yate loon fans have CLOSED CORNERS, thus, long screws are needed for mounting them.


Good tip -- I've added long screws to my shopping list.

[QBobWatson]

Now sure If i get what you are going for. Maybe sketch it out? I would probably mount it off of the back, though. Top mounted rads, imo, are hideous and would ruin your case.

The mockup below should give you some idea what I'm going for. I was just going to attach rubber feet to the bottom of the radboxes. Does the placement of all the parts look right to you?

http://shadowfax.homelinux.net/~guru/mockup.jpg

[ziggo0]

that may not work so well with the pump pushing up through the res....

[QBobWatson]

that may not work so well with the pump pushing up through the res....

Whoops, looks like I got the input and output confused :) Thanks for pointing that out.

[phil178821]

Whoops, looks like I got the input and output confused :) Thanks for pointing that out.

I would probably mount it off the rear, however, on top will work well.

I am not too familiar with the fessers, however, NCIXUS should have the Thermochill.

Lay out looks good, just make sure the res is before pump inlet, which i think you noticed.

[QBobWatson]

Also, any advice on heatsinks for the VRAM and mosfets on my 4850?

[phil178821]

Also, any advice on heatsinks for the VRAM and mosfets on my 4850?

others will definitely be able to help you better on this but here is my two cents. Also, I have only had experience with Nvidia, no ATIs.

So gpu only blocks, like the mcw60, obviously need sinks like you asked for. I currently use the MC8800 swiftech sink kit. I also had to buy two shorter sinks since the tubing did not fit over the swiftech ones when connecting to the block.

I have heard though, the the fets, ram etc get much hotter on ATI cards and that a sink solution doesn't work well with them. I am not sure how true this is, but I would definitely look into it.

[QuietIce]

The layout looks good. The reversed pump was pointed out.

If you're comfortable just sitting the rad on top of the box then that's fine - just keep in mind the possible issues if it falls off. :eek:

IMO - Your choice of rad is fine. Yes, you can spend $100 more to get 1-2°C out of a "better" rad but few do it unless they're extremist's. ;)
Good call -- can you tell me where to buy thin-walled Tygon? All the Tygon I could find is 1/2" ID, 3/4" OD. Also, what are the SmartCoils for? McMaster-Carr is one of the best places to find great hardware and tubing: http://www.mcmaster.com/

Thin-walled Tygon is almost like jello when it's filled with water so the SmartCoils provide physical structure and support. Together you can make it do almost anything physically possible for tubing to do. Obviously a zero radius curve will kink but I've gotten thin-wall & coils down to a 1.5" radius. The coils are a pain to put on, which is why I don't suggest them for all the runs, but it's a great combination for short bends ... :)

[ziggo0]

MCMaster is like the best place ever...I ordered later at night, they had it on my door step damn near next day, and shipping was cheap.

[QBobWatson]

Tygon's spec sheet says the min radius for the thin-walled stuff is 2.5", as opposed to 1.5" for the 1/4" wall. Are they taking hits out of a tygon bong, or is that a reasonable value? Because if they're right then I think I'll just go for the thick-wall stuff. And in that case, performance-pcs.com has the tubing for $3.50/ft as opposed to $6.00/ft at mcmaster.

I think I'll go with the top-mounted PA120.3 because with the larger fins I bet it'll get decent passive convection radiating with one or two fans off. Also I can mount the pump with both the input and output horizontal, correct?

Thanks for all your help -- I'm about ready to place the order.

[Conumdrum]

Yes, the pump will be fine. You don't want to put it in a position where water won't flow into it freely when filling. Your pics is how 99% of the peeps mount it, including me.

I have Tygon 1/2 ID 3/4 OD. Making a bend from the NB to the CPU was too much. The hose didn't kink, but it put too much pressure on the NB, wouldn't seat properly. I had to buy copper bends etc and solder a 180 deg bend. Wasn't too hard to do. If the bends get too tight, Petras (I think) sells pre-bent tubing that works like a champ.

[QuietIce]

Tygon's spec sheet says the min radius for the thin-walled stuff is 2.5", as opposed to 1.5" for the 1/4" wall. Are they taking hits out of a tygon bong, or is that a reasonable value? Because if they're right then I think I'll just go for the thick-wall stuff. I've never seen the thick-walled bend that far without kinking. The thin-wall does kink much earlier that thick-walled, but that's the reason for the SmartCoils. It's hard to describe how it works if you haven't used it. Thick-walled kinks "hard", like bending metal, once it gives it really gives. Thin-walled is more like hard leather, it'll kink with less pressure because the walls collapse (they're not as stiff) but the SmartCoils keep that from happening. Like I said, it's hard to describe. I've used both of them a LOT and I never run thin-walled outside the case, but combined with SmartCoils it'll contort into bends you can only dream of with thick-walled tubing. But it's all up to you - I'm just relating my experience. There are two good ways to make turns without using barbed elbows so why add the extra resistance to your loop?


Copper works for me! :) I actually prefer copper now that I'm farther into water cooling. I seldom suggest it to a first timer because so many people have never used it and don't have the tools. At first the whole idea of putting copper inside the case just didn't feel right to me but I use it all the time now for T-lines and connectors. I just hate to see people using barbs for anything other than a block connection ...

[bldegle2]

maybe I am stating the obvious, you are adding an extension to the reservoir filler to get it above the highest 'water point' on your rig for bleeding/filling, right????

laterzzzz................

[QuietIce]

maybe I am stating the obvious, you are adding an extension to the reservoir filler to get it above the highest 'water point' on your rig for bleeding/filling, right????

laterzzzz................ ?????????

Are res's really THAT much different than T-lines ...???

[QBobWatson]

maybe I am stating the obvious, you are adding an extension to the reservoir filler to get it above the highest 'water point' on your rig for bleeding/filling, right????

laterzzzz................

I was actually going to ask at some point what is the procedure for filling/bleeding/leak testing... in particular, do I really need to have the res higher than everything else, or just higher than the pump?

[QuietIce]

Just higher than the pump.

Technically you only need to keep the water level in the res/T-line higher than the pump inlet while filing so gravity can prime the pump for you since these are not self-priming pumps ... ;)

[Conumdrum]

Quiet is right. Just higher than the pump. If you have a tube from the rad that goes down and back up to the res or fill tube, the air isn't going to get to the fill tube even if it's 30' higher than the highest point. Just an example.

[phil178821]

?????????

Are res's really THAT much different than T-lines ...???

i am reading just your post, so i maybe out of context.... but yes, depending on your setup.

i had a small case, with a cramped loop, meaning bleeding took ages. like 10 hrs + with constant case inverting..

now, with my swiftech mcres, and a better loop set up of course, i bleed substantially quicker..

[QuietIce]

i am reading just your post, so i maybe out of context.... but yes, depending on your setup.

i had a small case, with a cramped loop, meaning bleeding took ages. like 10 hrs + with constant case inverting..

now, with my swiftech mcres, and a better loop set up of course, i bleed substantially quicker.. Ya' that's out of context - but no worries!
I edited my post to include the quote I was referring to.


In comment to your experience, I've never had that problem with my T-lines. I've never used a res but I can fill large loops in 15-20 min. - smaller ones in 5-10. I mean, it does take time for all the micro-bubbles to bleed out but a res doesn't speed up that process if the T-line and loop are built right ... ;)

[phil178821]

Ya' that's out of context - but no worries!
I edited my post to include the quote I was referring to.


In comment to your experience, I've never had that problem with my T-lines. I've never used a res but I can fill large loops in 15-20 min. - smaller ones in 5-10. I mean, it does take time for all the micro-bubbles to bleed out but a res doesn't speed up that process if the T-line and loop are built right ... ;)

lol sry. i was playing gears of war 2 and thought i saw a quick pointer i could give..

yeah my old t-line was horrible. the case was too small, the loop was way too cramped. on top of that, the res was externally mounted off of the back (TC 120.3pa w/ shround and 6 yates). this meant repeatedly having to flip the case over to get all the air out, which was made more difficult cause i was using one of the flimsy plastic rad box to mount the behemoth, which is definitely too heavy for it. i admit, it definitely wasnt the best set up on my part. lol

[QBobWatson]

Thanks for everyone's input -- I've posted pictures of the resulting build in this thread (http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=596693).